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Please note that I'm not trying to flame anyone. I hope you can do the same.
I replied to this image in the Funny pictures thread:
![[image loading]](http://www.mopo.ca/uploaded_images/mac-pc-motorcycle-777073.jpg)
With this: (Spoilered)
In response:
+ Show Spoiler +This is Skyrim on a PC: ![[image loading]](http://www.comicsbulletin.com/main/sites/default/files/ammo/images/110802/SkyrimZombie.jpg) This is Skyrim on a Mac: This is an HD6870: ![[image loading]](http://www.theitwares.com/images/Sapphire_6870_1.jpg) ...I can make a picture of the one in my Mac. If you want. Or you can take my word for it. Also, I'm going to be turning my Mac from a quad core to an 8-core. It's from 2007. I guess a Mac, then, is this: ![[image loading]](http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/images/12/2009/06/ariel_atom_500_jalopnik-topshot.jpg) Doesn't fall over when you stop. Doesn't kill you in the rain. Does odd things to Jeremy Clarkson's face: ![[image loading]](http://gifninja.com/animatedgifs/382143/jeremy-clarkson-in-areil-atom-v8.gif) Oh, you get the picture...
Obviously, whenever anyone mentions Apple in any way, a discussion must commence (I am guilty of this as well). Since I didn't want to completely derail the Funny pictures thread, I made another here. To get the ball rolling, I will be answering some of the replies I got:
So what your saying is you bought a overpriced piece of hardware and spent more money on turning it into a PC.
Real sensible thing to do with your money gotta say.
I spent quite a lot on the computer, yes. 850 euros in total, discarding the SSD and HDD's I put in there. That's for two processors (two cores each, four cores total), 9 GB's of FB-DDR (You probably don't know what that is  ), an HD6870, etc. I could have probably gotten a nice Dell instead for the same price...
![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11612892/Screen%20Shot%202012-02-03%20at%205.49.42%20PM.png)
Well, that's not quite an HD6870. The processor is faster and the memory is, though. I'll bet I get more FPS than that machine with ease.
Or I could build by own. Did that. Last time I had a Q6600, 8800GT (later HD4870), an SSD at the same time as the HD4870, etc. I can build my own. I didn't, and I chose not to. You see, I could have gotten more performance, but I'd have to build it, I'd have to find and install the drivers for, well, everything, I'd have to get an add-on board since I need Firewire, I'd have to settle for a plastic case that's either too hot or too loud and so on.
It's not that I dislike that option - again, I did so in the past - but I'm not losing much performance with this route and I get a really nice case (it's about 45 pounds of aluminium with contents), all the ports and connectors I want and need, I get to run an operating system that I like, and I still get to play Skyrim at max, at whatever FPS since I didn't even bother to check. My system is not, for the only purpose where it matters (games) slow. And to be honest it's not expensive either.
I'm not sure how posting the same picture twice proves anything. Or how a screenshot comparison proves that the performance is the same.
It doesn't. It's one of those "This is your mind; this is your mind on drugs" references you see scattered on the Internet. Again, I play Skyrim at very high settings on my computer.
The funny thing is mac fanboys think that we think their hadware is crap when really we are laughing at them for paying triple the amount we pay for the same hardware and a different OS (one that can be installed on any PC btw)
First bit: Triple the amount, huh? I'm going to see if I can make a reasonably fair comparison (using Apple and some other computer retailer with the same parts or equivalent ones), but that's going to take a bit of time.
Meanwhile, yes, I know about Hackintoshes. The machine I mentioned earlier was one after a while. It was a pain. First, it couldn't sleep, which I guess is alright if you're used to shutting down every day, but I have uptimes of 30 days on my notebook, I'm not about to wait for my SSD to load the OS every day. Second, it was driver hell. It took me weeks to get the damn OS to run (mostly because I had a rather rare motherboard which I ended up replacing) and second: You never know whether an OS update is going to break your machine or not.
Anyway, enough for now.
Reading this: I'm not attacking anyone up there. I've not said PC's are crap, and I didn't mention hating Windows. Show the same respect, please.
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People are just trolling you. Similar hardware = similar performance.
I have an iPhone, and people keep telling me how shit it is, but are always unable to reply to the question "why do you think so?". Ihve tried several and the iPhone trumps them all so go figure.
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On February 04 2012 02:04 exnomendei wrote:
Or I could build by own. Did that. Last time I had a Q6600, 8800GT (later HD4870), an SSD at the same time as the HD4870, etc. I can build my own. I didn't, and I chose not to. You see, I could have gotten more performance, but I'd have to build it, I'd have to find and install the drivers for, well, everything, I'd have to get an add-on board since I need Firewire, I'd have to settle for a plastic case that's either too hot or too loud and so on.
I'm not really sure how your inability to build a computer helps you in this discussion at all. If anything, it's just going to further people's belief that Macs aren't for people who know anything about computers.
I just built my own, I paid significantly less than the 850, and it's equal or better than your current machine in ever regard.
Also, comparing to Alienware is a strawman. Alienware is the Apple of the PC world, you're paying a lot for the Alienware name and the shiny alien lights you get on your computer.
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Comparing with Alienware is not really fair now is it (if you look at prices)? I think the point for many people is, if they build a pc and assemble it themselves they can get at least equal performance as that of a mac for less money.
Either way it's a troll picture. What is it exactly that you want to discuss? Mac vs Pc prices?
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On February 04 2012 02:11 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 02:04 exnomendei wrote:
Or I could build by own. Did that. Last time I had a Q6600, 8800GT (later HD4870), an SSD at the same time as the HD4870, etc. I can build my own. I didn't, and I chose not to. You see, I could have gotten more performance, but I'd have to build it, I'd have to find and install the drivers for, well, everything, I'd have to get an add-on board since I need Firewire, I'd have to settle for a plastic case that's either too hot or too loud and so on.
I'm not really sure how your inability to build a computer helps you in this discussion at all. If anything, it's just going to further people's belief that Macs aren't for people who know anything about computers. I just built my own, I paid significantly less than the 850, and it's equal or better than your current machine in ever regard. Also, comparing to Alienware is a strawman. Alienware is the Apple of the PC world, you're paying a lot for the Alienware name and the shiny alien lights you get on your computer.
Read it again. I can build my own. I did. I chose not to because I was annoyed by the issues of it, at least this time.
Tell me, what are the specifications of your computer? I'd prefer to also get the cost of each component. (I've no doubt the CPU and memory are faster, by the way, it's a 2007 computer. My notebook's memory is faster (although it has 4 GB of it).)
I'm also willing to bet I know more about computers than 90% of TL.
On February 04 2012 02:13 Glowbox wrote:
Comparing with Alienware is not really fair now is it (if you look at prices)? I think the point for many people is, if they build a pc and assemble it themselves they can get at least equal performance as that of a mac for less money.
Either way it's a troll picture. What is it exactly that you want to discuss? Mac vs Pc prices?
Not sure what you mean by looking at prices, but that's not your point.
Yes, people can build a faster computer for less money themselves. If you build your own car from components, it costs less money than an equivalent one as well. There's also the time factor involved. (and in the car's example, skill too, but that's moot with computers.) The thing is, this should surprise no-one: Labor costs money. Testing configurations costs money. Warranties cost money. Of course you can higher performance-per-dollar from a self-built computer than from a Mac! I'm not going to say you can't.
Figures like thrice-the-price are bullshit, though. I'd explain it, but I tried and it was a bad, ugly rant. I did that before and it was a lot of back-and-forth about processors clocking lower at idle and I don't want to get into that.
Anyway, point is: Yes, Macs are more expensive than building yourself, but there's nothing wrong with that.
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On February 04 2012 02:10 Catch]22 wrote:
People are just trolling you. Similar hardware = similar performance.
I have an iPhone, and people keep telling me how shit it is, but are always unable to reply to the question "why do you think so?". Ihve tried several and the iPhone trumps them all so go figure.
I can easely answer that. The licence agreement that you accept it beond stupid.
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I might be wrong, but in the OP the pictures listed as skyrim run on a pc and run on a mac are the exact same file. I understand why you are doing it, but it'd still be nice if it was a little more honest.
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I got an imac cause it's pretty ;-) I have no idea why people who i don't even know should have an opinion on how much i spend on my computer...
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On February 04 2012 02:14 exnomendei wrote:
I'm also willing to bet I know more about computers than 90% of TL.
Somehow I'm thinking that the OP wasn't serious when he said this thread isn't a flame fest...
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And you prove your point by comparing it to alienware, which is notorious for being expensive as hell. You see where this is already falling apart, don't you?
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Meh, I think the whole "mac vs pc" debacle, in most forms, is just complete nonsense. People want to validate their point of view and what they personally have/use. It's a lot like console fanboying. Although you generally see a lot more striking out against mac here on TL/the internet in general, I assure you, there will be no winners in this conflict, just like with any other imaginary war on the internet.
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You pay more with Macs but it's worth it. It's like spending a little extra for nice toilet paper, it may have the same amount of paper, but the overall experience is so much more pleasant.
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Building PCs is so fun though. It's too bad that you once built PCs and then stopped doing so because you didn't like to do it, but that doesn't mean Alienware is the only choice for PCs.
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most of us (mac users) we pay for the os, and i want to build a hackintosh and try how it compares, but if you use it for work, you cant have driver problems, or any tipe of problems, osx is very reliable.
related to gaming, the problem isnt the hardware or the os, the problem is that gaming companies (most of them) dont program for mac, and thats why you see a diference, if you take blizzard games for example, that are programed for mac, you wont see much diference (given same hardware)
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i fail to understand your post.
what kind of mac do you even have and since when is there a mac version of skyrim? >_<
also i got news, dell and alienware are shit as well. i spent roughly 500 euros in april last year for a i5-2500, 8gb ddr3, gtx 460 and 1 tb hd, using nothing but online hardware resellers.
try to get that under 2000 in a mac even almost 1 year later now.
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I had to program for iPhone for over a year due to my research group project at my University.
I had to use Apple stuff obviously. I hated it, from the horrible mouse and keyboard design (only LOOKS good, but horrible usability) to the oh my god so awkward iOS interface. One year trying to understand what Apple fanboys like so much about it, never got it.
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On February 04 2012 02:19 darksub wrote:
most of us (mac users) we pay for the os, and i want to build a hackintosh and try how it compares, but if you use it for work, you cant have driver problems, or any tipe of problems, osx is very reliable.
related to gaming, the problem isnt the hardware or the os, the problem is that gaming companies (most of them) dont program for mac, and thats why you see a diference, if you take blizzard games for example, that are programed for mac, you wont see much diference (given same hardware)
Sadly even Blizz games run pretty terrible on Macs. On the Mac im on right now there is a massive difference between the game on my Mac and Windows partitions.
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On February 04 2012 02:22 Corvi wrote:
i fail to understand your post.
what kind of mac do you even have and since when is there a mac version of skyrim? >_<
from what i can see he bought an overpriced alienware machine (instead could have gotten an overpriced dell computer!) and just put an apple OS on it?
edit: or maybe im wrong, let me join your "i don't get the point of this"-club
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Lol this OP doesn't even make sense.
So you bought a low-end server configuration... what the hell does this have to do with Macs or Alienwares?
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On February 04 2012 02:22 Corvi wrote:
i fail to understand your post.
what kind of mac do you even have and since when is there a mac version of skyrim? >_<
You can install Windows on a Mac these days. So many Mac users get a Windows partition and then claim to have the best of both worlds (Mac OS features and Windows gaming). But the gaming thresh hold is held back by the lack of customization in Macs, so you can only get so powerful a video card. The 6970m in the most powerful iMac, for example, would find itself held back in really stressful games such as Battlefield 3. Skyrim is not really graphically intensive, so it does indeed run fine on modern iMacs.
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You can, in fact, customize an iMac. You just have to know what you are doing. Also, you can do anything on a mac you can on a PC, just partition off your hard drive and you are golden. Then again, you are paying 1k+ more for a shinier computer than what you could have with a PC.
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Oh god, that alienware is nowhere worth that 850 Euro pricetag
Did you, oh god, im not sure what exactly to say... DID YOU JUST CALL RAM SPEED?!?!?
Please, post your "MAC" specs, since im not sure exactly what computer (note, everything is a PC) you are currently referring too...
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To continue on my previous post, I appreciate what you're trying to bring forward here, but I fear that any discussion vaguely relating to Mac vs PC is bound to end in flaming and/or pointless bickering. Who knows, though, maybe this thread will result in good discussion, I dunno.
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I have an iPhone. I love it and hope to continue buying iPhones in the future. The ease of use is fantastic, as it is on a Mac. However, the iPhone is competitively priced to the other smartphones on the market. Macs are not competitively priced to other personal computers on the market.
This isn't a hard concept to understand, nor is it slanted or fictitious. If the ease of use is worth the extra money to you then no one should tell you otherwise. I'm not going to tell people who 'trick out' their cars it's a waste of money just because I think it is.
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On February 04 2012 02:16 Saryph wrote:
I might be wrong, but in the OP the pictures listed as skyrim run on a pc and run on a mac are the exact same file. I understand why you are doing it, but it'd still be nice if it was a little more honest.
Yeah, I know. That was the point. If you want, I can make a screenshot of Skyrim running on my Mac... Kind of boring.
On February 04 2012 02:16 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 02:14 exnomendei wrote:
I'm also willing to bet I know more about computers than 90% of TL. Somehow I'm thinking that the OP wasn't serious when he said this thread isn't a flame fest...
You're right. I'll try to tone it down. By the way, I am serious - I do think this is the case. I didn't mean to attack anyone personally with it.
On February 04 2012 02:16 Excludos wrote:
And you prove your point by comparing it to alienware, which is notorious for being expensive as hell. You see where this is already falling apart, don't you?
Alienware isn't sold in the Netherlands afaik, so I didn't know this. Find me a, say, 1000-dollar computer (prebuilt) with an HD6870 in it, though?
On February 04 2012 02:18 Crisium wrote:
Building PCs is so fun though. It's too bad that you once built PCs and then stopped doing so because you didn't like to do it, but that doesn't mean Alienware is the only choice for PCs.
I enjoyed the prospect of building computers a lot. I didn't like dealing with the issues. The Mac Pro I got is sort of both - I installed Bluetooth on it myself, I'm going to install two new processors when I get around to it, and the graphics card was fun too. The first HD6870 I got wasn't compatible, so I went to a store (and took my 45-pound computer with me, sigh) to test a different one. Worked first try in Windows and OS X. That was fun (although a pain as well, and not something I want to deal with very often).
On February 04 2012 02:22 Corvi wrote:
i fail to understand your post.
what kind of mac do you even have and since when is there a mac version of skyrim? >_<
I boot into Windows for games. I can actually run the game in a virtual machine in OS X, but I'd have to tone the graphics down all the way to medium, so I'll just reboot.
Yes, Macs run Windows. Really well too - no bloatware but you still get ALL the drivers (insert picture here) in one installation. Pretty well done.
I hated it, from the horrible mouse and keyboard design (only LOOKS good, but horrible usability) to the oh my god so awkward iOS interface. One year trying to understand what Apple fanboys like so much about it, never got it.
The mice suck. Loads. The trackpad is a lot better, but I use my Razer Imperator (yes, I know, bad sensor, but I liked the shape!) most of all.
The keyboard is a different matter. If you like notebook-style keyboards (I have several Logitechs to prove I do) it's really awesome, but if you don't, well, it sucks. I hated having a different feel to my desktop keyboard and my notebook keyboard, so before I even got a Mac desktop, I got one of their keyboards.
I won't get into iOS now - a bit too much of a deviation from this thread. To summarize: I like it, but I wish webOS was more successful.
On February 04 2012 02:33 Snackysnacks wrote:
Oh god, that alienware is nowhere worth that 850 Euro pricetag
Did you, oh god, im not sure what exactly to say... DID YOU JUST CALL RAM SPEED?!?!?
Please, post your "MAC" specs, since im not sure exactly what computer (note, everything is a PC) you are currently referring too...
Read a bit more carefully. I did not make that. RAM is indeed not speed. I don't agree with that silly picture. 
Specifications:
Mac Pro. 2007.
Two Xeon 5100 series processors (two cores each, 2,66 GHz model).
9 GB's of FB-DDR2 at some slow speed. Bottleneck of the machine.
HD6870 by Sapphire. Obviously not from 2007, but 2012 instead (well, 2011 model...)
The rest I'm not really bothering with unless you want to know anything specific?
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Just looking for about 10 minutes, I can either get a 27" 3.1GHz quad iMac for £1650 (free delivery!).
...Or I can get a customised pre-built PC (with windows) with a 3.3GHz processor, double the RAM (8Gig), 2GB version of the same graphics card (Radeon HD 6970M) for £1060, add in a 27" monitor makes that £1560 with £10 delivery. Only downside is I have to buy my own kb+mouse (oh noes).
It took me longer to type this out than to find something cheaper.
Macs are pretty good, eh runs smooth and doesn't afraid of anything. I'm just personally more used to windows and find a lot more freedom with them. I also own an iPhone a dislike the lack of customisation available on it, I will probably try an Android based system next.
Seriously though, Apple products are really good - but they are not worth the extra price just because of their name (£25 for a battery charger, come the f*ck on).
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Just for the fun of it i looked up what a mac pro 8 core (2x4) with 8 gb ram would cost ... I find the prices that op lists rather funny.
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Here's an idea: use whichever brand you like, and don't rub it in other peoples faces. GG!
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On February 04 2012 02:04 exnomendei wrote:9 GB's of FB-DDR ( You probably don't know what that is )
Are you shitting me lol?
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On February 04 2012 02:33 Snackysnacks wrote:
Oh god, that alienware is nowhere worth that 850 Euro pricetag
Did you, oh god, im not sure what exactly to say... DID YOU JUST CALL RAM SPEED?!?!?
Please, post your "MAC" specs, since im not sure exactly what computer (note, everything is a PC) you are currently referring too...
From what I understand from his bad OP is that he has a 2006 Mac Pro. He added in more memory and upgraded to a 6870.
Just note, I have a MBP and will purchase another one when necessary so I'm no Apple hater. But the OP's post is stupid. He's talking about server configurations that hardly anyone cares about.
OP doesn't really know what he's talking about if you can tell. There was no 2007 Mac Pro and 6870 is not used in the 2011 model. Comparing a server configuration to a consumer configuration is pretty stupid.
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On February 04 2012 02:35 Kuskinator wrote:
Just looking for about 10 minutes, I can either get a 27" 3.1GHz quad iMac for £1650 (free delivery!).
...Or I can get a customised pre-built PC (with windows) with a 3.3GHz processor, double the RAM (8Gig), 2GB version of the same graphics card (Radeon HD 6970M) for £1060, add in a 27" monitor makes that £1560 with £10 delivery. Only downside is I have to buy my own kb+mouse (oh noes).
It took me longer to type this out than to find something cheaper.
Seriously though, Apple products are really good - but they are not worth the extra price just because of their name (£25 for a battery charger, come the f*ck on).
Hey, thanks! That supports my argument that Macs aren't thrice as expensive. In fact, if you include keyboard and mouse that's pretty close, although the machine you mentioned is indeed faster. Mind you, the 2GB of RAM is pretty much moot, but whatever.
Oh, and the iMac is an all-in-one. It's three inches thick. The Dell (I presume you chose the U2711H, great screen) is the same size as a computer with a similar screen. I'd say that's pretty good - a bit more performance for the non-all-in-one and a much smaller profile for the iMac. Don't you agree that the differences are therefore subtle and not favored for either one? I'm not trying to enforce some sort of Macintosh-supremacy here.
(About the RAM: Just buy 8GB and slot it in, bit stupid to buy from Apple, who overcharge like madmen for it! Yes I agree there, I know.)
Oh and the battery charger does come with 6 Eneloop (Apple-branded) batteries. Not that bad a deal.On February 04 2012 02:42 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 02:04 exnomendei wrote:9 GB's of FB-DDR ( You probably don't know what that is ) Are you shitting me lol?
Yeah, I was reminded that I was a bit hot headed. I tried to tone it down. But FB-DIMMs are not exactly common knowledge anyway, which I so badly phrased there. (not that they're exceptionally fast or anything, stupid things being the bottleneck now)
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On February 04 2012 02:10 Catch]22 wrote:
People are just trolling you. Similar hardware = similar performance.
This, pretty much. Other than that, it comes down to the looks and the OS. Pretty much any machine can run any OS these days anyway. As for stability and stuff, I've seen people screw up badly on both OS too, but Windows PCs are/were a much bigger target for viruses and malware since they represented a huge share of the market. This is probably changing as we speak.
Also, this might be a typo, but 9GB of RAM? Edit: nvm that!
I don't know how you can expect a clean and civil discussion about such topic though. Even your OP doesn't strike me as a tiny bit objective.
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On February 04 2012 02:35 Kuskinator wrote:
Just looking for about 10 minutes, I can either get a 27" 3.1GHz quad iMac for £1650 (free delivery!).
...Or I can get a customised pre-built PC (with windows) with a 3.3GHz processor, double the RAM (8Gig), 2GB version of the same graphics card (Radeon HD 6970M) for £1060, add in a 27" monitor makes that £1560 with £10 delivery. Only downside is I have to buy my own kb+mouse (oh noes).
It took me longer to type this out than to find something cheaper.
Macs are pretty good, eh runs smooth and doesn't afraid of anything. I'm just personally more used to windows and find a lot more freedom with them. I also own an iPhone a dislike the lack of customisation available on it, I will probably try an Android based system next.
Seriously though, Apple products are really good - but they are not worth the extra price just because of their name (£25 for a battery charger, come the f*ck on).
For what it's worth: http://overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MO-015-HO (the monitor I'm referring to, or http://overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MO-011-HO for the 8-bit version (I don't have a clue what visible differences there are however) which saves another £80 bringing the total to £1480).
The PC: http://www.overclockers.co.uk/syscon_int.php?prodid=FS-282-OK play about with that, overclockers isn't even the cheapest vendor available for those components but are still considerably less than the Apple store.
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Your processor is the bottleneck, by a LONGSHOT
Oh god, why in lords name would you consider it ram..
How much did you pay for that machine and how recent?
Why is it like server configured
Edit: oh, understand now, thanks skyR
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On February 04 2012 02:43 Corporal Fortier wrote:
This, pretty much. Other than that, it comes down to the looks and the OS. Pretty much any machine can run any OS these days anyway. As for stability and stuff, I've seen people screw up badly on both OS too, but Windows PCs are/were a much bigger target for viruses and malware since they represented a huge share of the market. This is probably changing as we speak.
Also, this might be a typo, but 9GB of RAM?
I don't know how you can expect a clean and civil discussion about such topic though. Even your OP doesn't strike me as a tiny bit objective.
Yeah, I wasn't trying to defend or attack operating systems. Mac OS tends to be rather... messy to run outside of Apple's hardware though, not intended for someone who just performed their first install of Ubuntu  .
9 GB of RAM. The owner before my had 1 GB of RAM at first (2007...) and then threw in 8 GB's. He didn't bother removing the two 512 MB banks. I'm thinking of removing them since FB-DIMMs get a higher access latency when you add more physical banks.
Well, we're mostly doing alright I'd say... I tried to tone down a bit. I'm not trying to be objective in my OP either, no, I'm trying to get a discussion going. Seems to be doing alright...
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On February 04 2012 02:14 exnomendei wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 02:11 TrickyGilligan wrote:On February 04 2012 02:04 exnomendei wrote:
Or I could build by own. Did that. Last time I had a Q6600, 8800GT (later HD4870), an SSD at the same time as the HD4870, etc. I can build my own. I didn't, and I chose not to. You see, I could have gotten more performance, but I'd have to build it, I'd have to find and install the drivers for, well, everything, I'd have to get an add-on board since I need Firewire, I'd have to settle for a plastic case that's either too hot or too loud and so on.
I'm not really sure how your inability to build a computer helps you in this discussion at all. If anything, it's just going to further people's belief that Macs aren't for people who know anything about computers. I just built my own, I paid significantly less than the 850, and it's equal or better than your current machine in ever regard. Also, comparing to Alienware is a strawman. Alienware is the Apple of the PC world, you're paying a lot for the Alienware name and the shiny alien lights you get on your computer. Read it again. I can build my own. I did. I chose not to because I was annoyed by the issues of it, at least this time. Tell me, what are the specifications of your computer? I'd prefer to also get the cost of each component. (I've no doubt the CPU and memory are faster, by the way, it's a 2007 computer. My notebook's memory is faster (although it has 4 GB of it).) I'm also willing to bet I know more about computers than 90% of TL. Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 02:13 Glowbox wrote:
Comparing with Alienware is not really fair now is it (if you look at prices)? I think the point for many people is, if they build a pc and assemble it themselves they can get at least equal performance as that of a mac for less money.
Either way it's a troll picture. What is it exactly that you want to discuss? Mac vs Pc prices? Not sure what you mean by looking at prices, but that's not your point. Yes, people can build a faster computer for less money themselves. If you build your own car from components, it costs less money than an equivalent one as well. There's also the time factor involved. (and in the car's example, skill too, but that's moot with computers.) The thing is, this should surprise no-one: Labor costs money. Testing configurations costs money. Warranties cost money. Of course you can higher performance-per-dollar from a self-built computer than from a Mac! I'm not going to say you can't. Figures like thrice-the-price are bullshit, though. I'd explain it, but I tried and it was a bad, ugly rant. I did that before and it was a lot of back-and-forth about processors clocking lower at idle and I don't want to get into that. Anyway, point is: Yes, Macs are more expensive than building yourself, but there's nothing wrong with that.
Can you explain what issues you had with building the PC yourself? When I wanted a new PC, my little brother, 16 at the time, told me he could build me one NP. I ordered all the parts needed, took them to his room, went out and when I came back there was a fully built PC waiting for me. Never had a problem with it either. Saved a lot of money too.
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United States47024 Posts
Directly comparing prices between pre-built machines from different distributors, both Mac and PC is pretty pointless unless you're linking the full specs. This is because you can spend an enormous chunk of money on service/warranty stuff (some distributors charge several hundred dollars for those services).
Sure one distributor might charge you $200 more, but if you actually look at the price breakdown, it may be that $200 is entirely spent on a warranty/accidental damage/etc.. You can't know that without linking the full price breakdown.
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On February 04 2012 02:04 exnomendei wrote:
I'd have to settle for a plastic case that's either too hot or too loud and so on
This is just wrong.
Otherwise I kinda agree, I don't get the hate for macs. If someone likes the OS and the advantages macs offer why shouldn't they purchase them? People have different priorities when it comes to such things and not everybody cares about maximum performance/dollar.
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Your OP is very confusing.
You claim to show skyrim running on a mac, but you don't, so your pictures don't prove anything except that 2 pictures are indeed exactly the same.
Then you compare macs to alienwares, which is a lot like comparing macs to macs, or the 2 pictures that are exactly the same you have up there, since alienwares are made fun of just as often as macs are, if not more because people that run PCs are supposed to be tech literate (obviously you are too, but the majority of mac users are not).
Of course skyrim will run on a mac the same as it will run on a PC if they're both being played on windows 7, thats a given, but if you're using windows to play skyrim, why not just buy a PC instead for half the price?
I gave my spare dota 2 keys to my two best friends. One of them has a PC from '07 and it can run it fine. The other one has a mac, so he can't play it. Macs can't run a lot of modern games unless you bootcamp, in which case you're using a windows anyway. At some point the mac version of dota 2 will come out, but that will be at the very end of the beta, because porting stuff to macs screws up everything. Remember the random bugfixes in sc2 the first few patches, where it said "fixed bug where clicking one of 10 buttons could cause macs to crash" ?.
Apple products are robust and their support is better than most, but they can't do nearly as much as what windows can, and thats the point of the funny picture.
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I used to be a mac fan-boy, until I owned one....
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Hm, cool monitor. The U2711H seems a better value for money perhaps, better stand and more inputs, but still, cool.
The problem with 10-bit panels is that it's very likely that they're using a type of dithering to achieve it (Frame Rate Control or FRC) - which can cause some artifacts - and that your graphics card, OS, and application have to support it. But it's a nice monitor nonetheless.
I'm not going to get into the price thing too much - it's a mess to compare and it doesn't really help anyone (and leads to flames). I'll say that you're probably paying a hundred or two hundred pounds/euros/dollars for getting an all-in-one, but that's not Apple, that's physical form-factor. Is that fair?
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On February 04 2012 02:10 Catch]22 wrote:
Similar hardware = similar performance. .
This is true, but Apple think it's funny to charge more for the similar hardware.
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What the hell did I just read? I'm so confused. Comparing the price of an alienware to a mac? Makes sense I guess if you own a mac.
Look, the argument here is really simple. You can get the exact same components of a mac in a PC for LESS MONEY. You find me any mac out there and I can find essentially the same exact PC for cheaper.
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It's all about getting bang for your buck; if you overpay for a product you're not getting the best value.
I've owned plenty of Apple products before and I must say their customer support is excellent. That's it. If you don't have the slightest clue of how to manage the device, then fine. Put that money towards their support and the fact they will replace the product with the newest model with very few questions ask (they have the money to do so).
Anyway, it's the same shit with those other companies like Alienware and other outlets like Digital Storm. Their price tag markups are ridiculous. If you know how to build a computer or know someone who does then your best bet is doing it yourself or getting them to do it for you.
On February 04 2012 02:52 Mr Showtime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 02:10 Catch]22 wrote:
Similar hardware = similar performance. . This is true, but Apple think it's funny to charge more for the similar hardware.
Comes down to branding man and most people don't know any better. ;/
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The arguments against Macs were never that the performance was lacking..it was how overpriced their hardware is and always has been. Tradeoff being more stability (heard some horror stories though) and the minimize/maximize/exit buttons being on the opposite side of a window.
Also Skyrim isn't exactly a graphics benchmark either..
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On February 04 2012 02:14 exnomendei wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 02:11 TrickyGilligan wrote:On February 04 2012 02:04 exnomendei wrote:
Or I could build by own. Did that. Last time I had a Q6600, 8800GT (later HD4870), an SSD at the same time as the HD4870, etc. I can build my own. I didn't, and I chose not to. You see, I could have gotten more performance, but I'd have to build it, I'd have to find and install the drivers for, well, everything, I'd have to get an add-on board since I need Firewire, I'd have to settle for a plastic case that's either too hot or too loud and so on.
I'm not really sure how your inability to build a computer helps you in this discussion at all. If anything, it's just going to further people's belief that Macs aren't for people who know anything about computers. I just built my own, I paid significantly less than the 850, and it's equal or better than your current machine in ever regard. Also, comparing to Alienware is a strawman. Alienware is the Apple of the PC world, you're paying a lot for the Alienware name and the shiny alien lights you get on your computer. Read it again. I can build my own. I did. I chose not to because I was annoyed by the issues of it, at least this time. Tell me, what are the specifications of your computer? I'd prefer to also get the cost of each component. (I've no doubt the CPU and memory are faster, by the way, it's a 2007 computer. My notebook's memory is faster (although it has 4 GB of it).) I'm also willing to bet I know more about computers than 90% of TL. Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 02:13 Glowbox wrote:
Comparing with Alienware is not really fair now is it (if you look at prices)? I think the point for many people is, if they build a pc and assemble it themselves they can get at least equal performance as that of a mac for less money.
Either way it's a troll picture. What is it exactly that you want to discuss? Mac vs Pc prices? Not sure what you mean by looking at prices, but that's not your point. Yes, people can build a faster computer for less money themselves. If you build your own car from components, it costs less money than an equivalent one as well. There's also the time factor involved. (and in the car's example, skill too, but that's moot with computers.) The thing is, this should surprise no-one: Labor costs money. Testing configurations costs money. Warranties cost money. Of course you can higher performance-per-dollar from a self-built computer than from a Mac! I'm not going to say you can't. Figures like thrice-the-price are bullshit, though. I'd explain it, but I tried and it was a bad, ugly rant. I did that before and it was a lot of back-and-forth about processors clocking lower at idle and I don't want to get into that. Anyway, point is: Yes, Macs are more expensive than building yourself, but there's nothing wrong with that.
You said in your first post that you bought the mac for 850 or w/e and then added parts to it which obviously increases the price of the computer. While I am not going to attack you saying that you know more about computers than 90% of tl which is a competitive pc gaming site is kind of silly especially since you felt the need to delineate the fact that 2 qual cores make 4 cores (which is unneeded information and not even completely true).
A rough break down of a computer that would suit any gamers need is
100- sweet looking case (I bought mine for 79)
150- up to date processor but not brand new
200- this would be a great price for a motherboard
150- video card; You could run any game and do a lot of video editing with a video card in this range
75- HD
95- Windows
25- dvd drive
75- 750w+ power supply
40- heatsink
--------------------------
910- This is the most I would probably pay for a computer with an average salary/job and while it may be 60 more than you posted, you forgot to include all the stuff (like that vid card) that you added to it. also, if I was to hit exactly what you built I would spend significantly less, especially because most apple motherboards are behind in power, their cpus are behind (especially for what you pay for them!!!!!!!) and their video cards are crap most of the time as well. Taking that with the horrible software that is osx and you have a product that 85%+ of population don't want.
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On February 04 2012 02:52 Mr Showtime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 02:10 Catch]22 wrote:
Similar hardware = similar performance. . This is true, but Apple think it's funny to charge more for the similar hardware.
Apple is priced competitively fyi, anyone that has a clue about computers would know this.
MBPs is in line with pricing of Dell Latitudes, Lenevo Thinkpads, and HP Elitebooks. I'm sorry if you think consumer notebooks equate to a business grade notebook.
An 27" IPS and ITX tower is going to end up costing about the same or even more than an iMac since the screen itself is close to $1000.
OP doesn't know what he's talking about but neither do you or the majority posting in this thread.
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On February 04 2012 02:48 NonFactor wrote:
Can you explain what issues you had with building the PC yourself? When I wanted a new PC, my little brother, 16 at the time, told me he could build me one NP. I ordered all the parts needed, took them to his room, went out and when I came back there was a fully built PC waiting for me. Never had a problem with it either. Saved a lot of money too.
I once spent two weeks helping a friend figure out what his PC's problem was. There's not really anywhere to go when ordering parts online from various distributors. We ran things to put the thing under load, it crashed, and we could say: Well, it's the motherboard, the graphics card, or the PSU. I've no idea how he ever figured out what it actually was. And I've built a few more PC's that work beautifully.
Yes, you save money. You spend time, you get no warranty on building it, etc. Time equals money, so in the end, you're trading one for the other. That's why I don't compare a Mac to a self-built PC.
On February 04 2012 02:49 clusen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 02:04 exnomendei wrote:
I'd have to settle for a plastic case that's either too hot or too loud and so on This is just wrong.
I'm kind of picky with regards to noise... (www.silentpcreview.net) so your mileage will indubitably vary on this. I modified the before-mentioned 8800GT with a custom heatsink and strapped a low-RPM fan to it to quiet it down, per example, to manage the issue.
But you're right, I'm wrong. Cases like the Silverstone Fortress FT2 are really good, and I was overstating it. (Also, that case is damn gorgeous.)
What the hell did I just read? I'm so confused. Comparing the price of an alienware to a mac? Makes sense I guess if you own a mac.
Look, the argument here is really simple. You can get the exact same components of a mac in a PC for LESS MONEY. You find me any mac out there and I can find essentially the same exact PC for cheaper.
What's your hourly rate? 'cause if it's free, I'd love to work with you. Can you produce a couple of hundred a day? Maybe a few thousand?
I'm not claiming that you'll get the same performance per dollar on a Mac as you do on a PC, even a pre-built one. But you're not being ripped off - the component costs are high because Apple uses expensive components more than that they simply charge more for the same ones. Using a Z86 motherboard isn't giving you that much more performance but it has other advantages, using a processor that downclocks more at idle but is more expensive isn't giving you more performance per dollar either. It's not that I say Macs are equal performarce per dollar (to self-built PC's at least) - I'm saying they're not overpriced.
By the way, yes, Alienware is apparently a rip-off. I stand corrected. It's been mentioned a few times before...
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This thread is created upon the basis of arrogance. The more OP says "I'm toning things down...", the more sure are we that you're just trying to brag even though there's nothing to brag about. You can't even layout your ideas coherently; provide horrible arguments with even worst support. You say that you're not patronizing and trying to have a real discussion - there's a large difference in "saying" and "doing".
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This should be closed imo. People can't seem to stop hating Apple, quite obvious from the responses.
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On February 04 2012 03:01 ixi.genocide wrote:
You said in your first post that you bought the mac for 850 or w/e and then added parts to it which obviously increases the price of the computer. While I am not going to attack you saying that you know more about computers than 90% of tl which is a competitive pc gaming site is kind of silly especially since you felt the need to delineate the fact that 2 qual cores make 4 cores (which is unneeded information and not even completely true).
Competitive PC gamers aren't always the same people as people who understand the deeper parts of computers. Also, that was a bit of an ugly comment by me - whether it's true or not.
I mention that two dual-cores make for four cores total. Which is true. It's not a quad-core (although it'll have two quad-cores soon), but disregarding L1 and L2 cache it's effectively a four-core, and if anything, it's faster than a single quad-core chip because of the cache and since the Northbridge isn't strained for bandwidth as easily.
I'm not going to get into the rest of the post... It's arguing semantics too often and it's not exactly easy to compare a 2007 server to a 2012 gaming computer. 850 does include the graphics card btw, but not the SSD and HDD's that I put in there, nor my Bluetooth chip. edit: To clarify, I mean that looking at prices and all that is arguing semantics too often. Not your post.
On February 04 2012 03:08 HereBeDragons wrote:
This thread is created upon the basis of arrogance. The more OP says "I'm toning things down...", the more sure are we that you're just trying to brag even though there's nothing to brag about. You can't even layout your ideas coherently; provide horrible arguments with even worst support. You say that you're not patronizing and trying to have a real discussion - there's a large difference in "saying" and "doing".
I'm not quite following you. Can you give some examples of after I mentioned I was indeed somewhat, for lack of a better word, arrogant, where I continued to do so or even made things worse? I'm trying to stop that, but I'm a bit worked up (due to unrelated things) and it might show through still.
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Ha ha nice tread
Love the pic in the op, did not see it before, i do feel its an accurate analogy
Annyway i completely agree so i wont let go of this opportunity to bash apple
Apple seems to be love or hate and i have hated them since their first macintosh pc.
Around 2000 they seem to completely have gone into the obscurity they deserve with the stock price at ~4$ but then they suddenly make a comback with a mobile phone and music player and are now the most valuable company on the planet >.<
Imo apple is all about promotion,not about the qualitys of the product itself.
I dont even find them user friendly and intuitive! wich is supposed to be their strong point but i guess this is just personal.
Custom build pc is the best value for monney you can get, i cant see how people can argue over that
There is no 40b$ of profit wich has to be paid .
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On February 04 2012 03:17 Rassy wrote:Ha ha nice tread Love the pic in the op, did not see it before, i do feel its an accurate analogy Annyway i completely agree so i wont let go of this opportunity to bash apple Apple seems to be love or hate and i have hated them since their first macintosh pc. Around 2000 they seem to completely have gone into the obscurity they deserve with the stock price at ~4$ but then they suddenly make a comback with a mobile phone and music player and are now the most valuable company on the planet >.< Imo apple is all about promotion,not about the qualitys of the product itself. I dont even find them user friendly and intuitive! wich is supposed to be their strong point but i guess this is just personal. Custom build pc is the best value for monney you can get, i cant see how people can argue over that There is no 40b$ of profit wich has to be paid .
I agree, custom built computers are the best value for money. Not so much time, or effort, or warranty though.
You're not really bashing Apple. You don't really have any arguments. You just stated your opinion. Which is fine, but also not bashing (and rather useless to go and respond directly to.)
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5003 Posts
i bet this is how progamers feel whenever some diamond/master league player whines about balance
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Every retail component purchased has warranty ranging from a year to lifetime... just because you're too lazy to troubleshoot, it doesn't mean there's no warranty.
OP is talking about a server configuration (which most people can't seem to grasp). The majority of everyone here only cares about gaming performance that can be had from a consumer configuration. So this discussion is pretty stupid.
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On February 04 2012 03:24 skyR wrote:
Every retail component purchased has warranty ranging from a year to lifetime... just because you're too lazy to troubleshoot, it doesn't mean there's no warranty.
OP is talking about a server configuration (which most people can't seem to grasp). The majority of everyone here only cares about gaming performance that can be had from a consumer configuration.
They can't grasp it because the OP is trying to compare his server configuration to a gaming PC.
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On February 04 2012 02:04 exnomendei wrote:
Please note that I'm not trying to flame anyone. I hope you can do the same.
Nothing wrong with Mac if you want to pay more for less, or a shitload more for the same.
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On February 04 2012 03:28 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 03:24 skyR wrote:
Every retail component purchased has warranty ranging from a year to lifetime... just because you're too lazy to troubleshoot, it doesn't mean there's no warranty.
OP is talking about a server configuration (which most people can't seem to grasp). The majority of everyone here only cares about gaming performance that can be had from a consumer configuration. They can't grasp it because the OP is trying to compare his server configuration to a gaming PC.
I realize this since it took me a few minutes to grasp that he has a 2006 Mac Pro. It was pretty stupid to start such a thread anways since you already know the majority of people are ignorant and only think of Apple as an overpriced brand even though all their products are priced competitively.
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You're really obnoxious... perhaps if you weren't such an asshole all the time people would be nicer about your subpar computer. Mac is not better, try listening to the overall majority instead of trying to proved they're wrong with random gifs and pictures. Mac has no customisation, is more expensive for the same product, runs less software, is generally slower, you're just paying more for the logo. Like designer clothes.
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On February 04 2012 03:15 exnomendei wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 03:08 HereBeDragons wrote:
This thread is created upon the basis of arrogance. The more OP says "I'm toning things down...", the more sure are we that you're just trying to brag even though there's nothing to brag about. You can't even layout your ideas coherently; provide horrible arguments with even worst support. You say that you're not patronizing and trying to have a real discussion - there's a large difference in "saying" and "doing". I'm not quite following you. Can you give some examples of after I mentioned I was indeed somewhat, for lack of a better word, arrogant, where I continued to do so or even made things worse? I'm trying to stop that, but I'm a bit worked up (due to unrelated things) and it might show through still.
You need examples? Re-read every post that you made carefully, it's all over the page. You can also read angry responses from people in the thread quoting specific parts of your OP, such as
On February 04 2012 02:16 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 02:14 exnomendei wrote:
I'm also willing to bet I know more about computers than 90% of TL. Somehow I'm thinking that the OP wasn't serious when he said this thread isn't a flame fest...
or this
On February 04 2012 02:42 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 02:04 exnomendei wrote:9 GB's of FB-DDR ( You probably don't know what that is ) Are you shitting me lol?
and so-on.
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On February 04 2012 02:10 Catch]22 wrote:
People are just trolling you. Similar hardware = similar performance.
I have an iPhone, and people keep telling me how shit it is, but are always unable to reply to the question "why do you think so?". Ihve tried several and the iPhone trumps them all so go figure.
For me, at least, it's not that the hardware is shit, but rather that the company who produces the hardware is shit. Apple is very controlling. They do their best to prevent you from doing anything with either the software or hardware they've made. I've never had an iPhone, but I do have an iPod touch 3rd gen and it's nice. However, I bought an Android about 6 months ago, and I don't think I'll go back to Apple mobile products. I can add memory to it, I can change some of the software features and the Droid market place is really nice and open.
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Opinion that MAC's are overpriced (And by overpriced I mean 3x price of PC) comes from prices Apple used put on upgrades when you build new machine through their web site. You want 4 gigs more RAM - $200 (And if you want 8 gigs more, well $600). While all companies have something like that, Apple took it ridiculously far, doing mark ups of 600% and over. I have not tried that for quite a while, but you get general trend.
Is it too much? I do not know let us do the math. On my custom built water cooled PC I spent about $2750 initially back in 2009. Since then I did quite a few upgrades. Around $3-3.5k worth of them. Case, PSU, Mobo, and CPU were upgraded once. Video card, headphones, display, mouse, mouse pad, and keyboard were upgraded few times. I also bought good speakers, printer, and SSD later on. As of right now I run i7 950 @4 ghz and thinking about upgrading to Ivy Bridge when LGA 1156 version comes out (a month or two) and new video card. That would be another $800-900 sacrificed to the mighty upgrade spirit.
So you can see how in the end MAC's do not seem prohibitively expensive to me. Should I have gotten a MAC and stopped upgrading? Possibly, but upgrading/overclocking is kind of a hobby I guess and doing same with MAC would be more expensive for sure. To put this in perspective amount I am paying for school dwarfs everything pretty quickly (About $6k every 3 months). Good thing I got a job. Can you imagine $36k in loans after only 2 years of schooling?
What apple does well is laptops - rest of the world only now started to catch up with them in terms of thickness/style/battery life. Intel's ultra books initiative will drive the price down for everyone while offering more options. Only a year ago if you wanted lightweight and powerful windows laptop you needed to get sony vaio z series, with a price tag (I think around $2.5k) that was much higher of then apple's mac book air. Now Asus and Acer offer quite a few alternatives for less then a $1000.
TL:DR sometimes it is worth paying extra to get a nice product with good support. Considering how much you need to shell out for upgrades to stay current in technology, price difference between a MAC vs PC is really inconsequential.
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*sigh*
Macs are good for some things and not for others.
PC's are good for some things and not for others.
NEITHER platform is perfect for everything.
Buy the one that is best for what you do and shut up about the other one.
/Thread
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On February 04 2012 03:31 Kui wrote:
You're really obnoxious... perhaps if you weren't such an asshole all the time people would be nicer about your subpar computer. Mac is not better, try listening to the overall majority instead of trying to proved they're wrong with random gifs and pictures. Mac has no customisation, is more expensive for the same product, runs less software, is generally slower, you're just paying more for the logo. Like designer clothes.
No customization. So the 4-core to 8-core upgrade, or slotting in an HD6870, or putting in Bluetooth, an SSD, etc, those aren't custom?
More expensive. Since that's what this thread about, you need to use arguments instead of statements.
Less software? I run Windows and Mac OS X on mine. I can run Linux. A Mac can run more software, instead, although I don't make a big deal of this.
The rest I'll ignore. By the way, if you don't want me to be an asshole - Stop being an asshole. i'm not claiming Mac superiority and supremacy anywhere, I'm trying to explain that Macs are equal in every way to other computers. I'm not trying to tell you to go out and buy a few Macs and go drink some kool aid. I'm not saying your little plastic box with as many LED's s possible is shit. (This is an example).
I'm being an asshole because of you
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Dude, are you seriously trying to compare some top-end computers by checking game performance? My brother has a lousy Phenom II, 4GB RAM and GTX 260 and he even downloaded some more detailed textures and extra special effects for Skyrim. Even with all that and some other tweaks that make it look better he has perfect performance at ultra settings.
Actually, I don't believe there is a game now that would pose a problem for setups like:
Core i5
4GB RAM
GTX 480
+ Show Spoiler [prices] +
Intel Core i5-2500K (3.3GHz, 6M Cache, 4x Cores) Overclocked to 4.5GHz Per Core CPU
ASUS P8P67 EVO (B3) P67 LGA 1155 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Motherboard
NVIDIA GTX 560 Ti Overclocked Edition 1GB 256bit DDR5 DX11 Graphics Card
Corsair Vengeance 8GB (1x4GB) DDR3 1600MHz High Performance Gaming RAM
500GB Seagate Barracuda 7200RPM SATA3 6.0Gb/s Hard Drive
Corsair TX650M 650W 80+ Modular High Performance Power Supply
Choice of CPU Cooling:
Noctua NH-D14 Dual Radiator 6 Heatpipe with 140mm/120mm Dual SSO Bearing Fans CPU Cooler
or
Corsair Hydro Series™ H60 High Performance Liquid CPU Cooler
Bitfenix Survivor Professional Gaming Case
24x Dual Layer DVD +/- Writer
Integrated 8 CH High Defination Sound Card
Integrated Gigabit LAN Card - Broadband Ready
LCD and OS Optional
24 Months Return to base warranty
This comes for ~1150 EUR, but it's way more powerful than it needs to be. It's a pre-built system.
Why won't you instead post some true benchmark results? This is nice: http://unigine.com/products/heaven/
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just checked out german apple site and configured a mac pro to be around the performance of my 1.5 year old pc.
price of the mac : 3.124,01 €
my pc when i bought it: 800 €
... and they want 375eur ( "8 GB (4 x 2 GB) [+ 375,00 €]" ) for ram? holy shit
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I own a pc but there are macs in my house.
I feel like this adequately describes the situation.
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On February 04 2012 03:31 HereBeDragons wrote:You need examples? Re-read every post that you made carefully, it's all over the page. You can also read angry responses from people in the thread quoting specific parts of your OP, such as Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 02:16 bonifaceviii wrote:On February 04 2012 02:14 exnomendei wrote:
I'm also willing to bet I know more about computers than 90% of TL. Somehow I'm thinking that the OP wasn't serious when he said this thread isn't a flame fest... or this Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 02:42 TheKefka wrote:On February 04 2012 02:04 exnomendei wrote:9 GB's of FB-DDR ( You probably don't know what that is ) Are you shitting me lol? and so-on.
Oh, sorry, I must have written that poorly. I meant giving me examples of after people pointed out that I was using wrong language, where I proceeded to. The two quotes were of people attacking me personally about my OP. I believe I answered both with an apology.
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On February 04 2012 03:38 exnomendei wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 03:31 Kui wrote:
You're really obnoxious... perhaps if you weren't such an asshole all the time people would be nicer about your subpar computer. Mac is not better, try listening to the overall majority instead of trying to proved they're wrong with random gifs and pictures. Mac has no customisation, is more expensive for the same product, runs less software, is generally slower, you're just paying more for the logo. Like designer clothes. No customization. So the 4-core to 8-core upgrade, or slotting in an HD6870, or putting in Bluetooth, an SSD, etc, those aren't custom? More expensive. Since that's what this thread about, you need to use arguments instead of statements. Less software? I run Windows and Mac OS X on mine. I can run Linux. A Mac can run more software, instead, although I don't make a big deal of this. The rest I'll ignore. By the way, if you don't want me to be an asshole - Stop being an asshole. i'm not claiming Mac superiority and supremacy anywhere, I'm trying to explain that Macs are equal in every way to other computers. I'm not trying to tell you to go out and buy a few Macs and go drink some kool aid. I'm not saying your little plastic box with as many LED's s possible is shit. (This is an example). I'm being an asshole because of you
I'm sorry, but most people have a real problem not with the mac hardware itself, but the smug superiority that mac users feel entitled to.
If you'd started this thread with "hey, I believe Macs can be viable alternatives to PCs for these reasons. I'm not saying they're better, but equal, and useful for a number of different non-gaming tasks." then I think people would be much more able to have a real discussion in this thread.
Instead, you started with, "oh yeah, well if PCs are a motercycle, then Macs are a F1 car!!!!!!!" You might feel that you are above the platform fighting (possibly that Mac elitism showing, but I digress), but really you're just contributing to it.
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I have a distinct feeling that I am being trolled.
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On February 04 2012 03:34 Dekoth wrote:
*sigh*
Macs are good for some things and not for others.
PC's are good for some things and not for others.
NEITHER platform is perfect for everything.
Buy the one that is best for what you do and shut up about the other one.
/Thread
I think the inane OP is /thread, but this is fine too.
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IMO the difference between mac vs pc comes down to simple ideology, and what you want to get out of it. As someone who has used both and loved both, there are clear advantages and disadvantages to both sides. What it comes down to, is either a vertical system of product/software development (mac) or a horizontal one (pc). In an attempt to try to be somewhat bipartisan and avoid bias, I'll try to give a rundown of both (tho I am certainly not the end-all be-all expert in these things, but w/e)
note: i actually ended up writing a shitload more than I expected, so I spoilered my comparisons so it's the slightest bit less wall-of-text-y
Mac:
+ Show Spoiler +Mac has the benefit of being everything basically being built specifically for each software and hardware counterpart. Each aspect of hardware is taken advantage of to the fullest by the software. There are obviously a lot of advantages to this in terms of cost-efficacy and value (altho Apple kind of negates this with its high prices), but also provides an enormous amount of stability and provides universal standards that are always adhered to, which means you end up with little to no compatability problems. The compatability advantages becomes even more clear when you have other Apple devices. They play together so well and (in my experience) it's very easy to sync up all of your devices in comparison to dealing with windows-based devices.
This, however, has some disadvantages, mostly expressed in how poorly mac operates outside of the 'Apple bubble'. I have a lot of problems in dealing with itunes and other mac-based software as well as working with my iPod on my windows machine. Mac's design philosophy also severely limits consumer adaptability, and makes outsider troubleshooting very difficult. For 2 semesters and a summer, I worked at my uni's IT department, and I have worked on enough Macs to get really frustrated with how difficult it is to open them up, and have in-fact (despite tons of experience reparing windows laptops) managed to royally fuck up a macbook because it is just that damn difficult to get open. Mac's design goes entirely against the hacker and hardcore ideologies that promote interchangability, so if you're one of those people, I would not recommend using one.
Basically, Mac is tailored for the uninformed consumer (please don't take this to mean that I assume that all mac customers are idiots), a person who doesn't really care about getting the bleeding-edge, but wants to get the full package of user experience one can get from a computer/technology and pre-configured to do so. I think there is no doubt that there is a large market for this kind of thing (hence why apple is doing as well as it is), but also kind of alienates the people that want to set up their things themselves.
PC:
+ Show Spoiler +The PC ideology is pretty much the polar opposite of Mac. Instead of the vertical product design, where everything is put together for you, it's totally horizontal and encourages users to interchange new parts and to customize their own user experience. Windows works with literally any kind of hardware, and works pretty well on all of it, especially so when you can really get into the nitty-gritty and adjust a lot of the more basic stuff to suit you. This means that all PC's have a much larger inherent potential to be individualized, and naturally there's a lot of appeal for having your computer, instead of one set up for you by someone else. It also means that PC will inevitably be ahead when it comes to both individual product value as well as looking at bleeding-edge technology, because, again, you are encouraged to swap out for newer and better things, so that demand is driving the pc hardware market pretty hard. So PC's will inevitably be faster and more powerful than Macs (tho the difference is getting less and less noticable, especially given Mac's baby steps into the video game world).
On the other hand, because it is so open, and you have so many options, it leads to some issues when it comes to universal standards and compatibility. To do a proper pc build/hardware upgrade, there is research involved. You have to make sure you have the right type motherboard, right socket CPU, right input format for your internal devices (harddrive, dvd drive, etc, I actually had somebody come in with an external DVD drive with usb input and wanted me to put it into the computer), and yes, this only takes an hour or two for experienced computer users, but for people who have nearly 0 computer knowledge outside of browsing youtube/email and using a word processor, it can be intimidating.
PC's also have the issue of viruses and stability (altho these have gotten much better with Win7 IMO, i've seen a lot less virus and stability issues since the Uni switched to win7 from Xp, I came to IT right on the crux of that switch), so that is also something to consider, altho yet again, for experienced computer users, it comes down to research and fairly basic computer safety.
(now we move from mostly subjective to totally subjective )
So, overall, what this really looks like to me, and something I'm sure a lot of you can relate to, is that this looks like the classic Casual audience vs the Hardcore audience kind of thing (altho Linux is like, hardcore-hardcore, but I won't really go there), and both have their own markets and their own proponents and their own critics and their own advantages and their own disadvantages. I really urge you, though, to think about it this way. We all know that the majority of the human population is stupid and ignorant. And I personally, would be a lot more comfortable giving them a mac, where it's hard to screw things up, and everything is all set up for you, than trying to give them a PC, where they can easily stumble into really stupid situations (where do I download RAM, anyone?). On the other hand, if you're one of those people who wants to run 2 copies of Half Life 2 and be able to run solitare whilst they load, then you're probably going to be much happier with a PC.
(also please note that I REALLY don't think that mac users are inherently stupid or something, that's not the message I am trying to send, tho I realize at points it seems like that. I think that mac vs pc is the equivalent of toyota camry vs corvette, one being superior for the general masses, the other for enthusiasts. This is also nearly 99% my own opinion)
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On February 04 2012 03:49 h41fgod wrote:
I have a distinct feeling that I am being trolled.
i have the distinct feeling that this whole discussion is completly pointless.
macs are (for the same hardware) far more expensive, that would be the most important argument (for me) not to buy one.
(some other facts disregarded that I think make them inferior to PC imo, but that's not the point)
every thread in every forum regarding PC vs. mac will result in a troll and/or flame fest.
macfags (sry, but there isn't another word that adequately macusers qq) will (almost) always think they got the better product. i let them be ... as long as they don't want to indoctrinate it on me (which many of them to regardless ...)
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On February 04 2012 03:55 Askr wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 04 2012 03:49 h41fgod wrote:
I have a distinct feeling that I am being trolled. i have the distinct feeling that this whole discussion is completly pointless. macs are (for the same hardware) far more expensive, that would be the most important argument (for me) not to buy one. (some other facts disregarded that I think make them inferior to PC imo, but that's not the point) every thread in every forum regarding PC vs. mac will result in a troll and/or flame fest. macfags (sry, but there isn't another word that adequately macusers qq) will (almost) always think they got the better product. i let them be ... as long as they don't want to indoctrinate it on me (which many of them to regardless ...)
So you don't want a business grade notebook, workstations, or 27" IPS monitors with a SFF computer. Congratz, you fit in the majority of all consumers. It doesn't mean their hardware is significantly more expensive than the competing products. You're beyond delusional if you think Macs are overpriced for what you get, try and find a 27" IPS and a SFF computer for significantly less than an iMac.
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I built this gaming computer for 1000$, it has an SSD, an HDD, GTX 560, and i5, and 8 gigs of ram. 700 watt power supply and 21.5 inch 2ms monitor.
I have had 2 macs, the first one was $1200, 1 gig of ram, core duo and a 2600HD for graphics. 500GB HDD. Starcraft crashed on this computer on lowest settings. 24 inch screen.
Bought a new mac for 1500$. And I thought for SURE this computer would last me, and it did, for a year and a half. i3 processor and 4 gigs of ram. AMD 5750 graphics card and 27 inch screen. The weird thing is though, this computer was specced high enough to run SC2 according to online (recommended 4 gigs and video card on the recommended list is slightly lower) It was pretty good for awhile when I played WoW, it ran it at 80 fps which is really good.
But for SC2, my goodness was it awful. If I had microsoft word open with sc2 the game would slow down, and dont even mention if I had Safari open....
This 1000$ computer runs Sc2, Tribes, streams in HD, and I can stream myself (something Mac cant do unless you pay I think) and unlimited amounts of Internet pages like Facebook and Twitter to talk to friends. Did I mention it does all three of those at the same time too as opposed to my 2 macs?
I realize there was a time discrepancy, but I'm not sure how big of a deal 1 and a half years is, the first Mac I talked about I understand would not be up to par.
But I still use my Iphone 4s and love it!
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Sorry but for me mac vs. PC doesn't fall on performance or style, its performance/price.
TBH, most of my friends that got fed up with windows and switched to apple did it this way:
Were using a shitty blackberry, went from blackberry to iphone 4/4S, no shit they would like it more. Switching from a BB to any high-end touchscreen is a huge improvement, they just happen to have switched to apple for aesthetic reasons and now have a social investment in apple.
OR, they were using a PC running windows vista (if you had vista I'm sorry for you, it was a bad time for windows until windows 7 fixed a bunch of stuff.) they then switched from a vista-based laptop to a macbook. No wonder they would be impressed. Switching from a 3-4 year old vista computer with a new macbook or a new window 7 based computer would both have yielded excellent results. Again this was a choice primarily for aesthetic reasons, not because of the technology versus price ratio.
You can buy a decent macbook, or a decent windows laptop, you can switch to an iPhone or an android based phone.
Depending on what you buy, you can get a windows computer with similar or better stats for MUCH less, we are talking up to 1/3 less, sometimes much more. I'm not talking about HP/Dell or some other massive brand that churns out lego computers. Things like alienware will obviously be pricier because of the name (always have been).
For example: a macbook pro 17 inch costs 2500, a shitload for what you get, granted its a nice laptop, 2500 bucks is a huge MSRP. The 15 and 13 inchers are less,the 15 being 1800.
Most similarly specced stock laptops (with same or bigger screen, similar or better graphics capabilities, same processing power, and Windows 7) will run less than $1k now, in the 800-1000 range.
So, when it comes down to it, what do you really value? I couldn't care less about aesthetics as long as they don't obtrude or draw away from the experience, which usually has me doing my research and picking the off-brand laptop running windows and the android based phone.
Apple produces hardware and software for their product. The price is set in stone, and it doesn't compete with similarly specced computers because Apple users are loyal and want the aesthetic.
Windows/android products are produced by MC/Google, then put into hundreds of different brands and devices from different companies. Obviously with a larger range of products carrying your software, a few things happen: more choices, lower prices, and generally lower-quality aesthetics. This is in direct contrast with Apple's generally higher prices, less options, and better control over the aesthetic aspect.
All in all, if you want a mac, get a mac, if you want a PC, get a PC. If price/quality matters more to you, you will probably end up getting a PC depending on your situation, then again a mac could end up being a better option if you find a good price on one, if your parents are buying and you are in college and don't game at all, you are probably going for a mac because that's just what people do in college when their parents are buying. If you game, chances are you are getting a PC (even though games run fine on Macs, the price/quality ratio plays a role, a cheaper windows-based computer will probably be able to run the same game comparably).
My qualifications: my gradeschool was owned by apple, every computer in the place was a mac (part of their indoctrination program lol). I had a PC at home. Needless to say, the one-button mouse soured me to apple from the start. My high school used PC, but they were old and crappy. My college uses macs.
I chose PC, I'm still not sure why, at this point it really is about cost/quality for me, and I can just get a better windows-based laptop for a better price than if I had bought a mac.
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Heres why I don't use mac:
The cost for similar performance vs a selfbuilt computer is twice as much. Now it may be more stable, but the cost increase does not justify this. Also, the amount of customization you have on a PC is superior. That being said, if it were for casual use, and I had unlimited money to spend, I would go with mac.
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bought a mac for work related things. i like having unix, its pretty nice.
also why are people complaining about the cost? of course a pre-built computer is going to cost more than buying parts individually.. its more expensive with PCs too
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So you're saying you're willing to pay a couple of hundred bucks extra and not be able to use a good chunk of software because you don't want to deal with drivers in windows and not change the stock coolers?
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On February 04 2012 04:11 KCrazy wrote:
bought a mac for work related things. i like having unix, its pretty nice.
also why are people complaining about the cost? of course a pre-built computer is going to cost more than buying parts individually.. its more expensive with PCs too
I also wanted to get iMac/hackintosh when im done with my current pc...and then i found Xmonad *angelic music starts playing*
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On February 04 2012 04:11 KCrazy wrote:
bought a mac for work related things. i like having unix, its pretty nice.
also why are people complaining about the cost? of course a pre-built computer is going to cost more than buying parts individually.. its more expensive with PCs too
they mean the price of a pre-built PC vs. a pre-built mac with similar specs. PC is still cheaper.
and yes, a self-built computer will always be even cheaper, and you can never do this with a mac, seems like the huge techies have no reason to switch to mac.
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Katowice25012 Posts
This is not going anywhere constructive.
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EPT
