Please keep this thread on topic. It's ok to discuss the professionalism of what happened, but don't turn this thread into personal attacks or it will be closed.
On December 13 2011 22:03 JWD wrote: I don't understand why so many posters in this thread think that this game didn't "count for anything" just because it had no bearing on who advances from the group. Advancing in tournaments is not the only thing that pro players are paid to do. This game was a big opportunity:
for NaNi, Quantic, and the foreign scene to show their stuff, generally
for NaNi to gain even more notoriety through his rivalry with NesTea (imagine what a nice win + ceremony would have done)
for NaNi and Quantic to win over new fans, who will increase the worth of player and team
for NaNi and Quantic to impress GOM, who might then invite/welcome NaNi/foreigners/Quantic players to many more huge events in Korea
for NaNi to gain stage experience against a top top pro
for NaNi to better understand NesTea, in case they meet again
I'm sure there's more I'm missing. The point is that it's silly to think that there was nothing on the line here solely because prize money/tournament placing was not in question.
All of these are very valid points, but I'm going to have to disagree overall.
1) I don't feel this game would have really changed the view people have on foreigners, especially as it is a game that had no impact on the tournament at hand. If Nestea won in a standard game, people would say Nani was tilting or wasn't trying because it didn't matter. Same for the reverse. Whether or not that would be true is a different matter, but this will happen ESPECIALLY because it's a BO1, where you can't really gauge a player's true skill. Additionally, this is why I don't think this game would have really helped Naniwa understand Nestea any more than he already does: neither player is in their best mind, it's a BO1, and the game doesn't truly matter. He already has plenty of stage experience, but I guess more always helps.
2) This game probably gained Naniwa and GOM more attention than any standard macro game could have. While it's true people love long macro games, people also love "bad boys". Which do you think is more likely to gain more attention from people: "They played a long macro game, but Nestea won" or "NANIWA PROBE RUSHED OMG"?
I also disagree that this will reflect badly on the entire foreigner community (not that you were expressly saying that), but agree that it will probably look bad on Naniwa and Quantic at the end of the day.
On December 13 2011 22:27 CF_Toss89 wrote: It's fucking GROSS how biased the sc2community is at times. At dreamhack, I made a reddit post that got flamed & downvoted to oblivion. About what? Stephano 6pooling Cloud (Terran) 2 games in a row when he was 0-3 in the group in a game that actually mattered. It made naniwa have to beat sheth to advance, which he did. Now naniwa does the same in a game that doesn't matter and people go apeshit crazy. It's so obvious you're hating on Naniwa just for the sake of being a Naniwa-hater. Was it idra doing this, you all would go "IdrA just doesn't care, he's so bad-ass!!". zzz
Its not about Naniwa...its about the lack of respect. Even a 6 pool requires a little effort..what Naniwa did was basically a fuck you to the fans and his opponent.
On December 13 2011 21:58 1Eris1 wrote: People defending naniwa, can't you understand that a lot of people were really looking forward to naniwa vs nestea and expected a good game? Hell some people might have stayed up all night just to watch this game or even only bought their ticket for this rivalry? And now they feel cheated because naniwa basically gave them a middle finger.
Naniwa doesn't play to make you happy which he has made clear several times before. Blame the tournament for having a setup that can create these situations, you wouldn't get a good performance out of any sportsman after what naniwa went though. He was probably extremely disappointed and angry after those losses and they want him to play a showmatch? PLEASE.
A showmatch? He was gifted a spot into a prestigious tournament because gomtv is nice and basically told them to fuck off. If people aren't gonna tAke the tournament seriously then shouldn't accept the invitation.
He wasn't gifted shit. He earned his second place at MLG and because of that he got an invite. If it was providence first place only and they invited nani after then sure.
Ah yes. Of course. I had forgotten that Naniwa had paid his own way to Korea and made the connections to get into a progaming house all by himself. Its not like anybody else helped him get there, so he could get better to the point where he goes 0-4 in such a tournament.
Honestly the best punishment would probably be a ban from the Startale house. Not sure if Startale can actually do that though.
On December 13 2011 22:23 TheKefka wrote: Oh and btw for the people that compare this to real sport scenarios and how Naniwas career will be ruined by this. Do you think Charles Barkley smiled and laughed through his career in the NBA?When he didn't like someone he punched the other guy in the fucking face,he elbowed people,trashed talked people to no end,refused to come in from the bench.He is now a award winning commentator for TNT and one of the most public persona's in the US sport media. The way he acted through his career was his path.It's his skill as a player and personality that brought him far and he didn't give a shit about honoring sponsors or the NBA.
If all players were acted like Charles Barkley there would be no NBA. You shouldn't credit people who find success by gaming those who built the foundations. This cult of success justifies everything is a modern disease and leads to the unsustainable systems.
Wow,how can people always miss the point by so much. Here I will explain it to you word by word. PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE.You can't punish people for being who they are,it's what makes sports exciting.People go through life on a path they choose and what ever they do if their skill in a field out weights them being BM it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. How boring of a sport world would we have if everyone smiled after a loss,hand shaked their rival and go to the locker room saying to the press
No one is encouraging BM.But we shouldn't crucify it either. These reactions of"Ban Naniwa from GOM" are utter nonsense.Punish him,give him a fine. But don't try to slave drive people into being "nice".
On December 13 2011 22:27 CF_Toss89 wrote: It's fucking GROSS how biased the sc2community is at times. At dreamhack, I made a reddit post that got flamed & downvoted to oblivion. About what? Stephano 6pooling Cloud (Terran) 2 games in a row when he was 0-3 in the group in a game that actually mattered. It made naniwa have to beat sheth to advance, which he did. Now naniwa does the same in a game that doesn't matter and people go apeshit crazy. It's so obvious you're hating on Naniwa just for the sake of being a Naniwa-hater. Was it idra doing this, you all would go "IdrA just doesn't care, he's so bad-ass!!". zzz
This is so true.
This "we have to hate something, if there is none, we need to come up with something!"-mentality is pissing me off.
If this is behaviour is condoned, what if people just place huge bets against themselves, and go on to lose a match on purpose?
I see where you are coming from, but voting against oneself is illegal. So I'm not exactly sure why you are bringing this up as an argument...
As it turns out, Nestea was about to 6-pool anyway. That's pretty classy, huh?
Of course it's illegal... but it's definitely not hard at all to do it (ask a friend, etc)
But whatever it is, this is a minor point from me, the kicker (I'm Asian as well) is the insult to the Koreans who are a proud and honest people. They take moral virtues very seriously, and Naniwa just completely disrespected their culture.
That's retarded. Korean culture disapproves of probe rushing in useless games, but approves of 6-pooling in useless games. Sure, why not. Korean's certainly approve of cheesing. That's the only way Leenock can win, and everybody is jumping on the Leenock bandwagon now.
Your creating issues where issues don't exist. There isn't an issue with professional SC2 players betting against themselves and throwing games. It just doesn't exist right now. Do you think somebody will see Naniwa's probe rush then have an epiphany?
"Oh shit! I can totally cheat!"
Except 6 pool is a valid strategy and can beat greedy builds. Worker rush on the other hand, anyone that gotten pass the bronze league would of learned to how to deal with it, so in the professional scene, there is literally 0% chance to win with it, hence you are literally throwing away the game.
Throwing away game =/= Cheese... people need to understand this point
It's funny how the exact same arguement is being thrown around the SC2 community when it comes to 6pool.
All other situations people call 6pool a cheese and how everyone above gold can defend it, but all of a sudden it's a legit strategy lol
I can list many many scenarios and situations that a 6 pool can win games even in a professional tournament setting, but I doubt you would want to read that long of a post.
However, I guarantee you that you won't be able to name a single scenario that worker rushing will win a game in a legit professional tournament...
Point is, 6 pool is a cheese, worker rush is intentionally throwing away your game. There is a difference.
Morrow beat strelok with a worker rush!
workerrush != proberush. Dronerushes can work in every league if you know how, proberushes cant
On December 13 2011 22:28 gibb wrote: Tournaments should not have games like those. Shame GSL.
Games like that cannot be avoided with certain formats.
But the formats can be avoided.
in a league, there are teams that do not have chance to win anything after a while, so you're saying that the format of football league is bad? huh... i don't understand....
On December 13 2011 22:27 CF_Toss89 wrote: It's fucking GROSS how biased the sc2community is at times. At dreamhack, I made a reddit post that got flamed & downvoted to oblivion. About what? Stephano 6pooling Cloud (Terran) 2 games in a row when he was 0-3 in the group in a game that actually mattered. It made naniwa have to beat sheth to advance, which he did. Now naniwa does the same in a game that doesn't matter and people go apeshit crazy. It's so obvious you're hating on Naniwa just for the sake of being a Naniwa-hater. Was it idra doing this, you all would go "IdrA just doesn't care, he's so bad-ass!!". zzz
It sounds like you're mad you didn't get your karma. How often have you seen a probe rush work? How about a 6 pool? It's obvious that Naniwa was throwing the game whereas 6 pool is a viable strategy against greedy players
"u mad bro u mad bro" just shut the fuck with your immature trolling. I said it got downvoted as in the sc2community didn't care at all. And remember, this isn't YOUR league (aka bronze). 6pool ZvT on a map like metalopolis is NOT a viable strategy. 0% winchance. And when you do it twice in a row you're making it obvious as fck.
On December 13 2011 22:27 CF_Toss89 wrote: It's fucking GROSS how biased the sc2community is at times. At dreamhack, I made a reddit post that got flamed & downvoted to oblivion. About what? Stephano 6pooling Cloud (Terran) 2 games in a row when he was 0-3 in the group in a game that actually mattered. It made naniwa have to beat sheth to advance, which he did. Now naniwa does the same in a game that doesn't matter and people go apeshit crazy. It's so obvious you're hating on Naniwa just for the sake of being a Naniwa-hater. Was it idra doing this, you all would go "IdrA just doesn't care, he's so bad-ass!!". zzz
It sounds like you're mad you didn't get your karma. How often have you seen a probe rush work? How about a 6 pool? It's obvious that Naniwa was throwing the game whereas 6 pool is a viable strategy against greedy players
It was also obvious that Stephano was throwing his games there. He didn't even try to make the 6 pool look succesfull. Similar to when Stephano and Brat_OK were doing stupid (including a battlecruiser rush) just to lose because the winner of the series had to play Sen.
On December 13 2011 22:27 CF_Toss89 wrote: It's fucking GROSS how biased the sc2community is at times. At dreamhack, I made a reddit post that got flamed & downvoted to oblivion. About what? Stephano 6pooling Cloud (Terran) 2 games in a row when he was 0-3 in the group in a game that actually mattered. It made naniwa have to beat sheth to advance, which he did. Now naniwa does the same in a game that doesn't matter and people go apeshit crazy. It's so obvious you're hating on Naniwa just for the sake of being a Naniwa-hater. Was it idra doing this, you all would go "IdrA just doesn't care, he's so bad-ass!!". zzz
Its not about Naniwa...its about the lack of respect. Even a 6 pool requires a little effort..what Naniwa did was basically a fuck you to the fans and his opponent.
So it's about how much APM was spent on the all in that decides if it was bad mannered or not?
He is relaxed. Good. But again, pissing off the Koreans is not the thing to do. Again, mentality of different cultures is vast. Don't underestimate Korean "chivalry". Similarly, as a person of Taiwanese descent, I have to tread carefully with the cultures of China and Taiwan, even though I live in the US. I have "personally insulted" grown Chinese men and women by simply not adhering to their standards.
Naniwa deserves to be banned from any GSL event for the next year.
This is a total FUCK YOU to everybody that paid to watch great games. It should be an honor to play in fron of people, on tv, against one of the best zergs in the world.
I don't think it's smart of GSL to have players that have no chance making it through play instantly after getting knocked out. You will never see any player playing his best in those conditions. That doesn't excuse Nani from throwing his game but if anyone expected a match where both players were playing at their highest level you would have been disappointed anyway.
At least he is not pretending, 6-pooling or some two gate all-in in case of protoss would suit the drama people more ? The game had 0 impact on anything. Such games should not even be played at all. I would understand the outcry if some other player's advancing would depend on it, but that game was completely meaningless.
EDIT: All reasonable formats would just skip such games.
On December 13 2011 22:28 gibb wrote: Tournaments should not have games like those. Shame GSL.
Games like that cannot be avoided with certain formats.
But the formats can be avoided.
So group stage formats, league-playoff formats, basically everything except straight-up bracket systems should be avoided because the risk is not worth it? No, that's crazy. The way sports have worked for years is leagues and teams make it clear players have a lot to lose when they misbehave in ways detrimental to the competition. It benefits the fans because it allows for formats that give more varied games and so on.
On December 13 2011 22:28 gibb wrote: Tournaments should not have games like those. Shame GSL.
Games like that cannot be avoided with certain formats.
But the formats can be avoided.
So group stage formats, league-playoff formats, basically everything except straight-up bracket systems should be avoided because the risk is not worth it? No, that's crazy. The way sports have worked for years is leagues and teams make it clear players have a lot to lose when they misbehave in ways detrimental to the competition. It benefits the fans because it allows for formats that give more varied games and so on.
The matches are usually not played so close together though, so they have time to cool of after being angry at themself for failing to make it through.
EPT
