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Might be interesting for people that drive around with 5 "Support our troops" stickers and constantly rave about US military, pride, honor and whatever else comes with the package. Ironically most of this was happening under the Bush administration which leaves pro-war folk little room for debate.
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/12/08/9290603-report-air-force-dumped-remains-of-274-troops-in-landfill
The incinerated partial remains of at least 274 American troops were dumped in a Virginia landfill, according to government records, The Washington Post reported on Thursday.
Air Force officials said that the dumping was hidden from families who had given authorization for the remains to be disposed of in a respectful and dignified manner, according to the newspaper.
There were no plans to inform families, officials told the newspaper.
New information revealed that the practice, exposed by The Washington Post in November, had become very widespread until it was halted in 2008, the newspaper reported.
Last month, Pentagon and Air Force officials said that figuring out how many remains were sent to the King George County, Va., landfill would take combing through the records of more than 6,300 troops.
Full story in the Washington Post: Air Force dumped more ashes than acknowledged
"It would require a massive effort and time to recall records and research individually," Jo Ann Rooney, the Pentagon's acting undersecretary for personnel, said in a Nov. 22 letter to Rep. Rush Holt (Dem.-N.J.), who has pressured the Pentagon for information on the issue on behalf of one of his constituents, according to the newspaper.
Holt reacted angrily to the news, the newspaper reported.
"What the hell?" he told the Post. "We spent millions, tens of millions, to find any trace of soldiers killed, and they're concerned about a 'massive' effort to go back and pull out the files and find out how many soldiers were disrespected this way?"
"They just don't want to ask questions or look very hard," he added, according to the newspaper.
According to records the military gave The Post, between 2003 and 2008, 976 fragments from 274 personnel were cremated, incinerated and dumped in the landfill. An additional 1,762 remains, which could not be DNA tested because of damage from explosions, were gathered from the battlefield and dumped in a similar manner, the Air Force told the newspaper.
The widow of an Army sergeant killed in Iraq told the newspaper she was furious when she was told how some of her husband's remains were dumped in the landfill.
"They have known that they were doing something disgusting, and they were doing everything they could to keep it from us," Gari-Lynn Smith told the newspaper. She had been pressing the military for information on the subject for four years — ever since she got a report on her husband's autopsy and learned that some of the remains had not been put in the casket for his funeral, according to The Post.
Changes in disposal policies came about after an in-depth review at Dover was ordered in 2008 by then-Defense Secretary Robert Gates.
Does this feel like a bucket of ice-cold water? Must be eye-opening for some.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I remember reading this story the other day and the Air Force was refusing to talk about it...
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Just so sick. Weapon and oil industry making billions of dollar sending these poor folks to the biggest shitholes in the world and they are not even granted to be burried in a respectful manner.
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That's just flat out disgustingly disrespectful...
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Fucking hell. That's no way to treat anyone who's died for their country.
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They are dead. They don't care. Spending resources on burrying dead people is one of the most stupid things that our civilisation does. If you want to show your respect or come to piece with the death, you can do it in any ritual way you wish, but why do you need to have the actual body? It is just an empty piece of decaying flesh.
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The snippet of the article in the OP is misleading, giving the reader the idea that lifeless bodies were thrown into a ditch and forgotton about, this is not the case.
"The families were promised an "appropriate disposition," according to Jones. Portions of soldiers' bodies, most often pieces of soft tissue or bone fragments, were cremated at the Dover Mortuary. Those ashes were then incinerated.
"Any residual materials were then turned over to a private contractor and disposed of according to "common industry practice at the time," Jones said.
While the practice was common, according to the Pentagon, there was no contractual stipulation that the remains be placed in the landfill.
Jones said the Air Force ended the practice in 2008, thanks to an internal review made by the mortuary's leadership."
http://www.wave3.com/story/16222994/public-outraged-over-air-force-dumping-of-remains
Please edit the OP to give an accurate, more detailed account of what happened.
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That being said, I find this disturbing. Im really glad they ended the practice
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I think its important to note that they did not dump any whole bodies in landfills, they used it to dump body parts that were found after the death and funeral, Like many general threads, this one is slightly misleading. Very disrespectful none the less.
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If this is your idea of "disposed of in a respectful and dignified manner" then I am amused. I don't see what's there to edit, besides probably changing "bodies" to "remains" in the title (which only a mod can do, I don't even know why I typed "bodies" specifically) To me it's irrelevant.
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they take piece of the flesh they found after an explosion to make a DNA analyse to confirm the death. After that they put it in the medical waste container and it gets burned and put to garbage.
if they put it under the earth play a song and shoot in the air everything is fine but if they burn it and borrow it together with over stuff they don't need any more its a bad thing.
Perhaps its more important to think about why this guys had to die and not what happens to the peace of flesh that is left of his body.
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This leads me to believe the u.s government doesn't care about it's people, or even the people who fight to defend it, interesting hmm....
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On December 11 2011 00:17 PassiveAce wrote:
I think its important to note that they did not dump any whole bodies in landfills, they used it to dump body parts that were found after the death and funeral, Like many general threads, this one is slightly misleading. Very disrespectful none the less.
Im kind of torn. Yeah it can be viewed as disrespectful, but what should they have done with misc pieces of bone and flesh if the person has already been buried?
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What's happening to the american army? Year on year they keep doing sicker and sicker things. Makes you wonder who the real monster is.
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everyone should know that military is fucking garbage and
all people involved too by now.
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On December 11 2011 00:19 discodancer wrote:
If this is your idea of "disposed of in a respectful and dignified manner" then I am amused. I don't see what's there to edit, besides probably changing "bodies" to "remains" in the title (which only a mod can do, I don't even know why I typed "bodies" specifically) To me it's irrelevant.
Well the fact that this was common practice and later abolished in 2008. You leave all this out, not to mention like I said your original post is misleading and I had to take it upon myself to find an accurate account of what actually happened. If your going to post news, please don't be biased.
Your painting a picture that doesn't exist for shock value and it's disrespectful
Also your talking to me like I agree with happened, I do not.
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On December 11 2011 00:21 sekritzzz wrote:
What's happening to the american army? Year on year they keep doing sicker and sicker things. Makes you wonder who the real monster is.
The people that don't read the "news" reports properly.
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You are cremated and you remains thrown into the sea/wind/etc.
Thats how most funerals I have been to in the last decade have been held.
I don't get it, what's the issue here? Their families paid for them to be buried and they got a cremation funeral instead?
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Well, fuck.
On December 11 2011 00:25 Xayoz wrote:
You are cremated and you remains thrown into the sea/wind/etc.
Thats how most funerals I have been to in the last decade have been held.
I don't get it, what's the issue here? Their families paid for them to be buried and they got a cremation funeral instead?
Read the report
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On December 11 2011 00:25 Xayoz wrote:
You are cremated and you remains thrown into the sea/wind/etc.
Thats how most funerals I have been to in the last decade have been held.
I don't get it, what's the issue here? Their families paid for them to be buried and they got a cremation funeral instead?
If someone had their arm blown off in an attack and their bodies were buried, the arm blown off would be burned and tossed into a pit.
Yeah, that's it.
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Your country thanks you!
/sadface
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United States43269 Posts
On December 11 2011 00:20 Helios.Star wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 00:17 PassiveAce wrote:
I think its important to note that they did not dump any whole bodies in landfills, they used it to dump body parts that were found after the death and funeral, Like many general threads, this one is slightly misleading. Very disrespectful none the less. Im kind of torn. Yeah it can be viewed as disrespectful, but what should they have done with misc pieces of bone and flesh if the person has already been buried?
Find a field with some trees and a nice view. Dig a hole with a bulldozer. Empty them all into the hole. Fill it back in. Have a priest say a few words. In practice it's landfill but you take the trouble to show a little respect.
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I think before anything can be extrapolated from the article, an un-biased reporter needs to be inserted. Obviously it has anti-government, anti-military undertones. I firmly support my country, my military, and my government (that's one reason I still live here. Canada and Mexico are pretty close those that don't) so I doubt i'm going to read the full thing, or even think to deeply into it.
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On December 11 2011 00:23 TheBatman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 00:19 discodancer wrote:
If this is your idea of "disposed of in a respectful and dignified manner" then I am amused. I don't see what's there to edit, besides probably changing "bodies" to "remains" in the title (which only a mod can do, I don't even know why I typed "bodies" specifically) To me it's irrelevant. Well the fact that this was common practice and later abolished in 2008. You leave all this out, not to mention like I said your original post is misleading and I had to take it upon myself to find an accurate account of what actually happened. If your going to post news, please don't be biased. Your painting a picture that doesn't exist for shock value and it's disrespectful Also your talking to me like I agree with happened, I do not.
This was not common practice as far as we know, this has been happening for only a number of years, if it happened before it was never public. Families that signed for proper respectful burial were not informed that the remains were going to be dumped with other garbage or into the sea. This isn't the image that military draws of itself at all.
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The US military is corrupt and too much tax money is wasted on it
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On December 11 2011 00:27 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 00:25 Xayoz wrote:
You are cremated and you remains thrown into the sea/wind/etc.
Thats how most funerals I have been to in the last decade have been held.
I don't get it, what's the issue here? Their families paid for them to be buried and they got a cremation funeral instead? If someone had their arm blown off in an attack and their bodies were buried, the arm blown off would be burned and tossed into a pit. Yeah, that's it.
That's not it.
You've promised both families and the soldiers themselves you'd treat the bodies respectfully. I'm sure everyone understands that not every scrap of flesh can be DNA analyzed, but you could do about a 100 different things with them then randomly dumping them in a landfill.
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On December 10 2011 23:50 discodancer wrote:
Might be interesting for people that drive around with 5 "Support our troops" stickers and constantly rave about US military, pride, honor and whatever else comes with the package. Ironically most of this was happening under the Bush administration which leaves pro-war folk little room for debate.
I'm not even in the US military (I'm in the Canadian Navy) and I find the above quoted sentence about as disrespectful as the dumping of these bodies. Maybe it's different in the U.S., but here in Canada, we drive around with our vehicles plastered in "support our troops" stickers because we actually support them. The troops themselves. They made a choice to server their country, and if Canada began dumping bodies as is described in the article, I for damn sure wouldn't remove any stickers. I wouldn't be happy about it, but I would continue to "support our troops"
I agree, it's disrespectful to dump the bodies of soldiers who died fighting for their country. However, let's not use this article as an excuse to attack your country's military as a whole. "Leaves pro-war folk little room for debate", they can still fucking debate. I don't agree with every little use of U.S. or even Canadian troops, but to say that people couldn't possibly be pro-war after reading this article is ludicrous.
When it comes right down to it, my focus is on the soldier, the individual. I support them for making the decision they made to put their life on the line for the freedom's we enjoy back home. If anything, seeing an article about terrible disposal of their bodies should be a reason to support them MORE, and figure out ways to ensure it doesn't happen again.
The OP made me wanna rage puke.
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Absolutely disgraceful.
I hope these people are named, shamed and disgraced for the rest of their lives. Preferably prosecuted somehow as well, I'd be amazed if they hadn't broken any law in all of this.
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that article is so sensationalized, I don't have a problem with the real reason on the air forces side, the funeral home though >.> it's a shame for all involved.
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On December 11 2011 00:15 opisska wrote:
They are dead. They don't care. Spending resources on burrying dead people is one of the most stupid things that our civilisation does. If you want to show your respect or come to piece with the death, you can do it in any ritual way you wish, but why do you need to have the actual body? It is just an empty piece of decaying flesh.
Eh, I was typing a big response to what you said but then I realised that with what you said, there'd be no reasoning with you since you and I totally disagree with the importance of something like this.
Regardless, once you've died fighting for your country make sure that you let your superiors know in advance that you want your corpse to be treated like a piece of meat. They might not care because they are dead but a civilisation which disregards something as serious as a sacrifice of life for the sake of that civilisation, without having consulted the people they are supposed to be representing, has clearly wronged the families of the dead and the dead themselves - who expected more respectful treatment, and were promised it - but did not get it. Who wants to sacrifice themselves if they can't be sure they're fighting for something they really want to protect? The integrity of the armies words are threatened by instances like these.
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On December 11 2011 00:32 Microsloth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 23:50 discodancer wrote:
Might be interesting for people that drive around with 5 "Support our troops" stickers and constantly rave about US military, pride, honor and whatever else comes with the package. Ironically most of this was happening under the Bush administration which leaves pro-war folk little room for debate.
I'm not even in the US military (I'm in the Canadian Navy) and I find the above quoted sentence about as disrespectful as the dumping of these bodies. Maybe it's different in the U.S., but here in Canada, we drive around with our vehicles plastered in "support our troops" stickers because we actually support them. The troops themselves. They made a choice to server their country, and if Canada began dumping bodies as is described in the article, I for damn sure wouldn't remove any stickers. I wouldn't be happy about it, but I would continue to "support our troops" I agree, it's disrespectful to dump the bodies of soldiers who died fighting for their country. However, let's not use this article as an excuse to attack your country's military as a whole. "Leaves pro-war folk little room for debate", they can still fucking debate. I don't agree with every little use of U.S. or even Canadian troops, but to say that people couldn't possibly be pro-war after reading this article is ludicrous. When it comes right down to it, my focus is on the soldier, the individual. I support them for making the decision they made to put their life on the line for the freedom's we enjoy back home. If anything, seeing an article about terrible disposal of their bodies should be a reason to support them MORE, and figure out ways to ensure it doesn't happen again. The OP made me wanna rage puke.
Saw this when I came back. Wish I could upvote this. Really makes me upset to see it. Thanks for your service Microsloth, though were from different countries. Have so much respect for you. <3
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On December 11 2011 00:15 opisska wrote:
They are dead. They don't care. Spending resources on burrying dead people is one of the most stupid things that our civilisation does. If you want to show your respect or come to piece with the death, you can do it in any ritual way you wish, but why do you need to have the actual body? It is just an empty piece of decaying flesh.
So does Czech utilize mass graves a lot? Or is that just something you would support in the name of cost efficiency?
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On December 11 2011 00:30 discodancer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 00:23 TheBatman wrote:On December 11 2011 00:19 discodancer wrote:
If this is your idea of "disposed of in a respectful and dignified manner" then I am amused. I don't see what's there to edit, besides probably changing "bodies" to "remains" in the title (which only a mod can do, I don't even know why I typed "bodies" specifically) To me it's irrelevant. Well the fact that this was common practice and later abolished in 2008. You leave all this out, not to mention like I said your original post is misleading and I had to take it upon myself to find an accurate account of what actually happened. If your going to post news, please don't be biased. Your painting a picture that doesn't exist for shock value and it's disrespectful Also your talking to me like I agree with happened, I do not. This was not common practice as far as we know, this has been happening for only a number of years, if it happened before it was never public. Families that signed for proper respectful burial were not informed that the remains were going to be dumped with other garbage or into the sea. This isn't the image that military draws of itself at all.
According to the pentagon, it was common practice ( Linked source on first post on front page ). And they weren't dumped with garbage or into the sea, stop making things up.
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On December 10 2011 23:50 discodancer wrote:
Might be interesting for people that drive around with 5 "Support our troops" stickers and constantly rave about US military, pride, honor and whatever else comes with the package. Ironically most of this was happening under the Bush administration which leaves pro-war folk little room for debate.
Huh. I shouldnt support troops because some ass holes might dump their bodies in a landfill? Don't quite see the correlation.
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On December 11 2011 00:38 DannyJ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 23:50 discodancer wrote:
Might be interesting for people that drive around with 5 "Support our troops" stickers and constantly rave about US military, pride, honor and whatever else comes with the package. Ironically most of this was happening under the Bush administration which leaves pro-war folk little room for debate.
Huh. I shouldnt support troops because some ass holes might dump their bodies in a landfill? Don't quite see the correlation.
Your not supposed to think when people post stuff like this, just read what he says and blindly agree next time
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On December 11 2011 00:38 DannyJ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 23:50 discodancer wrote:
Might be interesting for people that drive around with 5 "Support our troops" stickers and constantly rave about US military, pride, honor and whatever else comes with the package. Ironically most of this was happening under the Bush administration which leaves pro-war folk little room for debate.
Huh. I shouldnt support troops because some ass holes might dump their bodies in a landfill? Don't quite see the correlation.
He/she mistakenly linked the troops and the military. To be fair, not a lot of countries consider them separate entities.
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Quite a shocking discovery.. "Disrespectful" as a word doesn't come close to what this is. I feel really sorry for the families that had to deal with this news.
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On December 11 2011 00:35 TheBatman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 00:30 discodancer wrote:On December 11 2011 00:23 TheBatman wrote:On December 11 2011 00:19 discodancer wrote:
If this is your idea of "disposed of in a respectful and dignified manner" then I am amused. I don't see what's there to edit, besides probably changing "bodies" to "remains" in the title (which only a mod can do, I don't even know why I typed "bodies" specifically) To me it's irrelevant. Well the fact that this was common practice and later abolished in 2008. You leave all this out, not to mention like I said your original post is misleading and I had to take it upon myself to find an accurate account of what actually happened. If your going to post news, please don't be biased. Your painting a picture that doesn't exist for shock value and it's disrespectful Also your talking to me like I agree with happened, I do not. This was not common practice as far as we know, this has been happening for only a number of years, if it happened before it was never public. Families that signed for proper respectful burial were not informed that the remains were going to be dumped with other garbage or into the sea. This isn't the image that military draws of itself at all. According to the pentagon, it was common practice ( Linked source on first post on front page ). And they weren't dumped with garbage or into the sea, stop making things up.
http://hypervocal.com/news/2011/at-least-274-american-soldiers-remains-tossed-into-virginia-landfill-like-garbage/
The landfill disposals were never formally authorized under military policies, nor were the practices disclosed to senior Pentagon officials.
Of course someone is going to say it was common practice, because uh, everyone's doing it? Don't be so naive, so far this was only found out to happen in 2003-2008, not before or after (which can still come out later)
Here's what virginia landfills are: http://www.magicyellow.com/category/Landfills/-State_VA.html
Garbage dumps.
Also they've admitted to dumping into the sea (basically feeding fish) - read news reports, they switched to that in 2008.
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On December 11 2011 00:15 opisska wrote:
They are dead. They don't care. Spending resources on burrying dead people is one of the most stupid things that our civilisation does. If you want to show your respect or come to piece with the death, you can do it in any ritual way you wish, but why do you need to have the actual body? It is just an empty piece of decaying flesh.
Funerary ceremonies are one of the bases of all civilizations.
It's silly to say that it's a "stupid thing our civilization does" because, well, it is indeed something civilizations do.
It's similar to say that it is "stupid' to form societies or to elaborate a moral code of conduct. You could go even further and say that sexual relationships are stupid, why reproduce in the first place?
It's not a questionable thing, as it's part of our deepest roots.
You also sound very much like a dismissive teenager who does not take the time to understand a grieving family's needs. No one will break your Linkin Park CDs if you feel bad after being dumped by your girlfriend. Human beings are mostly irrational beings after all...
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From what I understand they were not dumping whole bodies, but just fingers etc. You can't justify this as a right thing though.
I could have read the article wrong.
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All I see is an incredibly over sensationalized post, that is extremely biased in so many ways and doesn't even try to gather all the facts.
Way to be OP.
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well most people fail to critically think and analyze their own article lol..
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Yeah the least you can do for your soldiers is give them a proper burial. A landfill is disgusting.
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On December 11 2011 00:29 Jitsu wrote:
I think before anything can be extrapolated from the article, an un-biased reporter needs to be inserted. Obviously it has anti-government, anti-military undertones. I firmly support my country, my military, and my government (that's one reason I still live here. Canada and Mexico are pretty close those that don't) so I doubt i'm going to read the full thing, or even think to deeply into it.
you can't seriously support our government do you? Unless you support the lies the government pretends to be...
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On December 10 2011 23:50 discodancer wrote:
Might be interesting for people that drive around with 5 "Support our troops" stickers and constantly rave about US military, pride, honor and whatever else comes with the package.
So because some contractors decide not to show respect to dead American soldiers, that automatically disqualifies anyone ever to respect people serving in the American army..?
Even if this was sanctioned by the army itself, it means fuckall about the pride and honor of serving for your country.
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fuck man feels like the platoon movie, anyway if a soldier died and his was smashed into pieces? so that means he will be buried in the landfill? See i would understand if you it's just an arm then the whole body is respectfully cremated or buried, but what if it's like in my latter question?
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This is...frieking pathetic.
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On December 11 2011 00:57 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 23:50 discodancer wrote:
Might be interesting for people that drive around with 5 "Support our troops" stickers and constantly rave about US military, pride, honor and whatever else comes with the package. So because some contractors decide not to show respect to dead American soldiers, that automatically disqualifies anyone ever to respect people serving in the American army..?
This is about US army as a whole, the way it is viewed by society and portrayed in the media, about the concept of "patriotism" and what you really get in return. This is about how an absolute piece of shit entity that has no regard for human sacrifice is being treated like a sanctuary and a proponent of everything just and fair. I don't understand how you fail to see a problem with this.
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On December 11 2011 01:05 discodancer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 00:57 Excludos wrote:On December 10 2011 23:50 discodancer wrote:
Might be interesting for people that drive around with 5 "Support our troops" stickers and constantly rave about US military, pride, honor and whatever else comes with the package. So because some contractors decide not to show respect to dead American soldiers, that automatically disqualifies anyone ever to respect people serving in the American army..? This is about US army as a whole, the way it is viewed by society and portrayed in the media, about the concept of "patriotism" and what you really get in return. This is about how an absolute piece of shit entity that has no regard for human sacrifice is being treated like a sanctuary and a proponent of everything just and fair. I don't understand how you fail to see a problem with this.
Why don't you read?
For the love of god why don't you people read?
Can anyone tell me why you people refuse to read? I feel like im going insane watching one after the other dump their posts with no more understanding then reading the utterly false title.
I swear, if i open a thread on TL titled "China invades the US" the majority of the posts will be from posters thinking it's real because they read the title.
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On December 11 2011 00:15 opisska wrote:
They are dead. They don't care. Spending resources on burrying dead people is one of the most stupid things that our civilisation does. If you want to show your respect or come to piece with the death, you can do it in any ritual way you wish, but why do you need to have the actual body? It is just an empty piece of decaying flesh.
haha guess how our civilization started or the easiest way to judge a civilization is the way they handle their dead.
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How fucking biased. What's even worse is that half of the replies are from people who didn't do their research and find out what is really going on.
Way to be OP.
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So they burn a bunch of bodies/bodyparts and dump the ashes in a landfill instead of throwing them into the sea or whatever. Ashes are just trash, when i am dead they may throw me in the bin, it doesnt really bother me.
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Hatred is not the word. Wrath is.
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OP is so biased and sensationalist it is ridiculous.
The bumper sticker's say "Support our Troops" not "Support our Government's bad decisions".
Anyone willing to get shot at so I can sit here and read this silly OP is deserving of my support.
The title of the OP should be changed to "remains" not bodies. That in itself is very misleading. They are not dumping soldier's bodies in a big hole filled with Hot Pocket wrappers.
Most of the soldier's already had funerals where their family was able to grieve. Empty casket funerals happen a lot when the cause of death is "Directly hit by an RPG after vehicle was disabled by roadside bomb". Not much of body left to bury in some cases.
After they remove what they can of the body, and they happen to find a finger in the hummer when cleaning it out later, it gets put into a medical waste area to be identified (if it can be). At some point this finger was cremated (which in itself is a ceremony, maybe not religious but a ceremony). After this, the remaining bone fragments and ashes are FURTHER incinerated.
They then ask the family "Do you want these ashes of ashes of a finger we think might have belonged to your husband/brother/son?" and the family says NO. Why? Because they already had a funeral and said their goodbyes. They have grieved.
Put this shit in to context so it doesn't seem so absurd. And honestly, on a forum with so may self proclaimed atheist, wtf do you guys care about some dead dudes finger? Not like he needs it.
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On December 11 2011 00:27 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 00:20 Helios.Star wrote:On December 11 2011 00:17 PassiveAce wrote:
I think its important to note that they did not dump any whole bodies in landfills, they used it to dump body parts that were found after the death and funeral, Like many general threads, this one is slightly misleading. Very disrespectful none the less. Im kind of torn. Yeah it can be viewed as disrespectful, but what should they have done with misc pieces of bone and flesh if the person has already been buried? Find a field with some trees and a nice view. Dig a hole with a bulldozer. Empty them all into the hole. Fill it back in. Have a priest say a few words. In practice it's landfill but you take the trouble to show a little respect.
Then the thread would be titled "US Military Dumps Bodies into Mass Grave". Im sure people would still have a problem with dumping a pile of random body parts/ashes into a big hole somewhere.
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It doesnt matter how much you spend on the resources if they are dead. Its more of an at rest mindset for people that know their love ones are buried or cremated and given to the family. How would you feel if you knew the person maybe your bestfriend and you found out he was just dumped in a landfill you would be pretty pissed.
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On December 11 2011 01:05 discodancer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 00:57 Excludos wrote:On December 10 2011 23:50 discodancer wrote:
Might be interesting for people that drive around with 5 "Support our troops" stickers and constantly rave about US military, pride, honor and whatever else comes with the package. So because some contractors decide not to show respect to dead American soldiers, that automatically disqualifies anyone ever to respect people serving in the American army..? This is about US army as a whole, the way it is viewed by society and portrayed in the media, about the concept of "patriotism" and what you really get in return. This is about how an absolute piece of shit entity that has no regard for human sacrifice is being treated like a sanctuary and a proponent of everything just and fair. I don't understand how you fail to see a problem with this.
You are so biased and full of angst you are using a semi-related (albeit somewhat disturbing) news item just to lambaste another issue because it's convenient.
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On December 11 2011 01:07 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 01:05 discodancer wrote:On December 11 2011 00:57 Excludos wrote:On December 10 2011 23:50 discodancer wrote:
Might be interesting for people that drive around with 5 "Support our troops" stickers and constantly rave about US military, pride, honor and whatever else comes with the package. So because some contractors decide not to show respect to dead American soldiers, that automatically disqualifies anyone ever to respect people serving in the American army..? This is about US army as a whole, the way it is viewed by society and portrayed in the media, about the concept of "patriotism" and what you really get in return. This is about how an absolute piece of shit entity that has no regard for human sacrifice is being treated like a sanctuary and a proponent of everything just and fair. I don't understand how you fail to see a problem with this. Why don't you read? For the love of god why don't you people read? Can anyone tell me why you people refuse to read? I feel like im going insane watching one after the other dump their posts with no more understanding then reading the utterly false title. I swear, if i open a thread on TL titled "China invades the US" the majority of the posts will be from posters thinking it's real because they read the title.
You are talking to the OP, I assume he read more than the title. But considering how it was written, It's not surprising he is talking about his personal view in such a extremist way.
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The more I read TL, the more I realize how snippets of Simpson-esque shows I have always thought were intended to be sarcastic were actually legitimate depictions of the American life style.
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Sending them off to die in bullshit war: cool.
Improperly disposing of their body parts: outrage.
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This was posted on the reddit thread about this topic
"All the news stories about this conveniently leave out one little fact in the headlines: these were not remains as you think of remains. From the headlines, you get the impression they were just dumping caskets into the landfill. And, reading the comments here, it's clear most of you didn't read the article at all. These are partial remains, something other than the body they returned to the family. This means amputated limbs at the worst. And what did they do with them? The same thing a hospital would do with them, incinerate and dump them. Is that right? I don't know, but if you read past the headlines this isn't exactly shocking."
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Obviously being buried in such a manner is terrible and extremely disrespectful, but what's even worse is that the military told families that they will dispose of the bodies in a "respectful and dignified manner"
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On December 11 2011 00:43 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 00:15 opisska wrote:
They are dead. They don't care. Spending resources on burrying dead people is one of the most stupid things that our civilisation does. If you want to show your respect or come to piece with the death, you can do it in any ritual way you wish, but why do you need to have the actual body? It is just an empty piece of decaying flesh. Funerary ceremonies are one of the bases of all civilizations. It's silly to say that it's a "stupid thing our civilization does" because, well, it is indeed something civilizations do. It's similar to say that it is "stupid' to form societies or to elaborate a moral code of conduct. You could go even further and say that sexual relationships are stupid, why reproduce in the first place?It's not a questionable thing, as it's part of our deepest roots. You also sound very much like a dismissive teenager who does not take the time to understand a grieving family's needs. No one will break your Linkin Park CDs if you feel bad after being dumped by your girlfriend. Human beings are mostly irrational beings after all...
What? No. Anyone could say such things, but how does indicting one aspect of one funerary tradition lead to indicting organizations, rules, and reproduction? Because they're all practices of "civilizations"? That's a ludicrous reason, but maybe you were thinking of a more digestible one.
For the record I'm not even going to speak to the necessity or desirability of any funerary practices.
And then you lash out all ad hominem against the guy... just calm down.
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On December 11 2011 01:46 EchOne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 00:43 Kukaracha wrote:On December 11 2011 00:15 opisska wrote:
They are dead. They don't care. Spending resources on burrying dead people is one of the most stupid things that our civilisation does. If you want to show your respect or come to piece with the death, you can do it in any ritual way you wish, but why do you need to have the actual body? It is just an empty piece of decaying flesh. Funerary ceremonies are one of the bases of all civilizations. It's silly to say that it's a "stupid thing our civilization does" because, well, it is indeed something civilizations do. It's similar to say that it is "stupid' to form societies or to elaborate a moral code of conduct. You could go even further and say that sexual relationships are stupid, why reproduce in the first place?It's not a questionable thing, as it's part of our deepest roots. You also sound very much like a dismissive teenager who does not take the time to understand a grieving family's needs. No one will break your Linkin Park CDs if you feel bad after being dumped by your girlfriend. Human beings are mostly irrational beings after all... What? No. Anyone could say such things, but how does indicting one aspect of one funerary tradition lead to indicting organizations, rules, and reproduction? Because they're all practices of "civilizations"? That's a ludicrous reason, but maybe you were thinking of a more digestible one. For the record I'm not even going to speak to the necessity or desirability of any funerary practices. And then you lash out all ad hominem against the guy... just calm down.
Burying people is never about the dead person.
It's always about the people who are still alive. They want to respect the memory of their brother, their father, their son. They don't want to have this person that they loved their entire lives thrown into a pit. They want to know that they were at least laid to rest with dignity.
That is what all the outrage is about.
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If someone found my arm in the desert a week after my funeral, I wouldn't give a fuck what they did with it. The real story isn't nearly as big of a deal as the fluffed up crap in the OP. If my cock was found in the desert and dumped in a landfill, I might be a little upset though.
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On December 11 2011 00:34 Tonybarbosa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 00:15 opisska wrote:
They are dead. They don't care. Spending resources on burrying dead people is one of the most stupid things that our civilisation does. If you want to show your respect or come to piece with the death, you can do it in any ritual way you wish, but why do you need to have the actual body? It is just an empty piece of decaying flesh. Eh, I was typing a big response to what you said but then I realised that with what you said, there'd be no reasoning with you since you and I totally disagree with the importance of something like this. Regardless, once you've died fighting for your country make sure that you let your superiors know in advance that you want your corpse to be treated like a piece of meat. They might not care because they are dead but a civilisation which disregards something as serious as a sacrifice of life for the sake of that civilisation, without having consulted the people they are supposed to be representing, has clearly wronged the families of the dead and the dead themselves - who expected more respectful treatment, and were promised it - but did not get it. Who wants to sacrifice themselves if they can't be sure they're fighting for something they really want to protect? The integrity of the armies words are threatened by instances like these.
I am not saying that we should disregard the sacrifice of human life. Where did I say it?
I am only saying that as a civilisation, we should really be moving on from worshiping rotting piles of goo. We should properly honour all the people that have given their everything for us to live. But we do not need their body for it.
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Misleading OP by a dude with an axe to grind.
Does anyone know how lost fingers, hands, limbs, etc. are disposed of by hospitals? I don't have any insider information, but from what I have been able to gather online they are sent to a biohazard crematorium and destroyed. I don't imagine that the parts receive any further special treatment.
So, whether or not this practice needs revision, it's really not shocking unless you put it in the terms that the OP does (i.e.: US GOVERNMENT DUMPS DEAD SOLDIERS IN TRASHPILES!)
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If the title simply read "US military was dumping soldiers' partial remains in landfill", I'm sure there would be much less outrage. Luckily the blatant stupidity of the OP led me to read very carefully. Don't know how some people can function when every thought they have is some kind of logical fallacy.
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who could have thought USA would ever do something like this
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On December 11 2011 00:32 Microsloth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 23:50 discodancer wrote:
Might be interesting for people that drive around with 5 "Support our troops" stickers and constantly rave about US military, pride, honor and whatever else comes with the package. Ironically most of this was happening under the Bush administration which leaves pro-war folk little room for debate.
I'm not even in the US military (I'm in the Canadian Navy) and I find the above quoted sentence about as disrespectful as the dumping of these bodies. Maybe it's different in the U.S., but here in Canada, we drive around with our vehicles plastered in "support our troops" stickers because we actually support them. The troops themselves. They made a choice to server their country, and if Canada began dumping bodies as is described in the article, I for damn sure wouldn't remove any stickers. I wouldn't be happy about it, but I would continue to "support our troops" I agree, it's disrespectful to dump the bodies of soldiers who died fighting for their country. However, let's not use this article as an excuse to attack your country's military as a whole. "Leaves pro-war folk little room for debate", they can still fucking debate. I don't agree with every little use of U.S. or even Canadian troops, but to say that people couldn't possibly be pro-war after reading this article is ludicrous. When it comes right down to it, my focus is on the soldier, the individual. I support them for making the decision they made to put their life on the line for the freedom's we enjoy back home. If anything, seeing an article about terrible disposal of their bodies should be a reason to support them MORE, and figure out ways to ensure it doesn't happen again. The OP made me wanna rage puke.
this +100, op you sound like a total piece of shit. i intend to serve with our military and this doesn't make me blink twice; everything you said screams of entitlement and obnoxious arrogance.
you serve in the military to protect the people you love, not because people have bumper stickers or wave flags or because there's a ticker tape parade in your name upon return. the fact that people have things like bumper stickers or what have is just a small bit of their subscription to a mentality of support for their servicemen and women not the military, an ideology, militarism, or whatever foreign policy exists at the time.
the fact that you don't understand that is pathetic and deplorable. get a fucking life.
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What an awful OP. Your post was clearly biased and not very informal at all. If they aren't dealing with soldiers' bodies in a respectful manner then that's obviously terrible, but it won't stop me from supporting the troops. You can support the troops and then not support specific things the government or military do at the same time, right? To me, it sounds like they were mainly cremating and dumping limbs and stuff like that which is pretty standard as I understand. I have a few buddies in the army and respect their sacrifice for our country; that won't change due to disagreeing with a few of the military's decisions and people reading this article shouldn't over-generalize their reaction toward the military.
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Just another post from some anti war protester trying to twist a story in an attempt to degrade / demonize the military 
I find that alone sickening and awful.
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Not surprisimg at all. Note that most probably every army/government in the world does these kinds of stupidities; the US army is just bad at conceiling the facts.
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On December 11 2011 00:20 RobbybabyDTF wrote:
This leads me to believe the u.s government doesn't care about it's people, or even the people who fight to defend it, interesting hmm....
You just figured that one out? Welcome to 10 years ago 
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Clearly some people have bones to pick with the US government, including the OP. Furthermore, others aren't even reading too much beyond the headline and seem to be jumping to conclusions. And even the news report itself seems ever so slightly sensationalised - what's the first picture you see on the news report? A big casket.
It's not that hard to notice this - it seems however that a great many people are jumping on the 'crucify someone' bandwagon without taking the time to actually read the damn thing. Just like SafeAsCheese pointed out with the thread in reddit, this may not have exactly been the right thing to do, but its definitely not as horrifying and shocking as people are making it out to be.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
it's not a big deal. dead people should not be taking resources from teh living.
and the idea that this shows the government doesn't care about people is stupid. first of all, the government is a constructed entity. it is logically impossible for it to care in the same way a person would. people in government makes mistakes just as people in industry does and would you really trust a private corporation with a profit mandate to care more about the remains than government would?
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On December 11 2011 01:46 EchOne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 00:43 Kukaracha wrote:On December 11 2011 00:15 opisska wrote:
They are dead. They don't care. Spending resources on burrying dead people is one of the most stupid things that our civilisation does. If you want to show your respect or come to piece with the death, you can do it in any ritual way you wish, but why do you need to have the actual body? It is just an empty piece of decaying flesh. Funerary ceremonies are one of the bases of all civilizations. It's silly to say that it's a "stupid thing our civilization does" because, well, it is indeed something civilizations do. It's similar to say that it is "stupid' to form societies or to elaborate a moral code of conduct. You could go even further and say that sexual relationships are stupid, why reproduce in the first place?It's not a questionable thing, as it's part of our deepest roots. You also sound very much like a dismissive teenager who does not take the time to understand a grieving family's needs. No one will break your Linkin Park CDs if you feel bad after being dumped by your girlfriend. Human beings are mostly irrational beings after all... What? No. Anyone could say such things, but how does indicting one aspect of one funerary tradition lead to indicting organizations, rules, and reproduction? Because they're all practices of "civilizations"? That's a ludicrous reason, but maybe you were thinking of a more digestible one. For the record I'm not even going to speak to the necessity or desirability of any funerary practices. And then you lash out all ad hominem against the guy... just calm down.
Burials are one of the first sacred phenomenons observed in human societies. Anthropologists have pointed out that it's something that occurs in every civilization, with maybe a few exceptions I'm not aware of.
It's not one aspect of one funerary tradition, it's funerary tradition in general. It's one of the bases of any civilization in the world, along with sexual rules and taboos, hierarchy and paternity/maternity.
I was simply pointing out the fact that it's laughable to dismiss such things because they are the foundings of society. It's much like dismissing the taboo of incest; it's pointless. Your opinion does not count when we're talking about the very basic behaviours of others according to the rules of society - simply because it's about the group, not the individual.
Many things stem from such ceremonies: spirituality, tradition (respect of what is past and gone), social bonding. I was referring to sexuality as a joke, because if you're incline to dismiss the bases of any civilized group, you could go deeper and dismiss any natural law because, well, it goes against your own opinion. "Lions can fuck zebras because I, as a human, don't mind".
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On December 11 2011 02:59 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 01:46 EchOne wrote:On December 11 2011 00:43 Kukaracha wrote:On December 11 2011 00:15 opisska wrote:
They are dead. They don't care. Spending resources on burrying dead people is one of the most stupid things that our civilisation does. If you want to show your respect or come to piece with the death, you can do it in any ritual way you wish, but why do you need to have the actual body? It is just an empty piece of decaying flesh. Funerary ceremonies are one of the bases of all civilizations. It's silly to say that it's a "stupid thing our civilization does" because, well, it is indeed something civilizations do. It's similar to say that it is "stupid' to form societies or to elaborate a moral code of conduct. You could go even further and say that sexual relationships are stupid, why reproduce in the first place?It's not a questionable thing, as it's part of our deepest roots. You also sound very much like a dismissive teenager who does not take the time to understand a grieving family's needs. No one will break your Linkin Park CDs if you feel bad after being dumped by your girlfriend. Human beings are mostly irrational beings after all... What? No. Anyone could say such things, but how does indicting one aspect of one funerary tradition lead to indicting organizations, rules, and reproduction? Because they're all practices of "civilizations"? That's a ludicrous reason, but maybe you were thinking of a more digestible one. For the record I'm not even going to speak to the necessity or desirability of any funerary practices. And then you lash out all ad hominem against the guy... just calm down. Burials are one of the first sacred phenomenons observed in human societies. Anthropologists have pointed out that it's something that occurs in every civilization, with maybe a few exceptions I'm not aware of. It's not one aspect of one funerary tradition, it's funerary tradition in general. It's one of the bases of any civilization in the world, along with sexual rules and taboos, hierarchy and paternity/maternity. I was simply pointing out the fact that it's laughable to dismiss such things because they are the foundings of society. It's much like dismissing the taboo of incest; it's pointless. Your opinion does not count when we're talking about the very basic behaviours of others according to the rules of society - simply because it's about the group, not the individual. Many things stem from such ceremonies: spirituality, tradition (respect of what is past and gone), social bonding. I was referring to sexuality as a joke, because if you're incline to dismiss the bases of any civilized group, you could go deeper and dismiss any natural law because, well, it goes against your own opinion. "Lions can fuck zebras because I, as a human, don't mind". just because it is a deeply rooted sentiment does not mean it has to be taken with respect/followed.
it is painful to bring up the normative descriptive bit again here, but let us just say that we can choose to be something other than the continuation of our ancestors.
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Hum, actually, it does.
Humans are animals who follow specific rules. The respect of said rules is the condition of life in society. Do you think you could run around naked raping little girls and simply... defend your point of view that, according to your opinion on life, it's acceptable?
On a closer lever, we are in a democracy, and the rules of the majority prevail. Thus anyone who does not want to partake in incest or wants to have funerarial ceremonies can have what he wants, given that it's the norm.
Edit; it's very similar to say that we don't need bodies to bury people.
This is a logically flawed sentence, because an individual "I" expresses a new rule "no need for corpses" in the name of the community "we" who already thinks the contrary.
It's very much like saying "we don't like apple pie" when you personally don't. Well, most of the people like apple pie.
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On December 11 2011 02:00 Sina92 wrote:
who could have thought USA would ever do something like this
People who don't read the thread before posting.
I'd suggest a mod edit or lock this thread.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On December 11 2011 03:07 Kukaracha wrote:
Hum, actually, it does.
Humans are animals who follow specific rules. The respect of said rules is the condition of life in society. Do you think you could run around naked raping little girls and simply... defend your point of view that, according to your opinion on life, it's acceptable?
On a closer lever, we are in a democracy, and the rules of the majority prevail. Thus anyone who does not want to partake in incest or wants to have funerarial ceremonies can have what he wants, given that it's the norm.
but the very act of that guy in defying these 'animal rules' is also very sincere and real so it is also a part of animal human nature to have this capacity for change upon reflection.
anyway look you are wrong here so let me move on
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Total sensationalism. I honestly don't see why body parts cannot be just thrown away. I am sure hospitals do this all the time.
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It is real, but again, what defines civilization is society, the group. Civilization is, by definition, a group of human beings. What one human being think does not matter when reflecting upon civilization as a whole.
Furhtermore, society changes slowly, through generations and generations of people being influenced into changing their minds about their views. The opinion of a single person hardly matters in this phenomenon.
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On December 11 2011 03:15 Kukaracha wrote:
It is real, but again, what defines civilization is society, the group. Civilization is, by definition, a group of human beings. What one human being think does not matter when reflecting upon civilization as a whole.
Furhtermore, society changes slowly, through generations and generations of people being influenced into changing their minds about their views. The opinion of a single person hardly matters in this phenomenon.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/civilization
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Most misleading title ever.
On the real though this isn't that big of a deal but they should at least inform the families... They would rather find out just then then to wait four years and not hear or see of their son.
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Is it really surprising an administration that cares nothing for the rest of our species would't care about a 'respectful' burial and treatment of its own people?
"People are ment to be loved and things are ment to be used, the reason our planet is so fucked up, is because things are being loved and people are being used."
Ammmericaaa Fuuuck Yeaahh!
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On December 11 2011 03:17 OsoVega wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 03:15 Kukaracha wrote:
It is real, but again, what defines civilization is society, the group. Civilization is, by definition, a group of human beings. What one human being think does not matter when reflecting upon civilization as a whole.
Furhtermore, society changes slowly, through generations and generations of people being influenced into changing their minds about their views. The opinion of a single person hardly matters in this phenomenon. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/civilization
Following your link:
civilization, civilisation [ˌsɪvɪlaɪˈzeɪʃən]
n
1. (Sociology) a human society that has highly developed material and spiritual resources and a complex cultural, political, and legal organization; an advanced state in social development.
I fail to see your point.
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Lol the OP with his terrible post.
Hahaha wow.
Especially considering the people who have the ¨support our troop banners¨ would be the 1st people outraged if what you implied was true.
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Idiotic original post. If you're going to present a story, do so in a non-biased way so that you facilitate proper, fair discussion. What's the point in putting up a complete exaggeration as your title then including subtle jabs at people related to the US military (doing illogical things such as preferring 5 of the same sticker on their car)
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I'd rather my body be dumped bare in the earth as fertilizer (which wasn't the case here, they were cremated first) than be laid to rest in a casket. Not sure what my predecessors would want with my useless skeleton anyways.
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Baltimore, USA22258 Posts
Terrible thread with a sensationalized misleading title meant to elicit knee-jerk reactions. Christ, what the fuck.
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EPT
