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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
On December 15 2011 04:42 Vasily17 wrote:
For all the people who are saying there not going to buy the year pass for GSL because of this are ridiculous. if your were going to buy a year full of game because of one player who at any point can be knocked down to code B in one season is silly. and also he could make back in to code S by next season cause he still has a code A spot i believe.
I'm sorry but do you seriously not understand? It's not because we just want to see Naniwa but it's about not supporting an organization that makes these kind of decisions.
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On December 15 2011 04:37 Arun wrote:
It's just one season anyway. There are so many other tourneys to compete in
Yes, and it is quite likely he will be earning many more code S spots through those other tournaments. The interesting question is if he will accept any of them. 
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On December 15 2011 04:42 Lord Lunga wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:28 tykonn wrote:
he was intentionally losing without any consideration for his fans and the paying viewers.
What's the big difference from people cheesing then? Shouldn't they be banned too, since their short games don't show any consideration for fans and the paying viewers?
People that cheese actually try. What did Naniwa do ? Only use his mouse to attack with his probes. Most cheeses actually takes some effort, high level cheeses is so well executed and well timed. That's my opinion on the difference.
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On December 15 2011 04:48 hawthwang wrote:
Wonder what would've happened of nestea 6 pooled x)
he would've won.
probe rush doesn't beat anything. it doesn't beat 6pool either.
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On December 15 2011 04:48 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:46 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:39 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 15 2011 04:29 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:26 Stropheum wrote:On December 15 2011 04:19 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:17 calgar wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 ExO_ wrote:
[quote]
What rule was broken? Did you bother to read the OP? Warning or disqualification - 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때 - During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours No, I read the OP and I think this is bullshit. What he did wasn't "abusive behavious" and its a HUGE stretch to call it such. he played the game how he choose to and then lost because of it. It was not abusive to the audience of opponent in any way. He's not required to play the game how they want. This was clearly just an excuse to boot him because they did not approve of what he did, rather than as a punishment for an actual rule violation. you think a moving your probes and leaning back in your chair isn't abusive and insulting? you're saying he chose to play the game the way he wanted, but he wasn't playing the game. a rank 99 bronze player has more apm than that. a rank 99 bronze player could've held that "strategy". Fact of the matter is, he refused to play the game. It's not splitting hairs between what's a "strategy" and what isn't. He didn't play. You physically have to be touching the computer to actually be playing the game. No you don't. It is not your right to tell anybody how to play the game, nor is it GOM's right. Did his units on screen move? If so, he was playing the game. yes he threw it, yes it was obvious. And did it affect the tournament in any way shape or form? No. While I agree he should've at least played the game, I disagree that GSL should be able to punish him in this way. he earned his spot. Format changes and a false rule breaking call should not be enough to take that away from him. I worry for the next westerner who offends the guys running GSL, who gets booted for another bullshit reason According to this logic, Savior was justified in match-fixing because that's how he chose to play the game. He was actually physically playing the game after all, right? This is a different situation and you know it. Throwing the game for monetary reward and being a broker for others to do so, is obviously illegal, and wrong, and disrespectful, the whole 9 yards. Throwing a game because you cannot advance in the tournament no matter what you do, and are feeling down about your previous play in the tournament, is an entirely other thing. Match-fixing for monetary gain is worse - that's why those players were banned from Brood War for life. That said, match-fixing is just wrong on so many levels, and doing what Nani did fits the bill perfectly. He purposely took an action in the game that gave the win to his opponent. Match-fixing, and throwing a game are not the same thing. When the entire Savior situation was going down, I remember how up in arms the community was (in particular listening to Nal_Ra talk about it was pretty moving in an angry sort of way). But this isn't the same thing. I hope you understand what I mean, match-fixing implies he's fixing it for somebody else, or for betting, or for another purpose other than he didn't want to play a pointless match where the outcome was irrelevant. which completely flies in the face of the spirit of competition, professionalism, and entertaining the fans which is what lets this industry run in the first place.
following any of the bolded is a good, respectful thing, but not a required one by law (by this I mean tournament rules and what not.) By turning it into one, you are setting a dangerous precedent.
Everyone is fine with it now. But wait and see the monster you created when somebody else gets booted, and this time you don't agree with it.
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On December 15 2011 04:46 ranshaked wrote:
How is this situation any different than a professional sports team sitting their best players before the playoffs? Or when a game is blown out and the left fielder comes in to pitch...
It was a useless game, and all sports have them.
Read the thread. It's completely different because even if you use 3rd string players in a pointless game, you're still playing the fucking game and trying to win. Naniwa was essentially not playing the game at all, or, if you want to be 100% technical and say that he was physically playing the game, he threw it, which is comparable to match-fixing.
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On December 15 2011 04:29 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:26 Stropheum wrote:On December 15 2011 04:19 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:17 calgar wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 calgar wrote:On December 15 2011 04:11 ExO_ wrote:Do you realize what precedent this sets? A good one, IMO. One along the lines of "break our rules and disrespect fans and the sport and you'll see consequences". What rule was broken? Did you bother to read the OP? Warning or disqualification - 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때 - During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours No, I read the OP and I think this is bullshit. What he did wasn't "abusive behavious" and its a HUGE stretch to call it such. he played the game how he choose to and then lost because of it. It was not abusive to the audience of opponent in any way. He's not required to play the game how they want. This was clearly just an excuse to boot him because they did not approve of what he did, rather than as a punishment for an actual rule violation. you think a moving your probes and leaning back in your chair isn't abusive and insulting? you're saying he chose to play the game the way he wanted, but he wasn't playing the game. a rank 99 bronze player has more apm than that. a rank 99 bronze player could've held that "strategy". Fact of the matter is, he refused to play the game. It's not splitting hairs between what's a "strategy" and what isn't. He didn't play. You physically have to be touching the computer to actually be playing the game. No you don't. It is not your right to tell anybody how to play the game, nor is it GOM's right. Did his units on screen move? If so, he was playing the game. yes he threw it, yes it was obvious. And did it affect the tournament in any way shape or form? No. While I agree he should've at least played the game, I disagree that GSL should be able to punish him in this way. he earned his spot. Format changes and a false rule breaking call should not be enough to take that away from him. I worry for the next westerner who offends the guys running GSL, who gets booted for another bullshit reason
To clarify a few things:
It is GOM's right to enforce their rules as they see fit. Doesn't mean it's fair or you have to like it. But knowing this community, you can expect a shitstorm on the forums if people don't agree.
If it's obvious you've thrown the game, then it's match fixing. GOM has made it very clear how they feel about this issue. While there is little "practical" difference between Probe rushing, proxy gating, 4 gating, or doing bizarre strats because you don't care about the game, there is a huge practical difference between executing those "strategies" to the best of your ability (thus playing the game the way you want, as you seem to think he has a right to do) and A-moving your Probes, taking your hands off the keyboard, refusing to micro, and then admitting afterwards you did it because "the game didn't matter."
You can't see the difference? This isn't a matter of him being persecuted for not playing the way they wanted him to play. If he had proxied, or 4 gated, and microed his units, his fans would have been disappointed, but no one (sane) would have accused him of throwing the match.
Also, Naniwa didn't earn anything. The GSL/MLG exchange doesn't apply to the 2012 season. GSL has two seeds that they plan on giving to foreigner players. Due to his results, they were considering giving Nani one of those seeds. Now they're going to give it to Sen instead. Is this so hard to understand? It's like dicking around at your job when you know there's a bonus about to go out and then complaining that it went to someone else.
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On December 15 2011 04:50 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:48 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 15 2011 04:46 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:39 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 15 2011 04:29 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:26 Stropheum wrote:On December 15 2011 04:19 ExO_ wrote:On December 15 2011 04:17 calgar wrote:
[quote]Did you bother to read the OP?
Warning or disqualification
- 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때
- During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours
No, I read the OP and I think this is bullshit. What he did wasn't "abusive behavious" and its a HUGE stretch to call it such. he played the game how he choose to and then lost because of it. It was not abusive to the audience of opponent in any way. He's not required to play the game how they want. This was clearly just an excuse to boot him because they did not approve of what he did, rather than as a punishment for an actual rule violation. you think a moving your probes and leaning back in your chair isn't abusive and insulting? you're saying he chose to play the game the way he wanted, but he wasn't playing the game. a rank 99 bronze player has more apm than that. a rank 99 bronze player could've held that "strategy". Fact of the matter is, he refused to play the game. It's not splitting hairs between what's a "strategy" and what isn't. He didn't play. You physically have to be touching the computer to actually be playing the game. No you don't. It is not your right to tell anybody how to play the game, nor is it GOM's right. Did his units on screen move? If so, he was playing the game. yes he threw it, yes it was obvious. And did it affect the tournament in any way shape or form? No. While I agree he should've at least played the game, I disagree that GSL should be able to punish him in this way. he earned his spot. Format changes and a false rule breaking call should not be enough to take that away from him. I worry for the next westerner who offends the guys running GSL, who gets booted for another bullshit reason According to this logic, Savior was justified in match-fixing because that's how he chose to play the game. He was actually physically playing the game after all, right? This is a different situation and you know it. Throwing the game for monetary reward and being a broker for others to do so, is obviously illegal, and wrong, and disrespectful, the whole 9 yards. Throwing a game because you cannot advance in the tournament no matter what you do, and are feeling down about your previous play in the tournament, is an entirely other thing. Match-fixing for monetary gain is worse - that's why those players were banned from Brood War for life. That said, match-fixing is just wrong on so many levels, and doing what Nani did fits the bill perfectly. He purposely took an action in the game that gave the win to his opponent. Match-fixing, and throwing a game are not the same thing. When the entire Savior situation was going down, I remember how up in arms the community was (in particular listening to Nal_Ra talk about it was pretty moving in an angry sort of way). But this isn't the same thing. I hope you understand what I mean, match-fixing implies he's fixing it for somebody else, or for betting, or for another purpose other than he didn't want to play a pointless match where the outcome was irrelevant. which completely flies in the face of the spirit of competition, professionalism, and entertaining the fans which is what lets this industry run in the first place. following any of the bolded is a good, respectful thing, but not a required one by law (by this I mean tournament rules and what not.) By turning it into one, you are setting a dangerous precedent. Everyone is fine with it now. But wait and see the monster you created when somebody else gets booted, and this time you don't agree with it.
I'm pretty sure just about every league for any kind of competition has penalties for unsportsmanlike conduct/not showing up and/or not playing the games you are scheduled and/or paid to play.
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Great... I'll never hear the end of the word "naniwa" for the next straight year since he went from BM'er to martyr in a single day.
I think I'm just gonna take a break from this site for awhile.
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Pretty silly to punish someone who didn't break any rules.
But that's just my opinion
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On December 15 2011 04:50 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:46 ranshaked wrote:
How is this situation any different than a professional sports team sitting their best players before the playoffs? Or when a game is blown out and the left fielder comes in to pitch...
It was a useless game, and all sports have them. Read the thread. It's completely different because even if you use 3rd string players in a pointless game, you're still playing the fucking game and trying to win. Naniwa was essentially not playing the game at all, or, if you want to be 100% technical and say that he was physically playing the game, he threw it, which is comparable to match-fixing.
You think playing 3rd string players is trying to win? Trying to win would be playing 1st stringers every game, whether it matters or not. To give the fans a good showing, and to be respectful to the other team. Does this sound familiar?
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On December 15 2011 04:49 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:46 ranshaked wrote:
How is this situation any different than a professional sports team sitting their best players before the playoffs? Or when a game is blown out and the left fielder comes in to pitch...
It was a useless game, and all sports have them. Except for the "B-Teamers" actually on the field which try their best to impress the coach/fans/everyone and therefore often deliver a very entertaining game. That game might has not the highest quality and isn't important at all to the league. BUT the guys on the field will do their best. What Naniwa did was sitting down on the field and letting the other team score.
So you're saying that at the end of blow outs the teams are still trying? Hell no. Haven't you seen ramirez play or any of them dropping balls in the outfield? Or not hustling to first base. This stuff happens in every single league, yet GOM has put up the ultimate sanction. They are making this seem like a huge issue, when in reality the game shouldn't have been played.
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Well, his behaviour could damage esports if is followed by others... Is this for the probe rush against nestea?
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On December 15 2011 04:52 Krymming wrote:
Pretty silly to punish someone who didn't break any rules.
But that's just my opinion
It is pretty silly to punish someone who didn't break any rules, you are right. Good thing GOMtv has a set of rules, one of which naniwa DID break, thereby earning his code S revocation.
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On December 15 2011 04:52 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:50 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 15 2011 04:46 ranshaked wrote:
How is this situation any different than a professional sports team sitting their best players before the playoffs? Or when a game is blown out and the left fielder comes in to pitch...
It was a useless game, and all sports have them. Read the thread. It's completely different because even if you use 3rd string players in a pointless game, you're still playing the fucking game and trying to win. Naniwa was essentially not playing the game at all, or, if you want to be 100% technical and say that he was physically playing the game, he threw it, which is comparable to match-fixing. You think playing 3rd string players is trying to win? Trying to win would be playing 1st stringers every game, whether it matters or not. To give the fans a good showing, and to be respectful to the other team. Does this sound familiar?
The 3rd stringers are still playing and trying to win, which would be comparable to Nani trying some crazy off-the-wall unorthodox strategy but still actually trying it instead of just completely throwing the game away. What Nani did would be like a team walking off of the field instead of playing the game their scheduled for, and I guarantee you that a team would be punished for that in just about any league in the world.
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On December 15 2011 04:50 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:46 ranshaked wrote:
How is this situation any different than a professional sports team sitting their best players before the playoffs? Or when a game is blown out and the left fielder comes in to pitch...
It was a useless game, and all sports have them. Read the thread. It's completely different because even if you use 3rd string players in a pointless game, you're still playing the fucking game and trying to win. Naniwa was essentially not playing the game at all, or, if you want to be 100% technical and say that he was physically playing the game, he threw it, which is comparable to match-fixing.
And you could say last year when the patriots i believe didn't start their A team against a team that was vowing for a playoff spot. If the patriots had played their best team, then the other team would have lost and never gotten into the playoffs.
Or in baseball when the #1 team plays a playoff contender, but chooses to rest their players because they've clinched the seed...meanwhile they throw the game with their 3rd string players and let the opposing team have an easy win.
Naniwa did this in ONE game out of how many? This happens all the time in sports.
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I really do not understand GOM's move here. Naniwa was not suppose to play this game, and they said he had to. This was the FIRST time they made someone play a game where both players were already out of the tournament so what did they think was going to happen?
Long story short, Naniwa came out with an apology right away and was the bigger man in my opinion who admited what he did and did not mean to disrespect anybody and was not meant to harm anyone. GOM needs to seriously just move on, accept the apology and learn from their own mistake. Bring Naniwa back, make a new rule clear and dont lose so many viewers over this silly thing.
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On December 15 2011 04:52 iloveav wrote:
Well, his behaviour could damage esports if is followed by others... Is this for the probe rush against nestea?
Hopefully his behaviour will benefit eSports by making tournament organisers eschew useless games.
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On December 15 2011 04:53 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:52 Krymming wrote:
Pretty silly to punish someone who didn't break any rules.
But that's just my opinion It is pretty silly to punish someone who didn't break any rules, you are right. Good thing GOMtv has a set of rules, one of which naniwa DID break, thereby earning his code S revocation.
What if GOM had a rule stating
"if we don't like the color shoes you are wearing, you will be banned"
Would that be legitimate? The are interpreting a rule that was meant to apply to situations like in game abusive language, and ridiculous ceremonies, etc...and apply it to a situation which it Doesn't fit at all.
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On December 15 2011 04:15 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:12 kappadevin wrote:
People are too busy looking at the individual event here too much. It wasn't the fact that he probe rushed that really set people off, it's the fact that he so clearly and blatantly threw the game. People who play showmatches don't have anything at stake, so should it be allowable for them to just throw those games completely?
There shouldn't need to be an explicit rule about this kind of behavior: it should be self explanatory. Imagine you tuned into a football game where one team had no possibility of making the playoffs and they decide to just not play any defense for the rest of the game. It's about respecting you opponent, your fans, and your tournament. He wasn't expected to play his fingers off, but he should at least have the respect for NesTea to give him a legitimate game.
Look at Choya. He was playing rock paper scissors against people for ladder games, and EVEN THOUGH that wasn't even affiliated with GOM at all, he received a ban from the GSTL. Are you going to argue there should have been a specific rule saying you can't rock paper scissors on the ladder? I hope this whole thing gives Naniwa a wake up call to fix his attitude. He "should" give NesTea a good game sure. But by no means does he have to. He is his own player, and his audience can't tell him how to play his games. I hate how everybody here just presumes he should have to do what they want for them. Bullshit. he can do what he wants. on the other hand, booting him from GSL, without any real rules broken is bullshit and a huge violation of GSL's duty. You can't just kick a player out because they don't like what they did....or evidently you can. Watch out IdrA, GSL might kick you out if you do something they don't like.
Yea, NaNiwa can do whatever he wants. GOMtv can also do whatever they want. They both live with the consequences of their actions. You really aren't making a point. GOM is an independent league and they can accept and deny whoever they want. They were going to invite NaNiwa and now they aren't. Who are you to tell them what to do?
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EPT
