What do you guys think about the Raven Caster of the terran army? In my opinion its the most boring unit in the game and its a shame blizzard doesnt change anything about it. A Tier 3 Caster for the Terrans should have more potential.
Auto turret is pretty much useless for 50 energy way too weak and noone uses it in competitive matches.
Defense Drone has only really two purposes: in TvT big viking battles and 1-1-1 against Protoss. In all the other circumstances i dont see any real use in it.
Hunter Seeker Missle: This spell was really imba in beta, in TvZ u only needed Bio+Mass Raven. But nowadays the spell is totaly useless, 125 energy is way too much and the biggest problem is range _6_. If u cast it in the range of the opponent the chance is nearly 100% the raven dies too. And btw why would you evere need HSM, tanks do splashdmg aswell and are way more reliant.
Do you share my opinion or am i wrong? I hope Blizzard changes the unit a bit before HotS, for example a auto turret buff and range 7-8 for HSM, but i guess we wont see any big changes like this before hots comes out , sad!
Ravens do in fact have a lot of utility late game. However the problem is that because most of these situations occur in the lategame and so we don't see them very often.
Personally I think they're a very nice and interesting unit that adds a lot to games where it appears.
However I would say that feedback causes them to be useless in TvP beyond the 111, but hey thats just how the game works at them moment.
If you were capable of getting into an enemy base and dropping a turret or two AND get away possibly without literally anything that can fly killing it and most things that shoot up being able to catch up to and kill it too-
If you were able to send it forward in battle with the chance of casting a turret or seeker missile without basically assuring that if a PDD isnt present you're going to lose the raven-
I think a slight range increase for the attack cast MIGHT help, but really I would much rather the thing just move more quickly, and i think faster movement and acceleration make it a better micro unit than letting it stay way in the back and cast like a viking and making it more of a long range seige colossus-esque boring thing.
Still the worst caster unit but its not useless because of its spells, more than its cost its insane and to make turrets effective you need about 3 different upgrades.
Roll all the upgrades into one (HSM + turrets duration, but not energy obviously), make PDD work against broodlings again and you'd have a pretty good unit.
Late game mass HSM is pretty boss, its just not so scary as other casters which is a shame, infestors and HT make you tread carefully, Raven doesn't have that effect yet its the most expensive of them all
i wish auto turret would cost only 25 energy and hsm would have a range of 8, range 6 is really retarded, u cant even hit hsm on a marineball without losing raven instantly.
Can you explain why? I dont see the raven often be used in pro matches, never autoturret and only PDD for the purposes i wrote. Thats a little bit slim imo :/.
We dont see it used in games because people are too busy with other things, look at collosus drop... Its really good or sentry drop it is too... But we rarely see it. Raven is the same thing. We only saw collosus-sentry drop once the protoss had to look for better strat... Same thing will happen if terran start to lose...
In TvP Raven lategame is going to get many uses, autoturret are really strong once you throw 1-2 behind a mineral line... You need like 2-3 zealot to kill them. PDD is excellent in late late game deathball vs deathball, you can easily snipe 2 collosus before the stalker can do something to your viking.
HSM is really strong but rarely used. I see it more like a Suicide Bomber spell. You throw your raven in the enemy and hope he reach 6 ranges (Which is kinda easy) and lose the raven for a big aoe damage. I see its uses against Mutalisks (3 range vs 6...) and other units, but like I said, people are too busy with other things to bother trying it.
The upgrade for longer PDD time and longer turret time will be a big factor in 2-5 years imo. No need to change it... just need to use it.
Its very situational. you can't just plug it into a unit comp and call it a day. you need to use it in combination with something else or make a specific thing for it.
raven first 2 port bansee is an epic troll build you literaly can't make enough queens and it will cost so many spores to kill.
PDD Works against stalkers, for me, it's enough against a protoss army. Plus you seem to avoid the fact of HSM working V/S Air units, using it against stacked broodlords it's quite interesting. I've seen Auto turret been deployed on pro-matches lately, it helps "taking" opponent spaces in early game, in TvT you could use them early game to make your opponent avoid building structures in the range AT attack radius.
The only issue raven has is that it's very situational
In TvP Raven lategame is going to get many uses, autoturret are really strong once you throw 1-2 behind a mineral line... You need like 2-3 zealot to kill them. PDD is excellent in late late game deathball vs deathball, you can easily snipe 2 collosus before the stalker can do something to your viking.
No, ravens will never work TvP, feedback RAPES them.
Increase it's movement speed so it isnt as easy to snipe, it should be very useful vs Protoss and Zerg for it's detection - not having to use 5+ scans to eliminate creep while moving in vs a zerg isnt worth it?
Ravens are really really powerful along with ghosts in late game TvZ on maps where you can split the map. Though since it's gas heavy and you need vikings in the late game it might be hard to get. However HSM on the zerg air will do a TON of damage besides from that spamming PDD will give you a huge advantage in the air to air fight.
Jinro is right, in tvp u can forget raven after 1-1-1, feedback> everything raven does :D. ANd in TvZ lategame... well ghosts do a better job for their gas cost imo!
I have seen auto turret used in a TvT early game to soak up fire from enemy units. Its effectively lessens considerably when there are more units out there. As for PDD, I've seen it used against stalkers/marauders/vikings.
Hunter seeker missile needs work. Expensive useless crap of a spell.
In TvP Raven lategame is going to get many uses, autoturret are really strong once you throw 1-2 behind a mineral line... You need like 2-3 zealot to kill them. PDD is excellent in late late game deathball vs deathball, you can easily snipe 2 collosus before the stalker can do something to your viking.
No, ravens will never work TvP, feedback RAPES them.
i wouldn't say never. I think it MIGHT be worth it to have 1-2 to set up PDD to effectively zone an area or prepare a battle if you can.
But yeah, to bring INTO battle and hope to use...icky.
agree with jinro mostly, dont bring raven straight into battle.
there are so many games where i have built a raven and just sat it behind a base and autoturret every 2 mins or so. in all of those games i've gotten 20 worker kills and sometimes upwards of 60 worker kills against gateway/robo toss even if the toss makes a stargate to make phoenixes he just invested more gas into making that . raven is also necessary against zerg due to burrow banelings autowinning if they get a hit off or burrowed roaches getting into your tank line or creep tumors. if they build a cannon, PDD covers for that. if they build a spine, put the autoturret somewhat further away and take out a extractor, it's energy based anyway.
1) In TvT they are made early on against cloaked banshee openings (raven + vikings shuts down cloaked banshee). While in this case the raven is primarily used as a mobile caster, auto turrets can actually be super important in early game skirmishes (typically marine/helion v. marine/helion) battles.
2) In TvT ravens are a huge part of playing mech v. bio, since PDD is so good against marauders (mech army is much more vulnerable without PDD if caught unsieged).
3) In TvT when playing bio v. mech, PDD can be used to get a drop successfully into a base that is heavily defended by turrets. I have seen this very occasionally used in pro games.
I don't think it's "the most boring unit in the game" -- particularly, in TvT they are already used in a variety of different situations. I think it just needs to be explored more (e.g. In TvZ, PDD to protect tanks from mutas, and mobile detection to save scans. In TvZ or TvP using auto-turret walls to block off zealots or zerglings, or just using auto turrets to get the zealots to waste their charge ability.)
I will agree that HSM seems like an ability that needs to be tweaked or replaced by something more interesting. If HSM were buffed a little bit too much it could easily become imbalanced.
Edit: Jinro is right about raven in TvP -- feedback can not only kill it instantly but can also destroy your PDDs if you manage to cast them (or cast them in advance).
In TvP Raven lategame is going to get many uses, autoturret are really strong once you throw 1-2 behind a mineral line... You need like 2-3 zealot to kill them. PDD is excellent in late late game deathball vs deathball, you can easily snipe 2 collosus before the stalker can do something to your viking.
No, ravens will never work TvP, feedback RAPES them.
feedback should also rape infestors, yet they are used against protoss
Just watch some of EG training!! Demu was using it and like Jinro said its SO FKN BROKEN late game lmao, ben was rolling Ret with it? (think was Ret apologises if wasn't) and used it in TvT vs someone can't remember and he would just destroy 200/200 armys for fun with 2/3 ravens with his mech army! Its sooo good!
However i beleive vs Z in most of the game pre half map vs half map its pretty hard to get into ur unit compo. But when u got HSM itsdestroys Muti balls for fun and can even waste on banes if no muti.
Yeah, because that's exactly what Terran needs, another "standard" unit to play the game. Reapers and Ravens and Banshees are pretty much the only units that are not standalone massable units in the terran arsenal, no other race has so many units that work so well on their own already. I'd rather have more units for Terran like the Raven, that has its nieche roles.
Seriously, mass Ravens in the superlategame is already one of the most potent TvT and TvZ compositions, as shown in various matches. If anything has to be changed, they should cut the Ravens offensive abilities (Autoturret, HSM) and give it more protective strenghts like the PDD and the detection.
In TvP Raven lategame is going to get many uses, autoturret are really strong once you throw 1-2 behind a mineral line... You need like 2-3 zealot to kill them. PDD is excellent in late late game deathball vs deathball, you can easily snipe 2 collosus before the stalker can do something to your viking.
No, ravens will never work TvP, feedback RAPES them.
i wouldn't say never. I think it MIGHT be worth it to have 1-2 to set up PDD to effectively zone an area or prepare a battle if you can.
But yeah, to bring INTO battle and hope to use...icky.
The problem is just that PDD can be feedbacked as well.
Ravens are already great in TvT... I don't think HSM needs to be buffed honestly - as Jinro said it's already really strong in the lategame vs. both T and Z.
I'm sad that terrans still don't use ravens for detection in TvZ. Perhaps a slight buff to health and acceleration/movement speed would help out, since it's currently quite vulnerable to mutas?
EDIT: Buffing the raven would of course make them even more dangerous in large numbers in lategame. Perhaps nerfing some of it's offensive abilities while making it easier to keep alive?
As Jinro said, they are borderline OP (in my experience) late-game TvZ. I've seen Terrans turtle up on 2-3 bases with hellions and siege tanks and get mass raven late-game and completely dominate with HSM. Of course, this was when I was in gold league, but even if I met that now it would be a problem to deal with if I let the game go that late.
On February 11 2012 01:15 Obbalord wrote: Can you explain why? I dont see the raven often be used in pro matches, never autoturret and only PDD for the purposes i wrote. Thats a little bit slim imo :/.
Broodlords can't dodge HSM and they stack. That's pretty damn good.
HSM is actually really good late, late, late game TvZ when you open mech. I can't believe people are actually saying HSM is bad l0l. I wouldn't make them in TvP though, feedback crushes them and ghosts are a usually better transition in TvZ if you open bio or bio-mech.
They're also incredibly useful in TvT for meching terrans. PDD + Tanks > marauders.
Also the tech lab requirement on a starport discourages raven play. Often its just too much time / apm it takes for a player to switch his reactor starport to tech lab and back for a unit that may help - or just end up beeing -100 / 200
Ravens are severely underused, I think. Especially vs zerg. PDDs can block ridiculous amounts of damage.
In fact, I'd be interested in seeing if its possible to hit a banshee/Raven timing that comes before lair for Zerg. PDD would be able to protect a couple banshees for a long time against just queens/spore crawlers.
In fact, the only thing zerg has that can hit Terran air protected by PDD is the infestor, with infested Terrans or fungals.
Wait...I'm just a bit confused. I've yet to see mass raven in lategame TvZ, so I'm trying to figure out what exactly the strength of this is. When PDD used to stop Brood Lord shots, that was one thing, but what can ravens do that ghosts can't for half the gas cost? If someone could link a VoD of them being used effectively in high level play, I would greatly appreciate it, I'm really curious now.
TvT though they're bloody amazing in a lot of different places, that have already been mentioned -- they are *essential* in mech vs. marauder, and quite useful in the massive lategame air battles.
On February 11 2012 01:14 Liquid`Jinro wrote: You are insane, the raven is one of terrans top 5 units. It has insane utility and is absolutely key whenever you play mech TvT.
Yes, HSM needs some kind of buff still.
Super late game mass raven is borderline broken vs T and Z already, however.
You only came to that conclusion because of mech TvT. What about ravens compared to other casters? What about their high cost? What about ravens in other match ups? The raven is NOT a top 5 terran unit.
mass raven isnt a problem in either tvt and tvz this forum is getting hilarious. Mass raven only way to break lategame turtle of terran and carefull ghost usage can easely stop that, same for tvz with neural and fungal n shit.
On February 11 2012 02:06 ArcticFox wrote: Wait...I'm just a bit confused. I've yet to see mass raven in lategame TvZ, so I'm trying to figure out what exactly the strength of this is. When PDD used to stop Brood Lord shots, that was one thing, but what can ravens do that ghosts can't for half the gas cost? If someone could link a VoD of them being used effectively in high level play, I would greatly appreciate it, I'm really curious now.
TvT though they're bloody amazing in a lot of different places, that have already been mentioned -- they are *essential* in mech vs. marauder, and quite useful in the massive lategame air battles.
This one is a simple example. Demuslim use mech + lategame mass ravens quite often in the EG practice games. Check it out.
They need to make it more solid and less awesome basically. HSM is just to gimmicky, if it connects it hurts the opponent a lot, but it's way to risky to tech to it, since if your opponent spots you going for it before lategame, he can pretty much always just go allin.
I feel that the auto turret is laughable spell design. Compare it to infested terrans... Infested terrans cost less energy, they have crazy burst DPS and you can cast them anywhere you want most of the time.
Auto turret cost 50 energy, very low DPS, and the MOST sad thing is they kinda count as buildings and you need to deploy them in a specific spot, which makes it fucking hard to spam auto turrets like you would spam infested terrans.
Think about it for a sec, you often see 3-4 burrowed infestors throw 20+ infested terrans to snipe CC/nexus/hatch. Why? Because all you have to do is hold T and spam click around the spot you want the infested terrans to spawn.
Try to snipe a nexus with auto turrets. First they are a pain just to cast because you have to make them fit in the terrain and they cant be casted on top of eachothers. They are the size of a supply depot I think? you can barely fit them close to mineral, let alone if there are cannons or simply some workers around preventing you from landing the turrets.
So basicly what I'm saying is in order to make the auto turrets viable, they need to make it a lot more like the infested terrans. Easily spammable around an expansion, high dps burst and lower duration and energy cost.
On February 11 2012 02:19 Sergio1992 wrote: Question : does pdd work with marine bullets?
Nope, only missile attacks (muta, marauder, stalker).
Anyway, I think that ravens have their potential and very interesting. But they tend to be very VERY difficult to use.
What I mean is, they are sort of like middle ground; they seem to be harassment based, since they can effectively stop mining for a long-ass time with the auto-turret. However, they have great engagement abilities, such as PDD and HSM. BUT, they are flimsy as hell, and their abilities force them into battle.
Not only that, but if you do use them to harass, they are different from all other flying harassment units: they do not attack directly, but instead use abilities to do damage. Yet they are really slow, unlike mutas for instance, so getting them out of position can be DEVASTATING. They aren't very good at taking out buildings, like void rays... they appear to be support units, but in great enough numbers they can work alone, for the most part. However, even as support they don't seem to have any kind of 'thing' they are supposed to counter. They are alright in every role, I guess; support, harass, and mass. And late game, they can either be a wrecking ball, or completely fail, depending on your ability with them and your opponents decisions.
I don't know. Very interesting and unique unit, can't wait to see them to used in new and interesting ways.
There's no point to this thread. It's like asking what do you think about grass or light or solar flares? Who cares what you think about them? They exist the way they exist.
EPT
, sad!
