EPTConcerned About SC2 Scam - Page 5
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Nalesnik
Canada51 Posts
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Xavi-avi
United States12 Posts
On October 27 2011 00:14 Primadog wrote: Support, Torte. Nobody has come out and say, "I have been working with x on this, and everyone should check it out." If someone like diggity has came out and say he's part of the project, will we have a thread call "about sc2 scam"? Essentially, his mistake is missing the implicit vetting process that all esports projects need to go through. To be specific with this particular project. I would had find from the players and casters that whether the showmatch listed are viable in the first place. You do so by getting a verbal okay from the player and casters first. The person involved never done that. A project like this will not get off the ground, proper, if he has not even build a relationship with the Pros and casters he intend to solicite. You make it sound trivial to vet a project through a prominent community member. It is not. They're all very busy and have little incentive to stick their neck out for some random guy on the internet. Also, I (perhaps foolishly?) spent all my time working on the site instead spamming pro-gamers and casters. On October 27 2011 00:14 Primadog wrote: For example, we all know full well that Tasteless vs Day9 will not happen. I had know of enough attempts to know they have personal reasons not to. Why even bother listing it? To be sure, I think the idea has merit, just execution is flawed. I am personal upset that so many good eSports project die before they get a proper chance to prosper. I didn't list the Day[9] vs Tasteless -- the community did. The whole point of the site is to give fans a voice. Removing Day[9] vs Tasteless would directly opposed that idea. I'm glad that you think the idea has merit. This "launch" was not planned. I haphazardly mentioned this site in reddit comment and people started to repost it. I was hoping to get more players on board with the idea (so far only Destiny has said he's cool with the idea), but for better or worst, that's not the way it worked out. | ||
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HTODethklok
United States221 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13430 Posts
On October 27 2011 00:19 AmericanUmlaut wrote: This is an issue I'm struggling with myself (though Training Day is just an event I want to turn into a regular thing rather than a business venture): No one knows who I am, and established community members are too busy to be reviewing everyones new ideas to consider endorsing them. How do you get recognition before you have recognition? I think there really is a point where you just have to say "fuck it," put yourself out there, and hope that if your idea is a good one it will start gathering positive attention on its own merits. Obviously this is a bigger stumbling block for businesses or any sort of event that costs money, since they're actually asking for trust from the community, but it's an issue for anyone who wants to make the transition from sideliner to a contributing community member, and I'm not sure that waiting to get approval from established community members is a reasonable first step. I did manage to snag an endorsement from MrBitter himself, but that involved beer, which is a solution that doesn't scale well. Simple. You get a showmatch confirmed with 2 players. You then say X player vs. Y player have agreed to a showmatch. The money they get for winning is decided by you the community. Donate to the showmatch at www.website.com! If this is successful we will take community requests and every month the matchup that gets the most donation pledges will happen. You need an actual legitmate starting point where you see it in action. Then the community from there will donate if they see fit. You could have a 1 week polling period where people vote for 1 of 3 or 4 possible matchups that have been agreed to. The winning poll then gets selected, confirmed and then donations start to roll in. Then the showmatch happens and people win make money. A cut is taken to maintain the website. Simple - done and more easily supported than this. | ||
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Xavi-avi
United States12 Posts
On October 27 2011 00:38 Nalesnik wrote: So he is selling off incredible show-matches between famous players, and he hasn't even told the players about this? ...really? I think you're miss understanding the point of the site. I'm not "selling off show-matches", I'm trying to give fans another voice and players another possible source of revenue. Also, I have e-mail players about the site, but they are busy people and they likely overlooked the e-mail and tweet. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13430 Posts
On October 27 2011 00:39 Xavi-avi wrote: You make it sound trivial to vet a project through a prominent community member. It is not. They're all very busy and have little incentive to stick their neck out for some random guy on the internet. Also, I (perhaps foolishly?) spent all my time working on the site instead spamming pro-gamers and casters. I didn't list the Day[9] vs Tasteless -- the community did. The whole point of the site is to give fans a voice. Removing Day[9] vs Tasteless would directly opposed that idea. I'm glad that you think the idea has merit. This "launch" was not planned. I haphazardly mentioned this site in reddit comment and people started to repost it. I was hoping to get more players on board with the idea (so far only Destiny has said he's cool with the idea), but for better or worst, that's not the way it worked out. But thats the problem. You need a "Bank" if you will of interested players. You then need to provide this bank of players to those who want to make their own matchups on your site. They then need to choose from this bank of pre-consenting players to put up a match up between for example destiny and Catz (idk). With these consenting players you then have a real chance of having a showmach happen because they know they can and are willing to play. You don't need to hunt after them or say "that money you put in is going back to you because x and y didn't want to play". Is it easy? No. Will it take time? Yes. How do you do it? Word of mouth. You already got destiny on board - sweet. Ask him to talk to anyone else who might be interested he then gives interested players your email. You talk after they initiate thanks to word of mouth and make the same request of them - spread the news themselves since other players will be more likely to convince them than you an anonymous person. Hopefully it snowballs and you get people. Its the same way you get interviews for research studies - you need to make it public that you are looking for people then once you get one person they talk to their friends and you get more people interested. | ||
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FunnelC4kes
Ireland462 Posts
2. It asks for a donation to watch the stream. That's a charge for a service. You can request a donation for a service, and give goodies, like the shoutout, but if you're explicitly saying that you need to donate to get the service, that's a fee. 3. Because there is no corporation or organization listed under the copyright, I have no way of knowing that this isn't some hack. | ||
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Primadog
United States4411 Posts
The first thing Xavi is to reach out and secure casters for the showmatches. "We're still trying to figure out the details" is a serious red-flag. The more details a new project provide, the more confidence the community will have that this is a legit project, that serious thoughts and planning had went in to make it viable. From past experiences, casters always are looking out for new platforms to put their name out there, so consider sending out feelers to existing teams like ESV, Stim.TV, individual casters like axeltoss, digiwombat, thundertoss, etc. Additionally, having casters saying that "I am going to cast for ProVPro" will be the first step to for this "community veteran support" you desperately need. You also need to fill out the details of your showmatch format. The standard showmatch is bo7, not bo5. Are the games going to be live or replays? Map Pool? Server? What % goes to the winner? The loser? What happens when a showmatch declined to be played? A simple change in nomenclature: instead of a "donate" button, change it to "pledge" or "back this project" like KickStarter. | ||
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Primadog
United States4411 Posts
Send me your skype via pm. Let's get your foot in the door. On October 27 2011 00:39 Xavi-avi wrote: You make it sound trivial to vet a project through a prominent community member. It is not. It's by no mean trivial. Been there, done that. Not getting vetted, though, is fatal to any eSports project. That's why i am so concerned that you haven't. | ||
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P0ckets
United States430 Posts
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
That being said, good luck with it. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
These matches are not setup buy the website, they are community requests. That's why it's okay for them to be unplanned. It's just a way for the community to tell two players: "we'll pay you this much for a show match". I went through a secure paypal login and my paypal account has not been charged. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
But thats the problem. You need a "Bank" if you will of interested players. You then need to provide this bank of players to those who want to make their own matchups on your site. They then need to choose from this bank of pre-consenting players to put up a match up between for example destiny and Catz (idk). This is my thoughts exactly. I would never want pledge money to a show match that might never happen. If there is a pool of Players who already expressed interest, it would be better | ||
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TWIX_Heaven
Denmark169 Posts
Also people need to realize that the site is allowing the community to create matches, and then support the motivation for players to participate by donating money. If you have players agree on beforehand, then its not the community's match, and if there is not some sort of "bank" then how can the players be sure that they will actually receive the money? This is why it has to be done like this, only i wish the community and especially the prominent community members would help and support ideas like this, because that is (in my eyes) what this site is full of, ideas. If we really do not get charged before the match happens, no one looses, and everyone wins if /when the match happens. People also need to realize if it does not happen, then bad luck, we (the community) did not create enough motivation through prize / donation . so make it happen. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On October 27 2011 01:00 MstrJinbo wrote: This is my thoughts exactly. I would never want pledge money to a show match that might never happen. If there is a pool of Players who already expressed interest, it would be better Seems like this goes against the whole purpose of the site to me. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On October 27 2011 00:58 Treemonkeys wrote: I just setup Destiny vs. Nestea and pledged $10 as required, to show that: These matches are not setup buy the website, they are community requests. That's why it's okay for them to be unplanned. It's just a way for the community to tell two players: "we'll pay you this much for a show match". I went through a secure paypal login and my paypal account has not been charged. It is insecure insofar as you authorized some guy to charge your account on the promise that it only happens when a game takes place. The issue is you don't know this person from Adam. That doesn't make it safe or reliable or ease any of the concerns that other people have. What if instead of people just pledging money to showmatches at random, he talked to the gamers and they set a price that would make it worth while for them to play the games, and if the community meets that through donations, it happens, instead of putting up fantasy matches that likely will never occur and giving some guy permission to take money at any point if he was so inclined. | ||
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Nalesnik
Canada51 Posts
On October 27 2011 00:43 Xavi-avi wrote: I think you're miss understanding the point of the site. I'm not "selling off show-matches", I'm trying to give fans another voice and players another possible source of revenue. Also, I have e-mail players about the site, but they are busy people and they likely overlooked the e-mail and tweet. Yes, but your collecting money from a website that you created, without any guarantee that the show-matches will ever take place. Sorry man, but you need something more solid than that for people to trust you. Refunding all the donations you collected so far, and hold off collecting any more for now until you can guarantee the show-matches (contacting players for their approval etc) will go a LONG way into making this project legit. If you can't do that, I don't see any reason anyone should trust you with their money. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
TotalBiscuit does all the time. He gets donations and uses the money to organize tournaments with a relative small pricepool witch attracts pro players and they attend since it's a community effort. Its a fanservice of sorts from the pro players that attend since they don't get that much money. | ||
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fyndor
United States159 Posts
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On October 27 2011 01:04 floor exercise wrote: It is insecure insofar as you authorized some guy to charge your account on the promise that it only happens when a game takes place. The issue is you don't know this person from Adam. That doesn't make it safe or reliable or ease any of the concerns that other people have. What if instead of people just pledging money to showmatches at random, he talked to the gamers and they set a price that would make it worth while for them to play the games, and if the community meets that through donations, it happens, instead of putting up fantasy matches that likely will never occur and giving some guy permission to take money at any point if he was so inclined. Right, at worse I'm out $10 until I report it to paypal. But like I said, my account has not been charged. Just because you don't trust someone, doesn't mean it's okay to call them a scammer. Until I get charged without seeing that show match, it's not a scam. The pending authorization expires on November 24th, so he has access to my $10 until then. You're "what if instead" is not that different than your run of the mill show match, this idea is better because it is automated and limitless, so any match can be set at any price. If the price is right, some pros will bite. | ||
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