Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55
On August 26 2011 22:20 cptBlueBlitz wrote: Zealots charge has got a change which cancel the charge buff if the zealot actually get a new order after this buff. The reason of that is that the charge buff wont stop until the zealot catch the unit he wants to attack. With some micro we were then able to make super long charge. I do not agree with Blizzard fix. Even if this fix has to happen right now i would prefer a simple 2 sec buff instead of removing the buff from happening when a new order happen. Simply because spamming A-Click will remove the charge, which is kinda stupid since you need to give orders to your zealots when the opponent's army is moving.
Here is a video explaing showing the "bug" or whatever it is called.
I've known about this bug since the beta. I have always wondered why people didn't utilize it more often. I wasn't going to point it out though :p
not practical in a real game. you wont have the time to do that. you'd much rather spend your apm elsewhere and a move your chargelots.
microing 1 zealot when you both have 100+++ armies is beyond insignificant
I don't mind the blue flame nerf, really...but I'm scared about the barracks build time increase. Seems a cannon rush vs. Terran just became a lot more viable.
On August 26 2011 20:33 bokeevboke wrote: this patch is great, but there are things in SC2 that I can't still understand:
Tank range Sieged tank has ridiculous range of 13. Why do they need so much? How is it justified? I understand that tank is terran's primary AOE damager. But frankly they are pretty bad at dealing AoE damage. I mean if zerg has enough army to live through 13 range, then terran is doomed. 13 Range only good for abusive strategies and allins. It would be better if range was around 9 and splash damage was bigger. That way we could fix terran late game and make less abusive strategies in early game. Range of viking is ok, since they are slow, fragile and they're only way to fight colossi/broodlords.
PDD, Autoturret lifetime It feels that these things last forever. There is even upgrade to prolong their life. Why? What is the purpose to last that long? I don't understand it. Is it for defense?? These things are pretty bad at defending. Or is it for harassing? they're pretty bad at harassing too, low dps and enemy can simply run away. Infested terrans are much better, they do more damage, only 25 energy, and can walk around. It would be better if these spells had more power in a short period of time.
Force fields Forcefields are entire reason why protoss gateway units suck. Why FFs last so long? I believe the designer is same person who invented destructible rocks. I mean its ok to micro FF and do cutsy stuff but. This spell is "do or die". Single mistake from either side, and he is dead, will lose everything inevitably. Solution: Make the spell last shorter, that way enemy has more options and can save some stuff, at the same time buff gateway units.
Wrong, wrong and wrong.
Imagine trying to hold a ramp if force field only lasted 5 seconds lol, it gives you exactly enough time to warp in another sentry to try and save your ass from an unexpected rush.
It should last 5 seconds, but 20 seconds in a power field.
This way the ability is much more defensive than offensive. Also, if gateway units are buffed, then holding a ramp might not be needed anymore. The problem is going to be in terran armies kiting and making it impossible to get hits in for the protoss though... If this is going to happen charge needs to come faster, zealots need to be faster, and perhaps even reavers are needed.
PvP would be back to only 4 gating tho.
yeah 5 seconds would make the sentry useless, and PvZ would be a joke, Z would run all over toss. and PvP would be pure 4gate
We are talking about buffing gateway units a lot here if forcefields outside of power fields are changed to last 10 or 5 seconds.
It's just sad how important force fields are. You can't win without them, and if you use them perfectly you gain a huge advantage, so your other units have to be really weak to compromise for that.
well, if anything they need a buff. protoss are getting dominated at pro level, ZvP and TvP are the 2 match up's with the highest win percents for the last month
maybe keep FF the same and buff stalkers?
His main point is that Blizzard has to balance around the sentry. Since sentry stacks so well in a ball, it forces Blizzard to balance around that. That in effect forces the protoss to stay in one ball, since protoss units aren't balanced(as in are to weak) split up. In the end, forcefield is the reason why protoss for the most part relies on deathballs and why for their cost, most their units are relatively cost inefficient.
In essense, sentry/ff is the biggest reason why protoss is so predictable and boring. Change forcefield and the whole protoss dynamic changes to the better, where the rest of the units don't rely on ffs to be cost effective/good.
On August 26 2011 20:33 bokeevboke wrote: this patch is great, but there are things in SC2 that I can't still understand:
Tank range Sieged tank has ridiculous range of 13. Why do they need so much? How is it justified? I understand that tank is terran's primary AOE damager. But frankly they are pretty bad at dealing AoE damage. I mean if zerg has enough army to live through 13 range, then terran is doomed. 13 Range only good for abusive strategies and allins. It would be better if range was around 9 and splash damage was bigger. That way we could fix terran late game and make less abusive strategies in early game. Range of viking is ok, since they are slow, fragile and they're only way to fight colossi/broodlords.
PDD, Autoturret lifetime It feels that these things last forever. There is even upgrade to prolong their life. Why? What is the purpose to last that long? I don't understand it. Is it for defense?? These things are pretty bad at defending. Or is it for harassing? they're pretty bad at harassing too, low dps and enemy can simply run away. Infested terrans are much better, they do more damage, only 25 energy, and can walk around. It would be better if these spells had more power in a short period of time.
Force fields Forcefields are entire reason why protoss gateway units suck. Why FFs last so long? I believe the designer is same person who invented destructible rocks. I mean its ok to micro FF and do cutsy stuff but. This spell is "do or die". Single mistake from either side, and he is dead, will lose everything inevitably. Solution: Make the spell last shorter, that way enemy has more options and can save some stuff, at the same time buff gateway units.
Wrong, wrong and wrong.
Imagine trying to hold a ramp if force field only lasted 5 seconds lol, it gives you exactly enough time to warp in another sentry to try and save your ass from an unexpected rush.
It should last 5 seconds, but 20 seconds in a power field.
This way the ability is much more defensive than offensive. Also, if gateway units are buffed, then holding a ramp might not be needed anymore. The problem is going to be in terran armies kiting and making it impossible to get hits in for the protoss though... If this is going to happen charge needs to come faster, zealots need to be faster, and perhaps even reavers are needed.
PvP would be back to only 4 gating tho.
yeah 5 seconds would make the sentry useless, and PvZ would be a joke, Z would run all over toss. and PvP would be pure 4gate
We are talking about buffing gateway units a lot here if forcefields outside of power fields are changed to last 10 or 5 seconds.
It's just sad how important force fields are. You can't win without them, and if you use them perfectly you gain a huge advantage, so your other units have to be really weak to compromise for that.
well, if anything they need a buff. protoss are getting dominated at pro level, ZvP and TvP are the 2 match up's with the highest win percents for the last month
maybe keep FF the same and buff stalkers?
His main point is that Blizzard has to balance around the sentry. Since sentry stacks so well in a ball, it forces Blizzard to balance around that. That in effect forces the protoss to stay in one ball, since protoss units aren't balanced(as in are to weak) split up. In the end, forcefield is the reason why protoss for the most part relies on deathballs and why for their cost, most their units are relatively cost inefficient.
In essense, sentry/ff is the biggest reason why protoss is so predictable and boring. Change forcefield and the whole protoss dynamic changes to the better, where the rest of the units don't rely on ffs to be cost effective/good.
I dont necessarily agree but then again I am only in diamond league so maybe immortal HT in PvZ or chargelot archon in PvT through mid game into late game compositions is actually bad.
The hellion nerf is bad but you can still harass with hellions, the upgrade just isn't worth it as often.
Not sure how big a deal 36 to 30 damage for infestors is. Still do 40 vs. armored. I suppose lings have more than like 1 hp and it's a little harder to kill mutas just with fg but it still does the same thing
5 extra seconds for rax seems like it will affect a lot of timings
"Fixed an issue where Drone attacks could be more easily dodged than SCV or Probes."
On August 26 2011 20:33 bokeevboke wrote: this patch is great, but there are things in SC2 that I can't still understand:
Tank range Sieged tank has ridiculous range of 13. Why do they need so much? How is it justified? I understand that tank is terran's primary AOE damager. But frankly they are pretty bad at dealing AoE damage. I mean if zerg has enough army to live through 13 range, then terran is doomed. 13 Range only good for abusive strategies and allins. It would be better if range was around 9 and splash damage was bigger. That way we could fix terran late game and make less abusive strategies in early game. Range of viking is ok, since they are slow, fragile and they're only way to fight colossi/broodlords.
PDD, Autoturret lifetime It feels that these things last forever. There is even upgrade to prolong their life. Why? What is the purpose to last that long? I don't understand it. Is it for defense?? These things are pretty bad at defending. Or is it for harassing? they're pretty bad at harassing too, low dps and enemy can simply run away. Infested terrans are much better, they do more damage, only 25 energy, and can walk around. It would be better if these spells had more power in a short period of time.
Force fields Forcefields are entire reason why protoss gateway units suck. Why FFs last so long? I believe the designer is same person who invented destructible rocks. I mean its ok to micro FF and do cutsy stuff but. This spell is "do or die". Single mistake from either side, and he is dead, will lose everything inevitably. Solution: Make the spell last shorter, that way enemy has more options and can save some stuff, at the same time buff gateway units.
Wrong, wrong and wrong.
Imagine trying to hold a ramp if force field only lasted 5 seconds lol, it gives you exactly enough time to warp in another sentry to try and save your ass from an unexpected rush.
It should last 5 seconds, but 20 seconds in a power field.
This way the ability is much more defensive than offensive. Also, if gateway units are buffed, then holding a ramp might not be needed anymore. The problem is going to be in terran armies kiting and making it impossible to get hits in for the protoss though... If this is going to happen charge needs to come faster, zealots need to be faster, and perhaps even reavers are needed.
PvP would be back to only 4 gating tho.
yeah 5 seconds would make the sentry useless, and PvZ would be a joke, Z would run all over toss. and PvP would be pure 4gate
We are talking about buffing gateway units a lot here if forcefields outside of power fields are changed to last 10 or 5 seconds.
It's just sad how important force fields are. You can't win without them, and if you use them perfectly you gain a huge advantage, so your other units have to be really weak to compromise for that.
well, if anything they need a buff. protoss are getting dominated at pro level, ZvP and TvP are the 2 match up's with the highest win percents for the last month
maybe keep FF the same and buff stalkers?
His main point is that Blizzard has to balance around the sentry. Since sentry stacks so well in a ball, it forces Blizzard to balance around that. That in effect forces the protoss to stay in one ball, since protoss units aren't balanced(as in are to weak) split up. In the end, forcefield is the reason why protoss for the most part relies on deathballs and why for their cost, most their units are relatively cost inefficient.
In essense, sentry/ff is the biggest reason why protoss is so predictable and boring. Change forcefield and the whole protoss dynamic changes to the better, where the rest of the units don't rely on ffs to be cost effective/good.
I dont necessarily agree but then again I am only in diamond league so maybe immortal HT in PvZ or chargelot archon in PvT through mid game into late game compositions is actually bad.
I'm talking about in small groups, you are again speaking about deathballs, which all the toss units are balanced around.
And yer I'd most certainly say PvT, chargelot archon is quite bad if the terran makes ghosts. I'd atleast consider it as a pretty 'figured out' combo, though if you went heavy tech lab raxes at start it can still be annoying.
On August 26 2011 22:47 Lockindal wrote: Rax build time increase is pretty pesky. 6 pool vs terran is now.... lol
its funny how terran didnt have to worry about any early game pressure or proxys, and now u are QQing like babys about it, LEARN to SCOUT... in this patch Terran will have a little of his own medicine.
On August 26 2011 20:33 bokeevboke wrote: this patch is great, but there are things in SC2 that I can't still understand:
Tank range Sieged tank has ridiculous range of 13. Why do they need so much? How is it justified? I understand that tank is terran's primary AOE damager. But frankly they are pretty bad at dealing AoE damage. I mean if zerg has enough army to live through 13 range, then terran is doomed. 13 Range only good for abusive strategies and allins. It would be better if range was around 9 and splash damage was bigger. That way we could fix terran late game and make less abusive strategies in early game. Range of viking is ok, since they are slow, fragile and they're only way to fight colossi/broodlords.
PDD, Autoturret lifetime It feels that these things last forever. There is even upgrade to prolong their life. Why? What is the purpose to last that long? I don't understand it. Is it for defense?? These things are pretty bad at defending. Or is it for harassing? they're pretty bad at harassing too, low dps and enemy can simply run away. Infested terrans are much better, they do more damage, only 25 energy, and can walk around. It would be better if these spells had more power in a short period of time.
Force fields Forcefields are entire reason why protoss gateway units suck. Why FFs last so long? I believe the designer is same person who invented destructible rocks. I mean its ok to micro FF and do cutsy stuff but. This spell is "do or die". Single mistake from either side, and he is dead, will lose everything inevitably. Solution: Make the spell last shorter, that way enemy has more options and can save some stuff, at the same time buff gateway units.
Wrong, wrong and wrong.
Imagine trying to hold a ramp if force field only lasted 5 seconds lol, it gives you exactly enough time to warp in another sentry to try and save your ass from an unexpected rush.
It should last 5 seconds, but 20 seconds in a power field.
This way the ability is much more defensive than offensive. Also, if gateway units are buffed, then holding a ramp might not be needed anymore. The problem is going to be in terran armies kiting and making it impossible to get hits in for the protoss though... If this is going to happen charge needs to come faster, zealots need to be faster, and perhaps even reavers are needed.
PvP would be back to only 4 gating tho.
yeah 5 seconds would make the sentry useless, and PvZ would be a joke, Z would run all over toss. and PvP would be pure 4gate
We are talking about buffing gateway units a lot here if forcefields outside of power fields are changed to last 10 or 5 seconds.
It's just sad how important force fields are. You can't win without them, and if you use them perfectly you gain a huge advantage, so your other units have to be really weak to compromise for that.
well, if anything they need a buff. protoss are getting dominated at pro level, ZvP and TvP are the 2 match up's with the highest win percents for the last month
maybe keep FF the same and buff stalkers?
His main point is that Blizzard has to balance around the sentry. Since sentry stacks so well in a ball, it forces Blizzard to balance around that. That in effect forces the protoss to stay in one ball, since protoss units aren't balanced(as in are to weak) split up. In the end, forcefield is the reason why protoss for the most part relies on deathballs and why for their cost, most their units are relatively cost inefficient.
In essense, sentry/ff is the biggest reason why protoss is so predictable and boring. Change forcefield and the whole protoss dynamic changes to the better, where the rest of the units don't rely on ffs to be cost effective/good.
Not, the biggest part is the colossus. every ball centered around ht splash is weaker in damage output than a colossus ball. If you weaken the colossus, you can buff gateway units for instance a bit, so storm becomes a real option. Currently in PvZ everything HT based is significantly weaker than colossus based armies.
On August 26 2011 22:47 Lockindal wrote: Rax build time increase is pretty pesky. 6 pool vs terran is now.... lol
its funny how terran didnt have to worry about any early game pressure or proxys, and now u are QQing like babys about it, LEARN to SCOUT... in this patch Terran will have a little of his own medicine.
Yep defo a L2P issue when you get 6pooled on a 4player map and scout them last, Npnp.
Everything seems reasonable except for the barracks time increase. Pretty stupid idea there. Hopefully they realize how dumb it is and don't let it get past PTR.
On August 26 2011 20:33 bokeevboke wrote: this patch is great, but there are things in SC2 that I can't still understand:
Tank range Sieged tank has ridiculous range of 13. Why do they need so much? How is it justified? I understand that tank is terran's primary AOE damager. But frankly they are pretty bad at dealing AoE damage. I mean if zerg has enough army to live through 13 range, then terran is doomed. 13 Range only good for abusive strategies and allins. It would be better if range was around 9 and splash damage was bigger. That way we could fix terran late game and make less abusive strategies in early game. Range of viking is ok, since they are slow, fragile and they're only way to fight colossi/broodlords.
PDD, Autoturret lifetime It feels that these things last forever. There is even upgrade to prolong their life. Why? What is the purpose to last that long? I don't understand it. Is it for defense?? These things are pretty bad at defending. Or is it for harassing? they're pretty bad at harassing too, low dps and enemy can simply run away. Infested terrans are much better, they do more damage, only 25 energy, and can walk around. It would be better if these spells had more power in a short period of time.
Force fields Forcefields are entire reason why protoss gateway units suck. Why FFs last so long? I believe the designer is same person who invented destructible rocks. I mean its ok to micro FF and do cutsy stuff but. This spell is "do or die". Single mistake from either side, and he is dead, will lose everything inevitably. Solution: Make the spell last shorter, that way enemy has more options and can save some stuff, at the same time buff gateway units.
Wrong, wrong and wrong.
Imagine trying to hold a ramp if force field only lasted 5 seconds lol, it gives you exactly enough time to warp in another sentry to try and save your ass from an unexpected rush.
It should last 5 seconds, but 20 seconds in a power field.
This way the ability is much more defensive than offensive. Also, if gateway units are buffed, then holding a ramp might not be needed anymore. The problem is going to be in terran armies kiting and making it impossible to get hits in for the protoss though... If this is going to happen charge needs to come faster, zealots need to be faster, and perhaps even reavers are needed.
PvP would be back to only 4 gating tho.
yeah 5 seconds would make the sentry useless, and PvZ would be a joke, Z would run all over toss. and PvP would be pure 4gate
We are talking about buffing gateway units a lot here if forcefields outside of power fields are changed to last 10 or 5 seconds.
It's just sad how important force fields are. You can't win without them, and if you use them perfectly you gain a huge advantage, so your other units have to be really weak to compromise for that.
well, if anything they need a buff. protoss are getting dominated at pro level, ZvP and TvP are the 2 match up's with the highest win percents for the last month
maybe keep FF the same and buff stalkers?
His main point is that Blizzard has to balance around the sentry. Since sentry stacks so well in a ball, it forces Blizzard to balance around that. That in effect forces the protoss to stay in one ball, since protoss units aren't balanced(as in are to weak) split up. In the end, forcefield is the reason why protoss for the most part relies on deathballs and why for their cost, most their units are relatively cost inefficient.
In essense, sentry/ff is the biggest reason why protoss is so predictable and boring. Change forcefield and the whole protoss dynamic changes to the better, where the rest of the units don't rely on ffs to be cost effective/good.
Not, the biggest part is the colossus. every ball centered around ht splash is weaker in damage output than a colossus ball. If you weaken the colossus, you can buff gateway units for instance a bit, so storm becomes a real option. Currently in PvZ everything HT based is significantly weaker than colossus based armies.
Actually it's both.
Early/midgame: balanced around sentry and force field. mid/lategame: balance around sentry + colossus.
We all know how this makes protoss units weak in small numbers and only makes them "strong" in deathballs because in that way sentry/colossus has a lot more effect.
Also, the thing about colossus, it's designed as a disposable boost. They MELT to vikings and corruptors within seconds, but when they're alive they deal a lot of damage, because of this protoss relies on colossus pushes so much.
Sentry and colossus are just bad game design, nothing more and nothing less than that. Without them it would all look a lot better, things could be balanced to not rely on those two units for example.
On August 26 2011 20:33 bokeevboke wrote: this patch is great, but there are things in SC2 that I can't still understand:
Tank range Sieged tank has ridiculous range of 13. Why do they need so much? How is it justified? I understand that tank is terran's primary AOE damager. But frankly they are pretty bad at dealing AoE damage. I mean if zerg has enough army to live through 13 range, then terran is doomed. 13 Range only good for abusive strategies and allins. It would be better if range was around 9 and splash damage was bigger. That way we could fix terran late game and make less abusive strategies in early game. Range of viking is ok, since they are slow, fragile and they're only way to fight colossi/broodlords.
PDD, Autoturret lifetime It feels that these things last forever. There is even upgrade to prolong their life. Why? What is the purpose to last that long? I don't understand it. Is it for defense?? These things are pretty bad at defending. Or is it for harassing? they're pretty bad at harassing too, low dps and enemy can simply run away. Infested terrans are much better, they do more damage, only 25 energy, and can walk around. It would be better if these spells had more power in a short period of time.
Force fields Forcefields are entire reason why protoss gateway units suck. Why FFs last so long? I believe the designer is same person who invented destructible rocks. I mean its ok to micro FF and do cutsy stuff but. This spell is "do or die". Single mistake from either side, and he is dead, will lose everything inevitably. Solution: Make the spell last shorter, that way enemy has more options and can save some stuff, at the same time buff gateway units.
Wrong, wrong and wrong.
Imagine trying to hold a ramp if force field only lasted 5 seconds lol, it gives you exactly enough time to warp in another sentry to try and save your ass from an unexpected rush.
It should last 5 seconds, but 20 seconds in a power field.
This way the ability is much more defensive than offensive. Also, if gateway units are buffed, then holding a ramp might not be needed anymore. The problem is going to be in terran armies kiting and making it impossible to get hits in for the protoss though... If this is going to happen charge needs to come faster, zealots need to be faster, and perhaps even reavers are needed.
PvP would be back to only 4 gating tho.
yeah 5 seconds would make the sentry useless, and PvZ would be a joke, Z would run all over toss. and PvP would be pure 4gate
We are talking about buffing gateway units a lot here if forcefields outside of power fields are changed to last 10 or 5 seconds.
It's just sad how important force fields are. You can't win without them, and if you use them perfectly you gain a huge advantage, so your other units have to be really weak to compromise for that.
well, if anything they need a buff. protoss are getting dominated at pro level, ZvP and TvP are the 2 match up's with the highest win percents for the last month
maybe keep FF the same and buff stalkers?
His main point is that Blizzard has to balance around the sentry. Since sentry stacks so well in a ball, it forces Blizzard to balance around that. That in effect forces the protoss to stay in one ball, since protoss units aren't balanced(as in are to weak) split up. In the end, forcefield is the reason why protoss for the most part relies on deathballs and why for their cost, most their units are relatively cost inefficient.
In essense, sentry/ff is the biggest reason why protoss is so predictable and boring. Change forcefield and the whole protoss dynamic changes to the better, where the rest of the units don't rely on ffs to be cost effective/good.
I dont necessarily agree but then again I am only in diamond league so maybe immortal HT in PvZ or chargelot archon in PvT through mid game into late game compositions is actually bad.
I'm talking about in small groups, you are again speaking about deathballs, which all the toss units are balanced around.
And yer I'd most certainly say PvT, chargelot archon is quite bad if the terran makes ghosts. I'd atleast consider it as a pretty 'figured out' combo, though if you went heavy tech lab raxes at start it can still be annoying.
Its not really a death ball in the sense that the whole army doesnt need to be together. Theres a core but you can always have small units of zealots attacking somewhere else or a couple DTs. And in the end it doesnt rely on sentries which was the main point of my statement.
On August 26 2011 22:47 Lockindal wrote: Rax build time increase is pretty pesky. 6 pool vs terran is now.... lol
its funny how terran didnt have to worry about any early game pressure or proxys, and now u are QQing like babys about it, LEARN to SCOUT... in this patch Terran will have a little of his own medicine.
Yep defo a L2P issue when you get 6pooled on a 4player map and scout them last, Npnp.
-_-
Thats how protoss is right now lol, ur almost forced to send a second scout if you dont scout them first.
On August 26 2011 23:02 brembo wrote: has somebody found any non listed changes?
They buffed assimilator placement, and I'm sure all gas structures. Before you had to move your cursor right over the geyser before it locked to the center, but now anywhere within 3 squares of the geyser and it locks to the center of the geyser. That's all I've noticed so far. Feels really weird but I guess it doesn't really matter.
On August 26 2011 22:47 Lockindal wrote: Rax build time increase is pretty pesky. 6 pool vs terran is now.... lol
its funny how terran didnt have to worry about any early game pressure or proxys, and now u are QQing like babys about it, LEARN to SCOUT... in this patch Terran will have a little of his own medicine.
Yep defo a L2P issue when you get 6pooled on a 4player map and scout them last, Npnp.
-_-
Scout your own base after you build your depot to see if his overlord is there, and if not, then you can eliminate one spawn already. And yes, this is already what protoss has to do and if they neglect it, then they die to six pool. Less QQ more Pew Pew.
After the Raven buff, turtling and building up raven+ghost+mech is going to be extremely imbalanced, ghost mech is already extremely imba in my opinion but if this goes through with Ravens being able to hit a hell of a lot of Zerg units when off creep and also infestors being worse I doubt that this will last more than a month even with Blizzards lack of patching to fix late game imbalance.
EPT
