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Shouldnt have carried a knife or weapon imo. Stupid thing to do that ends up in results like this.
Though i dont think its murder or anything, and im sure the bullied deserved some form of punishment, but death? meh..
I had a couple friends who brang weapons into school and both were caught and expelled, i think ones sleeping in cars and shit now :|
I was harrassed by afghans who used fake ages (lol.) to get into the school, these guys were like 18-19 and there were probably about 10 of them. One day i had enough and fought the biggest one, probably came off worse but what happened next was the best thing. A group of em came at me the day after along the lines of "the pride of my brother!!" shit. Bunch of people who knew what happened (i didnt know them.) stepped in and told them to gtfo.
Gotta jus' stand up to this bullcrap instead of resorting to using weapons, if you seriously need to resort to that your worse then the bullies imo. Fists dont kill people. (To an extent ^^)
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I don't really know what to think about all that since a part of me believe that the bully got what he deserved...
But, there is a guy in the comment to the article that you linked that says that if it was a "black to black crime" he would have been put to jail, is it right ?
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On January 10 2012 18:55 isleyofthenorth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 18:51 StarStruck wrote:On January 10 2012 18:48 isleyofthenorth wrote:On January 10 2012 18:46 S_SienZ wrote:On January 10 2012 18:43 isleyofthenorth wrote:On January 10 2012 18:38 tripper688 wrote:On January 10 2012 18:26 isleyofthenorth wrote:
A man possessing child porn on his hard drive gets a life sentence.
14 year old severly bullied boy commits manslaughter and gets nothing.
Pretty messed up Self defense is a more than valid defense in the case of manslaughter. There really is not such equivalent defense in the case of child pornography. I don't see how that is messed up. Or are you implying that if someone was assaulting you with the intent to do serious bodily harm, you cannot defend yourself out of risk of committing manslaughter? him carrying a knife, in anticipation of a fight alone is worse to me than possessing child porn i dont think its defendable carrying a lethal weapon and striking 12 times at leathal spots because someone might/is about to beat you up He was told BEFOREHAND that he was going to get beaten up. =.= Not everyone has killer biceps or a sick right punch to rely on. ok then i got it wrong, but thats almost as bad. equipping yourself with a lethal weapon because someone will beat you up. Im kind of disgusted by all the opininions in this thread that consider someone who stabs 12 times with a knife(no matter the circumstances) totally innocent The kid believed his life was endanger. Kids are immoral. -_- If you read all the posts and the pdf thoroughly perhaps you wouldn't be so hardpressed on what actually transpired. doesent matter if the kid was afraid that his life was in danger. there is no proof for that. Also how likely is it that someone who announced that he will beat you up, will actually murder you. noone is that stupid
There is no proof of that? Newsflash, the bully wasn't stabbed while telling the kid he was going to beat him up, he was stabbed while chasing the kid down as he was beating on him. Not sure how much more blatantly obvious it can get that he was in danger of death or grievous bodily harm.
On January 10 2012 18:58 isleyofthenorth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 18:55 xM(Z wrote:
if i were to choose between a bully victim suicide and a bully stabbin' i'd take the later everytime. (as being 'better')
if all the bullies would suddenly get stabbed i wouldn't lose any sleep over it. and how are you ever gonna know if someone that is bullied will commit suicide? or just stab all bullies beforehand so that the first case never occurs?
Are you seriously equating pre-emptive stabbing with a stabbing while being assaulted?
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Wow, what a sad situation.
The death must have been a freak event - it is actually a lot harder to kill someone with a knife than you'd think. Especially when you're a teenager... and if he had blatantly finished the bully off after the fight was over, this wouldn't be clearcut self defense.
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I just feel so sad when things like this happens... It's culmination of alot of things, and they just never (almost) end well T_T.
Not going to "judge" or put out my own opinion of this, since there is just not enough facts to observe besides a few comments.
I hope though that the both families get the help they need, and that school, community and politicians actually take note (again...)
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On January 10 2012 19:02 Capped wrote:
Shouldnt have carried a knife or weapon imo. Stupid thing to do that ends up in results like this.
Though i dont think its murder or anything, and im sure the bullied deserved some form of punishment, but death? meh..
I had a couple friends who brang weapons into school and both were caught and expelled, i think ones sleeping in cars and shit now :|
I was harrassed by afghans who used fake ages (lol.) to get into the school, these guys were like 18-19 and there were probably about 10 of them. One day i had enough and fought the biggest one, probably came off worse but what happened next was the best thing. A group of em came at me the day after along the lines of "the pride of my brother!!" shit. Bunch of people who knew what happened (i didnt know them.) stepped in and told them to gtfo.
Gotta jus' stand up to this bullcrap instead of resorting to using weapons, if you seriously need to resort to that your worse then the bullies imo. Fists dont kill people. (To an extent ^^)
14yo vs 3 older bigger kids. Fuck that.
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On January 10 2012 18:58 isleyofthenorth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 18:55 xM(Z wrote:
if i were to choose between a bully victim suicide and a bully stabbin' i'd take the later everytime. (as being 'better')
if all the bullies would suddenly get stabbed i wouldn't lose any sleep over it. and how are you ever gonna know if someone that is bullied will commit suicide? or just stab all bullies beforehand so that the first case never occurs?
since we're talking from a 3rd person perspective, don't victimize the victim is the answer to both your questions. who 'gets it' first is irrelevant.
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Almost similar to Varg Vikerens. He was in a death metal band where his bandmate threatened him with torture and possibly going to kill him. Varg killed him first but the law wasnt on his side.
If the child was in self defence; the fucker probably deserved it.
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Sad thing, truely. Nevertheless, if he only kept the knife for self-defense, which it currently seems so, I think he did the right thing to keep somekind of protection with him. I don't blame him if he didn't have any other intentions than just self-defense. Bullies should think what could be the worst case scenario if they keep picking people.
As just little bit bullied myself I don't want to even know how afraid this kid was for his life.
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On January 10 2012 18:55 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 18:50 tripper688 wrote:On January 10 2012 18:34 StarStruck wrote:On January 10 2012 16:56 tripper688 wrote:On January 10 2012 16:44 StarStruck wrote:On January 10 2012 16:35 tripper688 wrote:On January 10 2012 16:22 StarStruck wrote:On January 10 2012 16:04 tripper688 wrote:On January 10 2012 15:22 StarStruck wrote:On January 10 2012 15:14 KryptoStorm wrote:
[quote]
I blame parents most of the time, ofcourse some people are born 'different/disturbed/blablabla' but it is up to their parents to help them.. A parent cannot help their child when they are unaware of what's going on. It's all about communication. Even if they noticed something was wrong with the boy it would probably still be hard to get an answer out of him as to what was really going on especially at his age.It's not so simple and straight forward as you make it out to be. The kid probably thought he had no outs. He was backed in a corner. Not fun being stuck in a corner. This was obviously going on for sometime as he was carrying a concealed weapon. What's the morale of the story? Stop bullying people. Treat them like you would want to be treated and everything is strawberries. Isn't that a just a nicer way of saying parents failed to realize their kid was a bully or being bullied? Key word there being failed? I mean unless the guy had some serious psychological issues aka a budding sociopath or the like, it's first and foremost the job of the parents to help fix this behavior. After that, it becomes an issue for the school and then the law. The fact that this whole thing went down the way it did is just so sad because literally everyone involved failed. Except for the kid with the knife. No. If a child doesn't want to speak out it's pretty hard to find out what's going on even when a parent notices changes in attitude. In many cases they think their child is just going through puberty and rebelling against them. Bullying can have a traumatizing effect on a child and affect them psychologically. Parents cannot fix or give help unless asked for it. Like I said. It comes down to good communication between both parent and child. Here's the thing. If someone's severely depressed good fucking luck with that. If you push a kid long enough. Eventually they will snap. This kid did. I think those kids broke him down mentally. In either case, its going to be a long road for him. Lots of counselling, anger management and mental health therapy. Not fun. I disagree. As much as you say parents can't help unless it's asked for, that simply isn't true. If they don't know how to reach their child or how to help, then it's their job to ask and find out how. It's their job to recognize the signs and to get help for their child if needed. Just as much as it is the job of the parents of the bully to realize what their child is doing to others and to try and fix that as well. You obviously aren't a parent, or never dealt with depression. Unfortunately for me. *raises hand* Adolescent kids are pretty hard to break-in especially when they are closing themselves off from the rest of the world. Then we have a thing called depression. Oh depression. That's a biggie. Severe depression can be a life-long struggle and the only way to start the healing process is to let others in. Not everyone can read body language and the other semiotic signals of someone crying for help. It comes down to interpretation. Just like your intrepretation is very different from mine. Bullying isn't always so obvious. In this case, we have to consider every detail and like I said before. It's a shame the bus driver didn't step in or notice spitballs with cream and the other debachery happening in his/her bus. While I am not a parent, I have dealt and am dealing with depression. Saying that if a kid is depressed then there is nothing the parents can do simply isn't true. What is true is that it's extremely hard to deal with properly and most people fail. Again, key word there being fail. In most cases, it's not an issue of "Nothing could have been done" but rather cases of "Oh this should have been done differently, I should have seen this, you should have done that, etc." You said it yourself, it comes down to interpretation and recognizing the signs. While you may say it's too much to ask for parents to recognize signs of bullying and know how to help or know how to seek the right venues for help, I don't think this is the case. In effect, you are essentially saying that the victim who may or may not have been depressed was at fault because he didn't do enough to get the help he needed from the people who should have been protecting and watching over him. No. You only have so much control. You cannot control people. Somethings you can control; other things you cannot. You can be the best driver in the world. Always obeying the law. Never had an accident. It's winter and the roads are icy. You give yourself ample time to stop at the red light. Car comes to a halt. All of the sudden BOOM! Someone blindsides you because there was black ice on the road. No control over that accident. If you think you can control your child to perfection. You're in for it. Not only that, At 14 tweens can be pretty secretive. From the little info we have, it sounds like he kept to himself well. All bottled up inside. _ Kids are picking up things faster than ever nowdays with all the exposure of sex and violence. Then again, I knew ton of kids with switch blades, butterfly knives and swiss army knives by the time I was that age. In any case, kids deal with all kinds of shit at that age including identity crisis. They don't really know who they are and are exploring. _ Most people are abysmal at reading body language let alone detecting depression. Many people I've spoken to say they've been through depression. Then I ask them about the degree of depression they were diagnosed with? In some instances they look at me puzzled or in other cases they say they were never diagnosed. It's not always depression and no, you don't necessarily have to get diagnosed. What I am saying is that mild cases are very different from severe. If it interfers with your everyday life for a really long time and you aren't functional. Houston, we have a problem. I see mild cases as only the beginning. In other words, it's a mood swing of being down. It can persist for several weeks, but the person is still highly functional. They cope with it. It isn't really a problem. A lot of people who are depressed don't want help or know how to help themselves. That and it's REALLY HARD for them to talk about it. Not for me. I've always been an open book. It's how I deal with it. I know I've always hated medication and don't want it. That's just me. People throw around the word depression too much. Same could be said about addiction. It's a total piss off to those who are truly, severely suffering from depression and addiction. There are many false signals out there and misread signs. No one has that shit down and before you know it. It's too late. What you think is the problem is usually only a symptom of the problem. Depression is a maze. You are the rat that they are experimenting on and you have to ultimately find your way out of the maze yourself. The only thing other people can do is provide their support. That is it. It's much more complex. I'm very well studied in these semiotics and I wouldn't even consider myself an expert when it comes to reading human behavior let alone talking about my own depression and I'm a fucking writer/actor/director for goodness sake. An expert? Not by a long shot. I can only speak from my experience. Once again, we are at no liberty to judge his parents based on all the information we have. None. We cannot change what's happened. All we can do is address the now. Hopefully the kid gets the help he needs. A shrink cannot force him to talk the same way a parent can't. They will have to take preventable measures now because he stabbed and killed the boy, but how willingly he will go along with it is anyone's guess. He wasn't at fault if you read the pdf in it's entirety. I am not placing the fault on him. There are many forms of bullying: gossip, rumors, internet, insults, derogatory terms, slurs, racism, humiliation, body language, spacial, intimidation, bossing, blackmail, manipulation, peer pressure, physical, etc. All these terms fit can fit under the act of bullying. Everyone gets bullied no matter where. How you deal with it is another story. You haven't actually addressed the point I was making. I'm not saying it's easy or even reasonable to expect this from parents but they have to get better at recognizing and dealing with the signs and symptoms of bullying, abuse, depression (and any other form of mental illness). Maybe I'm being a bit harsh but what I said is still the truth. Whether or not the child cooperates by spilling their guts to mommy and daddy, whether or not mommy and daddy are gifted with being able to visually interpret body language correctly, in the end, you're the parent. You're the one responsible for the health and well being of the child. Sometimes it's basically an impossible situation but that's what it is. Arguing that it's not a failure for parents to not recognize signs and symptoms of their kids being abused or suffering severe depression is about as silly as arguing that the kid didn't actually kill anyone because the manslaughter was justified. Maybe it's unreasonable to expect parents to be able to do that but it would sure go a long way towards dealing with these issues. Didn't I just say those signs aren't as highly visible and in many cases the intrepretation of whatever the boy does by the parents won't be accurate. Just like your interpretation is different from mine. You are directing your own film from the words you read. As am I. Everyone is going to have a different intrepretation. Bullying can go on right underneath your nose. Fuck, in many cases you probably aren't even aware that you were bullied to begin with. Goes back to the last few lines I wrote in my last message to you. Now put into the mental psyche of what the boy was going through. Now the actual fight and spacial composition. Viola. A trapped rat.
I don't think you're getting my point but in any case, it's no longer of import to the family of either the bully or his victim.
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On January 10 2012 19:07 Inori wrote:
Anyone talking about "12 stabs is a cold-blooded murder obviously!!1" have never been on the victim side of a bully fight. Else you'd know how much anger, fear, adrenaline, emotional stress goes through you in a matter of seconds.
Seriously, where does it even describe those stabs? It's not exactly an FPS where a stab with a knife instantly reduces your hit points by 3/4 and you start seeing red and stumble around. I can poke you in the arm with a knife or give you shallow cut to the chest and those are still stab wounds even though it does absolutely nothing to stop you from using my head as a speed bag.
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Let's give him a medal boys
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On January 10 2012 19:07 Kyuki wrote:
I just feel so sad when things like this happens... It's culmination of alot of things, and they just never (almost) end well T_T.
Not going to "judge" or put out my own opinion of this, since there is just not enough facts to observe besides a few comments.
I hope though that the both families get the help they need, and that school, community and politicians actually take note (again...)
If the events transpired as described in the article, I don't have any problem with it.
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You know, things like this actually make me a fan of home-schooling. Such problems can't happen then anymore. However, then you have other problems that appear.
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Obviously, the bully was being a, well bully. There are no winners in this, but I can't say I blame the guy being bullied for just stabbing the shit out of the bully.
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This is why non-lethal weapons are a good idea. Pepper spray or a Taser would instead of a knife would have saved both parties from a lot of pain. Or the actually correct solution, which would have been to tell an adult that you are going to get beat up after school.
Fighting back against a bully is never a good idea. He wouldn't be picking on you if he saw you would be able to take him in a fight and if you equalize by carrying a weapon, as the victim in this case did, you will just end up ruining your life forever. Ignore them, if they keep harassing you despite you not giving them the attention they crave, tell an adult: teacher, police, principal, parents, etc.
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Edit: nvm, somehow quoted the wrong thing.
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Now that they're actually aware of it? ._.
Of course man... Did I saw otherwise? Can only focus on the present, but remember what I said. They can only offer their support. It's completely on the kid to address what he needs in terms of support to get through this.
Yes, I do think you have been harsh on his parents and that was my main point. Like I said before, our knowledge is very limited on his relationship with them so its incredibly hard to pinpoint where his parent's could have helped him or notice the fact he was being bullied. The differences can be very subtle. Like I said, not all bullying is highly visible. I'm pretty sure he cleaned himself up after the spitballs and what not so his parents wouldn't notice.
It's the same deal when you ask your wife how was her day and all she says is, "Fine."
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Sure, he was afraid of the bullies, and they hit him first.
But does that justify actually killing another human being? I think not. He cant just get away without any charges at all.
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EPT
