Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55
On August 26 2011 20:54 CarlaBruni wrote: they need to nerf hellion even more tbh the units is still ridiculously overpowered how much cost toss aoe / harass units that gives map control and can instant win games anytimes when bw progamer will switch to sc2 they re going to laugh their ass off watch hyuk vs fantasy imagine if vult were hellion lol
Just wait until they get spider mines in HotS
EDIT: If a protoss has to invest in cannons I dont see why Terrans dont just put a bunker with reapers in their base to hold off hellion harrass.
How many terrans would expect reapers in a bunker? it would own lol
I wonder why no pros split workers by selecting them all -> hit s -> hold F1 -> spam click your workers everywhere in the screen. All I see them do is just move them all away to a corner or to an expansion then those poor workers just line up and those hellions just burn them to the ground... =/
On August 26 2011 20:33 bokeevboke wrote: this patch is great, but there are things in SC2 that I can't still understand:
Tank range Sieged tank has ridiculous range of 13. Why do they need so much? How is it justified? I understand that tank is terran's primary AOE damager. But frankly they are pretty bad at dealing AoE damage. I mean if zerg has enough army to live through 13 range, then terran is doomed. 13 Range only good for abusive strategies and allins. It would be better if range was around 9 and splash damage was bigger. That way we could fix terran late game and make less abusive strategies in early game. Range of viking is ok, since they are slow, fragile and they're only way to fight colossi/broodlords.
PDD, Autoturret lifetime It feels that these things last forever. There is even upgrade to prolong their life. Why? What is the purpose to last that long? I don't understand it. Is it for defense?? These things are pretty bad at defending. Or is it for harassing? they're pretty bad at harassing too, low dps and enemy can simply run away. Infested terrans are much better, they do more damage, only 25 energy, and can walk around. It would be better if these spells had more power in a short period of time.
Force fields Forcefields are entire reason why protoss gateway units suck. Why FFs last so long? I believe the designer is same person who invented destructible rocks. I mean its ok to micro FF and do cutsy stuff but. This spell is "do or die". Single mistake from either side, and he is dead, will lose everything inevitably. Solution: Make the spell last shorter, that way enemy has more options and can save some stuff, at the same time buff gateway units.
Wrong, wrong and wrong.
Imagine trying to hold a ramp if force field only lasted 5 seconds lol, it gives you exactly enough time to warp in another sentry to try and save your ass from an unexpected rush.
It should last 5 seconds, but 20 seconds in a power field.
This way the ability is much more defensive than offensive. Also, if gateway units are buffed, then holding a ramp might not be needed anymore. The problem is going to be in terran armies kiting and making it impossible to get hits in for the protoss though... If this is going to happen charge needs to come faster, zealots need to be faster, and perhaps even reavers are needed.
On August 26 2011 18:46 Rabiator wrote: - Mothership SHOULD provide power just like the Warp Prism in phase prism mode. - The speed buff to Seeker Missile is nice, but you still need to run in pretty close to start it and at 125 energy it is too expensive to be useful anyways. Either the triggering range needs to increase (flying through lots of friendly units first reduces the chase duration and gives more reaction time, so it wouldnt be totally unfair IMO) or the energy needs to be reduced.
Personally I have a feeling that the Hellion nerf will make it ever harder for Terrans to win against Zerg before the Zerg are exploding in their economy and reach Brood Lord / Ultralisk tech. Terrans might need a buff for T3, but then the next expansion is close around the corner, so we dont know what will happen then.
terrans late game is strong as it is...turtle terran with mech/ghosts is hard to break. Terrans late game is fine just a lot terrans don't know how to do it properly (yet).
Also mech is fine as far as I saw a post zealots/zergligns still die in the same amount of shots from blue flamed hellions I wish people knew that! :D
If it is the same number of hits from a Hellion to kill these units, why change the damage at all if nothing changes? Simple answer: The main change is that blue flame Hellions (without +1) need THREE shots for workers instead of two, which is one of the biggest useages for them. Sure you can get around that with researching +1 for vehicles, but it is yet another research which Terrans NEED TO DO to stay viable and that isnt really a good thing.
As for Terran late game being strong ... that isnt really the case against Zerg - unless the Terran already has the Zerg in a stranglehold and almost dead. That is not so likely on bigger maps and the lack of mobility for everything Terran simply makes them weak against the easily remade Zerg swarms. Sure you can turtle as a Terran and hold out for some time, but you will have A LOT fewer resources than the Zerg and are more likely to lose. The more bases that turtling Terran has to defend the easier it gets to break them and a Zerg with "unlimited" resources can easily rightclick an undefended CC with a number of Banelings and kill it with just one move of a mouse.
i think that they should change it so that you can decide for yourself if you want that side-bar thing where if you click it the screen jumps. i have heard numorous of pro's being annoyed by that shit.
On August 26 2011 20:33 bokeevboke wrote: this patch is great, but there are things in SC2 that I can't still understand:
Tank range Sieged tank has ridiculous range of 13. Why do they need so much? How is it justified? I understand that tank is terran's primary AOE damager. But frankly they are pretty bad at dealing AoE damage. I mean if zerg has enough army to live through 13 range, then terran is doomed. 13 Range only good for abusive strategies and allins. It would be better if range was around 9 and splash damage was bigger. That way we could fix terran late game and make less abusive strategies in early game. Range of viking is ok, since they are slow, fragile and they're only way to fight colossi/broodlords.
PDD, Autoturret lifetime It feels that these things last forever. There is even upgrade to prolong their life. Why? What is the purpose to last that long? I don't understand it. Is it for defense?? These things are pretty bad at defending. Or is it for harassing? they're pretty bad at harassing too, low dps and enemy can simply run away. Infested terrans are much better, they do more damage, only 25 energy, and can walk around. It would be better if these spells had more power in a short period of time.
Force fields Forcefields are entire reason why protoss gateway units suck. Why FFs last so long? I believe the designer is same person who invented destructible rocks. I mean its ok to micro FF and do cutsy stuff but. This spell is "do or die". Single mistake from either side, and he is dead, will lose everything inevitably. Solution: Make the spell last shorter, that way enemy has more options and can save some stuff, at the same time buff gateway units.
Wrong, wrong and wrong.
Imagine trying to hold a ramp if force field only lasted 5 seconds lol, it gives you exactly enough time to warp in another sentry to try and save your ass from an unexpected rush.
It should last 5 seconds, but 20 seconds in a power field.
This way the ability is much more defensive than offensive. Also, if gateway units are buffed, then holding a ramp might not be needed anymore. The problem is going to be in terran armies kiting and making it impossible to get hits in for the protoss though... If this is going to happen charge needs to come faster, zealots need to be faster, and perhaps even reavers are needed.
On August 26 2011 20:33 bokeevboke wrote: this patch is great, but there are things in SC2 that I can't still understand:
Tank range Sieged tank has ridiculous range of 13. Why do they need so much? How is it justified? I understand that tank is terran's primary AOE damager. But frankly they are pretty bad at dealing AoE damage. I mean if zerg has enough army to live through 13 range, then terran is doomed. 13 Range only good for abusive strategies and allins. It would be better if range was around 9 and splash damage was bigger. That way we could fix terran late game and make less abusive strategies in early game. Range of viking is ok, since they are slow, fragile and they're only way to fight colossi/broodlords.
PDD, Autoturret lifetime It feels that these things last forever. There is even upgrade to prolong their life. Why? What is the purpose to last that long? I don't understand it. Is it for defense?? These things are pretty bad at defending. Or is it for harassing? they're pretty bad at harassing too, low dps and enemy can simply run away. Infested terrans are much better, they do more damage, only 25 energy, and can walk around. It would be better if these spells had more power in a short period of time.
Force fields Forcefields are entire reason why protoss gateway units suck. Why FFs last so long? I believe the designer is same person who invented destructible rocks. I mean its ok to micro FF and do cutsy stuff but. This spell is "do or die". Single mistake from either side, and he is dead, will lose everything inevitably. Solution: Make the spell last shorter, that way enemy has more options and can save some stuff, at the same time buff gateway units.
Wrong, wrong and wrong.
Imagine trying to hold a ramp if force field only lasted 5 seconds lol, it gives you exactly enough time to warp in another sentry to try and save your ass from an unexpected rush.
It should last 5 seconds, but 20 seconds in a power field.
This way the ability is much more defensive than offensive. Also, if gateway units are buffed, then holding a ramp might not be needed anymore. The problem is going to be in terran armies kiting and making it impossible to get hits in for the protoss though... If this is going to happen charge needs to come faster, zealots need to be faster, and perhaps even reavers are needed.
PvP would be back to only 4 gating tho.
Why? Maybe not. A buff to stalkers will also make blink better. Longer lasting force fields if they touch a power field means you can stop a 4gate with much more ease, because of the recent ramp vision change. Immortal build time could be a bit less, and then going immortals will still work.
On August 26 2011 20:33 bokeevboke wrote: this patch is great, but there are things in SC2 that I can't still understand:
Tank range Sieged tank has ridiculous range of 13. Why do they need so much? How is it justified? I understand that tank is terran's primary AOE damager. But frankly they are pretty bad at dealing AoE damage. I mean if zerg has enough army to live through 13 range, then terran is doomed. 13 Range only good for abusive strategies and allins. It would be better if range was around 9 and splash damage was bigger. That way we could fix terran late game and make less abusive strategies in early game. Range of viking is ok, since they are slow, fragile and they're only way to fight colossi/broodlords.
PDD, Autoturret lifetime It feels that these things last forever. There is even upgrade to prolong their life. Why? What is the purpose to last that long? I don't understand it. Is it for defense?? These things are pretty bad at defending. Or is it for harassing? they're pretty bad at harassing too, low dps and enemy can simply run away. Infested terrans are much better, they do more damage, only 25 energy, and can walk around. It would be better if these spells had more power in a short period of time.
Force fields Forcefields are entire reason why protoss gateway units suck. Why FFs last so long? I believe the designer is same person who invented destructible rocks. I mean its ok to micro FF and do cutsy stuff but. This spell is "do or die". Single mistake from either side, and he is dead, will lose everything inevitably. Solution: Make the spell last shorter, that way enemy has more options and can save some stuff, at the same time buff gateway units.
Wrong, wrong and wrong.
Imagine trying to hold a ramp if force field only lasted 5 seconds lol, it gives you exactly enough time to warp in another sentry to try and save your ass from an unexpected rush.
It should last 5 seconds, but 20 seconds in a power field.
This way the ability is much more defensive than offensive. Also, if gateway units are buffed, then holding a ramp might not be needed anymore. The problem is going to be in terran armies kiting and making it impossible to get hits in for the protoss though... If this is going to happen charge needs to come faster, zealots need to be faster, and perhaps even reavers are needed.
PvP would be back to only 4 gating tho.
yeah 5 seconds would make the sentry useless, and PvZ would be a joke, Z would run all over toss. and PvP would be pure 4gate
On August 26 2011 20:33 bokeevboke wrote: this patch is great, but there are things in SC2 that I can't still understand:
Tank range Sieged tank has ridiculous range of 13. Why do they need so much? How is it justified? I understand that tank is terran's primary AOE damager. But frankly they are pretty bad at dealing AoE damage. I mean if zerg has enough army to live through 13 range, then terran is doomed. 13 Range only good for abusive strategies and allins. It would be better if range was around 9 and splash damage was bigger. That way we could fix terran late game and make less abusive strategies in early game. Range of viking is ok, since they are slow, fragile and they're only way to fight colossi/broodlords.
PDD, Autoturret lifetime It feels that these things last forever. There is even upgrade to prolong their life. Why? What is the purpose to last that long? I don't understand it. Is it for defense?? These things are pretty bad at defending. Or is it for harassing? they're pretty bad at harassing too, low dps and enemy can simply run away. Infested terrans are much better, they do more damage, only 25 energy, and can walk around. It would be better if these spells had more power in a short period of time.
Force fields Forcefields are entire reason why protoss gateway units suck. Why FFs last so long? I believe the designer is same person who invented destructible rocks. I mean its ok to micro FF and do cutsy stuff but. This spell is "do or die". Single mistake from either side, and he is dead, will lose everything inevitably. Solution: Make the spell last shorter, that way enemy has more options and can save some stuff, at the same time buff gateway units.
Wrong, wrong and wrong.
Imagine trying to hold a ramp if force field only lasted 5 seconds lol, it gives you exactly enough time to warp in another sentry to try and save your ass from an unexpected rush.
It should last 5 seconds, but 20 seconds in a power field.
This way the ability is much more defensive than offensive. Also, if gateway units are buffed, then holding a ramp might not be needed anymore. The problem is going to be in terran armies kiting and making it impossible to get hits in for the protoss though... If this is going to happen charge needs to come faster, zealots need to be faster, and perhaps even reavers are needed.
PvP would be back to only 4 gating tho.
yeah 5 seconds would make the sentry useless, and PvZ would be a joke, Z would run all over toss. and PvP would be pure 4gate
We are talking about buffing gateway units a lot here if forcefields outside of power fields are changed to last 10 or 5 seconds.
It's just sad how important force fields are. You can't win without them, and if you use them perfectly you gain a huge advantage, so your other units have to be really weak to compromise for that.
On August 26 2011 20:33 bokeevboke wrote: this patch is great, but there are things in SC2 that I can't still understand:
Tank range Sieged tank has ridiculous range of 13. Why do they need so much? How is it justified? I understand that tank is terran's primary AOE damager. But frankly they are pretty bad at dealing AoE damage. I mean if zerg has enough army to live through 13 range, then terran is doomed. 13 Range only good for abusive strategies and allins. It would be better if range was around 9 and splash damage was bigger. That way we could fix terran late game and make less abusive strategies in early game. Range of viking is ok, since they are slow, fragile and they're only way to fight colossi/broodlords.
PDD, Autoturret lifetime It feels that these things last forever. There is even upgrade to prolong their life. Why? What is the purpose to last that long? I don't understand it. Is it for defense?? These things are pretty bad at defending. Or is it for harassing? they're pretty bad at harassing too, low dps and enemy can simply run away. Infested terrans are much better, they do more damage, only 25 energy, and can walk around. It would be better if these spells had more power in a short period of time.
Force fields Forcefields are entire reason why protoss gateway units suck. Why FFs last so long? I believe the designer is same person who invented destructible rocks. I mean its ok to micro FF and do cutsy stuff but. This spell is "do or die". Single mistake from either side, and he is dead, will lose everything inevitably. Solution: Make the spell last shorter, that way enemy has more options and can save some stuff, at the same time buff gateway units.
Wrong, wrong and wrong.
Imagine trying to hold a ramp if force field only lasted 5 seconds lol, it gives you exactly enough time to warp in another sentry to try and save your ass from an unexpected rush.
It should last 5 seconds, but 20 seconds in a power field.
This way the ability is much more defensive than offensive. Also, if gateway units are buffed, then holding a ramp might not be needed anymore. The problem is going to be in terran armies kiting and making it impossible to get hits in for the protoss though... If this is going to happen charge needs to come faster, zealots need to be faster, and perhaps even reavers are needed.
PvP would be back to only 4 gating tho.
yeah 5 seconds would make the sentry useless, and PvZ would be a joke, Z would run all over toss. and PvP would be pure 4gate
We are talking about buffing gateway units a lot here if forcefields outside of power fields are changed to last 10 or 5 seconds.
It's just sad how important force fields are. You can't win without them, and if you use them perfectly you gain a huge advantage, so your other units have to be really weak to compromise for that.
well, if anything they need a buff. protoss are getting dominated at pro level, ZvP and TvP are the 2 match up's with the highest win percents for the last month
On August 26 2011 20:54 CarlaBruni wrote: they need to nerf hellion even more tbh the units is still ridiculously overpowered how much cost toss aoe / harass units that gives map control and can instant win games anytimes when bw progamer will switch to sc2 they re going to laugh their ass off watch hyuk vs fantasy imagine if vult were hellion lol
Just wait until they get spider mines in HotS
EDIT: If a protoss has to invest in cannons I dont see why Terrans dont just put a bunker with reapers in their base to hold off hellion harrass.
How many terrans would expect reapers in a bunker? it would own lol
Terrans don't do that because thats 4 less army supply that u have for battles. And also 300 minerals and 200 gas for hellions that might not even come is a bit much.
I can see where theyre coming from with this patch, but the BFH change does seem a tad extreme to me. I wish there was another way to end the ridiculous 3 hellion auto win (when BFH get into mineral line) that seems to occur in a lot of games. I love using builds in TvT that involve using lots of hellions vs heavy numbers of marines, because I find tanks to immobile when the enemy uses good drop play.
The barracks increase time is totally understandable for all the 2 barracks rushes vs Z, but it could affect timings for stim/combat shield and the protoss might be able to work out a good timing for attack.
The protoss changes are really good IMO, I think the immortal change is good, and the anti mothership lag will be awesome in 4v4 . And the zerg infestor change seems alright as well... Ultra change is good because they are absolutely useless unless you've rolled your enemy and you have extra resources to burn Overseer change is good too, cheap overseers mean DTs wont catch me off guard at all, it will be much more viable to have an overseer regardless 'just in case'.
Overall seems to be a pretty decent patch. Actually happy about this one.
Disclaimer: I now play zerg, but mained as Terran for the first 2 seasons, so im trying not to be too biased :D
Zealots charge has got a change which cancel the charge buff if the zealot actually get a new order after this buff. The reason of that is that the charge buff wont stop until the zealot catch the unit he wants to attack. With some micro we were then able to make super long charge. I do not agree with Blizzard fix. Even if this fix has to happen right now i would prefer a simple 2 sec buff instead of removing the buff from happening when a new order happen. Simply because spamming A-Click will remove the charge, which is kinda stupid since you need to give orders to your zealots when the opponent's army is moving.
Here is a video explaing showing the "bug" or whatever it is called.
On August 26 2011 19:57 eYeball wrote: Well immortals are more expensive and hard counter to marauders. However against marines they are not, and it's extremly bad to trade marines for immortals. I don't know what this test is about still? That the extra range makes them more available? I always keep my immortals in front as tanks anyways rather than damage dealers, but for the rest I guess it can make a small difference.
They beat marines very convincingly with guardian shield, not a counter?
Bullshit. The only thing that matters when comparing units of different types against each other is to look at their ACTUAL cost.
To do that you have to multiply the gas cost of the unit by 2 (or something like that). You should also take into account production time of the unit, its supply cost, as well as the time and resources it takes to tech to it.
I will forego all that for now and ONLY look at Minerals+Gas cost of both Marines and Immortals, to approximate the 'actual' cost of the unit (this is not considering the valuable time of using Robotics Facility production, in reality the Immortal would actually have an even higher actual cost in relation to the Marine):
Marines: 50 Minerals Actual cost: 50.
Immortals: 250 Minerals 100 Gas (*2 = 200) Actual cost: 450.
450/50 = 9
That means that an Immortal will only be cost efficient against Marines if it manages to single-handily kill 9 Marines. To test in large groups, you have to test with f.ex. 10 Immortals versus 90 Marines in order to have a fair fight, resource-wise. If the 10 Immortals win, it is worth using Immortals against Marines; if the Marines win, vice versa.
Actually, I think it'd be more precise to say that an Immortal would have to kill roughly 10 Marines (before dying) in order to be cost effective. This is due to the cost of teching to Robo, as well as the extra supply/build time of the Immortals in comparison to Marines.
Now, through some 'rough' testing in the Galaxy editor (I have updated the Immortal to give it +1 range like in the Patch Notes, A-moved clumps of units), I come to the following conclusions:
A group of 10 Immortals [~4500 resources] gets absolutely demolished by 90 Marines [~4500 resources].
A group of 10 Immortals [~4500 resources] gets destroyed by 80 [~4000] resources Marines (with over half the Marines left standing).
A group of 10 Immortals [~4500 resources] gets destroyed by 70 [~3500] resources Marines (with about half the Marines left standing).
A group of 10 Immortals [~4500 resources] gets killed by 50 [~2500] resources Marines (with nearly 20 Marines left standing).
Between 40 and 45 Marines, the two groups end up even (kill each other). That means that it takes 4500 resources worth of Immortals to kill 2125 worth of Marines. It is over twice (2,1 times) as effective using Marines against Immortals than it is using Immortals against Marines.
On August 26 2011 19:57 eYeball wrote: Well immortals are more expensive and hard counter to marauders. However against marines they are not, and it's extremly bad to trade marines for immortals. I don't know what this test is about still? That the extra range makes them more available? I always keep my immortals in front as tanks anyways rather than damage dealers, but for the rest I guess it can make a small difference.
They beat marines very convincingly with guardian shield, not a counter?
Bullshit. The only thing that matters when comparing units of different types against each other is to look at their ACTUAL cost.
To do that you have to multiply the gas cost of the unit by 2 (or something like that). You should also take into account production time of the unit, its supply cost, as well as the time and resources it takes to tech to it.
I will forego all that for now and ONLY look at Minerals+Gas cost of both Marines and Immortals, to approximate the 'actual' cost of the unit (this is not considering the valuable time of using Robotics Facility production, in reality the Immortal would actually have an even higher actual cost in relation to the Marine):
Marines: 50 Minerals Actual cost: 50.
Immortals: 250 Minerals 100 Gas (*2 = 200) Actual cost: 450.
450/50 = 9
That means that an Immortal will only be cost efficient against Marines if it manages to single-handily kill 9 Marines. To test in large groups, you have to test with f.ex. 10 Immortals versus 90 Marines in order to have a fair fight, resource-wise. If the 10 Immortals win, it is worth using Immortals against Marines; if the Marines win, vice versa.
Actually, I think it'd be more precise to say that an Immortal would have to kill roughly 10 Marines (before dying) in order to be cost effective. This is due to the cost of teching to Robo, as well as the extra supply/build time of the Immortals in comparison to Marines.
Now, through some 'rough' testing in the Galaxy editor (I have updated the Immortal to give it +1 range like in the Patch Notes, A-moved clumps of units), I come to the following conclusions:
A group of 10 Immortals [~4500 resources] gets absolutely demolished by 90 Marines [~4500 resources].
A group of 10 Immortals [~4500 resources] gets destroyed by 80 [~4000] resources Marines (with over half the Marines left standing).
A group of 10 Immortals [~4500 resources] gets destroyed by 70 [~3500] resources Marines (with about half the Marines left standing).
A group of 10 Immortals [~4500 resources] gets killed by 50 [~2500] resources Marines (with nearly 20 Marines left standing).
Between 40 and 45 Marines, the two groups end up even (kill each other). That means that it takes 4500 resources worth of Immortals to kill 2125 worth of Marines. It is over twice (2,1 times) as effective using Marines against Immortals than it is using Immortals against Marines.
you know he just made a 300 post thread about his brilliant idea right?
On August 26 2011 22:20 cptBlueBlitz wrote: Zealots charge has got a change which cancel the charge buff if the zealot actually get a new order after this buff. The reason of that is that the charge buff wont stop until the zealot catch the unit he wants to attack. With some micro we were then able to make super long charge. I do not agree with Blizzard fix. Even if this fix has to happen right now i would prefer a simple 2 sec buff instead of removing the buff from happening when a new order happen. Simply because spamming A-Click will remove the charge, which is kinda stupid since you need to give orders to your zealots when the opponent's army is moving.
Here is a video explaing showing the "bug" or whatever it is called.
EPT
