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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
United States7483 Posts
On September 09 2011 13:40 Nomad123 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:37 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:33 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:29 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:27 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:22 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:19 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:13 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:11 Nomad123 wrote:
so instead of encouraging toss/terran to use HT/ghost and learn to feedback/EMP the infestors, they make the neural useless??
U can't feedback when ur fungal'd You can't feedback when theres a line of 6-10 broodlords shooting at ur army feedback is an ez answer but a bitch to use spread out your HT, toss has got into the habit of just making one giant ball. when you're at the part where opponent has 6-10 broodlords, you obviously have a lot of high tier units yourself. you will be able to spread out your ball to at least two and still be cost effective. then your HT spread out between the two balls and cast feedbacks. terrans can just spread out ghosts, cloak & EMP. zergs learned the hard way to spread out their infestors too against good HT users. why can't toss learn to use HT properly? zvt is easier than zvp when it comes to infestors because in zvt zerg cant make 30 infestor, emp does aoe burn in zvp feedback can be casted 4 times by 1 templar and thats if u dont get fungal owned by broodlords before that, you guys are all QQing way too hard, the game won't be broken ull still need 10 infestors ish to have a decent battle but ull need goo positioning and kiting with your corruptor to not die people don't understand that removing massive is good. now instead of protoss having to fight 2 set of tier 3 unit (our collosus archons) and the zerg's tier 3 unit, we just have to fight the zergs unit you said it yourself, 1 HT can feedback 4 times. that means it can feedback 4 infestors if it gets in range. if you have fast hands, you can feedback 2-3 infestors before opponent fungals you. HT and fungal are same range. spread out your HT, don't just make one giant ball and push. you keep adding "broodlord" in your example, so the problem to you is the broodlord then, not the infestors. you can feedback 4times if your templar has 200 energy fungal has slightly better range just like emp has slightly longer range than feedback blaming toss users on feedback for the nerf is ridiculous oh one more fact our templar are retardly slow like baby steps and ur infestors actually have a decent movement speed both templars & infestors wait to regenerate energy. that part is fair. if you have 200 energy templars, then infestors will have high energy as well. now you remove broodlord from your argument. thank you. you obviously were too short sighted with your examples. templars are ridiculously slow for their own good. infestor movement speed was reduced also last patch, for their own good. this helps players not have their spellcasters die cause they move so fast and go in front of battle. reality is, if opponent can fungal you, you can feedback them as well. movement speed is not a factor in your argument. I don't know why I'm spending so much time arguing with someone with such a low post count but FUNGAL has LONGER range than FEEDBACK because the circle thingy GOES further THAN the range of feedback going to bed have fun cryin zergs  fungal growth & feedback are same range. check it here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Infestorhttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/High_templari'm surprised your game knowledge is flawed for someone with oh so many posts i didn't know post count translates to game understanding too? nice logic bro was it the same logic that you used when you inserted broodlords into your argument? i say again, fact is, if opponent can fungal you, you can feedback them. you obviously don't know how to use HT that's why you think fungal has longer range.
Fungal Growth is an area of effect spell, which means the maximum distance it can effect with a cast is greater than a range of 9. Therefore, it outranges high templar if you get them with the edge of the fungal.
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On September 09 2011 13:36 NineteenSC2 wrote:
Lol, this is how toss felt when khaydarian amulet was removed. Anyway, the infestor was just too good of a unit. Good against sentries, void rays, carriers, mothership, zealots, stalkers, pheonixes, archons, collosi, dts, observers, and probes. Good for defending, as well as attacking, as well as harrassing. In a strategy game when there's a unit that's good at everything the correct phrase to drescribe it is: overpowered
p.s. left the high templar out cause that's debatable.
Don't worry guys, the ghost is next.
I would agree completely if we had other units that could handle the role the infestor has been filling. Corruptors and Hydras (our only other AA) are terrible units with a high cost. If a buff to either of those doesn't happen I don't see Zerg doing well in the future.
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On September 09 2011 13:45 nV wrote:
People are acting as if its the end of the world for every Zerg player. Sure it's a big change, but a change is needed. How can it be completely acceptable to win a game by just massing 1 unit. This change is needed in PvZ due to the fact that infestors are just too good. They have 3 spells that are really good, and know they are just going to nerf 1 of the spells to help the match up.
Just by massing one unit? Uhh... mass blink stalker?
The problem is that they're nerfing the wrong spell.
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On September 09 2011 13:45 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:42 Breadstick wrote:On September 09 2011 13:41 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:37 Breadstick wrote:On September 09 2011 13:32 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:29 Breadstick wrote:On September 09 2011 13:28 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:26 Breadstick wrote:On September 09 2011 13:24 BigKahunaBurger wrote:On September 09 2011 13:20 ReignFayth wrote:
[quote]
good so infestor still has 2 great spells....... It takes 10 consecutive fungals to kill a thor. If they have about 5 of them spread out? Great spell. yeah you're right fungal is awful because it does poorly against a certain unit ... Yeah actually, I'm correct in this. Because we needed one spell to counter-act this "certain unit" that is going to destroy the match up now. This "certain unit" is going to wreck face. so fungal wasn't the answer to that before and it still isn't you don't need the infestor to counter every unit comp, you know I'd accept this, if you had proposed any other way in which Zerg could beat the huge mech push that hits before broodlords. Roaches or Hydras? Tanks. Zerglings? Hellion. Mutas? Thors. The infestor is a necessary unit. what? you're saying fungal is bad because it doesn't beat thors and i'm saying that doesn't make it bad i don't need to tell you how to beat a unit comp just by saying that Dude, no one is talking about fungal being bad in general. The discussion is about neural parasite and how it is needed to beat a very difficult composition. Your answer to me was: fungal is a good spell. How does that solve anything? maybe it was someone else, but i was replying to you thinking you said it takes 10 fungals to kill thors and saying it was a bad spell Yeah, in the context of beating a mech army, it's bad. Which Neural parasite is not at. Which is the balance change we're discussing. You were just mad, so you wanted to bring attention to fungal. But that wasn't part of the discussion at all.
clearly i'm mad by pointing out how fungal isn't a bad spell just because it doesn't perform well against thors
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On September 09 2011 13:44 Nomad123 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:43 Grimjim wrote:On September 09 2011 13:37 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:33 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:29 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:27 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:22 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:19 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:13 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:11 Nomad123 wrote:
so instead of encouraging toss/terran to use HT/ghost and learn to feedback/EMP the infestors, they make the neural useless??
U can't feedback when ur fungal'd You can't feedback when theres a line of 6-10 broodlords shooting at ur army feedback is an ez answer but a bitch to use spread out your HT, toss has got into the habit of just making one giant ball. when you're at the part where opponent has 6-10 broodlords, you obviously have a lot of high tier units yourself. you will be able to spread out your ball to at least two and still be cost effective. then your HT spread out between the two balls and cast feedbacks. terrans can just spread out ghosts, cloak & EMP. zergs learned the hard way to spread out their infestors too against good HT users. why can't toss learn to use HT properly? zvt is easier than zvp when it comes to infestors because in zvt zerg cant make 30 infestor, emp does aoe burn in zvp feedback can be casted 4 times by 1 templar and thats if u dont get fungal owned by broodlords before that, you guys are all QQing way too hard, the game won't be broken ull still need 10 infestors ish to have a decent battle but ull need goo positioning and kiting with your corruptor to not die people don't understand that removing massive is good. now instead of protoss having to fight 2 set of tier 3 unit (our collosus archons) and the zerg's tier 3 unit, we just have to fight the zergs unit you said it yourself, 1 HT can feedback 4 times. that means it can feedback 4 infestors if it gets in range. if you have fast hands, you can feedback 2-3 infestors before opponent fungals you. HT and fungal are same range. spread out your HT, don't just make one giant ball and push. you keep adding "broodlord" in your example, so the problem to you is the broodlord then, not the infestors. you can feedback 4times if your templar has 200 energy fungal has slightly better range just like emp has slightly longer range than feedback blaming toss users on feedback for the nerf is ridiculous oh one more fact our templar are retardly slow like baby steps and ur infestors actually have a decent movement speed both templars & infestors wait to regenerate energy. that part is fair. if you have 200 energy templars, then infestors will have high energy as well. now you remove broodlord from your argument. thank you. you obviously were too short sighted with your examples. templars are ridiculously slow for their own good. infestor movement speed was reduced also last patch, for their own good. this helps players not have their spellcasters die cause they move so fast and go in front of battle. reality is, if opponent can fungal you, you can feedback them as well. movement speed is not a factor in your argument. I don't know why I'm spending so much time arguing with someone with such a low post count but FUNGAL has LONGER range than FEEDBACK because the circle thingy GOES further THAN the range of feedback going to bed have fun cryin zergs Oh look, someone with no major tournament wins is acting superior to a forum poster. Why don't you win some tournaments before you talk down to those on this forum? You have to earn your superiority first. it's ok grimjim, i pointed out to him that he's wrong. feedback & fungal are same range. i'll assume he'll conveniently be quiet now, and should start to learn how to use HT and feedback
Feedback - range 9
Fungal - range 9 with radius 2... so effectively 11 range.
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On September 09 2011 13:41 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:39 tuho12345 wrote:wooohooo fuck yes !!! No more destroying the entire mech and colossus armies with just a couple infestors. That's so damn imbalance and now It's awesome! Are you kidding? Now Zerg just gets utterly rolled.
Why am I kidding? Did you watch IdrA vs SeleCT where SeleCT went for mech with bunch of Thors and siege tanks. IdrA just NP all the thors and let them worked, killed all the tanks and killed each others with out losing a single unit. How fair was that?
How protoss supposed to beat infestors lings if they can't get Colossus, and when they got it, it just got NP. Infestors FG so stalkers and other units can't move or micro, and colossus with splash damage just kill their own brothers.
Really think about it dude. FG is more than enough to deal with anything.
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On September 09 2011 13:35 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:27 Itsmedudeman wrote:On September 09 2011 13:24 Belial88 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:01 Whitewing wrote:On September 09 2011 12:58 Treble557 wrote:On September 09 2011 12:56 Whitewing wrote:On September 09 2011 12:51 Belial88 wrote:
I swear to god, if Blizzard makes it so you can't NP massive units, I will switch to Terran. I just fucking hit #1 Master with Zerg too.
Because of this change, I will also be only playing on the PTR.
NP is the only counter Zerg has to archons until broodlords, which is impossible to get even against 3 base timing pushes. Mass roach is okay, but has it's own problems against immortals and doesn't cut it against archons forever.
And Zerg has no counter to fucking colossi, it was hard enough trying to make NP work. Corruptors just don't kill Colossi fast enough, they are weaker, just as slow, lower range, and more expensive than Vikings, yet Zerg ground units die much faster than marauders. Baneling rain is lol against stalkers or air play.
And then BC's and Carriers (as rare as they show up) are ridiculously hard to deal with without NP. And motherships are a huge pain too without NP.
I don't think NP is that great against mech, you're better off with mass muta (especially if siege tank count is high, which any decent mech will do, and mass roach is better against mass thor), since BL is a better investment in gas than infestors, but it's still obnoxious.
And in ZvZ is was necessary to NP broodlords, as an option to making Corruptors, instead of games being a stupid fucking mass spine wall to broodlord/roach on 3 base.
I'm not even kidding. I will switch to terran if this change goes through. Roaches and hydras both do very well vs. archons. You can neural the immortals. Zerg does have a counter to colossi: spam fungal the army while keeping your army at range and make brood lords. Broods do pretty damn well vs. units that don't shoot up like colossi last time I checked. Carriers get roflstomped by hydras (and you can fungal the interceptors, lawl). Mothership might be a decent point, but at the same time, with neural on the mothership, the ship does nothing at all in the matchup in protoss's favor. Making one was basically giving the zerg a vortex on your own army. Oh, and baneling drops are fantastic on stalker balls, very cost effective if you can get the baneling to hit more than 3 stalkers, and remember, you're ahead on resources anyway so you don't even need to be cost effective. Is this a joke post? None of that is true. You're saying you can't spam fungal the army while staying away from the protoss units that literally can't move? Are you saying you can't neural parasite immortals? Oh, are you saying colossi are good against brood lords? Oh, perhaps you think baneling drops aren't cost effective on stalker balls, but the math proves you wrong, search it. Oh, maybe you meant that zerg isn't ahead on resources normally? Your post is possibly the most idiotic thing that occurs on this forum: not reading and just denying everything flat out. You realize FG has to be chained, just a single FG is worthless. And Colossi outrage infestors, so infestors always die doing a 40 damage spell, and then there's blink sniping. There's also HT FB, and unless you clump them up all horribly or lead your army with them, getting a single FG off and losing 10 infestors to a 3 HT int he process, is not nearly worth it at all. Infestors are very versatile, but saying they should be removed just because of this is ridiculous. Marines and stalkers are also extremely versatile, and Zerg has no marine or stalker. What's more, is while infestors are awesome, they are just so hard countered by the much cheaper, much faster to get HT,which can be warped, counters what infestors generally come with, and you only need 2-3 to make an infestor army useless, whereas Zerg needs 10+ infestors for a sizeable, decent army. And baneling drops aren't good at all on stalker balls... any decent Protoss knows stalkers is the 'counter' to baneling rain. MC used FF to hold off ground armies and blink to deal with overlords in the GSL finals vs July on Xel Naga, and Liquid'Hero constantly shows on his stream how to own baneling rain with blink stalkers with amazing split micro (kind of like marine splitting but a shitton easier). A lot of Zergs also say Ultras are much better against Colossi than BL (idra, destiny, spanishiwa, etc), and Colossi are faster than BL, clean up broodlings, and blink and Vr can handle broodlords. 2 upgraded blink stalkers beat a single broodlord, or just 3 plain stalkers. Roaches and hydras are known to be horrible vs archons, broods dont come in time against even 3 base pushes, carriers actually own hydras. Everything you say is just so, so wrong, and it's obvious you don't play Zerg. I don't know where you think you got your information, but I'm a Master Zerg, and I'm also *not* trolling, so I have no idea what you are talking about. You also don't have to be so goddamn mean, if you have certain opinions that's fine, but you don't need to be mean about it. Chaining FGs is a lot easier than chaining anything else Roaches are horrible against archons? I don't even... what???? Carriers own hydras? Who the hell cares what carriers own? At a certain point, enough Zealots and Archons will demolish an army of Roaches and Speedlings, even if outnumbered. Roaches are not cost-efficient against Archons, even less supply-efficient, and if you try to stop a 6-gate Archon mix with roaches and speedlings, or hydras, you will not fair well. You need something else. Archons are a lot like colossi in that regard - they'll wreck Zerg on the ground if your "ball" gets big enough. But unlike colossi they aren't vulnerable to air attacks. This makes them a really hard unit for Zerg to deal with. NP was the most ideal option.
Wouldn't roach/infestor be great against zealot archon? Fungal growth holds the zealots in place while the roaches deal damage with their range. Once fungal runs out thier army should be pretty fragile and archons on thier own aren't gonna decimate a roach ball. I dunno i dont play zerg but this is the reason i never go zealot archon against them...
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This change is NOTHING LIKE the KA change, how can any logical person compare the two.
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Great.
- Return to corruptors, the biggest anti-micro unit in the game.
- Thor hellion still takes 0 skill to make yet now there is no ticking clock for terran. Max and a move. Fucking ridiculous.
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On September 09 2011 13:44 Lomak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:41 Fig wrote:On September 09 2011 13:38 Lomak wrote:On September 09 2011 13:36 NineteenSC2 wrote:
Lol, this is how toss felt when khaydarian amulet was removed. Anyway, the infestor was just too good of a unit. Good against sentries, void rays, carriers, mothership, zealots, stalkers, pheonixes, probes. Good for defending, as well as attacking, as well as harrassing. In a strategy game this is defined as overpowered.
Don't worry guys, the ghost is next. That is completely different. "Storm no longer does damage to light units" makes about as much sense as "Neural doesn't work on massive" No the KA nerf basically made HTs read "Storm no longer does damage for the first 30 seconds" And I also hope the ghost is next as well. The point is, the KA nerf didn't change the functionality of the storm spell WHATSOEVER, it's still the same spell. Neural parasite will NOT be the same spell if the change goes through.
I agree with you. I said before that this change makes it a very niche spell, and I think it would be cool if infestors now started with fungal to make up for it.
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United States7483 Posts
On September 09 2011 13:44 cnc wrote:
Ultras counter Thors hard, and they just got buffed.
Actually, thors counter ultralisks. You got it backwards >_>.
To be fair you cuddly zerg players, I would have much prefered an infested terran nerf than a neural parasite nerf, but at least it won't counter everything now by itself.
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On September 09 2011 13:44 Nomad123 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:43 Grimjim wrote:On September 09 2011 13:37 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:33 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:29 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:27 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:22 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:19 Nomad123 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:13 desrow wrote:On September 09 2011 13:11 Nomad123 wrote:
so instead of encouraging toss/terran to use HT/ghost and learn to feedback/EMP the infestors, they make the neural useless??
U can't feedback when ur fungal'd You can't feedback when theres a line of 6-10 broodlords shooting at ur army feedback is an ez answer but a bitch to use spread out your HT, toss has got into the habit of just making one giant ball. when you're at the part where opponent has 6-10 broodlords, you obviously have a lot of high tier units yourself. you will be able to spread out your ball to at least two and still be cost effective. then your HT spread out between the two balls and cast feedbacks. terrans can just spread out ghosts, cloak & EMP. zergs learned the hard way to spread out their infestors too against good HT users. why can't toss learn to use HT properly? zvt is easier than zvp when it comes to infestors because in zvt zerg cant make 30 infestor, emp does aoe burn in zvp feedback can be casted 4 times by 1 templar and thats if u dont get fungal owned by broodlords before that, you guys are all QQing way too hard, the game won't be broken ull still need 10 infestors ish to have a decent battle but ull need goo positioning and kiting with your corruptor to not die people don't understand that removing massive is good. now instead of protoss having to fight 2 set of tier 3 unit (our collosus archons) and the zerg's tier 3 unit, we just have to fight the zergs unit you said it yourself, 1 HT can feedback 4 times. that means it can feedback 4 infestors if it gets in range. if you have fast hands, you can feedback 2-3 infestors before opponent fungals you. HT and fungal are same range. spread out your HT, don't just make one giant ball and push. you keep adding "broodlord" in your example, so the problem to you is the broodlord then, not the infestors. you can feedback 4times if your templar has 200 energy fungal has slightly better range just like emp has slightly longer range than feedback blaming toss users on feedback for the nerf is ridiculous oh one more fact our templar are retardly slow like baby steps and ur infestors actually have a decent movement speed both templars & infestors wait to regenerate energy. that part is fair. if you have 200 energy templars, then infestors will have high energy as well. now you remove broodlord from your argument. thank you. you obviously were too short sighted with your examples. templars are ridiculously slow for their own good. infestor movement speed was reduced also last patch, for their own good. this helps players not have their spellcasters die cause they move so fast and go in front of battle. reality is, if opponent can fungal you, you can feedback them as well. movement speed is not a factor in your argument. I don't know why I'm spending so much time arguing with someone with such a low post count but FUNGAL has LONGER range than FEEDBACK because the circle thingy GOES further THAN the range of feedback going to bed have fun cryin zergs Oh look, someone with no major tournament wins is acting superior to a forum poster. Why don't you win some tournaments before you talk down to those on this forum? You have to earn your superiority first. it's ok grimjim, i pointed out to him that he's wrong. feedback & fungal are same range. i'll assume he'll conveniently be quiet now, and should start to learn how to use HT and feedback
dood there's something wrong with you YES on paper they have the same range BUT the "AOE" of fungal hits further than feedback dont make me go in game and use paint WTF are u that dumb ?
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On September 09 2011 13:46 aquanda wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:36 NineteenSC2 wrote:
Lol, this is how toss felt when khaydarian amulet was removed. Anyway, the infestor was just too good of a unit. Good against sentries, void rays, carriers, mothership, zealots, stalkers, pheonixes, archons, collosi, dts, observers, and probes. Good for defending, as well as attacking, as well as harrassing. In a strategy game when there's a unit that's good at everything the correct phrase to drescribe it is: overpowered
p.s. left the high templar out cause that's debatable.
Don't worry guys, the ghost is next. I would agree completely if we had other units that could handle the role the infestor has been filling. Corruptors and Hydras (our only other AA) are terrible units with a high cost. If a buff to either of those doesn't happen I don't see Zerg doing well in the future.
To be honest fungal is still extremely effective when paired up with mass lings and baneling drops.
The spell does damage and holds you in place.
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Thors are already really good vs Zerg's "anti-armored" unit (the Ultra)... I hate this change. It's very hard to get enough neurals to make a difference, but herp derp mass thor can be very powerful now with siege tanks behind them. I don't see why neural is in the game anymore.
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The NP nerf will make all of the highly rare flying units slightly more viable. Carriers, Motherships and Battle-Cruisers all just got a small buff.
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United States7483 Posts
On September 09 2011 13:47 Sajaki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:35 Leporello wrote:On September 09 2011 13:27 Itsmedudeman wrote:On September 09 2011 13:24 Belial88 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:01 Whitewing wrote:On September 09 2011 12:58 Treble557 wrote:On September 09 2011 12:56 Whitewing wrote:On September 09 2011 12:51 Belial88 wrote:
I swear to god, if Blizzard makes it so you can't NP massive units, I will switch to Terran. I just fucking hit #1 Master with Zerg too.
Because of this change, I will also be only playing on the PTR.
NP is the only counter Zerg has to archons until broodlords, which is impossible to get even against 3 base timing pushes. Mass roach is okay, but has it's own problems against immortals and doesn't cut it against archons forever.
And Zerg has no counter to fucking colossi, it was hard enough trying to make NP work. Corruptors just don't kill Colossi fast enough, they are weaker, just as slow, lower range, and more expensive than Vikings, yet Zerg ground units die much faster than marauders. Baneling rain is lol against stalkers or air play.
And then BC's and Carriers (as rare as they show up) are ridiculously hard to deal with without NP. And motherships are a huge pain too without NP.
I don't think NP is that great against mech, you're better off with mass muta (especially if siege tank count is high, which any decent mech will do, and mass roach is better against mass thor), since BL is a better investment in gas than infestors, but it's still obnoxious.
And in ZvZ is was necessary to NP broodlords, as an option to making Corruptors, instead of games being a stupid fucking mass spine wall to broodlord/roach on 3 base.
I'm not even kidding. I will switch to terran if this change goes through. Roaches and hydras both do very well vs. archons. You can neural the immortals. Zerg does have a counter to colossi: spam fungal the army while keeping your army at range and make brood lords. Broods do pretty damn well vs. units that don't shoot up like colossi last time I checked. Carriers get roflstomped by hydras (and you can fungal the interceptors, lawl). Mothership might be a decent point, but at the same time, with neural on the mothership, the ship does nothing at all in the matchup in protoss's favor. Making one was basically giving the zerg a vortex on your own army. Oh, and baneling drops are fantastic on stalker balls, very cost effective if you can get the baneling to hit more than 3 stalkers, and remember, you're ahead on resources anyway so you don't even need to be cost effective. Is this a joke post? None of that is true. You're saying you can't spam fungal the army while staying away from the protoss units that literally can't move? Are you saying you can't neural parasite immortals? Oh, are you saying colossi are good against brood lords? Oh, perhaps you think baneling drops aren't cost effective on stalker balls, but the math proves you wrong, search it. Oh, maybe you meant that zerg isn't ahead on resources normally? Your post is possibly the most idiotic thing that occurs on this forum: not reading and just denying everything flat out. You realize FG has to be chained, just a single FG is worthless. And Colossi outrage infestors, so infestors always die doing a 40 damage spell, and then there's blink sniping. There's also HT FB, and unless you clump them up all horribly or lead your army with them, getting a single FG off and losing 10 infestors to a 3 HT int he process, is not nearly worth it at all. Infestors are very versatile, but saying they should be removed just because of this is ridiculous. Marines and stalkers are also extremely versatile, and Zerg has no marine or stalker. What's more, is while infestors are awesome, they are just so hard countered by the much cheaper, much faster to get HT,which can be warped, counters what infestors generally come with, and you only need 2-3 to make an infestor army useless, whereas Zerg needs 10+ infestors for a sizeable, decent army. And baneling drops aren't good at all on stalker balls... any decent Protoss knows stalkers is the 'counter' to baneling rain. MC used FF to hold off ground armies and blink to deal with overlords in the GSL finals vs July on Xel Naga, and Liquid'Hero constantly shows on his stream how to own baneling rain with blink stalkers with amazing split micro (kind of like marine splitting but a shitton easier). A lot of Zergs also say Ultras are much better against Colossi than BL (idra, destiny, spanishiwa, etc), and Colossi are faster than BL, clean up broodlings, and blink and Vr can handle broodlords. 2 upgraded blink stalkers beat a single broodlord, or just 3 plain stalkers. Roaches and hydras are known to be horrible vs archons, broods dont come in time against even 3 base pushes, carriers actually own hydras. Everything you say is just so, so wrong, and it's obvious you don't play Zerg. I don't know where you think you got your information, but I'm a Master Zerg, and I'm also *not* trolling, so I have no idea what you are talking about. You also don't have to be so goddamn mean, if you have certain opinions that's fine, but you don't need to be mean about it. Chaining FGs is a lot easier than chaining anything else Roaches are horrible against archons? I don't even... what???? Carriers own hydras? Who the hell cares what carriers own? At a certain point, enough Zealots and Archons will demolish an army of Roaches and Speedlings, even if outnumbered. Roaches are not cost-efficient against Archons, even less supply-efficient, and if you try to stop a 6-gate Archon mix with roaches and speedlings, or hydras, you will not fair well. You need something else. Archons are a lot like colossi in that regard - they'll wreck Zerg on the ground if your "ball" gets big enough. But unlike colossi they aren't vulnerable to air attacks. This makes them a really hard unit for Zerg to deal with. NP was the most ideal option. Wouldn't roach/infestor be great against zealot archon? Fungal growth holds the zealots in place while the roaches deal damage with their range. Once fungal runs out thier army should be pretty fragile and archons on thier own aren't gonna decimate a roach ball. I dunno i dont play zerg but this is the reason i never go zealot archon against them...
You are correct, roach/infester does great vs. zealot/archon. He was spouting nonsense.
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If this change goes through, I think Idra will be switching to Terran like in BroodWar ^^
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Everyone needs to be grateful the change isn't: Nerual removed from the game
(flux vanes and kydarian) 
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On September 09 2011 13:36 Tektos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:31 McGuire72 wrote:On September 09 2011 13:27 Mikelius wrote:On September 09 2011 13:26 Dalguno wrote:
So, good units to NP:
Toss:
-HT
-Sentries (maybe)
-Immortals
-Voids
Terran:
-Siege tanks
-Ghosts
What else? Banshees, Ravens, Medivacs? Researching NP... to control.. a freaking sentry?! Really? You're in the middle of a massive battle and you're going to use all your APM pinpointing the high-energy sentry in a ball and laying down 4 FFs that a collosus is going to walk over and destroy anyway? Come on. Or a Ghost? Why? To EMP the terran army? This is ridiculous. NP is going to be useless without the ability to target massive units. You're so incredibly biased. NP Ghost -> EMP other ghosts. Oh hey now your infestors have free reign to fungal everything without getting EMPed. Or, snipe any of their bio units if you desire. Sentry is less viable but not completely useless. A single guardian shield would be really really good considering how many stalkers protoss compositions usually contain. Not to mention because it is their unit under your control, it wont get auto-targetted and hence you have guardian shield for the entire engagement.
Yes, I'm going to waste all my infestor energy and APM to NP a ghost that's probably cloaked anyway, and then EMP all the other ghosts! Success, siege tanks just killed all my infestors and there are hellions in my mineral lines. Like really, how is that payoff worth the price of infesors, plus NP, plus all your APM in the middle of a battle?
And to the guy who keeps saying "just make BLs to counter mech lol".... mech pushes... come... way.... before BLs. Zerg can't freaking rush BLs like Terran can rush tanks or thors. We have no wall. We have no scouting outside of OLs. We're blind and constantly susceptible to hellion run-bys, which WILL BE OCCURING if the terran is going mech. I can't get 12 minute BLs up to counter thors. It's impossible.
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On September 09 2011 13:46 BigKahunaBurger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 13:45 nV wrote:
People are acting as if its the end of the world for every Zerg player. Sure it's a big change, but a change is needed. How can it be completely acceptable to win a game by just massing 1 unit. This change is needed in PvZ due to the fact that infestors are just too good. They have 3 spells that are really good, and know they are just going to nerf 1 of the spells to help the match up. Just by massing one unit? Uhh... mass blink stalker? The problem is that they're nerfing the wrong spell.
Just by massing blink stalker wont win you the game. Ling infestor rapes blink stalker and blink is getting a nerf anyway so that leaves zerg players with more time to prepare for it.
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EPT
