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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
On December 14 2011 20:27 hYrasD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:15 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 Sailincieri wrote:
Kids, this is obvious decision, you should understand why...
GSL is tournament for professional players, playing is profession, not some kind of fun.
In GSL they play for audience! Not for themselves. Do you think in normal JOB you can say to your boss that you have bad humor and dont wanna work? NO!
Naniwa, no matter what he think, should just sit in that booth and give fight with all his heart! To respect Korean audience, NesTea, GSL stuff, online audience etc.
This match wasnt meaningless, if not for Naniwa it has meaning for audience, probably for NesTea...
This is not a playground for 3yo kinds, this is professional tournament, for professional players.
His duty as a player was to give his best in that game! The match was meaningless. If this match was to decide who was last in the up and down groups it wouldn't have been played. The only reason GOM showed it was because NESTEA VS NANIWA DRAMA OMG VIEWER COUNTS!!!! And thats the Point! Some People stand up all night long or woke up early, or used their break at work to watch that re game between Nestea and Nani. Rly no one cant be satisfied with that performance from nani, not the 3games before, u can lose to stupid one base allin´s. Just imagine CR or Leo Messi act like this in a Classico after they are 3goals behind.
Would you have been more satisfied if NaNiwa poorly cannon rushed and left or poory proxied and left?
Probably not. Also it's not Naniwa's fault that his opponents decided to cheese him all three games, MMA did it without even scouting him.
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On December 14 2011 20:28 Ysellian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:20 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:On December 14 2011 20:19 iamke55 wrote:On December 14 2011 20:17 Klogbert wrote:On December 14 2011 20:16 Packawana wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 Klogbert wrote:On December 14 2011 20:12 Eviscerador wrote:On December 14 2011 20:04 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Forfeiting the match would be terrible sportsmanship. Probe rushing is even below that. It's a straight FU to the fans, opponent, and GOM. I'm glad GOM took the issue of professionalism seriously. Someone has to, and it's definitely not Naniwa. Droping mules or building CC on your defeated enemy base is not? For me that is the middle finger equivalent in videogames. Double standards everywhere... Holy crap didn't even think about this...wow does this makes GOM look like hypocrites. I'm officially done with GSL...still. But were those games actually played out? This is the main thing, this wasn't a form of BM that was meant to insult the opponent in the way dropping mules is. This is BM in the way that insults the tournament and insults the viewers. If you play for any team or any sport, you are expected to give your all no matter what your standing is, no matter how far down or far up you are. When it becomes blatantly obvious that you're not playing to win (and reaffirm that post-match), then you are not living to the professionalism that is supposed to be integral in any competition. You must not really watch sports then...the Indianapolis Colts certainly aren't giving their all. The Chicago Cubs at the end of every year don't even play their stars. Not sending your best players in a team sport is the equivalent in SC2 of trying out a new build that isn't as refined as your old one. No it isn't. That analogy is quite good actually.
No it isn't.
If you are not playing your best players, you are admitting defeat. You want it to be different because you want to hate on Nani for offending you bullshit sensibilities.
get over yourself.
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GOM should've given him a warning, not fuckin suspended him. Way to overreact...
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On December 14 2011 20:30 leBIGcrab wrote:
OP, can you make a poll please?
Is it fair to ban Nani from Code S?
Yes
No
Please. I'm really curious to see what the majority of TL thinks. We can already see that what we'll call "The Naniwa case" creates divisions.
theres already a poll on another thread
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I think 'respect' is the issue that should be called into the argument, not 'abusive behavior'. Putting in no effort in a match which is being televised and still determines position in a 'best of the best' league is completely disrespectful, especially throwing it he way he did. Still I think the entire Starcraft community including it's professionals will learn from this.
I laughed though when I saw it because after seeing so many awesome matches previously, a 'lame' game was amusing, just my 2cents
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On December 14 2011 20:29 ander wrote:
This thread is one of the biggest jokes i think i've ever seen on teamliquid. The amount of hypocrisy is beyond belief.
It was a meaningless game; if you've ever even slightly payed attention to sport before, you'll know that there are indeed such things as meaningless games.
If you support GSL's decision, then you also probably support the removal of manner mules, people pulling scv's, and MC's throat slash. You cannot say that he threw the game; he obviously could have just 4gated and nobody would have cried. What if nestea was 6pooling?
What about the fact that idra has previously outright refused to play matches? Holy shit, everyone grab your pitchfork.
This is an embarrassment.
I think you are confusing a probe rush with a 6 pool. A 6 pool is a strategy that actually has a chance of winning no matter how small it is. Not to mention 6-pool is actually a good strategy on Tal'Darim Alter lol..
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On December 14 2011 20:30 Weemoed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:28 TheDwf wrote:On December 14 2011 20:27 Dreamgzer wrote:
Also, as I said in another post; GOMtv will lose it's Sweden support. The universe collapses. GOM viewers per country (top 5): 1. United States 2. Canada 3. Sweden 4. Australia 5. England
A very good point.
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On December 14 2011 20:25 mTw|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:22 ggrrg wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 Sailincieri wrote:
Kids, this is obvious decision, you should understand why...
GSL is tournament for professional players, playing is profession, not some kind of fun.
In GSL they play for audience! Not for themselves. Do you think in normal JOB you can say to your boss that you have bad humor and dont wanna work? NO!
Naniwa, no matter what he think, should just sit in that booth and give fight with all his heart! To respect Korean audience, NesTea, GSL stuff, online audience etc.
This match wasnt meaningless, if not for Naniwa it has meaning for audience, probably for NesTea...
This is not a playground for 3yo kinds, this is professional tournament, for professional players.
His duty as a player was to give his best in that game! With all his heart!? Do you really think that any progamer can do this after being eliminated in the most frustrating manner in 3 extremely close games? For Nestea and Naniwa it stopped being a tournament the moment they got 0-3. From them on it became an annoying waste of time. Also, it's quite disrespectful to start a post with "Kids"... Really? Does FC Munich just quit the field when they are down 0-3 in the 80 minute? Does Hamilton decide to just not drive the last 3 races if he can't be world champion? Your comparison makes me sick. They are professionals and they should act like they are.
No because they could still come back or get a better score for future games. And no because he can place higher in the final rankings and earn more money. The thing is these games did not matter AT ALL. If Nestea won wouldn't change anything for anyone than if Naniwa won. The tournament was already over the match was a joke.
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There are better ways to trow ZvP 
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On December 14 2011 20:25 mTw|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:22 ggrrg wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 Sailincieri wrote:
Kids, this is obvious decision, you should understand why...
GSL is tournament for professional players, playing is profession, not some kind of fun.
In GSL they play for audience! Not for themselves. Do you think in normal JOB you can say to your boss that you have bad humor and dont wanna work? NO!
Naniwa, no matter what he think, should just sit in that booth and give fight with all his heart! To respect Korean audience, NesTea, GSL stuff, online audience etc.
This match wasnt meaningless, if not for Naniwa it has meaning for audience, probably for NesTea...
This is not a playground for 3yo kinds, this is professional tournament, for professional players.
His duty as a player was to give his best in that game! With all his heart!? Do you really think that any progamer can do this after being eliminated in the most frustrating manner in 3 extremely close games? For Nestea and Naniwa it stopped being a tournament the moment they got 0-3. From them on it became an annoying waste of time. Also, it's quite disrespectful to start a post with "Kids"... Really? Does FC Munich just quit the field when they are down 0-3 in the 80 minute? Does Hamilton decide to just not drive the last 3 races if he can't be world champion? Your comparison makes me sick. They are professionals and they should act like they are.
I don't think you quite understand, in all of those examples you gave, still trying to win can affect yourself and OTHERS, the game against nestea couldn't effect anyone.
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On December 14 2011 20:28 Dimon87 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:18 anrimayu wrote:On December 14 2011 20:11 Dimon87 wrote:
I guess the "global" part of the GOM.tv did not apply here. Really dissapointing. no naniwa = no longer global Let's ignore every other foreigners in the gsl because using hyperboles is cool What i meant was that this decision is fully based on korean culture and it seems they do not care about the west. Way to harsh punishment.
I wonder why a Korean tournament ran by Koreans in Korea sponsored by Korean companies are making decisions based on Korean culture? It just doesn't make sense.
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I don't even know what to say. Wtf GOM  Really, taking away a code S seed, whitch he got after a 2. place in MLG, in November. Getting a DQ from gom. That's so fucking unfair, and then just inviting Sen... I have nothing agenst Sen and he is an awesome player, but still, Naniwa deserved this, he has practised so hard in Korea, and he finally got to code S. The match didn't count at all! just christ. He got cheesed 3 times, and just almost lost each game. Sorry GOM, im refunding my 240$ ticket.
Favoring Idra and Sen like this, im sorry. I have nothing against Idra but still. fuck this.
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Imagine anyone throwing like this in any other sport. They would get SEVERELY punished if not removed from the league. Gom is making a good decision to punish Naniwa, though it may seem to be a bit harsh.
Players are regularly suspended by their own team for dogging it in games. I wouldn't even be surprised if it jeopardized his sponsorship. You're playing on television/a stream being paid for by people. You need to at least have the decency to put forth an effort, even if it's a super cheesy 2 gate zealot proxy rush or a 4 gate. It is very different.
What Naniwa did is the equivalent to sitting in the middle of the court of an meaningless NBA game versus just trying to throw alleyoops and shoot 3s all games. Guess which one would get you kicked out.
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On December 14 2011 20:29 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:27 myk3 wrote:
The guys are called Pro-Gamers, that implies they are "Professionals" at what they do. I don't see any Professional in any other sport forfeit the chance to beat one of the top 5 other contenders in that sport, regardless of what tournament situation they are in. I am neither a hater nor fanboi of Naniwa, I really like to watch his games, because he is "sooo good at SC2" (as some casters we know and love might put it) but the attitude he is showing might come back and bite him some day. You either want to be the best (or one of the best) or you are in it just for the money.
From an observers point of view (as is the only one that we viewers have - don´t pretend it is otherwise, none of you actually knows the exact development of events right at the event was - If Nani wanted to forfeit and they didn´t let him as someone stated, or if he set down in his boots, was pissed and an a split second decided "well, I dont want to play this out right now") I think GOM´s actions are completele justified.
It is not about BM being pinned to a disrespectful strategy (this goes out to you "double standard guys"), it is about how he executed that strategy. The BM for me lies in the fact that he didn´t micro at all - so his play was bound to fail. Had anyone ever pulled off to 7 probe rush Nestea and beat him with probe micro, the crowd would go wild. (Not that I think it would be possible but... you get the point)
TLDR;
Professionals don´t mess up like that. Yay GOM - keep up the quality! i agree with this- up to the punishment. Naniwa broke no rules, yet is being punished anyway. Is what he did poor sportsmanship- maybe, almost certainly. That's irrelevant though. There is no specific rule that doesn't let a player probe rush- the closest one is "ban anyone unfit to be a progamer". There's no rule against probe-rushing, and technically it's a strat- even if it's one that has little to no chance of working. What he did was in no way against the rules, which is why I think the decision was wrong.
it's against the rule you quoted.
there are ultimately going to be some rules left up to discretion for just this reason. they don't want to ban probe rushes, they want to ban players who admit to throwing a game and do so in the most blatant way possible.
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You can't "fix" this by changing teams.
Time for Naniwa to grow up and take responsibility for his actions.
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On December 14 2011 20:19 Nate.F wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:19 Clearout wrote:On December 14 2011 20:18 Gaxton wrote:
To all the upset boycott/petition/"occupy Gomtv" people out there, see you back in the GSL LR threards next week. Won't see me! doubt it <3 No really, I discovered honcast and have skyrim. No need to pay money and invest my time into something that I no longer support. I will come back to watch when naniwa's ban is over though.
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4713 Posts
This was the right move from GOM TV and I support them for doing this.
Like it or not gaming is now becoming a profession, you have to behave and act in a certain way, to be respectful and not offend anyone, the same its done in other sports. GOM did the right thing to show that, behavior like this will not be tolerated.
I'm quite sure the majority of people are raging because they suspect Korean bias from GOM and also view Naniwa as sort of our "foreign hero".
Consider that, when one of their own, Slayers_Coca started a matchfixing scandal he was quickly forced to give up his Code S and if he wouldn't have done it GOM would have done it at least.
Secondly, why should we forgive Naniwa? Just because he is a foreigner? The rules are for all, Naniwa messed up and deserved this. In actual fact the majority of the people here have a distorted outlook on reality, they think that, just because you are a great player/personality you can afford to be a jerk in life and just piss over everyone. That is NOT how the world works, nor how it is meant to work. The people offended by GOMs decision should be offended by Naniwa's gesture and should re-view their outlook on life.
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On December 14 2011 20:27 myk3 wrote:
The guys are called Pro-Gamers, that implies they are "Professionals" at what they do. I don't see any Professional in any other sport forfeit the chance to beat one of the top 5 other contenders in that sport, regardless of what tournament situation they are in. I am neither a hater nor fanboi of Naniwa, I really like to watch his games, because he is "sooo good at SC2" (as some casters we know and love might put it) but the attitude he is showing might come back and bite him some day. You either want to be the best (or one of the best) or you are in it just for the money.
TLDR;
Professionals don´t mess up like that. Yay GOM - keep up the quality!
Apologies for bad english :>
sorry nestea is at the moment far from being top5 contenders in sc2. Naniwa has already shown he can beat him, there was no grudge match, naniwa has no grudge against nestea, he knows he's better than him and doesn't need to prove it every single time
also all the haters saying how bad Naniwa is in Korea, have you actually watched the games? I doubt cause then you wouldn't be talking like that. All his games were really close and he played really well even by korean standards.
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I sympathize with Naniwa greatly and do not consider his actions to be totally out of bounds but; everyone on this forum has to remember that this happened in Korea. I don't think this would've caused much (if any) trouble if it happened MLG or DH but different culture means different norms. Naniwa should've known to abide by those. He's been in Korea long enough to know that this kind of behavior is heavily frowned upon, and should've respected the tournament and just played out that last game.
Being a pro means knowing what you can do where you can do it. Naniwa made a serious error in judgment here.
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I'd say they're stretching it a bit when using that rule as the reason. I didn't see the actual game, so I don't know if Naniwa tried to micro his probes or not.
Anyway, this won't change a lot. Naniwa and anyone else in a situation like he was will simply go for some rush that at least has some semblance of strategy. Well you never know with Naniwa I guess, but I hope he changes, even if it's only enough for stuff like this not to happen again.
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EPT
