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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
For all the people who are saying there not going to buy the year pass for GSL because of this are ridiculous. if your were going to buy a year full of game because of one player who at any point can be knocked down to code B in one season is silly. and also he could make back in to code S by next season cause he still has a code A spot i believe.
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On December 15 2011 04:28 tykonn wrote:
he was intentionally losing without any consideration for his fans and the paying viewers.
What's the big difference from people cheesing then? Shouldn't they be banned too, since their short games don't show any consideration for fans and the paying viewers?
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On December 15 2011 04:41 AntiSleep wrote:
Why did Naniwa fly out to korea to train? To win Code S. I feel this is a bad move for GomTV, yeah he may have thrown that game away but you had to see it coming. Like 0-3 anyone that knew naniwa you would expect him to do sumthing cheesy especially when it was nestea too he didn't really care since he already beat him twice.
I just hope Naniwa will stay in korea now, since his reputation in the korean community is going to be rough now.
There would be no problem if he did something cheesy.
HE LOST ON PURPOSE.
THAT IS NOTHING LIKE CHEESING, FUCKING CHAMPIONSHIPS HAVE BEEN WON BY CHEESING.
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To everyone who keeps bringing up FBH: it's worth noting that KESPA did ban FBH-style ceremonies eventually (if I remember right).
At the same time, FBH was a fan favorite who did ceremonies bigger and better than anyone else before him. He was probably really good for business! Naniwa isn't really a fan favorite (he might have been one outside Korea, but I'm pretty sure the entire community is quite polarized about him by now) and wasn't doing anything fun or interesting for the fans to see, nor was he winning a game he played to the best of his ability (thereby showing respect for his opponent), nor does he have any station within the Korean community on which to place his soapbox and make a statement about the tournament format through his in-game actions.
So please, stop bringing up FBH. The contexts are not even remotely similar.
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On December 15 2011 04:40 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:29 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:26 Stropheum wrote:On December 15 2011 04:19 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:17 calgar wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 calgar wrote:On December 15 2011 04:11 ExO_ wrote:Do you realize what precedent this sets? A good one, IMO. One along the lines of "break our rules and disrespect fans and the sport and you'll see consequences". What rule was broken? Did you bother to read the OP? Warning or disqualification - 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때 - During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours No, I read the OP and I think this is bullshit. What he did wasn't "abusive behavious" and its a HUGE stretch to call it such. he played the game how he choose to and then lost because of it. It was not abusive to the audience of opponent in any way. He's not required to play the game how they want. This was clearly just an excuse to boot him because they did not approve of what he did, rather than as a punishment for an actual rule violation. you think a moving your probes and leaning back in your chair isn't abusive and insulting? you're saying he chose to play the game the way he wanted, but he wasn't playing the game. a rank 99 bronze player has more apm than that. a rank 99 bronze player could've held that "strategy". Fact of the matter is, he refused to play the game. It's not splitting hairs between what's a "strategy" and what isn't. He didn't play. You physically have to be touching the computer to actually be playing the game. No you don't. It is not your right to tell anybody how to play the game, nor is it GOM's right. Did his units on screen move? If so, he was playing the game. yes he threw it, yes it was obvious. And did it affect the tournament in any way shape or form? No. While I agree he should've at least played the game, I disagree that GSL should be able to punish him in this way. he earned his spot. Format changes and a false rule breaking call should not be enough to take that away from him. I worry for the next westerner who offends the guys running GSL, who gets booted for another bullshit reason You are right, GOM can't tell players how to play the game. But they can tell them TO play the games that they are paid to play, and boxing probes, a moving, taking hands off keyboard is not playing the game. I fully support GOMtv in their disicion to punish naniwa, and I mean really with how he's been acting lately someone had to draw the line. Sure it wasn't MLG for having their tournament called a joke and for that whole thing with him watching the replay of the restarted game, but GOMtv decided to step up and draw the line. And if they haven't, somewhere down the road another tournament would have had to, and then they would be the ones blamed by all the fanboys.
Why would they have had to do that in the future? If your tournament structure does not force players to play pointless matches, why would it ever be a problem? The problem was with the tournament structure.
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United States284 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:37 Master_Blaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:35 Avril_Lavigne wrote:On December 15 2011 04:19 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:17 calgar wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 calgar wrote:On December 15 2011 04:11 ExO_ wrote:Do you realize what precedent this sets? A good one, IMO. One along the lines of "break our rules and disrespect fans and the sport and you'll see consequences". What rule was broken? Did you bother to read the OP? Warning or disqualification - 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때 - During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours No, I read the OP and I think this is bullshit. What he did wasn't "abusive behavious" and its a HUGE stretch to call it such. he played the game how he choose to and then lost because of it. It was not abusive to the audience of opponent in any way. He's not required to play the game how they want. This was clearly just an excuse to boot him because they did not approve of what he did, rather than as a punishment for an actual rule violation. It's an insult to the audience because people pay to subscribe to watch GOMtv. People stay up till 5 am to watch top quality CODE S performance. Naniwas behaviors affects the credibility that GOM tv has in providing entertaining matches. Stop bullshitting and just admit that you wanna marry Naniwa and have his babies. Lets just have a bunch of Naniwa's play in a single tournament where they all are free to act childish and do w/e the hell they want and if they don't get what they want then fuck it all. This tournament seems doomed to fail because no one would want to play each other because everyone in the tournament are just little kids. Who are you (or GOM) to force two DQ players to play at 100%? Losing motivation is human and we should feel sympathy for them. Apparently some people think that being a professional you are just a robot that plays for money.
No one was expecting him to play at 100%. People were just expecting he would respect the integrity of the tournament and at least put on a good show for the fans. He got paid to play 4 games. In any other profession, if you just up and decided to not come in on the 4th day of the week, you would be reprimanded in some way. This is no different.
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On December 15 2011 04:41 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:39 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 15 2011 04:29 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:26 Stropheum wrote:On December 15 2011 04:19 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:17 calgar wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 calgar wrote:On December 15 2011 04:11 ExO_ wrote:Do you realize what precedent this sets? A good one, IMO. One along the lines of "break our rules and disrespect fans and the sport and you'll see consequences". What rule was broken? Did you bother to read the OP? Warning or disqualification - 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때 - During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours No, I read the OP and I think this is bullshit. What he did wasn't "abusive behavious" and its a HUGE stretch to call it such. he played the game how he choose to and then lost because of it. It was not abusive to the audience of opponent in any way. He's not required to play the game how they want. This was clearly just an excuse to boot him because they did not approve of what he did, rather than as a punishment for an actual rule violation. you think a moving your probes and leaning back in your chair isn't abusive and insulting? you're saying he chose to play the game the way he wanted, but he wasn't playing the game. a rank 99 bronze player has more apm than that. a rank 99 bronze player could've held that "strategy". Fact of the matter is, he refused to play the game. It's not splitting hairs between what's a "strategy" and what isn't. He didn't play. You physically have to be touching the computer to actually be playing the game. No you don't. It is not your right to tell anybody how to play the game, nor is it GOM's right. Did his units on screen move? If so, he was playing the game. yes he threw it, yes it was obvious. And did it affect the tournament in any way shape or form? No. While I agree he should've at least played the game, I disagree that GSL should be able to punish him in this way. he earned his spot. Format changes and a false rule breaking call should not be enough to take that away from him. I worry for the next westerner who offends the guys running GSL, who gets booted for another bullshit reason According to this logic, Savior was justified in match-fixing because that's how he chose to play the game. He was actually physically playing the game after all, right? This is a different situation and you know it. Throwing the game for monetary reward and being a broker for others to do so, is obviously illegal, and wrong, and disrespectful, the whole 9 yards. Throwing a game because you cannot advance in the tournament no matter what you do, and are feeling down about your previous play in the tournament, is an entirely other thing.
Match-fixing for monetary gain is worse - that's why those players were banned from Brood War for life. That said, match-fixing is just wrong on so many levels, and doing what Nani did fits the bill perfectly. He purposely took an action in the game that gave the win to his opponent.
Why would they have had to do that in the future? If your tournament structure does not force players to play pointless matches, why would it ever be a problem? The problem was with the tournament structure.
Round robin is an incredibly common tournament structure and professionals from all over the world still at least play the fucking game even if it's meaningless.
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On December 15 2011 04:43 kappadevin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:37 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:35 Avril_Lavigne wrote:On December 15 2011 04:19 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:17 calgar wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 calgar wrote:On December 15 2011 04:11 ExO_ wrote:Do you realize what precedent this sets? A good one, IMO. One along the lines of "break our rules and disrespect fans and the sport and you'll see consequences". What rule was broken? Did you bother to read the OP? Warning or disqualification - 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때 - During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours No, I read the OP and I think this is bullshit. What he did wasn't "abusive behavious" and its a HUGE stretch to call it such. he played the game how he choose to and then lost because of it. It was not abusive to the audience of opponent in any way. He's not required to play the game how they want. This was clearly just an excuse to boot him because they did not approve of what he did, rather than as a punishment for an actual rule violation. It's an insult to the audience because people pay to subscribe to watch GOMtv. People stay up till 5 am to watch top quality CODE S performance. Naniwas behaviors affects the credibility that GOM tv has in providing entertaining matches. Stop bullshitting and just admit that you wanna marry Naniwa and have his babies. Lets just have a bunch of Naniwa's play in a single tournament where they all are free to act childish and do w/e the hell they want and if they don't get what they want then fuck it all. This tournament seems doomed to fail because no one would want to play each other because everyone in the tournament are just little kids. Who are you (or GOM) to force two DQ players to play at 100%? Losing motivation is human and we should feel sympathy for them. Apparently some people think that being a professional you are just a robot that plays for money. No one was expecting him to play at 100%. People were just expecting he would respect the integrity of the tournament and at least put on a good show for the fans. He got paid to play 4 games. In any other profession, if you just up and decided to not come in on the 4th day of the week, you would be reprimanded in some way. This is no different.
First of all he did play the 4th game, and secondly he wasn't paid to play 4 games, he was paid for his placing in the tournament.
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I am not sure if the punishment is too harsh or not, but I am not sure I am able to judge what is fair either. This is what GOMTV has decided and it's their decision to make. Anyway I think some form of punishment should follow after such actions. Other tournaments should start enforcing their rules much stricter as well imo.
Over all I was sad that I couldn't watch the Naniwa vs. Nestea match which is why I bought Blizzard Cup tickets in the first place. I think Nestea would have given his best, no matter how "unimportant" that match is.. considering what he said in the press conference. And so this was a chance for Naniwa to proof that he can beat him anytime. Even loosing with a cheese because he is on tilt would have been understandable. But giving up like that is kind of weak.
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On December 15 2011 04:42 Lord Lunga wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:28 tykonn wrote:
he was intentionally losing without any consideration for his fans and the paying viewers.
What's the big difference from people cheesing then? Shouldn't they be banned too, since their short games don't show any consideration for fans and the paying viewers?
Cheesing can win. A Probe rush cannot win under any circumstances (besides your opponent having a medical emergency) and Nani knew this.
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On December 15 2011 04:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:41 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:39 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 15 2011 04:29 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:26 Stropheum wrote:On December 15 2011 04:19 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:17 calgar wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 calgar wrote:On December 15 2011 04:11 ExO_ wrote:Do you realize what precedent this sets? A good one, IMO. One along the lines of "break our rules and disrespect fans and the sport and you'll see consequences". What rule was broken? Did you bother to read the OP? Warning or disqualification - 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때 - During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours No, I read the OP and I think this is bullshit. What he did wasn't "abusive behavious" and its a HUGE stretch to call it such. he played the game how he choose to and then lost because of it. It was not abusive to the audience of opponent in any way. He's not required to play the game how they want. This was clearly just an excuse to boot him because they did not approve of what he did, rather than as a punishment for an actual rule violation. you think a moving your probes and leaning back in your chair isn't abusive and insulting? you're saying he chose to play the game the way he wanted, but he wasn't playing the game. a rank 99 bronze player has more apm than that. a rank 99 bronze player could've held that "strategy". Fact of the matter is, he refused to play the game. It's not splitting hairs between what's a "strategy" and what isn't. He didn't play. You physically have to be touching the computer to actually be playing the game. No you don't. It is not your right to tell anybody how to play the game, nor is it GOM's right. Did his units on screen move? If so, he was playing the game. yes he threw it, yes it was obvious. And did it affect the tournament in any way shape or form? No. While I agree he should've at least played the game, I disagree that GSL should be able to punish him in this way. he earned his spot. Format changes and a false rule breaking call should not be enough to take that away from him. I worry for the next westerner who offends the guys running GSL, who gets booted for another bullshit reason According to this logic, Savior was justified in match-fixing because that's how he chose to play the game. He was actually physically playing the game after all, right? This is a different situation and you know it. Throwing the game for monetary reward and being a broker for others to do so, is obviously illegal, and wrong, and disrespectful, the whole 9 yards. Throwing a game because you cannot advance in the tournament no matter what you do, and are feeling down about your previous play in the tournament, is an entirely other thing. Match-fixing for monetary gain is worse - that's why those players were banned from Brood War for life. That said, match-fixing is just wrong on so many levels, and doing what Nani did fits the bill perfectly. He purposely took an action in the game that gave the win to his opponent.
Match-fixing, and throwing a game are not the same thing. When the entire Savior situation was going down, I remember how up in arms the community was (in particular listening to Nal_Ra talk about it was pretty moving in an angry sort of way). But this isn't the same thing. I hope you understand what I mean, match-fixing implies he's fixing it for somebody else, or for betting, or for another purpose other than he didn't want to play a pointless match where the outcome was irrelevant.
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On December 15 2011 04:40 Asymmetric wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:30 Talack wrote:
Still can't believe people are defending naniwa for being so disrespectful for the korean community and GOM's tournament. : /
Dudes...He dissed YOU the most. It's not some "oh it wasn't super significant" issue, it was a huge act of disrespect and he's getting punished for it. GOM is giving seeds to people who actually want to play (Well idra...lol at least he'll try for the first couple minutes ^^ ) now. As a long term paying GOM subscriber he did me a great service. I was pissed off that they were even going to broadcast this match. I don't want my time wasted by a pointless bo1 exhibition match between these two after they'be both just been knocked out. Thankfully Naniwa ended it swiftly and got straight to the MMA polt match. I agree with what Khaldor said on his stream, had this match meant anything what so ever then what Naniwa did would of been a problem. As it stands though the match should of never even been broadcast and the players allowed to forfeit.
Notoriously, one can not simply speak up and tell that a format and/or broadcast schedule is, in their opinion, flawed. No, he must engage in some kind of unannounced, unexpected overly theatrical act; bonus points if that act is disrespectful and/or rebellious. Leave the screen room, this is not Hollywood.
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Why are people so harsh to someone who obviously didn't comprehend the full "ramifications" of his actions. He said he was probe rushing because he didn't feel he could show a real game in the state he was in, and people get mad at him because he just ended it quicker. He apologized already, and things are just spiraling out of control. I feel like Gom got the impression they "Had" to do something so they did something drastic, and this is just too extreme. Honestly, I'll still watch, but I'm very disappointed.
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How is this situation any different than a professional sports team sitting their best players before the playoffs? Or when a game is blown out and the left fielder comes in to pitch...
It was a useless game, and all sports have them.
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it wasn't just a probe rush, it was a probe rush where he didn't micro lol
Guy gave up, so gom gave up on him
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On December 15 2011 04:43 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:40 hunts wrote:On December 15 2011 04:29 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:26 Stropheum wrote:On December 15 2011 04:19 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:17 calgar wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 calgar wrote:On December 15 2011 04:11 ExO_ wrote:Do you realize what precedent this sets? A good one, IMO. One along the lines of "break our rules and disrespect fans and the sport and you'll see consequences". What rule was broken? Did you bother to read the OP? Warning or disqualification - 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때 - During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours No, I read the OP and I think this is bullshit. What he did wasn't "abusive behavious" and its a HUGE stretch to call it such. he played the game how he choose to and then lost because of it. It was not abusive to the audience of opponent in any way. He's not required to play the game how they want. This was clearly just an excuse to boot him because they did not approve of what he did, rather than as a punishment for an actual rule violation. you think a moving your probes and leaning back in your chair isn't abusive and insulting? you're saying he chose to play the game the way he wanted, but he wasn't playing the game. a rank 99 bronze player has more apm than that. a rank 99 bronze player could've held that "strategy". Fact of the matter is, he refused to play the game. It's not splitting hairs between what's a "strategy" and what isn't. He didn't play. You physically have to be touching the computer to actually be playing the game. No you don't. It is not your right to tell anybody how to play the game, nor is it GOM's right. Did his units on screen move? If so, he was playing the game. yes he threw it, yes it was obvious. And did it affect the tournament in any way shape or form? No. While I agree he should've at least played the game, I disagree that GSL should be able to punish him in this way. he earned his spot. Format changes and a false rule breaking call should not be enough to take that away from him. I worry for the next westerner who offends the guys running GSL, who gets booted for another bullshit reason You are right, GOM can't tell players how to play the game. But they can tell them TO play the games that they are paid to play, and boxing probes, a moving, taking hands off keyboard is not playing the game. I fully support GOMtv in their disicion to punish naniwa, and I mean really with how he's been acting lately someone had to draw the line. Sure it wasn't MLG for having their tournament called a joke and for that whole thing with him watching the replay of the restarted game, but GOMtv decided to step up and draw the line. And if they haven't, somewhere down the road another tournament would have had to, and then they would be the ones blamed by all the fanboys. Why would they have had to do that in the future? If your tournament structure does not force players to play pointless matches, why would it ever be a problem? The problem was with the tournament structure.
Because the way nanniwa acts he is constantly either borderline breaking tournament rules or flat out breaking tournament rules. This time he flat out broke a rule in a tournament that cares about its reputation and pride more so than just being nice and letting people run around doing whatever they want. I'm not saying he would go and throw games in another tournament and get banned. I'm saying he would go and continue acting like he has been and break more rules at another tournament and finally get punished, and then all his fanboys would flame that tournament. It doesn't matter if the game was pointless or not, GOM paid him to be there and to play all his matches, he refused to do so. He got what was a long time coming to him because he chose to act like a kid in the one tournament that actually enforces its rules.
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because naniwa has a history when it comes to stuff like this. A long history.
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On December 15 2011 04:46 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:39 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 15 2011 04:29 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:26 Stropheum wrote:On December 15 2011 04:19 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:17 calgar wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 calgar wrote:
[quote]A good one, IMO. One along the lines of "break our rules and disrespect fans and the sport and you'll see consequences". What rule was broken? Did you bother to read the OP? Warning or disqualification - 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때 - During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours No, I read the OP and I think this is bullshit. What he did wasn't "abusive behavious" and its a HUGE stretch to call it such. he played the game how he choose to and then lost because of it. It was not abusive to the audience of opponent in any way. He's not required to play the game how they want. This was clearly just an excuse to boot him because they did not approve of what he did, rather than as a punishment for an actual rule violation. you think a moving your probes and leaning back in your chair isn't abusive and insulting? you're saying he chose to play the game the way he wanted, but he wasn't playing the game. a rank 99 bronze player has more apm than that. a rank 99 bronze player could've held that "strategy". Fact of the matter is, he refused to play the game. It's not splitting hairs between what's a "strategy" and what isn't. He didn't play. You physically have to be touching the computer to actually be playing the game. No you don't. It is not your right to tell anybody how to play the game, nor is it GOM's right. Did his units on screen move? If so, he was playing the game. yes he threw it, yes it was obvious. And did it affect the tournament in any way shape or form? No. While I agree he should've at least played the game, I disagree that GSL should be able to punish him in this way. he earned his spot. Format changes and a false rule breaking call should not be enough to take that away from him. I worry for the next westerner who offends the guys running GSL, who gets booted for another bullshit reason According to this logic, Savior was justified in match-fixing because that's how he chose to play the game. He was actually physically playing the game after all, right? This is a different situation and you know it. Throwing the game for monetary reward and being a broker for others to do so, is obviously illegal, and wrong, and disrespectful, the whole 9 yards. Throwing a game because you cannot advance in the tournament no matter what you do, and are feeling down about your previous play in the tournament, is an entirely other thing. Match-fixing for monetary gain is worse - that's why those players were banned from Brood War for life. That said, match-fixing is just wrong on so many levels, and doing what Nani did fits the bill perfectly. He purposely took an action in the game that gave the win to his opponent. Match-fixing, and throwing a game are not the same thing. When the entire Savior situation was going down, I remember how up in arms the community was (in particular listening to Nal_Ra talk about it was pretty moving in an angry sort of way). But this isn't the same thing. I hope you understand what I mean, match-fixing implies he's fixing it for somebody else, or for betting, or for another purpose other than he didn't want to play a pointless match where the outcome was irrelevant.
They have different motives, different methods, but they are the same concept - you are purposely predetermining the game (either between the two of you or just intending to throw away the game and securing your opponent's victory) which completely flies in the face of the spirit of competition, professionalism, and entertaining the fans which is what lets this industry run in the first place.
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Wonder what would've happened of nestea 6 pooled x)
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On December 15 2011 04:46 ranshaked wrote:
How is this situation any different than a professional sports team sitting their best players before the playoffs? Or when a game is blown out and the left fielder comes in to pitch...
It was a useless game, and all sports have them.
Except for the "B-Teamers" actually on the field which try their best to impress the coach/fans/everyone and therefore often deliver a very entertaining game. That game might has not the highest quality and isn't important at all to the league. BUT the guys on the field will do their best.
What Naniwa did was sitting down on the field and letting the other team score.
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EPT
