|
Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
I have played many games where my HTs get fungal before they ever get into feedback range. With good control the zerg can chain fungals and stay safe.
Feedback range 9
Fungal Growth range 9 with a radius of 2
|
On September 09 2011 13:37 Breadstick wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:32 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:29 Breadstick wrote:On September 09 2011 13:28 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:26 Breadstick wrote:On September 09 2011 13:24 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:20 ReignFayth wrote:On September 09 2011 13:18 BigKahunaBurger wrote:
Have they seriously not thought of the logic of the neural parasite change?
Why on earth would you ever want to NP a unit that ISN'T massive?
Eliminating Colossi, Thors and Archons is around about 90% of all things you NP.
Tanks and Immortals are the only things left, are very situational, and are probably not worth the research. good so infestor still has 2 great spells....... It takes 10 consecutive fungals to kill a thor. If they have about 5 of them spread out? Great spell. yeah you're right fungal is awful because it does poorly against a certain unit ... Yeah actually, I'm correct in this. Because we needed one spell to counter-act this "certain unit" that is going to destroy the match up now. This "certain unit" is going to wreck face. so fungal wasn't the answer to that before and it still isn't you don't need the infestor to counter every unit comp, you know I'd accept this, if you had proposed any other way in which Zerg could beat the huge mech push that hits before broodlords. Roaches or Hydras? Tanks. Zerglings? Hellion. Mutas? Thors. The infestor is a necessary unit. what? you're saying fungal is bad because it doesn't beat thors and i'm saying that doesn't make it bad i don't need to tell you how to beat a unit comp just by saying that
Dude, no one is talking about fungal being bad in general.
The discussion is about neural parasite and how it is needed to beat a very difficult composition.
Your answer to me was: fungal is a good spell.
How does that solve anything?
|
On September 09 2011 13:39 tuho12345 wrote:wooohooo fuck yes !!! No more destroying the entire mech and colossus armies with just a couple infestors. That's so damn imbalance and now It's awesome!
Are you kidding? Now Zerg just gets utterly rolled.
|
On September 09 2011 13:39 Grimjim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:37 Breadstick wrote:On September 09 2011 13:32 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:29 Breadstick wrote:On September 09 2011 13:28 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:26 Breadstick wrote:On September 09 2011 13:24 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:20 ReignFayth wrote:On September 09 2011 13:18 BigKahunaBurger wrote:
Have they seriously not thought of the logic of the neural parasite change?
Why on earth would you ever want to NP a unit that ISN'T massive?
Eliminating Colossi, Thors and Archons is around about 90% of all things you NP.
Tanks and Immortals are the only things left, are very situational, and are probably not worth the research. good so infestor still has 2 great spells....... It takes 10 consecutive fungals to kill a thor. If they have about 5 of them spread out? Great spell. yeah you're right fungal is awful because it does poorly against a certain unit ... Yeah actually, I'm correct in this. Because we needed one spell to counter-act this "certain unit" that is going to destroy the match up now. This "certain unit" is going to wreck face. so fungal wasn't the answer to that before and it still isn't you don't need the infestor to counter every unit comp, you know I'd accept this, if you had proposed any other way in which Zerg could beat the huge mech push that hits before broodlords. Roaches or Hydras? Tanks. Zerglings? Hellion. Mutas? Thors. The infestor is a necessary unit. what? you're saying fungal is bad because it doesn't beat thors and i'm saying that doesn't make it bad i don't need to tell you how to beat a unit comp just by saying that When the Infestor was the only way to defeat the "death ball" unit comps, nerfing the only way it could actually do that is making it bad.
NP change doesn't make fungal bad
|
I don't really see the point of neural parasite anymore honestly... for 100 energy I would rather have 4 infested terrans rather then any non massive unit in most fights. I mean you could do some cool stuff vs high templars maybe if neural has a larger range than feedback (basically to prevent feedbacks on infestors), and tanks/vikings are still important units to neural. But overall the spell is nearly useless from what I can see, unless there is some uses we haven't seen being used extensively yet.
|
United States7483 Posts
On September 09 2011 13:38 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:35 Whitewing wrote:On September 09 2011 13:33 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:32 ReignFayth wrote:On September 09 2011 13:24 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:20 ReignFayth wrote:On September 09 2011 13:18 BigKahunaBurger wrote:
Have they seriously not thought of the logic of the neural parasite change?
Why on earth would you ever want to NP a unit that ISN'T massive?
Eliminating Colossi, Thors and Archons is around about 90% of all things you NP.
Tanks and Immortals are the only things left, are very situational, and are probably not worth the research. good so infestor still has 2 great spells....... It takes 10 consecutive fungals to kill a thor. If they have about 5 of them spread out? Great spell. it takes many storm to kill a thor as well... I still think it's a good spell lol I'm really not sure what your point was The issue that I am voicing concern over is a mech terran or deathball protoss with many colossi. Having 2 other great spells doesn't mean anything if you cannot win against these strats. Brood lords say hi. I hear they work well with infestors. As I have said before, it hits before broodlords are out. But you know thats totally, fair, having to rely on using one unit entirely that is easily countered by vikings.
Protoss is in the same situation buddy, high templar are nearly unusable in most PvT's now when ghosts come out, so it's relying on colossi again. And as I said a while back (you may have missed it), heavy roach play does okay vs. mass thor, and you can neural the tanks if he makes them and fungal the hellions.
|
On September 09 2011 13:41 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:37 Breadstick wrote:On September 09 2011 13:32 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:29 Breadstick wrote:On September 09 2011 13:28 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:26 Breadstick wrote:On September 09 2011 13:24 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:20 ReignFayth wrote:On September 09 2011 13:18 BigKahunaBurger wrote:
Have they seriously not thought of the logic of the neural parasite change?
Why on earth would you ever want to NP a unit that ISN'T massive?
Eliminating Colossi, Thors and Archons is around about 90% of all things you NP.
Tanks and Immortals are the only things left, are very situational, and are probably not worth the research. good so infestor still has 2 great spells....... It takes 10 consecutive fungals to kill a thor. If they have about 5 of them spread out? Great spell. yeah you're right fungal is awful because it does poorly against a certain unit ... Yeah actually, I'm correct in this. Because we needed one spell to counter-act this "certain unit" that is going to destroy the match up now. This "certain unit" is going to wreck face. so fungal wasn't the answer to that before and it still isn't you don't need the infestor to counter every unit comp, you know I'd accept this, if you had proposed any other way in which Zerg could beat the huge mech push that hits before broodlords. Roaches or Hydras? Tanks. Zerglings? Hellion. Mutas? Thors. The infestor is a necessary unit. what? you're saying fungal is bad because it doesn't beat thors and i'm saying that doesn't make it bad i don't need to tell you how to beat a unit comp just by saying that Dude, no one is talking about fungal being bad in general. The discussion is about neural parasite and how it is needed to beat a very difficult composition. Your answer to me was: fungal is a good spell. How does that solve anything?
maybe it was someone else, but i was replying to you thinking you said it takes 10 fungals to kill thors and saying it was a bad spell
|
Some people overlook the recent buff to Neural Parasite (Neural Parasited units now retain their upgrades).
The infestor countering every tech unit AND the games' AI naturally clumping makes it too effective, this leaves very little variety in zerg strategy which is why I agree with this change.
Also mothership just became an option other than to humiliate an already beaten opponent.
|
On September 09 2011 13:37 desrow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:33 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:29 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:27 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:22 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:19 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:13 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:11 Nomad123 wrote:
so instead of encouraging toss/terran to use HT/ghost and learn to feedback/EMP the infestors, they make the neural useless??
U can't feedback when ur fungal'd You can't feedback when theres a line of 6-10 broodlords shooting at ur army feedback is an ez answer but a bitch to use spread out your HT, toss has got into the habit of just making one giant ball. when you're at the part where opponent has 6-10 broodlords, you obviously have a lot of high tier units yourself. you will be able to spread out your ball to at least two and still be cost effective. then your HT spread out between the two balls and cast feedbacks. terrans can just spread out ghosts, cloak & EMP. zergs learned the hard way to spread out their infestors too against good HT users. why can't toss learn to use HT properly? zvt is easier than zvp when it comes to infestors because in zvt zerg cant make 30 infestor, emp does aoe burn in zvp feedback can be casted 4 times by 1 templar and thats if u dont get fungal owned by broodlords before that, you guys are all QQing way too hard, the game won't be broken ull still need 10 infestors ish to have a decent battle but ull need goo positioning and kiting with your corruptor to not die people don't understand that removing massive is good. now instead of protoss having to fight 2 set of tier 3 unit (our collosus archons) and the zerg's tier 3 unit, we just have to fight the zergs unit you said it yourself, 1 HT can feedback 4 times. that means it can feedback 4 infestors if it gets in range. if you have fast hands, you can feedback 2-3 infestors before opponent fungals you. HT and fungal are same range. spread out your HT, don't just make one giant ball and push. you keep adding "broodlord" in your example, so the problem to you is the broodlord then, not the infestors. you can feedback 4times if your templar has 200 energy fungal has slightly better range just like emp has slightly longer range than feedback blaming toss users on feedback for the nerf is ridiculous oh one more fact our templar are retardly slow like baby steps and ur infestors actually have a decent movement speed both templars & infestors wait to regenerate energy. that part is fair. if you have 200 energy templars, then infestors will have high energy as well. now you remove broodlord from your argument. thank you. you obviously were too short sighted with your examples. templars are ridiculously slow for their own good. infestor movement speed was reduced also last patch, for their own good. this helps players not have their spellcasters die cause they move so fast and go in front of battle. reality is, if opponent can fungal you, you can feedback them as well. movement speed is not a factor in your argument. I don't know why I'm spending so much time arguing with someone with such a low post count but FUNGAL has LONGER range than FEEDBACK because the circle thingy GOES further THAN the range of feedback going to bed have fun cryin zergs 
Oh look, someone with no major tournament wins is acting superior to a forum poster. Why don't you win some tournaments before you talk down to those on this forum? You have to earn your superiority first.
|
United States7483 Posts
On September 09 2011 13:38 Grimjim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:35 Whitewing wrote:On September 09 2011 13:34 Grimjim wrote:
Why this sudden outcry of Infestors being too powerful? Why did it take a ridiculous change from Blizzard for all these naysayers about balance to come out of the woodwork and defend this stupid nerf?
You are all just taking advantage of a stupid change to further your own Platinum league experience without taking mind of the game as a whole and the outcome it will have on eSports in general.
With this nerf, Infestors will become useless in any battle past fifteen minutes. Zerg players will disappear from tournaments, and every televised game will be mirror matchups or PvT 1 and 2 base timing attacks. All because you morons wanted to get to top 8 in your Platinum league without learning how to micro your caster units. It's not new, you haven't been paying attention. A lot of protoss players have been complaining about it for months now. Really? Because the general consensus I'm getting is that this is an over the top, stupid change. All I see is your desperate attempts at defending this change for obvious reasons. You can have the Neural change, but Collosus and Thors are now limited to 3 total on the field at once. I think that's fair. Don't you?
That's the weirdest argument I've ever heard, does that actually make logical sense to you? The general consensus you are getting in this thread is because tons of zergs are jumping in to complain. There have been dozens of threads from protoss (and even terran players) saying "infester OP" over the past few months.
Do you honestly think it was okay and good for the infester to counter every single unit?
|
Ultras counter Thors hard, and they just got buffed.
|
On September 09 2011 13:34 IWork4Skynet wrote:
ZvT/P is gonna be horrible again, NP is essential to discourage large Thor/Collosi forces. I realize that mass infestors are too strong against Protoss but this change is too extreme.
As a suggestion why not make it so NP can't be casted on psionic units? (Sentries,
HTs, DTs, Archons, Warp Prism, Mothership, Ghosts, Queens, Infestors according to Liquipedia)
Heavy collosi builds will still be countered by NP infestors, but archon/zealot compositions will be stronger against ling/infestors. ZvT will be almost unaffected because infestors try to stay as far away from ghosts as possible anyway.
Plus it makes sense that psionic units can resist a psionic spell right?
A much better idea, both for game balance and for lore!
|
On September 09 2011 13:41 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:39 tuho12345 wrote:wooohooo fuck yes !!! No more destroying the entire mech and colossus armies with just a couple infestors. That's so damn imbalance and now It's awesome! Are you kidding? Now Zerg just gets utterly rolled.
Are you kidding? I can't remember the last time a zerg ever needed NP in the GSL to win vs. protoss. No one uses that gimmicky strat except destiny.
|
btw i hope they rmove the Waprism buff as well, without it even dealing with WP is a bitch, this week so many protosses are doing 2 base WP play, soo hard to hold it off even when you know 100% it is coming
On September 09 2011 13:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:41 babylon wrote:On September 09 2011 13:39 tuho12345 wrote:wooohooo fuck yes !!! No more destroying the entire mech and colossus armies with just a couple infestors. That's so damn imbalance and now It's awesome! Are you kidding? Now Zerg just gets utterly rolled. Are you kidding? I can't remember the last time a zerg ever needed NP in the GSL to win vs. protoss. No one uses that gimmicky strat except destiny.
you couldnt be more wrong seriously, Destiny has one version of ling infestor but there are a ton of zergs who use some variation, including me, and i rely really heavily on NP, my build on which i worked for quite a bit goes in the toilet if this terrible nerf goes trough
|
On September 09 2011 13:43 Grimjim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:37 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:33 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:29 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:27 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:22 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:19 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:13 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:11 Nomad123 wrote:
so instead of encouraging toss/terran to use HT/ghost and learn to feedback/EMP the infestors, they make the neural useless??
U can't feedback when ur fungal'd You can't feedback when theres a line of 6-10 broodlords shooting at ur army feedback is an ez answer but a bitch to use spread out your HT, toss has got into the habit of just making one giant ball. when you're at the part where opponent has 6-10 broodlords, you obviously have a lot of high tier units yourself. you will be able to spread out your ball to at least two and still be cost effective. then your HT spread out between the two balls and cast feedbacks. terrans can just spread out ghosts, cloak & EMP. zergs learned the hard way to spread out their infestors too against good HT users. why can't toss learn to use HT properly? zvt is easier than zvp when it comes to infestors because in zvt zerg cant make 30 infestor, emp does aoe burn in zvp feedback can be casted 4 times by 1 templar and thats if u dont get fungal owned by broodlords before that, you guys are all QQing way too hard, the game won't be broken ull still need 10 infestors ish to have a decent battle but ull need goo positioning and kiting with your corruptor to not die people don't understand that removing massive is good. now instead of protoss having to fight 2 set of tier 3 unit (our collosus archons) and the zerg's tier 3 unit, we just have to fight the zergs unit you said it yourself, 1 HT can feedback 4 times. that means it can feedback 4 infestors if it gets in range. if you have fast hands, you can feedback 2-3 infestors before opponent fungals you. HT and fungal are same range. spread out your HT, don't just make one giant ball and push. you keep adding "broodlord" in your example, so the problem to you is the broodlord then, not the infestors. you can feedback 4times if your templar has 200 energy fungal has slightly better range just like emp has slightly longer range than feedback blaming toss users on feedback for the nerf is ridiculous oh one more fact our templar are retardly slow like baby steps and ur infestors actually have a decent movement speed both templars & infestors wait to regenerate energy. that part is fair. if you have 200 energy templars, then infestors will have high energy as well. now you remove broodlord from your argument. thank you. you obviously were too short sighted with your examples. templars are ridiculously slow for their own good. infestor movement speed was reduced also last patch, for their own good. this helps players not have their spellcasters die cause they move so fast and go in front of battle. reality is, if opponent can fungal you, you can feedback them as well. movement speed is not a factor in your argument. I don't know why I'm spending so much time arguing with someone with such a low post count but FUNGAL has LONGER range than FEEDBACK because the circle thingy GOES further THAN the range of feedback going to bed have fun cryin zergs Oh look, someone with no major tournament wins is acting superior to a forum poster. Why don't you win some tournaments before you talk down to those on this forum? You have to earn your superiority first.
it's ok grimjim, i pointed out to him that he's wrong. feedback & fungal are same range.
i'll assume he'll conveniently be quiet now, and should start to learn how to use HT and feedback
|
On September 09 2011 13:41 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:38 Lomak wrote:On September 09 2011 13:36 NineteenSC2 wrote:
Lol, this is how toss felt when khaydarian amulet was removed. Anyway, the infestor was just too good of a unit. Good against sentries, void rays, carriers, mothership, zealots, stalkers, pheonixes, probes. Good for defending, as well as attacking, as well as harrassing. In a strategy game this is defined as overpowered.
Don't worry guys, the ghost is next. That is completely different. "Storm no longer does damage to light units" makes about as much sense as "Neural doesn't work on massive" No the KA nerf basically made HTs read "Storm no longer does damage for the first 30 seconds" And I also hope the ghost is next as well.
The point is, the KA nerf didn't change the functionality of the storm spell WHATSOEVER, it's still the same spell. Neural parasite will NOT be the same spell if the change goes through.
|
People are acting as if its the end of the world for every Zerg player. Sure it's a big change, but a change is needed. How can it be completely acceptable to win a game by just massing 1 unit. This change is needed in PvZ due to the fact that infestors are just too good. They have 3 spells that are really good, and know they are just going to nerf 1 of the spells to help the match up.
|
On September 09 2011 13:42 Breadstick wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:41 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:37 Breadstick wrote:On September 09 2011 13:32 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:29 Breadstick wrote:On September 09 2011 13:28 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:26 Breadstick wrote:On September 09 2011 13:24 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:20 ReignFayth wrote:On September 09 2011 13:18 BigKahunaBurger wrote:
Have they seriously not thought of the logic of the neural parasite change?
Why on earth would you ever want to NP a unit that ISN'T massive?
Eliminating Colossi, Thors and Archons is around about 90% of all things you NP.
Tanks and Immortals are the only things left, are very situational, and are probably not worth the research. good so infestor still has 2 great spells....... It takes 10 consecutive fungals to kill a thor. If they have about 5 of them spread out? Great spell. yeah you're right fungal is awful because it does poorly against a certain unit ... Yeah actually, I'm correct in this. Because we needed one spell to counter-act this "certain unit" that is going to destroy the match up now. This "certain unit" is going to wreck face. so fungal wasn't the answer to that before and it still isn't you don't need the infestor to counter every unit comp, you know I'd accept this, if you had proposed any other way in which Zerg could beat the huge mech push that hits before broodlords. Roaches or Hydras? Tanks. Zerglings? Hellion. Mutas? Thors. The infestor is a necessary unit. what? you're saying fungal is bad because it doesn't beat thors and i'm saying that doesn't make it bad i don't need to tell you how to beat a unit comp just by saying that Dude, no one is talking about fungal being bad in general. The discussion is about neural parasite and how it is needed to beat a very difficult composition. Your answer to me was: fungal is a good spell. How does that solve anything? maybe it was someone else, but i was replying to you thinking you said it takes 10 fungals to kill thors and saying it was a bad spell
Yeah, in the context of beating a mech army, it's bad.
Which Neural parasite is not at.
Which is the balance change we're discussing.
You were just mad, so you wanted to bring attention to fungal.
But that wasn't part of the discussion at all.
|
You guys need to stop looking at the change with tunnel vision.
Don't look at it from the point of view that np will be useless because it won't. You can still np ghosts, sentries, high templars, ravens, void rays, etc...
Look at it from the point of view that the infestor was a unit which was strong against almost every single unit in the game and good in every situation (attack, defend, harrass, take out cloak).
The unit was simply too good.
Tosses thought they'd get rolled without khaydarian amulet, but they learned to live without it.
Same goes for zerg.
|
On September 09 2011 13:44 cnc wrote:
Ultras counter Thors hard, and they just got buffed.
Ultras definitely do not counter Thors. Thors counter Ultras.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
