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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 10 2011 04:50 Theeakoz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 04:36 Lomak wrote:On September 10 2011 04:35 Theeakoz wrote:On September 10 2011 04:32 Lomak wrote:On September 10 2011 04:26 Theeakoz wrote:On September 10 2011 04:24 MrCon wrote:On September 10 2011 03:55 dogabutila wrote:On September 10 2011 03:48 EmilA wrote:On September 10 2011 03:35 urashimakt wrote:On September 10 2011 03:23 EmilA wrote:
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I'm sorry, but destiny even being grandmaster is testiment to infestors being overpowered. Make this guy play _any_ other zerg playstyle and he's terrible. He has quit his job to stream, and his level of play is centered around his one-trick-pony playstyle, so he has everything to lose and he's biased as hell. I don't see it as a question of whether or not the Infestor is an imbalanced unit so much as what is the point of Neural Parasite if it can't be used on units worth being used on. Anyone can comment on that, so why not a TL featured streamer? Because anyone can come up with a reason why something shouldn't be nerfed. Every terran could rightfully argue that blue flame hellions against workers can be solved by careful sim city - it'd be correct, but it wouldn't change the glaringly obvious fact that BF hellions are broken. Likewise, infestors can theoretically be handled by feedback, but in reality it just doesn't happen. Infestors are in a state where they're freaking ridiculous against pretty much everything but their intended counter units (that happen to be branched out specialist units) and even then, they're not being dominated by said units at all. If banelings did 45 damage, it would be still be possible for terran to trade cost effectively by splitting each marine individually, but banelings would still just be too good. Destiny just points out that there is a unit that can do alright against the infestor, which he thinks justifies the infestor being rather imbalanced against everything else. The funny thing is that everybody acts like NP is the reason infestors are so so OP but nobody ever complained about it before. It was just fungal, infested terran, chain fungals. People are so emotionally invested into hating infestors that they cheer for a nerf that breaks the game without examining why they really think infestors are OP and adjusting those issues. That's exactly the reason that zergs should not complain about infestors being useless after the patch. It's bad design yeah, because they could just remove the spell or buff another angle of it. But after that you say that the nerf is "breaking the game", so I don't know what to think anymore. LOL nobody every complained about amulet before it got REMOVED from the game... careful what you wish for. EXPLAIN to me your thought process on how the removal of KA is anything remotely comparable to completely changing how the spell 'Neural parasite" functions. I'm genuinely curious how so many people seem to make this ignorant correlation. It's comparable in that it was a big deal, in both cases, the main casters of each race and getting weakened, the way that are getting nerfed is different because of the implication it might have on the other race (being terran). that's why they seem so different. So it's a nerf to zerg, (duh), and because the KA nerf was a nerf to Toss that makes them comparable. This game is so much more complicated than your simple mind can wrap itself around. You're just insulting the forum readers including me and there is no one here to punish you for it. Yes, that is what I said. You just repeated what I initially said and tried to make it look funny, it doesn't seem funny to me, it a point and you haven't come up with a counter argument against it.
The KA nerf only changed how accessible the storm spell was, IT DID NOT CHANGE THE STORM SPELL WHATSOEVER, the storm didn't suddenly get restricted to only affecting certain unit types. You cannot logically compare this neural change to the KA change. They are so vastly different that it fucking baffles me how many people are trying to compare them.
If it was the Pathogen Glands upgrade that they were changing than your comparison would make sense.
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On September 10 2011 04:49 Rorschach wrote:
Oh and I almost forgot that Ultra build time is doubled..... wait........
Ultras are terrible. Are you serious? Lets decrease Carrier build time with 15 seconds and call it a day shall we, good news Protoss, carriers build 15 seconds faster you can use them now!
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Can also NP archons which shred any zealots the protoss user might have.
Yeah its less of a NP all the 6 food units you have and then I win kind of scenario. Because lets be honest, having to not make units to kill the collossi and instead NPin them and letting them kill themselves is kind of frustrating
Archons are massive. NP will not work on them.
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what's the ETA for when this will be implemented? i'm assuming it should be soon to give pros enough time to prepare for the MLG in October
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On September 10 2011 04:53 skatbone wrote:Show nested quote +
Can also NP archons which shred any zealots the protoss user might have.
Yeah its less of a NP all the 6 food units you have and then I win kind of scenario. Because lets be honest, having to not make units to kill the collossi and instead NPin them and letting them kill themselves is kind of frustrating
Archons are massive. NP will not work on them.
That was the plan for Archons massive all along muhahahaha
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On September 10 2011 04:36 KazeHydra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 04:25 Cyanocyst wrote:
What LOL, NP not being able to target massive units. I can't even fathom. Just take the spell out of the fucking game, in that case. Id rather have something deleted than be completely useless.
Also delete hydras while your at it. I see NP used more often on non-massive than massive units though. Tanks, void rays, and immortals, mostly. NP on HT/ghosts is really effective as well but harder to pull off. Thors are an exception. If you can get in range to NP colossi for a significant amount of time then you probably already won the game.
I don't see it man. Tanks have much longer range than NP, don't really think you can be as efficient where as if you just used fungal.
Immortals i feel can be taken still be taken effectively. However their effectiveness relative to fungal would be greatly dependent on the protoss unit composition.
As far as taking the opponents casters, I would have to say that Emp might be the Least effective spell vs Terran, also that storm is probably least effective vs protoss. Keep in mind that snipe is a much faster spell than Np.
I think utility wise, there is no longer a situation where NP can help you out more than fungal.
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On September 10 2011 04:06 wolfe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 04:03 Treble557 wrote:
Let's balance the other casters in the same way they balance infestors, shall we?
- Snipe now does 1/4th it's actual damage to massive units.
- Ghosts can no longer cast snipe or EMP while cloaked
- Psy Storm Now does 20 dmg +60 to light.
Perfectly fair changes imo. Perfectly horrible post. How many times do people have to tell you guys that making the races the same does not mean balance?
let me fix it..the original post missed a few VERY important key points
- Snipe now does 1/4th it's actual damage to massive units.
- Ghosts can no longer cast snipe or EMP while cloaked
- Psy Storm Now does 20 dmg +60 to light.
- Storm completely locks down units to allow zealots to surround
I would trade that in a heartbeat
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On September 10 2011 04:53 Zahki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 04:49 Rorschach wrote:
Oh and I almost forgot that Ultra build time is doubled..... wait........ Ultras are terrible. Are you serious? Lets decrease Carrier build time with 15 seconds and call it a day shall we, good news Protoss, carriers build 15 seconds faster you can use them now!
Well since you'd be one what 4 bases going carriers, just chrono it out. Your carrier will build faster than my viking, it's amazing!
The NP nerf will almost make mech viable vs zerg on some maps... I'm stoked.
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On September 10 2011 04:53 Zahki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 04:49 Rorschach wrote:
Oh and I almost forgot that Ultra build time is doubled..... wait........ Ultras are terrible. Are you serious? Lets decrease Carrier build time with 15 seconds and call it a day shall we, good news Protoss, carriers build 15 seconds faster you can use them now!
actually if they reduced carrier build time, they would be rather useful. 2 minutes for 1 freaking unit is stupid. If a carrier took 70~80 secs, I can definitely see them being in play.
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On September 10 2011 04:52 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 04:47 Zahki wrote:On September 10 2011 04:44 biaxiong wrote:
This change forces Zergs to actually scout tech routes now instead of Infestors answer for everything, which it was. With Overseer cost down, scouting should be easier.
Cool. When are Protoss going to be forced to scout instead of 3 base deathballing every game, since that counters everything Zerg has. Not surprising you're eager for the old days of Roach/Hydra/Corruptor to return considering how easy it was for Protoss to win against it. are you kidding me? baneling drops.
Why do people keep suggesting that? Baneling drops only work on protoss below masters who don't know how to spread their units when the overlords show up.
There's nothing effective about that style against a toss player with good micro.
There's a reason it was abandoned for the more infestor centered styles, which had consistency to them in the ability to guarentee you'll kill ATLEAST more then 15 of the toss's supply in exchange for your entire army, even if you don't win the battle.
It's really not fun to sit there and just macro for 14 minutes only to get on 5 bases and be rolled by a deathball because your units aren't on par with theirs no matter what comp you use. and attempting to remax results in you getting blown away AGAIN because you kill next to nothing of theirs in the initial trade.
Not good strats, not fun gameplay, bad for SC2 overall.
Toss need to suck it up and learn how to scout just like terran and zerg have to, and change of their strats every now and then (and no I don't mean crappy cheese that doesn't work) in order to win.
or do toss players feel they should be above that?
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It's at times like this that it seems that only the most trollish comments are really appropriate. I know there's this expression about shoes and feet. Not sure how it goes.
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On September 10 2011 04:53 Zahki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 04:49 Rorschach wrote:
Oh and I almost forgot that Ultra build time is doubled..... wait........ Ultras are terrible.
Oh you'd be surprised.
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On September 10 2011 04:57 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 04:53 Zahki wrote:On September 10 2011 04:49 Rorschach wrote:
Oh and I almost forgot that Ultra build time is doubled..... wait........ Ultras are terrible. Are you serious? Lets decrease Carrier build time with 15 seconds and call it a day shall we, good news Protoss, carriers build 15 seconds faster you can use them now! actually if they reduced carrier build time, they would be rather useful. 2 minutes for 1 freaking unit is stupid. If a carrier took 70~80 secs, I can definitely see them being in play.
So true carrier take 120 seconds to make actually, zerg can still try to compare it with Ultra 70 seconds if they want.
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On September 10 2011 04:56 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 04:53 Zahki wrote:On September 10 2011 04:49 Rorschach wrote:
Oh and I almost forgot that Ultra build time is doubled..... wait........ Ultras are terrible. Are you serious? Lets decrease Carrier build time with 15 seconds and call it a day shall we, good news Protoss, carriers build 15 seconds faster you can use them now! Well since you'd be one what 4 bases going carriers, just chrono it out. Your carrier will build faster than my viking, it's amazing! The NP nerf will almost make mech viable vs zerg on some maps... I'm stoked.
fully chrono carrier (4 chronos) is out in 80 seconds and then another 32 seconds for it to be combat ready (build interceptors)
vikings take 112 seconds to build!?!?!
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too many bad players discussing balance results in a lot of random crap being posted
when you talk about balance please try to refer to the very top level games, and not to your own experience
mid master is VERY far from pro gamer level
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On September 10 2011 05:00 ReignFayth wrote:
too many bad players discussing balance results in a lot of random crap being posted
when you talk about balance please try to refer to the very top level games, and not to your own experience
mid master is VERY far from pro gamer level
This is my biggest gripe, very little NP use has been seen in the highest level of play.
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hey toss speaking hear i 1st thought this was a troll.... at 1st this is toooo much..... it will not happen....
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EPT
