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NaNiwa not invited to Code S - Page 111

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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.

Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum.
bigjenk
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1543 Posts
December 14 2011 12:25 GMT
#2201
On December 14 2011 21:24 Vari wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 21:23 iksi wrote:
Follow tournament rules. Get banned by the tournament. Now can someone explain me how this is making any sense. Ok, so Naniwa was a bit BM, so what ? like it was a first time you ever saw an aired live event where someone throws down a bit BM. Ok, so now we start banning ALL THE BM'ING players from EVERY major tournament. Its A KING IDEA - 2012 - ESPORTS dead.


he broke the rules


Rules that are so vague gom could literally ban at least half of the players in the gsl.
Ignore my opinions I am bad
Sanchonator
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia490 Posts
December 14 2011 12:25 GMT
#2202
On December 14 2011 21:24 trucane wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 21:23 eYeball wrote:
I don't know but that line with calling Naniwa a "amateur prize money hunter" really felt like below the belt from Mr.Chae.


Especially considering how amateur GOM is proven by the hacking incident and the plain text non encrypted sensitive information.


i believe you are mixing the GOM incident with the PSN incident ?
NHY
Profile Joined October 2010
1013 Posts
December 14 2011 12:25 GMT
#2203
On December 14 2011 21:21 ander wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 21:14 baoluvboa wrote:
On December 14 2011 21:12 ander wrote:
On December 14 2011 21:09 deth wrote:
i honestly dont know why so many people are trying to defend naniwa.

GSL is a business, naniwa is paid to play the tournament and is expected to act like a professional sportsman, especially important if he is to be playing professionally in korea.

People pay to watch GSL, the maps and games were determined beforehand. Even if the game was pointless, so many people wanted to see Naniwa vs Nestea as its just a great matchup, especially with the rivalry. Then naniwa throws it and disappoints everyone who paid for the season pass, despite nani getting guaranteed prize money from the tourney.

At the very least you owe it to your fans to play the game, even if you have no motivation for doing so. Everyone arguing otherwise needs to shove away their internet pitchforks and think about it from GSL's point of view.


Few people are defending naniwa; most are upset with GSL's ridiculous, ambiguous, and over the top reaction.



ridiculous - was in their rule
ambiguous - correct in term of their rules but historical analogies set by brood war time and past incidents have established a pretty clear definite of what proper conducts are for progamers.
over the top - same as ridiculous


Point #1 - Link me please, to the rule that says "worker rushing is suspendable."

Point #2 - basically the definition of ambiguous. That's completely open to interpretation, which is what makes it a stupid rule.

Point #3 - wp.


There's a rule since the beginning of GSL that says if GOM decides you are not fit to be a gamer, you can not participate in GSL. It's not tournament specific.
Vari
Profile Joined September 2010
United States532 Posts
December 14 2011 12:25 GMT
#2204
On December 14 2011 21:24 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 21:22 Vari wrote:
On December 14 2011 21:18 Ace.Xile wrote:
On December 14 2011 21:14 Vari wrote:
On December 14 2011 21:13 Ace.Xile wrote:
On December 14 2011 21:11 baoluvboa wrote:

"Naniwa played a game yesterday that is not professional. I have heard that he threw away the game because it doesn't benefit himself. I want to lecture him. Pro-gamer as an occupation is not a job where you just play games between other pro players. Corporations sponsor us because the existence of fans make e-sports a product that we are trying to create. But I believe the behaviour from Naniwa yesterday was such a behaviour that betrayed and looked down on the fans. I hope he thinks about what he did and do not play a game like that again."

From MC


I think it's funny that pro-gamers advocate giving up competition in order for entertainment, as if pro gamers are entertainers who just happen to be competitors..

where does it say anything about giving up competition?


Because to essentially cater to fans is anti competition. In the light of a competition where your competition has ended, and you still have a game left, you have one of two options, you either just forfeit the game like naniwa did, or you attempt to entertain fans by creating some sort of fake competitive image, which in itself just makes a mockery of real competition. If your a pro gamer the goal should be to worry about competition, not create games where you try to act like there's something on the line when there isn't. I just think it's utterly silly to bring in pro gamers to a competition, and then once it's effectively over expect them to be forced to play a fake competitive game or be banned. The only argument you could make against naniwa is that he's a dick for not just playing a fun game for his fans, but he didn't sign up for the competition to play fun games, he signed up to compete and once the competition was over he pretty much just didn't see the point in faking it.


"fake competitive image"... so suddenly players can't simply want to prove they are better than other players?



Why the FUCK DO THEY HAVE TO?


because they agreed to it when they agreed to the tourney they were paid to play it

and have some sense of self respect
Stroke Me Lady Fame
XRaDiiX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada1730 Posts
December 14 2011 12:25 GMT
#2205
On December 14 2011 21:23 eYeball wrote:
I don't know but that line with calling Naniwa a "amateur prize money hunter" really felt like below the belt from Mr.Chae.


I don't get it such a huge double standard from gomtv than they go and give two other foreigners Code S Spots for Free... this doesn't feel right at all.

I like IdrA and Sen and think they can do good in Code S but this isn't how its supposed to work and Naniwa deserves his Code S Spot he didn't really do anything wrong he had 3 Stressful games and didn't want to play the last one obviously (Especially since it had no bearing on his placement)
Never GG MKP | IdrA
Pwnographics
Profile Joined January 2011
New Zealand1097 Posts
December 14 2011 12:25 GMT
#2206
On December 14 2011 21:24 zanga wrote:

*Ban MC from all the (seemingly FUNNY, previously that is) things he's done. Including Thumbs down, Dancing outside the booth, Waving his finger at the camera.. and many more.

*Ban Bomber for having such a BM game against MC in some MLG (dont remember which). Putting down tons of command centers in the middle of the map, doing an "orange" with 10+ CC Scans and dropping mules so many times over.

*Ban NesTea since in the Blizzcon finals he so obviously threw his game away and was just trolling around.

Is that also "HONOUR"? Wtf

Never watching GOMTV again.


Did they get complaints from the viewership? No.

Did Naniwa get complaints? Fuck yes.
BigKahunaBurger
Profile Joined June 2011
Australia334 Posts
December 14 2011 12:25 GMT
#2207
On December 14 2011 21:21 Nadarath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 21:14 BigKahunaBurger wrote:
On December 14 2011 21:09 Keidy wrote:
This is so wrong

The argument that the korean culture is like this is fine, if they are living by their own rules.
But how can they do this to Nani saying his behaviour was unproffessional, when GSL themselves are beeing soooooo fucking unproffessional when they call him "amateur money hunter"

So much for the korean culter.

Terrible decision, and I have no respect for GSL/Korea atm




Oh. Flaming an entire country and culture for the actions taken by one company. Thats going to make you look like the true "proffessional" here.

NaniWa was invited to the Blizzard Cup, and was paid to play and provide games. He didn't do so and spat in the face of the fans as a result. Did anyone read the LR after it happened?

On December 13 2011 21:06 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
No respect to viewers, producers, casters and anyone else involved in making this tournament a success.

If there were betting lines out of these matches it's absolutely unacceptable regarding that as well. I doubt Naniwa researched that so it's morally the same decision.




I dont know if you just didnt watch Blizzard Cup or you are jus chosing to ignore the fact that Naniwa did play really good 3 matches that he lost
Why 99% of people ignore that fact and just keep shitting on Naniwa for stupid and pointless game against Nestea ?
I could even bet if that game was vs lets say Polt - no one would say anything about this. Its just this stupid shit that some people build around Nestea some sort of zealous religion. Nestea is just another player of many out there. Deal with that fact and stop treating him like holly cow.



It has nothing to do with him vs Nestea at all. Stop extrapolating. It could have been Naniwa vs. TheBest and it still would have been an issue.

NaniWa just gave up when he realised there was nothing in it for him anymore and royally screwed over paying customers.
Mycl
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia1370 Posts
December 14 2011 12:25 GMT
#2208
Reading through this thread just makes me look back to when Idra didn't GG Boxer in a NASL game and everyone in the LR thread took out their pitchforks and protested for GOM to step in and ban him from the GSL. Few months later and now people will defend players who throw games intentionally for everyone to see lol

Nadarath
Profile Joined July 2011
98 Posts
December 14 2011 12:26 GMT
#2209
On December 14 2011 21:22 mTw|NarutO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 21:18 careohx wrote:
Not only this but i also question giving free code S spots for popular players without them having to qualify. At least Naniwa did qualify. He didnt cheat or use any exploit. Korea needs to realize that SC2 is not only theirs like SC1 was and is now a global phenomenon. Things like these do not fly.


Fans need to realize its a Korean Product, the GSL. Even if foreigners can play in it, its their league. They run it and talk to sponsors. As mentioned before, a Korean would have suffered a way harsher penalty than that.


Yeah that whole situation made me open my eyes. That's why im not gona give any more support to GOM. Since it is Korean product that benefit only Korean viewers and just does not care about anyone more. Im not Korean so bye bye GSL.
iGX
Profile Joined June 2010
Australia414 Posts
December 14 2011 12:26 GMT
#2210
On December 14 2011 21:22 dolvlo wrote:
HAHAHAHA What a joke. Fuck you GOMtv, I'm done with you. I will never purchase another thing from you again, I will never watch another tournament run by you again. I sincerely hope you lose your license to broadcast exclusively in Korea.


with your childish attitude and decision to stop following GSL, GOM really isn't at a loss.
When your bases are ashes...then you have my permission to "GG".
lrofd
Profile Joined April 2011
United States187 Posts
December 14 2011 12:26 GMT
#2211
On December 14 2011 21:21 ander wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 21:14 baoluvboa wrote:
On December 14 2011 21:12 ander wrote:
On December 14 2011 21:09 deth wrote:
i honestly dont know why so many people are trying to defend naniwa.

GSL is a business, naniwa is paid to play the tournament and is expected to act like a professional sportsman, especially important if he is to be playing professionally in korea.

People pay to watch GSL, the maps and games were determined beforehand. Even if the game was pointless, so many people wanted to see Naniwa vs Nestea as its just a great matchup, especially with the rivalry. Then naniwa throws it and disappoints everyone who paid for the season pass, despite nani getting guaranteed prize money from the tourney.

At the very least you owe it to your fans to play the game, even if you have no motivation for doing so. Everyone arguing otherwise needs to shove away their internet pitchforks and think about it from GSL's point of view.


Few people are defending naniwa; most are upset with GSL's ridiculous, ambiguous, and over the top reaction.



ridiculous - was in their rule
ambiguous - correct in term of their rules but historical analogies set by brood war time and past incidents have established a pretty clear definite of what proper conducts are for progamers.
over the top - same as ridiculous


Point #1 - Link me please, to the rule that says "worker rushing is suspendable."


Point #2 - basically the definition of ambiguous. That's completely open to interpretation, which is what makes it a stupid rule.

Point #3 - wp.


open to interprettion and the only interpretation that matters is GOM.
gom want to show good games, i want to see good games...it all works. if you wanted any less, then stop watching GOM. i promise you it doesn't bother me one bit
trucane
Profile Joined January 2009
United States553 Posts
December 14 2011 12:26 GMT
#2212
On December 14 2011 21:25 StUfF wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 21:20 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
On December 14 2011 21:18 Lysanias wrote:
A rule is a rule, if it says so in there rulebook then it's simple. I see no reason for 5000 posts.

It doesn't say so in the rule book. They basically made some shit up and used that because they knew half of the people would blindly accept it because their favorite little whiny pros did.


GomTV is a private company, without knowing if there was a contract between Naniwa and GomTV and the details of that contract, GomTV can do whatever the fuck they want. Ignoring rules and technicalities, I think what GomTV did was ethically right and I support their decision.

If you look at it from a business perspective, you have to understand Korea is still their biggest audience and easiest way to monetise. Without Korean support GomTV would die very quickly. Again I don't have the facts and numbers but I trust GomTV to know their bottom line.

I support their decision 100%.


You do realize that the majority of the viewers is foreign right? BW is still without doubt bigger than SC2 in korea and without the foreigners there would be no GSL.
ander
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada403 Posts
December 14 2011 12:26 GMT
#2213
On December 14 2011 21:23 Vari wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 21:21 ander wrote:
On December 14 2011 21:14 baoluvboa wrote:
On December 14 2011 21:12 ander wrote:
On December 14 2011 21:09 deth wrote:
i honestly dont know why so many people are trying to defend naniwa.

GSL is a business, naniwa is paid to play the tournament and is expected to act like a professional sportsman, especially important if he is to be playing professionally in korea.

People pay to watch GSL, the maps and games were determined beforehand. Even if the game was pointless, so many people wanted to see Naniwa vs Nestea as its just a great matchup, especially with the rivalry. Then naniwa throws it and disappoints everyone who paid for the season pass, despite nani getting guaranteed prize money from the tourney.

At the very least you owe it to your fans to play the game, even if you have no motivation for doing so. Everyone arguing otherwise needs to shove away their internet pitchforks and think about it from GSL's point of view.


Few people are defending naniwa; most are upset with GSL's ridiculous, ambiguous, and over the top reaction.



ridiculous - was in their rule
ambiguous - correct in term of their rules but historical analogies set by brood war time and past incidents have established a pretty clear definite of what proper conducts are for progamers.
over the top - same as ridiculous


Point #1 - Link me please, to the rule that says "worker rushing is suspendable."

Point #2 - basically the definition of ambiguous. That's completely open to interpretation, which is what makes it a stupid rule.

Point #3 - wp.

being open to the interpretation of people running a competition doesn't make a rule stupid.

worker rushing in and of itself isn't enough to get you suspended.


Actually, yes it does. Ambiguity in rules is exactly what you want to avoid, both in sport and in law. Otherwise this shit happens, with 100 pages of outraged fans.

If working rushing isn't enough to get you suspended, then please explain why there is a suspension.



crawlingchaos
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada2025 Posts
December 14 2011 12:27 GMT
#2214
Wow, possible overreaction by GOM but at least Idra/Sen are given a great chance (assuming it's because of this).

I'm glad to see some accountability at the very least; it's good to know that even progamers can't pick and choose which responsibilities they comply with and which they avoid at their jobs. No other profession allows you to neglect your duties when you just don't feel like doing it for whatever reason or don't agree with what your superiors are telling you and it shouldn't be tolerated here. It's harsh, but it's a reality check for Naniwa (and evidently a lot of nerds here as well o.O).

I don't think it was a fair move to either player, but it's seriously just one fucking game, he should have resigned himself to his fate and just accepted it like Nestea did and played it out. It's his job and he should have just dealt with it. He's not some magical diva who transcends the work order, that's life.
They say that life's a carousel, spinning fast you've gotta ride it well, the world is full of kings and queens who blind your eyes and steal your dreams, it's heaven and hell, oh well.
XRaDiiX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada1730 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-14 12:27:25
December 14 2011 12:27 GMT
#2215
Yeah the Rule is really vague and ambiguous its a stupid rule...

GomTV Rule:GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
Never GG MKP | IdrA
Vardant
Profile Joined November 2010
Czech Republic620 Posts
December 14 2011 12:27 GMT
#2216
On December 14 2011 21:24 Pwnographics wrote:
GomTV got complaints that were by no means able to be ignored, they didn't suspend him just cause they felt like it.

For everyone saying, herpity derpity I won't buy a pass for - for every one of you there are two people going well done GOM.

lol

So if a huge crowd believes something should be done, they should just do it. Who cares, they might actually be a minority, that is just really vocal.

Who cares about the rules, let's just piss on integrity and do whatever the emails demand.
Ace.Xile
Profile Joined June 2011
United States286 Posts
December 14 2011 12:27 GMT
#2217
On December 14 2011 21:22 Vari wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 21:18 Ace.Xile wrote:
On December 14 2011 21:14 Vari wrote:
On December 14 2011 21:13 Ace.Xile wrote:
On December 14 2011 21:11 baoluvboa wrote:

"Naniwa played a game yesterday that is not professional. I have heard that he threw away the game because it doesn't benefit himself. I want to lecture him. Pro-gamer as an occupation is not a job where you just play games between other pro players. Corporations sponsor us because the existence of fans make e-sports a product that we are trying to create. But I believe the behaviour from Naniwa yesterday was such a behaviour that betrayed and looked down on the fans. I hope he thinks about what he did and do not play a game like that again."

From MC


I think it's funny that pro-gamers advocate giving up competition in order for entertainment, as if pro gamers are entertainers who just happen to be competitors..

where does it say anything about giving up competition?


Because to essentially cater to fans is anti competition. In the light of a competition where your competition has ended, and you still have a game left, you have one of two options, you either just forfeit the game like naniwa did, or you attempt to entertain fans by creating some sort of fake competitive image, which in itself just makes a mockery of real competition. If your a pro gamer the goal should be to worry about competition, not create games where you try to act like there's something on the line when there isn't. I just think it's utterly silly to bring in pro gamers to a competition, and then once it's effectively over expect them to be forced to play a fake competitive game or be banned. The only argument you could make against naniwa is that he's a dick for not just playing a fun game for his fans, but he didn't sign up for the competition to play fun games, he signed up to compete and once the competition was over he pretty much just didn't see the point in faking it.


how the fuck is the game itself not a competition just because you can't win the tournament?

"fake competitive image"... so suddenly players can't simply want to prove they are better than other players?

Pride is on the line! victory is on the line! you shouldn't have to fake a desire to win when there is an audience watching you. especially against one of the best players in the world, especially in korea on tv when you've been invited by blizzard.


Naniwas pretty up front about his motivations, the only thing he wants to do is win tournaments.The game isn't a competition really because there was nothing on the line other than a single win at the end of an entire season it means very little in the grand scheme, especially when naniwa obviously didn't see it as a competition, if he doesn't view it as there something to get by winnning it doesn't matter. I mean sure you could say HEY HE SHOULDA DONE IT FOR HIS PRIDE, but the game didn't mean jack. The only reason to even get mad at him was that he didn't play the game for fun.. and as naniwa has said time and time again he's there for the tournament wins, once his journey was over he didn't care. People shouldnt expect pro-gamers to come to tournaments expecting them to be competitors and entertainers, especially when the player will outright tell you that he's there to compete not to just make games look pretty.
trucane
Profile Joined January 2009
United States553 Posts
December 14 2011 12:27 GMT
#2218
On December 14 2011 21:25 Sanchonator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 21:24 trucane wrote:
On December 14 2011 21:23 eYeball wrote:
I don't know but that line with calling Naniwa a "amateur prize money hunter" really felt like below the belt from Mr.Chae.


Especially considering how amateur GOM is proven by the hacking incident and the plain text non encrypted sensitive information.


i believe you are mixing the GOM incident with the PSN incident ?


I am not but PSN did indeed also get hacked.
pookadin
Profile Joined June 2011
Australia422 Posts
December 14 2011 12:27 GMT
#2219
On December 14 2011 21:24 trucane wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 14 2011 21:23 eYeball wrote:
I don't know but that line with calling Naniwa a "amateur prize money hunter" really felt like below the belt from Mr.Chae.


Especially considering how amateur GOM is proven by the hacking incident and the plain text non encrypted sensitive information.


Work in a firm that provides webhosting, you will find that most developers make these mistakes. I'm not talking about small time guys either, large ISPs and provides like sony..

Anything thats made by humans can be broken by humans..

I'm sure you are just mad and insulting anything about GOM without reason though.
*JYP* #1 fan! ♥♥ twitter~ @Pookadin
Tommylew
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Wales2717 Posts
December 14 2011 12:27 GMT
#2220
On December 14 2011 21:15 mTw|NarutO wrote:
Naniwa played a game yesterday that is not professional. I have heard that he threw away the game because it doesn't benefit himself. I want to lecture him. Pro-gamer as an occupation is not a job where you just play games between other pro players. Corporations sponsor us because the existence of fans make e-sports a product that we are trying to create. But I believe the behaviour from Naniwa yesterday was such a behaviour that betrayed and looked down on the fans. I hope he thinks about what he did and do not play a game like that again.

-MC


illr memeber that when MC is prancing around the stage like a ballerina.. that could cause offence to some people right? Especially after a victory. Oh wait thats fine though in GSL pantomine circus.
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