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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 10 2011 04:25 Cyanocyst wrote:
What LOL, NP not being able to target massive units. I can't even fathom. Just take the spell out of the fucking game, in that case. Id rather have something deleted than be completely useless.
Also delete hydras while your at it.
I see NP used more often on non-massive than massive units though. Tanks, void rays, and immortals, mostly. NP on HT/ghosts is really effective as well but harder to pull off. Thors are an exception. If you can get in range to NP colossi for a significant amount of time then you probably already won the game.
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On September 10 2011 04:26 hotwings wrote:
Someone needs to make a troll comic about this change. It's too funny if it goes live.
How about a Dark Archon standing behind David Kim going, 'Yes, excellent...'.
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On September 10 2011 04:32 DFDream wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 04:30 Theeakoz wrote:On September 10 2011 04:27 Benjef wrote:On September 10 2011 04:25 Cyanocyst wrote:
What LOL, NP not being able to target massive units. I can't even fathom. Just take the spell out of the fucking game, in that case. Id rather have something deleted than be completely useless. Theres still plenty of things to NP, just NPing all of some guys Collosus or Mothership is a bit OP... ZvT you can NP casters, ghosts are going to dominate so much of the TvZ metagame that people will start NPing them. you can still NP tanks as well. Because nural totally out ranges emp, snipe,and tanks
You forgot it is instant cast as well, as opposed to tank shots and snipes wich have a delay.
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For me, I like the nerf to NP. It is so stupid. litterally 70% of zergs I play now days do the stupid all ling+infestors army. It prevents toss from getting a 3rd base because of the threat of mass infested terrans+zerglings as well as any 2 base colossus timing due to NP. Basically all I do these days on ladder is go mass gateway and hope to hit a good timing.
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On September 10 2011 04:35 Theeakoz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 04:32 Lomak wrote:On September 10 2011 04:26 Theeakoz wrote:On September 10 2011 04:24 MrCon wrote:On September 10 2011 03:55 dogabutila wrote:On September 10 2011 03:48 EmilA wrote:On September 10 2011 03:35 urashimakt wrote:On September 10 2011 03:23 EmilA wrote:On September 10 2011 02:46 Treble557 wrote: http://sv.twitch.tv/colcatz/b/294620992 1:16 in for destiny/catz/kyles/reignfayths opinions on the NP changes. Lotta very good points are raised. Catz's mic is a bit super loud tho so.. Yeah. Be warned, lol. I'm sorry, but destiny even being grandmaster is testiment to infestors being overpowered. Make this guy play _any_ other zerg playstyle and he's terrible. He has quit his job to stream, and his level of play is centered around his one-trick-pony playstyle, so he has everything to lose and he's biased as hell. I don't see it as a question of whether or not the Infestor is an imbalanced unit so much as what is the point of Neural Parasite if it can't be used on units worth being used on. Anyone can comment on that, so why not a TL featured streamer? Because anyone can come up with a reason why something shouldn't be nerfed. Every terran could rightfully argue that blue flame hellions against workers can be solved by careful sim city - it'd be correct, but it wouldn't change the glaringly obvious fact that BF hellions are broken. Likewise, infestors can theoretically be handled by feedback, but in reality it just doesn't happen. Infestors are in a state where they're freaking ridiculous against pretty much everything but their intended counter units (that happen to be branched out specialist units) and even then, they're not being dominated by said units at all. If banelings did 45 damage, it would be still be possible for terran to trade cost effectively by splitting each marine individually, but banelings would still just be too good. Destiny just points out that there is a unit that can do alright against the infestor, which he thinks justifies the infestor being rather imbalanced against everything else. The funny thing is that everybody acts like NP is the reason infestors are so so OP but nobody ever complained about it before. It was just fungal, infested terran, chain fungals. People are so emotionally invested into hating infestors that they cheer for a nerf that breaks the game without examining why they really think infestors are OP and adjusting those issues. That's exactly the reason that zergs should not complain about infestors being useless after the patch. It's bad design yeah, because they could just remove the spell or buff another angle of it. But after that you say that the nerf is "breaking the game", so I don't know what to think anymore. LOL nobody every complained about amulet before it got REMOVED from the game... careful what you wish for. EXPLAIN to me your thought process on how the removal of KA is anything remotely comparable to completely changing how the spell 'Neural parasite" functions. I'm genuinely curious how so many people seem to make this ignorant correlation. It's comparable in that it was a big deal, in both cases, the main casters of each race and getting weakened, the way that are getting nerfed is different because of the implication it might have on the other race (being terran). that's why they seem so different.
So it's a nerf to zerg, (duh), and because the KA nerf was a nerf to Toss that makes them comparable. This game is so much more complicated than your simple mind can wrap itself around.
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My thoughts
U know what this helps?
air style
mech
most importantly, now u can go thor hellion vs zerg, u dont even need to worry about the tanks/ghosts... tbh i'm not sure if i like this or not, but when you think about it, having to get thor hellion tank AND ghost (assuming that my ghost thor hellion style won't work in pro level), that's 4 different units, compared to the 2-3 that terran usually uses (marine tank medivac, or like in BW marine sciencevessel medic)
now u can just mass thors now tho, so i'm not sure... then again, they'll have a lot more BLs now instead of infestors, which would be much more powerful if the zerg gets a good concave since the battle is more zerg favored as the numbers get larger
so conclusion, hurray i'm so happy i agree with this
NP might need to be cheaper on energy tho, or take away upgrade, as the 125 energy + upgrade was only cus it was so strong
anyways, keep in mind maps tend to be zerg favored rather than terran or protoss, like dual sight belshir beach crossfire and to lesser extents terminus and taldarim
hell even metal is pretty zerg favored
now terran/protoss doesn't have to worry about the infestors being so versatile (it's kind of stupid seeing all zergs juts mass infestors every game), and playing on "zerg" maps won't be so hard anymore
o and keep in mind hellions are nerfed, and rax (talking about PTR) so it's not like mech and air is getting total buffs (hellions can greatly help both air and mech styles)
it would be interesting to see ultralisks buffed, i think maybe a small movement speed buff or make their colossion size slightly smaller, they die so easy (keep the decreased time buff why not)
that way it'll force mech players to get tanks and not just pure thor hellion, making it more complex, and vs protoss it'll help against blink stalker colossi balls (infestors' synergy with buffed ultras would help make up for their nerfed fungal and removed NP) and forcing the protoss to get air tech would be sweet, and if they make NP easier to do/get then NP'ing voids would be cool
Just some thoughts, i think things can get really interesting but anyways I hope blizz can pull thru like usual :D
About the guys' post who was deleted due to double post, yes infestors are more expensive than stalkers but if you neural a stalker it's really like you're getting 2 stalkers, since, remember, you're giving yourself 1 stalker and taking away his. So, especially if your infestor (or even just some of them) survive, it's like 50/150 vs 250/100 cost, it's not that huge but hey if you already got enough to throw down several fungals, doing this might be worth it
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On September 10 2011 04:20 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 04:18 billiebrightside wrote:
I feel the Neural Parasite (if it goes through) will be similar to when we got our Amulet removed.
The thought of it was disastrous at first, but then we found a way to play with it. Zerg players are so used to NPing massive units, but then they will realize that NPing void rays, tanks, immortals, and HTs will be useful too. Hmm, removing KA made terrans start killing toss easier. This will make Toss kill Zerg Easier. So Next GSL, 20T, 10P, 2Z
Not necessarily. It will just stop zerg players who try to win with mass infestor and roach. Imagine a Protoss trying to win with mass stalker and high templar? It looks like with this, and the Ultras, Blizzard actually wants zerg to tech to tier 3 before winning.
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On September 10 2011 04:25 Cyanocyst wrote:
What LOL, NP not being able to target massive units. I can't even fathom. Just take the spell out of the fucking game, in that case. Id rather have something deleted than be completely useless.
Also delete hydras while your at it.
Yea, because hydras are so good
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On September 10 2011 04:30 hotwings wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 04:27 Benjef wrote:On September 10 2011 04:25 Cyanocyst wrote:
What LOL, NP not being able to target massive units. I can't even fathom. Just take the spell out of the fucking game, in that case. Id rather have something deleted than be completely useless. Theres still plenty of things to NP, just NPing all of some guys Collosus or Mothership is a bit OP... What am I going to NP in a protoss deathball. zealots?
well after the patch you won't be using neural parasite on anything =D
Oh my God you might have to build ultras late game! Them and broods can be the new "I win" zerg units.....
Seriously watch july zerg and some other pros use them, they are good...
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On September 10 2011 04:13 how2TL wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 04:06 clownzim wrote:On September 10 2011 03:50 -Archangel- wrote:On September 10 2011 03:46 clownzim wrote:
decrease any zerg spawn time is stupid. u spawn now TWO sets of ultras b4 ONE colli comes up chronoboosted. Except you can start building Colossi way before Zerg start building Ultras. Not to mentions Toss can turtle more easily against Zergs waiting for those colossi then Zerg can do against Toss. You cannot just look at two numbers and come to conclusions that mean anything. ok u can spawn lings b4 toss have even the gate up. thats not the point. if the colli and ultras are the late game units they should have somewhat of balanced spawn time. im not talking about protection urself. im talking about a tier 3 unit have almost half of spawn time than other tier 3. Build time of 75 vs 55 is almost half? Also why only compare those two numbers? Why not compare their range? Their damage? You cannot compare something isolated in SC2. It doesn't make sense. Might as well compare Zergling cs. Zealot build times since they're both Tier 1.
BCS IM talking about spawn time? i just sated that zerg can get lings on opponents base b4 he have unis (he surely wont have more than 2 fighting units). and another thing im not comparing two isolates number from sc2, im comparing spawn time of units that are (or should be) equivalent in terms of tier.
when u get 4 sets of ultras for 220 u get 3 set of colli in 225. 5 more seconds and a whole cycle behind at least. im sure that 4 ultras beat 3 colli if they are similar upgraded.
u cant compare their ranges, 1 is ranged other is "melee", the damage output is very similar. and or ultra has 300 more hp and at least 2 more armor. ultra still have bonus damage vs armor, colli has 200 hp 150shield. getting out the fact that colli has range, ultra is pretty dam equal or better than colli.
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On September 10 2011 02:14 Shade_CsT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:12 Zuxo wrote:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWW YEAH. If this change go through it will be so awesome To me, you look like " LOOOOOOOL This nerf is stupid and I'm gonna freewin with Attack-move Colossi Deathballs or Heavy Mech army !!! " You are not looking for game balance, you are looking for easy-win. It really shows how stupid this nerf is. It makes the game imbalanced (worst than the current state). Good thing it won't go live (as it is in PTR) 
It is nice that you know exactly what I am looking for and that you are totally changing my words.
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On September 10 2011 04:39 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 04:30 hotwings wrote:On September 10 2011 04:27 Benjef wrote:On September 10 2011 04:25 Cyanocyst wrote:
What LOL, NP not being able to target massive units. I can't even fathom. Just take the spell out of the fucking game, in that case. Id rather have something deleted than be completely useless. Theres still plenty of things to NP, just NPing all of some guys Collosus or Mothership is a bit OP... What am I going to NP in a protoss deathball. zealots? well after the patch you won't be using neural parasite on anything =D Oh my God you might have to build ultras late game! Them and broods can be the new "I win" zerg units..... Seriously watch july zerg and some other pros use them, they are good...
you can NP immortals, stalkers, voids, even HT
it'll still be useful, just you will have to think and not just go "oh yay colossi let's NP all of them" xD
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On September 10 2011 04:31 Primal666 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 04:27 Benjef wrote:On September 10 2011 04:25 Cyanocyst wrote:
What LOL, NP not being able to target massive units. I can't even fathom. Just take the spell out of the fucking game, in that case. Id rather have something deleted than be completely useless. Theres still plenty of things to NP, just NPing all of some guys Collosus or Mothership is a bit OP... yes because infestor isnt huge and hard 2 target down....
other then the fact that my whole army is fungaled in front a ling wall and my ranged collossi all got NP..... I'll just blink my stalke.... oh wait they are all fungaled too....
but any minute now those slow ass HT will catch up and I will be able to feedback!
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On September 10 2011 04:42 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 04:31 Primal666 wrote:On September 10 2011 04:27 Benjef wrote:On September 10 2011 04:25 Cyanocyst wrote:
What LOL, NP not being able to target massive units. I can't even fathom. Just take the spell out of the fucking game, in that case. Id rather have something deleted than be completely useless. Theres still plenty of things to NP, just NPing all of some guys Collosus or Mothership is a bit OP... yes because infestor isnt huge and hard 2 target down.... other then the fact that my whole army is fungaled in front a ling wall and my ranged collossi all got NP..... I'll just blink my stalke.... oh wait they are all fungaled too.... but any minute now those slow ass HT will catch up and I will be able to feedback!
Try using more than 1 hotkey to control your entire army.
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Basically fungal still counters the void/colossus deathball. However, agaisnt colossus/stalker based army, blizzard probably wants a mixture of units other than just mass ling(or/and roach)+infestors. The nerf to NP probably was there to allow toss to do more 2 base colossus timing as well as add a use to ultreas(Ultras+crackling+infestors>stalkers+colossus).
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You can still NP HT's and immortals right? NP is still viable imo.
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On September 10 2011 03:53 Cain0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 03:50 Treble557 wrote:On September 10 2011 03:44 Cain0 wrote:May I direct your attention to this idea; http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2624976791Instead of Massive units being immune to NP, Psyonic is immune to NP. This would help Protoss without breaking ZvT. What do you guys think? I like this idea actually. It'd still suck not being able to use NP in zvp, but.. atleast it won't make thor/broflame hellion combos unstoppable. Everyone seems to like this idea to be honest. Its definately the way forward.
Then what happens to EMP? You're still pretty fucked against EMP and Feedback... Infestors with 0 energy and no way to counter are totally useless... If your Ghost runs out of energy, you can still use it to attack (and RAPE Light units). If your High Templar runs out of energy, find another one and make a freakin' powerful Archon. What does an Infestor do when it runs out of energy? Burrow and run the fuck home bro.
Also, the way to deal with Thor/Hellion is Roach/Muta. The only remotely cost efficient way Terran has to deal with Mutalisks are Marines and Battlecruisers. That, or a FUCKTON of Vikings. Terran anti-air is way too reliant on Vikings and Marines. But at the same time, Zerg only has Queens, Hydras, Infestors, Corruptors and Mutas. The only semidecent ones are Hydras, Infestors, and Corruptors. But Hydras and Corruptors lose to like... EVERYTHING ELSE. Mutas are only good if you have a ridiculous amount of them, but even then they aren't that great. So Zerg anti-air is reliant on the Infestor or being forced into Hydras or Corruptors (usually Corruptors, except in ZvT where you go Muta anyway to harass). Now what does Protoss have? Stalkers, Sentries, Archons, High Templar, Void Ray, Carrier, Mothership and Phoenix. Which are viable? All except the Carrier, Mothership, and Sentries (still iffy on Sentries; and I know I skilled over possible anti-air for Terran, but I discussed the viable ones for them). And Protoss static defense attacks both air and ground. I know that has been a very old concept, but it feels like Protoss units are much more multipurpose than that of other races.
On September 10 2011 03:54 Watercrystal wrote:I just saw the update on NP... This means 2 things to me: a) as Blizz is adding a new Infestor nerf, the other Zerg (maybe Toss and Terran, too) nerf(s) are confirmed and will go live as-is. b) Since I am playing Protoss, heavily struggeling vs Infestors sometimes, it's time to partey hard! TBH this is a perfect patch for Toss (even if my Idea of adding a AA attack on colossi didn't happen :D) and I am really excited to play some games on it as I don't have the chance to play the PTR. Atleast you can NP Stalkers and Zealots, isn't that great? Cheers Watercrystal
a) This will make me cry tonight...
b) Are you kidding?! AA attack on the Colossus? Why don't we just give you WC3 Drow Ranger's Charm on your Sentries at 25 energy cost, give back the Void Ray's old DPS, and reduce the Carrier's cost and build time to 100/100/25s and pop out with 8 Interceptors when it spawns while we're at it? Yay! We can Neural Parasite units that are useless in low numbers... -.- That on top of all the buffs Protoss is getting... Jesus... Maybe people weren't complaining hard enough that Protoss was broken... Maybe complaining that something is broken will instead make Blizzard buff it? Damn...
On September 10 2011 03:57 Lomak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 03:56 Whitewing wrote:On September 10 2011 03:55 dogabutila wrote:On September 10 2011 03:48 EmilA wrote:On September 10 2011 03:35 urashimakt wrote:On September 10 2011 03:23 EmilA wrote:On September 10 2011 02:46 Treble557 wrote: http://sv.twitch.tv/colcatz/b/294620992 1:16 in for destiny/catz/kyles/reignfayths opinions on the NP changes. Lotta very good points are raised. Catz's mic is a bit super loud tho so.. Yeah. Be warned, lol. I'm sorry, but destiny even being grandmaster is testiment to infestors being overpowered. Make this guy play _any_ other zerg playstyle and he's terrible. He has quit his job to stream, and his level of play is centered around his one-trick-pony playstyle, so he has everything to lose and he's biased as hell. I don't see it as a question of whether or not the Infestor is an imbalanced unit so much as what is the point of Neural Parasite if it can't be used on units worth being used on. Anyone can comment on that, so why not a TL featured streamer? Because anyone can come up with a reason why something shouldn't be nerfed. Every terran could rightfully argue that blue flame hellions against workers can be solved by careful sim city - it'd be correct, but it wouldn't change the glaringly obvious fact that BF hellions are broken. Likewise, infestors can theoretically be handled by feedback, but in reality it just doesn't happen. Infestors are in a state where they're freaking ridiculous against pretty much everything but their intended counter units (that happen to be branched out specialist units) and even then, they're not being dominated by said units at all. If banelings did 45 damage, it would be still be possible for terran to trade cost effectively by splitting each marine individually, but banelings would still just be too good. Destiny just points out that there is a unit that can do alright against the infestor, which he thinks justifies the infestor being rather imbalanced against everything else. The funny thing is that everybody acts like NP is the reason infestors are so so OP but nobody ever complained about it before. It was just fungal, infested terran, chain fungals. People are so emotionally invested into hating infestors that they cheer for a nerf that breaks the game without examining why they really think infestors are OP and adjusting those issues. I'll trade you, nerf infested terrans to shit and you can keep Neural Parasite as is. As long as the changes are self serving who cares if they are actually bad for the game right?
The game isn't going to be truly balanced or make sense for a LONG time... We might as well give up on it until the final expansion comes out. It really makes very little difference right now what we do as long as it's balanced enough for a majority of the people to enjoy the game.
On September 10 2011 03:58 Begtse wrote:Show nested quote +Atleast you can NP Stalkers and Zealots, isn't that great? Cheers Watercrystal Yup while clossi will rape infestors hard!And all the rest of Z army as well :p NPing thors was nice.... Nice job blizz... Z gonna get raped again and again!
Maybe on ladder, but not on the GSL as long as NesTea is there! Well... Sometimes he loses... Otherwise he wouldn't be human...
On September 10 2011 04:01 raDon wrote:
Neutral Parasite nerf is the death for all zergs.
I needed months to deal with Protoss in fights and now im back in platinum.
Thanks Blizzard, you can destroy a race but are unable to fix closepositions.
If you're in struggling just to stay in platinum, just work on your macro and mechanics and you'll hit diamond in no time. But as Zerg, you need to know when to Drone hard and when you can sneak in Drones during army production... It's trickier than simply working on your macro as Terran or Protoss... You need to scout and have your units well placed to be prepared for everything.
I wouldn't say Blizzard destroyed a race... They gave Zerg other buffs as alternatives and to help for easier mid-game scouting.
And I do wish they'd fix close positions... On some maps in some matchups I'm biased towards keeping it since it makes the game easier (oddly enough, the only race with which I'd prefer it completely removed is Protoss; I sometimes prefer close positions as Z), but it's a bit dumb... I like the macro game, and removing close positions would make me more likely to main Zerg again, but eh... There are a lot of issues out there to fix...
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wow this is like a big FU to destiny's ling/infestor
i really dont like it, have it not affect psionic units [archon, ht, ghost, other infestor] but leave massive, collosi will force zerg to get corruptors now, which will be then just a simple switch to ht to render them worthless
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On September 10 2011 04:14 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 04:13 tkRage wrote:On September 10 2011 04:13 Angelbelow wrote:
I think the mothership, carrier and BC idea. We already have ultras that are immune, why not some of the other capital units (lol) for the other races invulnerable to NP. except ultras are 100% bad? Meanwhile Carriers/BC are rolling in all match-ups loooool.
BCs are plenty fine in TvT and haven't ever been played with in other matchups so what's your problem? Same with Carriers, nobody EVER tries to use them. Last time I can think of was... White-ra... and he won.
Yet, Ultras are known to be bad in all matchups except one new/kinda gimmicky zvz style.
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EPT
