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On February 24 2012 01:29 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:17 Doctorasul wrote:
If what you say is true, then why aren't you sending a scout earlier or why aren't you sending two scouts on a large map? If those are bad ideas, come up with your own, or are you saying it's simply impossible? You will be playing against someone who does not have the advantage of always playing one race, and that will show. The random's advantage is going to vanish in 2 minutes, leaving a gaping hole of experience with the particular race he happened to have spawed.
You also conveninently decided to ignore the uncomfortable question: If random is so strong, why are there no top pros playing random and doesn't that fact make your whining look even more desperate?
I'm sure I had a more respectful form of that question somewhere but I'm losing patience with the waves of crap and whining pouring over this thread like an unstoppable avalanche of stupidity. If you send two scouts, you put yourself behind early. Sometimes to an absurd amount. As a zerg player, I can tell you exactly why I hate playing against randoms: Your build is different depending on what race you're playing. If you hatch-first and your opponent turns out to be a protoss player who FFE'd and is now cannoning your expo, you are behind in a way you would not have been if your opponent had told you he was protoss. If you pool-first and your opponent turns out to be terran, you are behind in a way you would not have been had he told you he was terran. I'm not saying that a proper game is one where your build is executed with no hitches and then you play it out - people messing with your build is part of the game - but part of the game is that every time they try to mess with your build, you have the ability to stop them doing so. If they mess with your build before the game even starts, that's not a proper game. It's silly. The argument that somebody who plays random has an unfair disadvantage due to having less skill at their race and should therefore be allowed various other advantages is silly. If you are dissatisfied with your level of skill at the race you play, pick a race and improve at it, or play standard, tell your race at the start, and accept that you will probably get knocked down into a lower league. Or, even better, just roll a dice and pick your race before you queue.
I'm sorry to give a short reply to a post on which you probably spent a lot of time, but I just have to make the same point I've been making all over the thread: the fact is that after all advantages and disadvantages are taken into account, playing random is harder than picking a race. This is undeniably demonstrated by the low numbers of top random players.
Yes, you might have to come up with a different strategy vs R than vs any particular race. Keep in mind the best players in the world have decided against playing random, so a solution is out there, even without you knowing what he spawned. It's your job to find it.
You might feel at a disadvantage, you might feel you are entitled to know the race he spawed as, you might feel it's not a proper game or it's silly, but your feelings are simply wrong. You can choose to not play vs random if it's that disturbing to you, but your loss will be your fault alone.
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i don't really give a shit if the random player cheeses me, but i will echo what some other people have already posted: as a protoss player, i don't want to open gate first after scouting on pylon, and i don't want to worry about stupid shitty walloffs. i also have pretty much zero interest in 1-base pvz openers.
on bigger maps like tda, even 9 scouting i often fail to discover my opponents race before i have to decide on an opener. my opponent, meanwhile, has all this information, and is probably going to use it to 1-base me. this is why i leave or cheese every game against random.
personally, i don't think random should be an option for ladder race.
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Damn I haven't played Sc2 in quite a while, but reading all the butthurt comments about random players makes me wanna start again. 
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On February 24 2012 02:06 Jedclark wrote:
The reason I dislike playing random players is because you have to scout earlier, and can't really plan what build you're going to do until you scout them - which can be really annoying on some maps, i.e Entombed Valley.
This is particularly annoying PvZ where if you FFE, you have to place the 9 pylon in you natural as opposed to your main.
Yeah man hate that when you gotta scout and stuff. So annoying. Like - god at least allow me to get away with awful play. Its only fair.
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At masters lvl randoms dont cheese any more then any pick their race person, but I cheese them alot more
(also it sucks to not be able to practice your current build order of choice but basically forced to 1rax FE, etc. if you wanna play serious)
I am happy when randoms tell me their race, never had anyone lie about it, I would probably be amused depending how on tilt i was at that time.
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i don't hate random players..i respect them instead
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On February 24 2012 02:08 rycho wrote:
i don't really give a shit if the random player cheeses me, but i will echo what some other people have already posted: as a protoss player, i don't want to open gate first after scouting on pylon, and i don't want to worry about stupid shitty walloffs. i also have pretty much zero interest in 1-base pvz openers.
on bigger maps like tda, even 9 scouting i often fail to discover my opponents race before i have to decide on an opener. my opponent, meanwhile, has all this information, and is probably going to use it to 1-base me. this is why i leave or cheese every game against random.
personally, i don't think random should be an option for ladder race.
Dont want to worry about the other player? Maybe should play team games or Monobattles.
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On February 24 2012 02:07 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:17 Doctorasul wrote:On February 24 2012 01:02 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 24 2012 00:16 Doctorasul wrote:
Incomplete information is part of the game and if you don't adapt your play to reflect the amount of information you have then you are playing badly.. Except you're missing the point. Its not having "incomplete" information, its having NO information in your 1v1s (kinda different for team games because pretty much anything goes there). Literally the moment you start a normal game you at least know something about your opponent. I play Protoss, if my opponent is a Zerg I know he could be going 6,7,8-pool. He could be going hatchery first, 14-pool hatchery, 11-overpool. He could be aiming for fast two-base mutas, three base mutas, 7-roach rush, infestor broodlord. Theres TONS of possibilities and I know nothing about what my opponent is doing. I haven't seen him do anything at all yet. Hell, he hasn't actually done anything yet because we've just entered the game. However what I do know is that I'm not going to face a Marine/Marauder conc push. Or a proxy two-gate. Or fast banshees. Or two-base colossus. I know that I either have to wall in with Pylon/Gateway/Core or FFE because it'll keep lings out and I know that I CAN wall in in these two ways because my buildings aren't going to get sniped up a hill with marines at the bottom or hit by a gateway unit push. I also know that I can aim for a two-base colossus attack or HTs to defend against mutas and get archons for a push or any of a number of strategies. Against a random you literally can't even make those kind of judgements. The extent of your knowledge is "there is an opponent on this map". This forces a delay in build choice by up to several minutes if you scout your opponent last on a large map. That is a huge amount of time in which you can't actually properly select a build or decide how to place your buildings because literally anything in the game could be coming. The chance of a straight up build order loss is much, much higher. Not to mention the fact that a huge number of random players abuse this by cheesing or doing an early all-in that you can't prepare for properly. On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote:
I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing. No offence, but literally nobody is going to believe you if they've got any sense at all so you're wasting your time. Your intentions might be noble, but you're flat out not going to be believed by anyone with more than a few brain cells. I played against a random a while back who started the game with a "glhf" and then a couple of minutes complaining about how he was "zerg again" and how the system kept rolling him as zerg that day. I pylon-scouted (of course) and he was actually a Terran who went for a Marine/SCV all-in (of course). If what you say is true, then why aren't you sending a scout earlier or why aren't you sending two scouts on a large map? If those are bad ideas, come up with your own, or are you saying it's simply impossible? You will be playing against someone who does not have the advantage of always playing one race, and that will show. The random's advantage is going to vanish in 2 minutes, leaving a gaping hole of experience with the particular race he happened to have spawed. You also conveninently decided to ignore the uncomfortable question: If random is so strong, why are there no top pros playing random and doesn't that fact make your whining look even more desperate?I'm sure I had a more respectful form of that question somewhere but I'm losing patience with the waves of crap and whining pouring over this thread like an unstoppable avalanche of stupidity. I 9-pylon scout every game, every matchup; and on large maps if I don't find immediately then I tend to 13-gateway scout as well in the opposite direction. How much more scouting do you propose? Your argument of "but they have to play all different races so its HARD" is complete rubbish. Regardless of whether or not that it is more difficult to do the system is dynamic. Therefore regardless of how good or bad they are as a random player they will be matched up appropriately. Therefore their average ability across their three races will be comparable to your skill level on one race. It will NOT show in a match-up because the matchmaking system doesn't work like that. By definition the person playing against you is a similar skill level; they are approximately as good as you are, regardless of any lack of "experience" with a particular race. To illustrate: MMA is one of the best Terrans in the world. Lets say hypothetically MMA has NEVER played as Zerg. Ever. I don't know if this is true or not (I doubt it), but for the purposes of this example lets just say he's never played as Zerg. Now say MMA plays a game against me. Him as Zerg, me as Protoss. I've got a couple of hundred games experience as Protoss (I know, I know, I should play more). He has none as Zerg (in this example). What happens? I'd put money on him absolutely destroying me. Why doesn't my experience with Protoss win over his with Zerg? Simple: he's a much, much better player and he doesn't need any knowledge of Zerg beyond the absolute basics of "use injects, build stuff from larva at hatcheries, drones turn into buildings". And I'd guess that he could do the same to any player from Bronze to Mid-Masters regardless of how much experience they have with their race to his complete lack of experience with Zerg. That said you don't even have to go to extreme examples like a pro vs a random scrub like me. You can even see it between leagues. A Masters player playing a Gold player on an off-race will still probably win. A Platinum player playing a Bronze player on an off-race will similarly probably win. Thats not because they're suddenly good at the race, its because their fundamentals don't suck as much as those of the people they're playing against. Experience with a race means little when compared to skill and experience with the game generally. At the lower levels of the game experience with a race means basically nothing because everyone screws up so much and so badly. I random in 4v4s ("for the lulz") and no, my understanding of Zerg and Terran aren't as good as that of my understanding of Protoss. But I sure as hell don't blame a lack of experience with Zerg and Terran for any losses...its just because I suck at the game and my general mechanics and macro need to improve. I actually tend to win a lot in 4v4s. But again thats not because I'm amazing at any race I get given, its because my opponents suck even more than I do. Thats just the way it is at sub-high masters level, everyone's basic mechanics and macro suck. And actually this is all directly relevant to your question: why doesn't this happen at the highest level? Because at the highest levels this kind of experience DOES matter. When you have people whose macro and mechanics are pro-level then every little advantage counts. And having played 15,000 games as a Terran at that level means you're going to be much better with Terran than the other races when you've got the basics figured out. THATS why basically no pros play random. At the very highest levels knowing your race inside and out is a bigger edge than the psychological advantage of your opponent not knowing what you're playing as. However thats only valid at the very, very highest level. When you're talking about ladder, more specifically ladder at a Bronze to Mid-Masters level, experience with a race doesn't matter at all. If it did then people race switching should fall far further than they do when they switch. Your experience with your race means basically nothing at low levels. Therefore the lack of information is the bigger advantage because everyone, including you, suck at the game. Amongst pros there are numerous ways for them to gain an advantage and some advantages are worth more than others...because they have already got all of the basics down (almost?) perfectly. However the trick to winning on most of the ladder is to suck slightly less at the fundamental basics of this game than other people. In essence its down to the difference between sub-GM league play and actual professional play. One involves not sucking quite so bad as your opponent and the other involves actually out-thinking and out-playing them.
Nice post And that's why I can sleep at night playing random.
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People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats.
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On February 24 2012 02:08 Doctorasul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:29 Vega62a wrote:On February 24 2012 01:17 Doctorasul wrote:
If what you say is true, then why aren't you sending a scout earlier or why aren't you sending two scouts on a large map? If those are bad ideas, come up with your own, or are you saying it's simply impossible? You will be playing against someone who does not have the advantage of always playing one race, and that will show. The random's advantage is going to vanish in 2 minutes, leaving a gaping hole of experience with the particular race he happened to have spawed.
You also conveninently decided to ignore the uncomfortable question: If random is so strong, why are there no top pros playing random and doesn't that fact make your whining look even more desperate?
I'm sure I had a more respectful form of that question somewhere but I'm losing patience with the waves of crap and whining pouring over this thread like an unstoppable avalanche of stupidity. If you send two scouts, you put yourself behind early. Sometimes to an absurd amount. As a zerg player, I can tell you exactly why I hate playing against randoms: Your build is different depending on what race you're playing. If you hatch-first and your opponent turns out to be a protoss player who FFE'd and is now cannoning your expo, you are behind in a way you would not have been if your opponent had told you he was protoss. If you pool-first and your opponent turns out to be terran, you are behind in a way you would not have been had he told you he was terran. I'm not saying that a proper game is one where your build is executed with no hitches and then you play it out - people messing with your build is part of the game - but part of the game is that every time they try to mess with your build, you have the ability to stop them doing so. If they mess with your build before the game even starts, that's not a proper game. It's silly. The argument that somebody who plays random has an unfair disadvantage due to having less skill at their race and should therefore be allowed various other advantages is silly. If you are dissatisfied with your level of skill at the race you play, pick a race and improve at it, or play standard, tell your race at the start, and accept that you will probably get knocked down into a lower league. Or, even better, just roll a dice and pick your race before you queue. I'm sorry to give a short reply to a post on which you probably spent a lot of time, but I just have to make the same point I've been making all over the thread: the fact is that after all advantages and disadvantages are taken into account, playing random is harder than picking a race. This is undeniably demonstrated by the low numbers of top random players. Yes, you might have to come up with a different strategy vs R than vs any particular race. Keep in mind the best players in the world have decided against playing random, so a solution is out there, even without you knowing what he spawned. It's your job to find it. You might feel at a disadvantage, you might feel you are entitled to know the race he spawed as, you might feel it's not a proper game or it's silly, but your feelings are simply wrong. You can choose to not play vs random if it's that disturbing to you, but your loss will be your fault alone.
playing random isn't "harder" its just worse than spending your time all on one race. however, the ladder system accounts for that and will match up players it thinks have equal chances to win, so when it matches me against a random player i'll win about half the time, just like when it matches me against a protoss player. the difference is that playing against random is stupid, annoying, and not fun, because of the way the early game works.
since its such a small percentage of ladder games (especially in high masters) i'd rather leave than waste my time trying to develop my PvR.
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because random players are cheesing in every single game in ladder, maybe there are 2% of random players that play standard, but in never faced them......
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On February 24 2012 01:55 Doctorasul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 01:29 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 01:17 Doctorasul wrote:On February 24 2012 01:02 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 24 2012 00:16 Doctorasul wrote:
Incomplete information is part of the game and if you don't adapt your play to reflect the amount of information you have then you are playing badly.. Except you're missing the point. Its not having "incomplete" information, its having NO information in your 1v1s (kinda different for team games because pretty much anything goes there). Literally the moment you start a normal game you at least know something about your opponent. I play Protoss, if my opponent is a Zerg I know he could be going 6,7,8-pool. He could be going hatchery first, 14-pool hatchery, 11-overpool. He could be aiming for fast two-base mutas, three base mutas, 7-roach rush, infestor broodlord. Theres TONS of possibilities and I know nothing about what my opponent is doing. I haven't seen him do anything at all yet. Hell, he hasn't actually done anything yet because we've just entered the game. However what I do know is that I'm not going to face a Marine/Marauder conc push. Or a proxy two-gate. Or fast banshees. Or two-base colossus. I know that I either have to wall in with Pylon/Gateway/Core or FFE because it'll keep lings out and I know that I CAN wall in in these two ways because my buildings aren't going to get sniped up a hill with marines at the bottom or hit by a gateway unit push. I also know that I can aim for a two-base colossus attack or HTs to defend against mutas and get archons for a push or any of a number of strategies. Against a random you literally can't even make those kind of judgements. The extent of your knowledge is "there is an opponent on this map". This forces a delay in build choice by up to several minutes if you scout your opponent last on a large map. That is a huge amount of time in which you can't actually properly select a build or decide how to place your buildings because literally anything in the game could be coming. The chance of a straight up build order loss is much, much higher. Not to mention the fact that a huge number of random players abuse this by cheesing or doing an early all-in that you can't prepare for properly. On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote:
I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing. No offence, but literally nobody is going to believe you if they've got any sense at all so you're wasting your time. Your intentions might be noble, but you're flat out not going to be believed by anyone with more than a few brain cells. I played against a random a while back who started the game with a "glhf" and then a couple of minutes complaining about how he was "zerg again" and how the system kept rolling him as zerg that day. I pylon-scouted (of course) and he was actually a Terran who went for a Marine/SCV all-in (of course). You also conveninently decided to ignore the incomfortable question: If random is so strong, why are there no top pros playing random and doesn't that fact make your whining look even more desperate? Because randoms on ladder play for fun and don't mind (and I guess they love it, even) the coin-flippy side of playing Random. Pro-gamers have their livelihood on the line. You can't gamble on random and expect to always be at an advantage at the start of the game, but you most likely will be less experienced in a longer game. In this a risk worth taking? For random ladderers, yeah, sure, they just want to cheese some ladder points and have fun playing SC2. For pros? They play for money, but it's not the fucking casino. For example, RvT puts you not in that much of a good position, so a pro would not want to play random vs a strong Terran. Random ZvP is a blast, however, and would probably yield a very high winrate at pro level. You seem to be agreeing with me that playing random is actually a big disadvantage if you want to win. If you agree to that, then the tens of posts in this thread about the unfair advantages of randoms are incorrect, yes? RvT is harder than RvP - ok, that's probably correct. Overall however, the reason why players don't choose random in tournaments is because it will decrease their chances to win than if they had picked a race. Show nested quote +
Random is strong man, it's no use denying it. If you make MMA, DRG and MC play on a random account, this account will be strictly stronger and more fearsome than any of these players individually on their main race account.
This statement is demonstrably false. What is stopping them from choosing random? Are you saying they are not motivated enough to be "stronger and more fearsome "? How come no player of their caliber has chosen random and been consistently successful? If what you said were true, the top tier of the game would look a lot different than it does. Randoms are almost nowhere to be seen in the pro world. I suspect the reason random is perceived as strong is because none of the big, casted games are vs randoms. Everyone can copy a progamer's extremenly well refined PvZ build, but when it comes to PvR everyone is at a loss, since there are no tournament finals of PvR, so who can you copy? Pros have already figured out how to exploit the inherent weakness of random players, which is the reason randoms don't go anywhere in serious competitions. How many players here discovered for themselves the optimal build they are using in PvZ? I would say none, pretty much everyone copies big players. I'm sorry randoms are too weak to play vs the best players in the world, and I'm sorry that puts you in a position of having to work at creating a proper build for yourself, but you, racepicker, still have the advantage vs the random you are playing.
No I meant:
DRG, MMA, MC sitting at the same table playing on a common random account and switching seats according to the race they got. DRG playing only the Z part, MMA the T, MC the P.
I claim that this account is stronger than MC's pure P account (well, if we assume that the game is balanced and P is not completely overpowered :p)
I agree that playing Random overall is more difficult (if you don't plan to cheese every game, that is), learning-wise and mechanics-wise. But it does give you an unfair starting advantage in some matchups, like in ZvP (and a big one at that, no FFE bro). It's not contradictory for me.
Playing random is not optimal to consistently win tournaments. You can't win big money by being a one trick poney, so you have to be a solid player, and there is no denying that 3 races are more difficult to solidly master than only one.
However, on ladder you only have to win a single game against an opponent you likely won't play ever again. In certain situations, you have a very big unfair advantage (RZvP). In this situation, Random is very strong, probably too much.
A Random pro in the finals of a tournament against P cannot rely on drawing Z each game of a Bo7, he will have to know solid play in all vP matchups. The stakes are just not the same on ladder, man. But you still can take those ZvP freewins, which is what people in this thread complain about.
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On February 24 2012 02:10 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:08 rycho wrote:
i don't really give a shit if the random player cheeses me, but i will echo what some other people have already posted: as a protoss player, i don't want to open gate first after scouting on pylon, and i don't want to worry about stupid shitty walloffs. i also have pretty much zero interest in 1-base pvz openers.
on bigger maps like tda, even 9 scouting i often fail to discover my opponents race before i have to decide on an opener. my opponent, meanwhile, has all this information, and is probably going to use it to 1-base me. this is why i leave or cheese every game against random.
personally, i don't think random should be an option for ladder race. Dont want to worry about the other player? Maybe should play team games or Monobattles.
uh, you seem confused, because this is one of the dumbest motherfucking posts i've read in my entire life
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mainly because especially when playing against Z, if you open for T or P then you really have issues without the FFE. Mainly i hate them because they all, except for one that i have played all in blindly and its very annoying.
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I have never lost to a random player the last 3 seasons, then again, I don't play all that much so I rarely actually face random players, but I would say that those 3 seasons equal about 10 or 15 vsR games and I repeat, I have not ever lost vs random since last summer.
so I welcome random players, they are shitty with all races instead of good with 1 race, thus I pretty much always win because I play safe.
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On February 24 2012 02:12 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:07 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 24 2012 01:17 Doctorasul wrote:On February 24 2012 01:02 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 24 2012 00:16 Doctorasul wrote:
Incomplete information is part of the game and if you don't adapt your play to reflect the amount of information you have then you are playing badly.. Except you're missing the point. Its not having "incomplete" information, its having NO information in your 1v1s (kinda different for team games because pretty much anything goes there). Literally the moment you start a normal game you at least know something about your opponent. I play Protoss, if my opponent is a Zerg I know he could be going 6,7,8-pool. He could be going hatchery first, 14-pool hatchery, 11-overpool. He could be aiming for fast two-base mutas, three base mutas, 7-roach rush, infestor broodlord. Theres TONS of possibilities and I know nothing about what my opponent is doing. I haven't seen him do anything at all yet. Hell, he hasn't actually done anything yet because we've just entered the game. However what I do know is that I'm not going to face a Marine/Marauder conc push. Or a proxy two-gate. Or fast banshees. Or two-base colossus. I know that I either have to wall in with Pylon/Gateway/Core or FFE because it'll keep lings out and I know that I CAN wall in in these two ways because my buildings aren't going to get sniped up a hill with marines at the bottom or hit by a gateway unit push. I also know that I can aim for a two-base colossus attack or HTs to defend against mutas and get archons for a push or any of a number of strategies. Against a random you literally can't even make those kind of judgements. The extent of your knowledge is "there is an opponent on this map". This forces a delay in build choice by up to several minutes if you scout your opponent last on a large map. That is a huge amount of time in which you can't actually properly select a build or decide how to place your buildings because literally anything in the game could be coming. The chance of a straight up build order loss is much, much higher. Not to mention the fact that a huge number of random players abuse this by cheesing or doing an early all-in that you can't prepare for properly. On February 24 2012 00:39 TheV wrote:
I have 2 accounts, one where I play Zerg and another where I play random.
The first thing I do when the game starts is say gl, hf, <race>.
So the other guy knows what race I am and doesn't BM/gives excuses for losing. No offence, but literally nobody is going to believe you if they've got any sense at all so you're wasting your time. Your intentions might be noble, but you're flat out not going to be believed by anyone with more than a few brain cells. I played against a random a while back who started the game with a "glhf" and then a couple of minutes complaining about how he was "zerg again" and how the system kept rolling him as zerg that day. I pylon-scouted (of course) and he was actually a Terran who went for a Marine/SCV all-in (of course). If what you say is true, then why aren't you sending a scout earlier or why aren't you sending two scouts on a large map? If those are bad ideas, come up with your own, or are you saying it's simply impossible? You will be playing against someone who does not have the advantage of always playing one race, and that will show. The random's advantage is going to vanish in 2 minutes, leaving a gaping hole of experience with the particular race he happened to have spawed. You also conveninently decided to ignore the uncomfortable question: If random is so strong, why are there no top pros playing random and doesn't that fact make your whining look even more desperate?I'm sure I had a more respectful form of that question somewhere but I'm losing patience with the waves of crap and whining pouring over this thread like an unstoppable avalanche of stupidity. I 9-pylon scout every game, every matchup; and on large maps if I don't find immediately then I tend to 13-gateway scout as well in the opposite direction. How much more scouting do you propose? Your argument of "but they have to play all different races so its HARD" is complete rubbish. Regardless of whether or not that it is more difficult to do the system is dynamic. Therefore regardless of how good or bad they are as a random player they will be matched up appropriately. Therefore their average ability across their three races will be comparable to your skill level on one race. It will NOT show in a match-up because the matchmaking system doesn't work like that. By definition the person playing against you is a similar skill level; they are approximately as good as you are, regardless of any lack of "experience" with a particular race. To illustrate: MMA is one of the best Terrans in the world. Lets say hypothetically MMA has NEVER played as Zerg. Ever. I don't know if this is true or not (I doubt it), but for the purposes of this example lets just say he's never played as Zerg. Now say MMA plays a game against me. Him as Zerg, me as Protoss. I've got a couple of hundred games experience as Protoss (I know, I know, I should play more). He has none as Zerg (in this example). What happens? I'd put money on him absolutely destroying me. Why doesn't my experience with Protoss win over his with Zerg? Simple: he's a much, much better player and he doesn't need any knowledge of Zerg beyond the absolute basics of "use injects, build stuff from larva at hatcheries, drones turn into buildings". And I'd guess that he could do the same to any player from Bronze to Mid-Masters regardless of how much experience they have with their race to his complete lack of experience with Zerg. That said you don't even have to go to extreme examples like a pro vs a random scrub like me. You can even see it between leagues. A Masters player playing a Gold player on an off-race will still probably win. A Platinum player playing a Bronze player on an off-race will similarly probably win. Thats not because they're suddenly good at the race, its because their fundamentals don't suck as much as those of the people they're playing against. Experience with a race means little when compared to skill and experience with the game generally. At the lower levels of the game experience with a race means basically nothing because everyone screws up so much and so badly. I random in 4v4s ("for the lulz") and no, my understanding of Zerg and Terran aren't as good as that of my understanding of Protoss. But I sure as hell don't blame a lack of experience with Zerg and Terran for any losses...its just because I suck at the game and my general mechanics and macro need to improve. I actually tend to win a lot in 4v4s. But again thats not because I'm amazing at any race I get given, its because my opponents suck even more than I do. Thats just the way it is at sub-high masters level, everyone's basic mechanics and macro suck. And actually this is all directly relevant to your question: why doesn't this happen at the highest level? Because at the highest levels this kind of experience DOES matter. When you have people whose macro and mechanics are pro-level then every little advantage counts. And having played 15,000 games as a Terran at that level means you're going to be much better with Terran than the other races when you've got the basics figured out. THATS why basically no pros play random. At the very highest levels knowing your race inside and out is a bigger edge than the psychological advantage of your opponent not knowing what you're playing as. However thats only valid at the very, very highest level. When you're talking about ladder, more specifically ladder at a Bronze to Mid-Masters level, experience with a race doesn't matter at all. If it did then people race switching should fall far further than they do when they switch. Your experience with your race means basically nothing at low levels. Therefore the lack of information is the bigger advantage because everyone, including you, suck at the game. Amongst pros there are numerous ways for them to gain an advantage and some advantages are worth more than others...because they have already got all of the basics down (almost?) perfectly. However the trick to winning on most of the ladder is to suck slightly less at the fundamental basics of this game than other people. In essence its down to the difference between sub-GM league play and actual professional play. One involves not sucking quite so bad as your opponent and the other involves actually out-thinking and out-playing them. Nice post And that's why I can sleep at night playing random.
Yah - I see what he's saying. Reason Random is better is simply we have better all-around mechanics. Thanks dude!
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On February 24 2012 02:18 Roblin wrote:
I have never lost to a random player the last 3 seasons, then again, I don't play all that much so I rarely actually face random players, but I would say that those 3 seasons equal about 10 or 15 vsR games and I repeat, I have not ever lost vs random since last summer.
so I welcome random players, they are shitty with all races instead of good with 1 race, thus I pretty much always win because I play safe.
So youve never lost, or you pretty much have never lost. Which one hotshot.
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One of the big problems with playing against a Random player is the lack of information that we're used to having at the beginning of the game. For a Zerg player, this can be quite problematic because a 15h is usually viable against Terran, risky versus Zerg and game-ending for Protoss. However, opening 14/14 can put you behind in economy if your Protoss opponent opens with an FFE or a confident Z opens up 15h. Also, 14/14 puts you in a weird position vs. 2-rax/bunker pressure because creep is nonexistent in the natural until later, meaning a spine crawler isn't an option.
All in all, it sucks to play against a random player because you have to forego your economy just to figure out who you're up against.
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so if PvR is broken, why don't blizzard fix it?
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EPT
