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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On August 25 2011 13:18 Whole wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 13:09 _Search_ wrote:
Ultralisk
Build time decreased from 70 to 55.
Interesting, but I think Ultras were fine. It's not like Zerg was ever hampered by unit build times anyways. They can mass anything they have the money and larva for. I feel this is Blizzard's desire to bring an underused unit into the game, but build time is not the way to do it. They just need to let Ultra pathing be uninhibited by lings. Ultra build time was a pretty bad problem considering they couldn't be used to reinforce at all, and it wouldn't be worth waiting 70 seconds to defend anyway.
In all fairness Ultras should NOT be a reinforcing unit. The Zerg 300 food army is difficult enough to face without adding in Ultras. Can you imagine if they made the same buff to Thors? They're even MORE deserving of that buff since they're much more difficult to mass.
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On August 25 2011 13:18 Kluey wrote:
The warp prism change isn't really that great. It's like what they did with the Ghost. They just tweak it a little bit and people go crazy and try experimenting with it. 60 extra shield won't save you from viking fire or it won't make it invincible.
It makes it more durable vs Marines. 10 extra shots from a Marine to kill it off, and an additional 3 volleys from Vikings.
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On August 25 2011 13:18 Kluey wrote:
The warp prism change isn't really that great. It's like what they did with the Ghost. They just tweak it a little bit and people go crazy and try experimenting with it. 60 extra shield won't save you from viking fire or it won't make it invincible.
You realize that warp prisms are now the most tank dropships in the game now right? A lot of stuff like Vikings already did reduced damage to prisms because it was light attribute
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On August 25 2011 13:19 Ashes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 13:09 _Search_ wrote:
Now that I've had a good think here's my reaction to 1.4:
(Rank 1 Master Terran perspective)
General
Unit vision up ramps has been reduced by 1.
Defender's advantage!! Very necessary. This will stop Toss from saccing a unit up a ramp to warp stuff in past static defense.
PROTOSS
Immortal
Attack range increased from 5 to 6.
I first suggested this exact change a year ago. I knew back then that immortals were simply not effective enough for their cost, even if I was in gold league.
Mothership
Acceleration increased from 0.3 to 1.375.
The Mothership’s Cloaking Field no longer cloaks all units instantaneously, but rather adds units to the cloak field over time (maximum of 25 per second). This should alleviate “Mothership Lag” issue when a Mothership comes online.
I hope this promotes more Mothership play. It's such an interesting unit. At the same time though, Protoss late game definitely did NOT need any help. Colossus nerf please.
Stalker
Blink research time increased from 110 to 140.
This is great because blink really should be a late game ability and not conducive to a timing attack. Terran is far too vulnerable to blink Stalkers on maps like Tal'Darim, though this change will likely have greater effect in the other matchups.
Warp Prism
Shields increased from 40 to 100.
Not a particular fan of this one, mainly because Warp Prisms are such a powerful unit already, especially for such a cheap cost (no gas?!?!). The only reason tosses don't use them is because they're afraid of losing them, which speaks more to the lack of maturity in toss play than imbalance because, considering what the unit does, it's DEFINITELY worth the money.
TERRAN
Barracks
Build time increased from 60 to 65.
lolwut? Is this to help with 2 rax? I don't know how much effect it will have on that, but Terran has the hardest time producing units in the early game, especially against toss, and this will make Terran far too vulnerable to early pressure.
I once suggested this very change, but coupled it with a marine time decrease and Orbital Command time decrease (5 secs). Terran is simply far too vulnerable in the early game to anything that can get around a bunker. Basically what this is doing is making any Terran non-bio build auto-lose to early pressure.
Can this nerf not be accompanied by a reactor core build time buff? The Terran macro game already suffers as it is, without double-punishing Terrans for trying to tech.
Hellion
Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
Defense against hellions was already getting figured out. This nerf is totally unnecessary. Zergs have long learned to defend against them, Protosses have no fear of them and Terrans were learning to cope. 19 damage is still enough to 2-shot lings, just not workers until +2 mech weapons. Even worse, now zealots and marines are even MORE effective against hellions, when hellions should totally own both. This is the type of nerf that will remove the unit from the game, just like reapers, and Blizzard needs to be making Terran units less specialized and more cohesive, not the opposite.
Either remove Pre-igniter altogether and give hellions a +3 damage buff (11 +6 v light) or raise the hellion rate of fire and add a pre-attack pause, like in the alpha, like Thors currently have. This will force hellions to stay stationary before they fire, which will make hellion raids less effective, but allow them to gel more easily into a greater army mix.
Really Blizzard should be changing the Hellion to make it more effective in a general army and less effective in a raid. A straight-up nerf like this one will only remove it from the game, which is tragic, since the Hellion had essentially just entered the game.
Raven
Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953.
FINALLY!!!! No more vikings escaping Seeker Missile scot-free! Options in the imba Brood Lord/Corruptor/Infestor v. Viking/Marine wars! And, most importantly, AOE FOR TERRANS!! (besides tanks, which were hardly the equivalent of psi storm, colossi, carriers and fungal growth, if not also banelings (no one's ever perfected a "tank bust"))
ZERG
Infestor
Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% armored) to 30 (40 vs Armored).
This won't effect PvZ too greatly, unless units recharge shields while under FG (if they do then it's a big nerf as Zealots and Stalkers will each require an extra FG), but this is a welcome nerf in the Brood Lord/Corruptor/Infestor v. Viking marine match. Marines with combat shields and adequate medivacs will mostly survive 2 fungals and Vikings will require 4 FGs instead of 3 to die.
We all knew FG was too powerful. This nerf is well-deserved.
Overseer
Morph cost decreased from 50/100 to 50/50.
Contaminate energy cost increased from 75 to 125.
Still trying to help Zergs against cloaked units. This buff is unnecessary. Spore Crawler buff was enough.
Ultralisk
Build time decreased from 70 to 55.
Interesting, but I think Ultras were fine. It's not like Zerg was ever hampered by unit build times anyways. They can mass anything they have the money and larva for. I feel this is Blizzard's desire to bring an underused unit into the game, but build time is not the way to do it. They just need to let Ultra pathing be uninhibited by lings. Sorry to ask you, but your opinion seems to be very much supportive towards your main race (terran).
well duh.
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On August 25 2011 13:09 _Search_ wrote:
Warp Prism
Shields increased from 40 to 100.
Not a particular fan of this one, mainly because Warp Prisms are such a powerful unit already, especially for such a cheap cost (no gas?!?!). The only reason tosses don't use them is because they're afraid of losing them, which speaks more to the lack of maturity in toss play than imbalance because, considering what the unit does, it's DEFINITELY worth the money.
I stopped reading there. you're obviously biased towards your race, which is terran.
Hey did you also know that Hellions cost no gas?
Lol, good try though.
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Totally unfucking-necessary nerf to blink... way to spend time on shitty unit (mothership), and zerg can tech switch/mass ultras faster... yeah great patch... 1 engagement, then remax on ultras in 55 seconds? ok...
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not even a fraction of whats needed
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the fuck is this, super fast mothership and blue flame doesn't kill workers in 2 shots... whats the point
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On August 25 2011 13:19 Ashes wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 13:09 _Search_ wrote:
Now that I've had a good think here's my reaction to 1.4:
(Rank 1 Master Terran perspective)
General
Unit vision up ramps has been reduced by 1.
Defender's advantage!! Very necessary. This will stop Toss from saccing a unit up a ramp to warp stuff in past static defense.
PROTOSS
Immortal
Attack range increased from 5 to 6.
I first suggested this exact change a year ago. I knew back then that immortals were simply not effective enough for their cost, even if I was in gold league.
Mothership
Acceleration increased from 0.3 to 1.375.
The Mothership’s Cloaking Field no longer cloaks all units instantaneously, but rather adds units to the cloak field over time (maximum of 25 per second). This should alleviate “Mothership Lag” issue when a Mothership comes online.
I hope this promotes more Mothership play. It's such an interesting unit. At the same time though, Protoss late game definitely did NOT need any help. Colossus nerf please.
Stalker
Blink research time increased from 110 to 140.
This is great because blink really should be a late game ability and not conducive to a timing attack. Terran is far too vulnerable to blink Stalkers on maps like Tal'Darim, though this change will likely have greater effect in the other matchups.
Warp Prism
Shields increased from 40 to 100.
Not a particular fan of this one, mainly because Warp Prisms are such a powerful unit already, especially for such a cheap cost (no gas?!?!). The only reason tosses don't use them is because they're afraid of losing them, which speaks more to the lack of maturity in toss play than imbalance because, considering what the unit does, it's DEFINITELY worth the money.
TERRAN
Barracks
Build time increased from 60 to 65.
lolwut? Is this to help with 2 rax? I don't know how much effect it will have on that, but Terran has the hardest time producing units in the early game, especially against toss, and this will make Terran far too vulnerable to early pressure.
I once suggested this very change, but coupled it with a marine time decrease and Orbital Command time decrease (5 secs). Terran is simply far too vulnerable in the early game to anything that can get around a bunker. Basically what this is doing is making any Terran non-bio build auto-lose to early pressure.
Can this nerf not be accompanied by a reactor core build time buff? The Terran macro game already suffers as it is, without double-punishing Terrans for trying to tech.
Hellion
Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
Defense against hellions was already getting figured out. This nerf is totally unnecessary. Zergs have long learned to defend against them, Protosses have no fear of them and Terrans were learning to cope. 19 damage is still enough to 2-shot lings, just not workers until +2 mech weapons. Even worse, now zealots and marines are even MORE effective against hellions, when hellions should totally own both. This is the type of nerf that will remove the unit from the game, just like reapers, and Blizzard needs to be making Terran units less specialized and more cohesive, not the opposite.
Either remove Pre-igniter altogether and give hellions a +3 damage buff (11 +6 v light) or raise the hellion rate of fire and add a pre-attack pause, like in the alpha, like Thors currently have. This will force hellions to stay stationary before they fire, which will make hellion raids less effective, but allow them to gel more easily into a greater army mix.
Really Blizzard should be changing the Hellion to make it more effective in a general army and less effective in a raid. A straight-up nerf like this one will only remove it from the game, which is tragic, since the Hellion had essentially just entered the game.
Raven
Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953.
FINALLY!!!! No more vikings escaping Seeker Missile scot-free! Options in the imba Brood Lord/Corruptor/Infestor v. Viking/Marine wars! And, most importantly, AOE FOR TERRANS!! (besides tanks, which were hardly the equivalent of psi storm, colossi, carriers and fungal growth, if not also banelings (no one's ever perfected a "tank bust"))
ZERG
Infestor
Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% armored) to 30 (40 vs Armored).
This won't effect PvZ too greatly, unless units recharge shields while under FG (if they do then it's a big nerf as Zealots and Stalkers will each require an extra FG), but this is a welcome nerf in the Brood Lord/Corruptor/Infestor v. Viking marine match. Marines with combat shields and adequate medivacs will mostly survive 2 fungals and Vikings will require 4 FGs instead of 3 to die.
We all knew FG was too powerful. This nerf is well-deserved.
Overseer
Morph cost decreased from 50/100 to 50/50.
Contaminate energy cost increased from 75 to 125.
Still trying to help Zergs against cloaked units. This buff is unnecessary. Spore Crawler buff was enough.
Ultralisk
Build time decreased from 70 to 55.
Interesting, but I think Ultras were fine. It's not like Zerg was ever hampered by unit build times anyways. They can mass anything they have the money and larva for. I feel this is Blizzard's desire to bring an underused unit into the game, but build time is not the way to do it. They just need to let Ultra pathing be uninhibited by lings. Sorry to ask you, but your opinion seems to be very much supportive towards your main race (terran). On a neutral perspective, (I have began randoming these days), I think that these changes are good. It would be interesting indeed to see the likes of Destiny handling this change. Also this makes the battle between the ghost and the high templar more interesting and micro intensive!! gg!!
yeah basically he says:
protoss buff = bad
protoss nerf = good
zerg buf = bad
zerg nerf = good
terran buff = good
terran nerf = WTF BLIZZARD
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On August 25 2011 13:24 Gator wrote:
the fuck is this, super fast mothership and blue flame doesn't kill workers in 2 shots... whats the point
the change for mother ship is acceleration, not actual spead (i believe)
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Wish they would've made Heat Seeker Missile deal more damage too.
I still don't think it's worth the 125 energy.
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On August 25 2011 13:09 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +Repeated control group and selection commands will no longer count as unique actions for APM calculation purposes. Am I the only one disliking this change? No more 250 APM players? It's really hard to hit 250 SC2 APM average without tapping your buildings/units. So basically the left hand's speed is now completely ignored by the game?
This will just affect the super early game spamming, once you select and move/attk move or select a building and make a unit, the APM counts, so in battles the APM will be the same and in macroing the APM will still be more or less the same
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Not too sure about the helion change. Altho i think the helion was problematic, the nerf is pretty huge. I wish the helion was just a better overall unit rather than one tht sucks against most things except workers where it's ridiculously good.
Overall though, i think the changes are pretty good. I think the blink change is reasonable without severly hurting the timing too much. Fungal change was also needed.
I can see the Warp Prism buff eventually being overpowered, but atm it's a good change and hopefully it will create more dynamic protoss play.
Immortal change is pretty big too IMO. Probably won't have an effect on the late game but perhaps the buffed Immortal could be the answer to 1/1/1?
Seeker missile buff is nice, hopefully ppl will use it more. Mothership acceleration increase is also nice but i doubt it'll change too much.
Ultralisk buff is interesting. I thought the Ultralisk needed a change but i'm not sure if the build time was the problem. We'll see though.
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People use the mothership enough that there were lag problems associated with it? Hydralisks forever useless.
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On August 25 2011 10:18 Shadowsleep wrote:
They finally fixed the ramp issue for PVP. Thank god.
It always seemed to me like this was the most elegant way to nerf the 4-gate. Glad they did it but don't understand what took so long.
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On August 25 2011 13:22 _Search_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 13:18 Whole wrote:On August 25 2011 13:09 _Search_ wrote:
Ultralisk
Build time decreased from 70 to 55.
Interesting, but I think Ultras were fine. It's not like Zerg was ever hampered by unit build times anyways. They can mass anything they have the money and larva for. I feel this is Blizzard's desire to bring an underused unit into the game, but build time is not the way to do it. They just need to let Ultra pathing be uninhibited by lings. Ultra build time was a pretty bad problem considering they couldn't be used to reinforce at all, and it wouldn't be worth waiting 70 seconds to defend anyway. In all fairness Ultras should NOT be a reinforcing unit. The Zerg 300 food army is difficult enough to face without adding in Ultras. Can you imagine if they made the same buff to Thors? They're even MORE deserving of that buff since they're much more difficult to mass.
umm....thors are available much earlier than hive tech.
The build time doesn't just affect the reinforcement timing but also the remass timing. Hive tech is supposed to be the "break through strong defense" tech
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On August 25 2011 13:24 TimeFlighT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 13:09 _Search_ wrote:
Warp Prism
Shields increased from 40 to 100.
Not a particular fan of this one, mainly because Warp Prisms are such a powerful unit already, especially for such a cheap cost (no gas?!?!). The only reason tosses don't use them is because they're afraid of losing them, which speaks more to the lack of maturity in toss play than imbalance because, considering what the unit does, it's DEFINITELY worth the money.
I stopped reading there. you're obviously biased towards your race, which is terran. Hey did you also know that Hellions cost no gas? Lol, good try though.
Did you know that Hellions also allow you to create units on the spot? And they fly?
Different units are different. And I definitely had neutral-ish comments regarding the hellion nerf.
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Pretty smart. Hellions still 2 shot lings with the bfh upgrade so you can still use it to keep map control. Yet they don't roast drone lines in the blink of an eye. Very beautifully done.
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Another thought about the HSM buff, before I go to bed...
Obviously, HSMs new speed in relation to the speed of other units is very important to note.
However, I would so like to think about how fast the HSM would close the distance when a unit is running directly away from it. Since HSM has a limited time limit (which can be increased with an upgrade), perhaps it is still possible for some units to outrun it before it closes the distance.
However, tests on the PTR need to be conducted to be sure.
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On August 25 2011 13:22 _Search_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 13:18 Whole wrote:On August 25 2011 13:09 _Search_ wrote:
Ultralisk
Build time decreased from 70 to 55.
Interesting, but I think Ultras were fine. It's not like Zerg was ever hampered by unit build times anyways. They can mass anything they have the money and larva for. I feel this is Blizzard's desire to bring an underused unit into the game, but build time is not the way to do it. They just need to let Ultra pathing be uninhibited by lings. Ultra build time was a pretty bad problem considering they couldn't be used to reinforce at all, and it wouldn't be worth waiting 70 seconds to defend anyway. In all fairness Ultras should NOT be a reinforcing unit. The Zerg 300 food army is difficult enough to face without adding in Ultras. Can you imagine if they made the same buff to Thors? They're even MORE deserving of that buff since they're much more difficult to mass.
No one masses Ultras though. You get 5 at the very most to tank some hits to move in. And you can't do anything when a Protoss or Terran is containing your bases without Ultralisks to tank hits. The change will attempt to fix a problem where Protoss and Terran can break a Zerg easily while Zerg cannot do the same.
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EPT
