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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 | ||
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laharl23
United States582 Posts
I hated going archons vs zerg because of the NP, i think its a good change. Its not going to break the game like everyone in here says, ive never seen a game where the guy won just because of a good NP. This just opens up more options vs zerg which is always a good thing, more variety of strategies= more exciting games. | ||
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clownzim
Brazil267 Posts
On September 10 2011 03:50 -Archangel- wrote: Except you can start building Colossi way before Zerg start building Ultras. Not to mentions Toss can turtle more easily against Zergs waiting for those colossi then Zerg can do against Toss. You cannot just look at two numbers and come to conclusions that mean anything. ok u can spawn lings b4 toss have even the gate up. thats not the point. if the colli and ultras are the late game units they should have somewhat of balanced spawn time. im not talking about protection urself. im talking about a tier 3 unit have almost half of spawn time than other tier 3. | ||
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wolfe
United States761 Posts
On September 10 2011 04:03 Treble557 wrote: Let's balance the other casters in the same way they balance infestors, shall we? - Snipe now does 1/4th it's actual damage to massive units. - Ghosts can no longer cast snipe or EMP while cloaked - Psy Storm Now does 20 dmg +60 to light. Perfectly fair changes imo. Perfectly horrible post. How many times do people have to tell you guys that making the races the same does not mean balance? | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
a) Mothership, Carrier and Battlecruicer immune to NP OR b) Make NP last less time against massive units | ||
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ma70
253 Posts
#1. Infested Terrans aren't overpowered and should be left alone. #2. Fungal Growth seemed to be the main problem with Infestors. #3. Neural Parasite was seemingly made to stop huge Colossus massing and what not....but it is unfair IMO for it to target stuff like Motherships and Battle Cruisers and Carriers. Those units are statistically great, but not feasible in most matchups unless you're using the as a gimmick/far ahead. I think the correct Neural Parasite nerf would be to make it so that Neural Parasite can't target Air units. It should only be allowed to target Colossus, and ground units. This would allow Neural Parasite to be useful against most common threats, but not against the big/powerful, but crappy air units. #4. I really really think that Fungal Growth should be a slow instead of a root. I think against non-massive units, Fungal Growth should slow by 75%, and against massive units, it should slow slightly less....something like 50% or so. Revert the damage nerf to give it the old maximum damage (which is a very high DPS spell). It seems strange to me that Fungal Growth is waaaay better than Psi Storm. It roots and does crazy damage, and Infestors get to start off with enough energy to cast it. Also, Infestors are faster than HT...just throwing this out there. #5. Last but not least, if the Neural Parasite nerf were to go through, they should do something about Corruptors. Maybe more HP, move speed, or attack speed. I don't know....but this will hopefully calm some people down? Or maybe they should reduce the energy cost of Neural Parasite, or increase its range by 1. Even better....have Neural Parasite by default with no Spell research required. | ||
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SafeAsCheese
United States4924 Posts
On September 10 2011 04:06 wolfe wrote: Perfectly horrible post. How many times do people have to tell you guys that making the races the same does not mean balance? Comparison is a good way to show absurdity | ||
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Twistacles
Canada1327 Posts
Imo, change it to: Mothership can no longer be under the effects of neural parasite. | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
On September 10 2011 04:05 laharl23 wrote: I think blink stalker/archon/colluses will be a good unit composition now. I hated going archons vs zerg because of the NP, i think its a good change. Its not going to break the game like everyone in here says, ive never seen a game where the guy won just because of a good NP. This just opens up more options vs zerg which is always a good thing, more variety of strategies= more exciting games. No it really just means toss is going to go colossus heavy every game making for less variety of strategy=less exciting games | ||
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Wasteweiser
Canada522 Posts
I just think this really swings zvp back into toss field, could be wrong i dont really watch the matchup. | ||
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Zerker
Canada201 Posts
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On September 10 2011 04:04 RyLai wrote: Okay... So the new changes are Broodlords being revealed when attacking from high ground (is this even necessary?) and Neural Parasite not working on Massive units... I'm really not liking the second one... It's nice for Terran since we don't have to worry about our Thors (or somehow Battlecruisers?) to be Neural Parasited if we go for a mech army (which was about the only way to deal with it aside from MASSSSSSSSSS magic box Mutas)... I don't see it affecting very high level ZvT at all... But for ZvP... Man is that a giant bummer... No longer does Protoss have to worry about 5 Colossi getting Neural Parasited and demolishing their own army if they don't micro... Before, you split up so Fungal Growth doesn't lock down all your Stalkers, then you Blink in and snipe off Infestors using Neural Parasite on your Colossi and use whatever units you have left in range (other Colossi) to snipe the rest. But... If you take that away, you only take over Void Rays and Immortals... And if they don't make either, well you're kind of in luck and kind of screwed... If they made Immortals, your Roaches get demolished (as if 5 Colossi don't do that anyway), if they made Void Rays, you need Corruptors (fuck Hydras cause of Colossi) to deal with them. So if they go for either you Neural Parasite those instead and use them to focus down the Colossi... But if they don't, then you just don't get Neural Parasite unless you have extra money or want to be ready for a sudden tech switch... For Terran, it was kind of hard for us since we can't stim forward to snipe the Infestors... They Fungal Growth us, and the Marines basically die. But... We should be using our Tanks to focus fire the Infestors anyway. So again, this doesn't make any difference in ZvT. I still don't like the nerfs to Z and T (except the much needed change to the Pre-Igniter upgrade to encourage biomech play again). I feel like Banshees should get a hard nerf... That would somewhat help the 1-1-1 issue (nerf the damage, starting energy, and maybe even HP, maybe buff speed). I mean, Banshees can single-handedly end the game if you're not ready for them... And even then, they can end the game if you're not ready for MASS Banshees. I really don't think a Queen should lose to a Banshee 1:1... Maybe 1:2... But not 1:1... The only buff I think Protoss should get (aside from the nerfs that buff everything defending against a 4 Gate and encourages Protoss macro play) is the Mothership buff... It's been nerfs SO MANY TIMES and has never gotten anything back for it... It's about time it gets SOMETHING to help make it a more useful unit... But I also feel that the warp in mechanic, Colossi, Void Rays, and Marines should all get nerfed at the same time (otherwise there becomes massive balance issues since with nerfed Marines, how do you defend 3 Gate VR?; and how in the hell are you going to deal with Robo/Stargate/Templar plays late game?). That way, the 1-1-1 is further nerfed, the 2 Rax is nerfed, the 4 Rax is nerfed, the 5, 6, 7 and bullshit 3 Rax are nerfed. But oh my God... Mutas will be Godly in ZvT... But yeah... It's very hard to balance the game... We'll just take it 1 step at a time and the races that get the short end of the stick will cry until they learn to deal with it or a patch comes to fix it. I'd say Terran will cry the most after this patch, but from what I've seen, Terrans seem to be the most adaptive and experimental group of players... But maybe that's because most do dumb shit and get away with it because Terran has some unbelievably dumb shit that's difficult to defend without really good scouting and experience, so they keep winning with non-mainstream strategies anyway... Yay for relying on the metagame! -.- Sniping infestors that are within a roach ball isn't easy. Only colossi could really do that, and once you steal one, the rest of them fall in chain reaction. Blinking in stalkers that arent' fungaled is almost suicidal, because once you've killed off the infestors, ff's aren't going to be helping you, and roaches that can hit stalkers destroy stalkers. The other option is for feedback to cancel neural parasite, which would be insanely helpful, and make it so I don't have to suicidally blink in to survive | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
The simple truth of this is that Nestea, Losira and Coca had 70% ZvP winrate without using Infestors for a long time. Go watch Coca vs HuK at MLG Raleigh, where Coca wins with goddamned Roach/Hydra/Corruptor after maxing out around 13:30. I do think it's kind of silly that mass Infestors without any support are as good as they are, a caster unit shouldn't be able to do that. But these changes probably won't fix that at all. | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
On September 10 2011 04:03 Treble557 wrote: Let's balance the other casters in the same way they balance infestors, shall we? - Snipe now does 1/4th it's actual damage to massive units. - Ghosts can no longer cast snipe or EMP while cloaked - Psy Storm Now does 20 dmg +60 to light. Perfectly fair changes imo. You didn't finish. - HT's can now burrow and burrow move - HT's are as fast as regular units | ||
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Treble557
United States221 Posts
Blue posted talking about the feedback from the PTR note changes. We were basically all told to go on the PTR and try it before we say anything else. Also, to keep this stuff within the PTR forum so they can have an easier time sifting through it, as they apparently do infact read the stuff in there. | ||
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how2TL
1197 Posts
On September 10 2011 04:06 clownzim wrote: ok u can spawn lings b4 toss have even the gate up. thats not the point. if the colli and ultras are the late game units they should have somewhat of balanced spawn time. im not talking about protection urself. im talking about a tier 3 unit have almost half of spawn time than other tier 3. Build time of 75 vs 55 is almost half? Also why only compare those two numbers? Why not compare their range? Their damage? You cannot compare something isolated in SC2. It doesn't make sense. Might as well compare Zergling cs. Zealot build times since they're both Tier 1. On September 10 2011 04:06 wolfe wrote: Perfectly horrible post. How many times do people have to tell you guys that making the races the same does not mean balance? His proposed changes sound terrible. If the races were the same, that would be balance. It wouldn't be *interesting* but balanced would be a perfectly acceptable word. | ||
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Angelbelow
United States3728 Posts
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tkRage
225 Posts
On September 10 2011 04:13 Angelbelow wrote: I think the mothership, carrier and BC idea. We already have ultras that are immune, why not some of the other capital units (lol) for the other races invulnerable to NP. except ultras are 100% bad? | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
Meanwhile Carriers/BC are rolling in all match-ups loooool. | ||
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LittleAtari
Jordan1090 Posts
neural shouldn't be something that can be casted so easily and quickly, but I dont think changing it so that it cant hit massive is the solution. | ||
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