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On August 11 2011 05:39 Chaosvuistje wrote:
Protoss is just harder to break in the late stages, they easily have the strongest fortification in the early game and the strongest army costefficiency wise in the late game.
This just makes the race frustrating to play against. If you let the protoss take position on your natural or just get bases slowly then yes, they are going to roflstomp all over your face. Seeing as a lot of ladder tosses just sit on their asses and macro up while sitting behind a fortification, this makes for a rather emotional end. After all, you dropped him, harrassed him, tried a run by, outmacroed him in the midgame, but he still defeated your army while he did none of that.
My 2 cents is when HotS comes about, they should scrap the boring collosus and give the protoss a strong harrass unit. This will make the race more fun to play and more exciting to play against.
how does protoss have the strongest early game composition to break. terran easily takes that spot with the capability to do damage/harass and not fall behind economically at almost every stage of the game.
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I believe I heard some pro player say once "Their stuff is the most expensive so it's easiest to macro and they have the least stuff so it's easier to micro". Don't know how true that is but it makes sense kind of.
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Each race has it's easy and difficult aspects. For example, protoss is the only race that has to look away from the fight if he wants to warp in units during a fight. On the other hand, zerg is the only race that needs to manage his map control. (overlords + creep tumors) You get the idea. All in all, I I think it is pretty balanced.
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Completely depends on what skillevel the players are on. I mean, on the top-top level, there is nothing easy about any race, they've all had about equal success, or at least all the races has had great success so I say they're pretty even.
On lower levels, the ability to choose whether you want to produce Mineral-heavy or gas-heavy units is a big thing to me. I mean, on lower levels, Stalkers/Sentries/Zealots are all great pretty much no matter the mixture, the ability to stop the gas from floating away while not teching and stopping the minerals from floating away while teching really makes the protoss able to constantly be low on resources early to mid-game and this is a great upside. On the other hand, on lower levels, you pretty much just have to siege to win as T. I don't know, but I do understand why certain players seem to think Protoss is the easiest. I just think Zerg is the hardest after a while, you need to be able to scout adequately in like Plat to be successful as Zerg while as P and T you can pretty much do without. That's just my 2 cents though...
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IMO macro difficulty goes in order of
zerg > protoss > terran
Zerg: obviously harder because of larva injects, but can just hit hotkey for hatch and hold down a key to instant remax.
Protoss: everyone says warp ins = easy mode.. BUT protoss is the only race where you have to LEAVE the battle to rebuild your army
Terran: same as zerg but with no inject timings.. racks hotkey and spam M/M
Micro difficulty
Terran > Protoss > zerg
Terran: Split up M/M vs banes/infestors colossus/storms etc
Protoss: lots of spells storm/FF/Feedback/blink etc. They do have some A move armies though..
Zerg: all you really have to do is get off some good surrounds + fungels
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On August 11 2011 05:17 TehForce wrote:
Its not about how easy or hard it is to play the race. It is about with which race learning the game is the easiest.
Learning with Terran:
- Lots of Hotkeys and or tabbing required. (Same with Toss)
- Constant production needs a lot of focus (e.g. 5ss4aad3sTABdd)
- No Auto-Defense-Building. (Except Planetary, also not for air) (turrets accmplish a lot of what cannons are for, minus attacking ground, and for that u have customizable bunkers filled iwth marines or marauders... not saying T is OP in tehat regards,.... just saying its not a seperate learnign curve aspect IMO)
- Need to learn Stop&Go Firing (Same with every race... That's usefull for every ranged unit)
Learning with Zerg:
- Injections are very hard to pull off (Um, what?.. V click?... or do you mean the queen heal?)
- You need battle micro, so your lings dont run into hellions and roaches not into marauder (avoiding your enemies counters is important for every race, not just zerg)
- Need to learn A LOT to defend all one base cheeses you will encounter. (debateably the same for every race. T and P can get 4gated as well... etc... I think this should be re-named "learning to manage drone production timings)
- Larva management is something you have to learn which is vastly a different mechanic than the other races
Learning with Protoss:
- Convient warp-in mechanic with W as standard hotkey. In most (beginner) games you only need this hotkey, one for nexus and maybe another one for robo/stargate. (only mention beginner games only in Protoss section.... hmmm)
- Deathball. A-Move is all you need (You're right... FF, gaurdian shield, feedback, storm, graviton beam, and positioning are all useless... Again, I'm not saying Toss is difficult or more difficult than other races... just refuting this point.)
- Cannons which defends against Air/Ground/Invisible (Also more expensive, cannot be moved (zerg), and every race has base defence.. Not sure how this applies to how difficult the race is to learn)
- Easiest Beginner Builds (4Gate) (True here... However T does have some relatively easy openers as well. I agree zerg is lacking here... except for the select few that will want to include 6pool/7pool)
- Most forgivible macro mechanic (chrono boost. nobody needs that at the start) (Some wil argue mule drops is. As you can suddenly drop all your energy on mules if you have forgotten... with chrono... it can only be used on available techs/buildingn units... which there may not eb enough going on at the time to use up all your energy... So there is a slightly higher penalty for "forgetting" chrono. However the ability to use this on techs AND units probably makes up for this vs. MULES. Still.. I would not include this as being "easier" for protoss)
This doesn't mean that protoss is the easiest to play, but just the easiest to begin with.
I disagree. My points are in bold. Disclaimer: I play Toss, Macro is definately easiest with Toss... micro mid-late game IMO is probably the hardest (unless you are a ghost/raven using Terran, in which case It's pretty balalnced.)
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On August 11 2011 05:31 Arisen wrote:
Protoss units have a lot of synergy together to make them strong as a group of basic units. Stalker/Zeal/Sentry is potent in every matchup, and so is the "deathball". Protoss t3 has a lot of splash damage which synergizes extremely well with gateway units. Since protoss synergy is so high, just by having a big ball of units, you are extremly effective with minimal control.
For these reasons, it's fairly easy to get your protoss to a reasonable level. The same thing happened in BW. It was much easier to get from D to C as protoss because it was much more forgiving on players with poorer unit control, macro, decision making, etc. However, much like BW, I think Protoss is very hard to go from "pretty good" to "damn good". How many protosses won Starleagues in comparison to Terran, the "hard race?", or even zerg? Not many. Protoss at the highest levels is unforgiving because their units are so expensive. SUre, at this early evolution of the game, protosses are basically dominating (with the exception of a few notable players), but as time goes on, protoss will become less and less effective at higher levels (imo), just like we saw in brood war.
So, in short, Protoss is the easiest race (pretty unarguably) to pick up and play for a begineer, but at the highest levels they still have a tremendous amount of difficulty bridging the gap between good and great, like all the other races.
If by beginner you mean bronze, maybe. Higher than that up until higher platinum marine-marauder with stim rules in my experience as the easiest to execute build with high winning rate as protosses on that level are bad with ff and on most maps just end up on 1 base without ability to expand. After that with knowledge of their possibilities and what to do against them you win.
Another thing I know from my own experience is that macroing (as far as keeping money low) as terran (even somewhat as zerg) on lower levels is actually easier than protoss, because on that level you are still bad at leaving your army during battles to macro, and with terran and zerg you can build and rally units anyway, not so with protoss.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Protoss doesn't have has many options as Zerg and Terran, therefore its easier.
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On August 11 2011 05:41 Sky0 wrote:
this thread is about low mid to maybe slightly above avg gamers.
why is that? because you say so? -.-
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On August 11 2011 05:10 Lewan72 wrote:
I hate it when people say Protoss is 1a move attack win. Protoss requires the MOST micro out of any race. If anything ZERG is a 1a move attack win race (not trying to diss on zerg, zerg is still hard and you have to macro very good). And then they say Protoss is then OP when we have the lowest winrate.
Yay
I think you got this all wrong... Terran is 1a move and Zerg is a 1a move- DIE. If a zerg 1a's they are ****.
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One interesting thing about playing Protoss is that it can actually help force better mechanics. What I mean about this is that with warp gates you can't que up army so you are forced to learn a rotation. This is one of the RTS basics that protoss play forces on you.
Second of all if you are pretty diligent about chrono boosts it is a great reminder about things that are often forgot at lower levels. As you play chronoing your gateways ends up not being efficient since unless you are really good it is very difficult to manage gateways that are on different warp in cool downs. This means if you want to use it you need to use it on probes or upgrades which is great habit to get in, whereas with zerg or Terran have macro mechanic is more of a flat bonus in that those extra larva can always be used on more army and the money can be used in any way you feel fit.
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My reason for thinking that Protoss is the easiest is:
1. Their macro mecanics is pretty linear.
-- Compair this to Queens which you have to cast injects on multiple hatch every so often
-- Or the fact that you have to spend either on mule, scans or supply and if you mule and than need a scan you're done?
2. All toss units cost a bajillion mineral and thousands or gaz (ok ok exagerating)
-- It makes it easy to macro as 1000 minerals is spend on only a couple units. While if you're zerg it will take quite sometime to spend 1000 minerals and you also have the larvea restrictions.
3. Warp in
-- Altho it doesn't forgive you, it is clearly an instant gratification. By this I mean.... OOPS my macro slipped and im now in need of a few units to defend ---> WARP IN, CHRONO, WARP IN
4. The fact that you can wall in and stay in your base till you get 200/200 without thinking too much. As soon as you reach 3 saturated bases... you're done. The only thing left to do is to get that 200/200 army and that will get you to masters.
5. Finaly... how strong protoss are early game with 4-5 gates or 7 gate expands... will grant you easier early victories.
THAT BEING SAID!
I think that protoss is hard micro wize since you have alot of spells and units to maneuver.
IMO:
Zerg is hard in decision making, larvea/macro management
Terran is hard macro wize
Protoss is hard micro wize
So yes, they're all hard on some points... but I do find that protoss is a bit easier to learn. When you reach high masters level... I think they're all pretty much the same! 
It all comes down to how good you are at macro !
Hope it helps!
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On August 11 2011 05:35 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 05:31 Willba wrote:
I think Protoss micro is easier in terms of applying it, you forcefield/storm and your done, meanwhile a Terran will be kiting his heart out while getting his army picked apart. I played a game yesterday where I could see his units where pretty much following mine while I kited and used drop micro to barely survive. I think its just more forgiving of your mistakes as a race, at least at lower levels. You think this because you don't understand what it takes for protoss to win battles at a high level. I am not trying to marginalize what terran has to do but watch a player like huk and how much he constantly has to adjust his units and positioning. Both sides micro as much as they are able to in order to gain advantage, and just like terran if the protoss does a poor job of that he is likely to lose the battle. If the protoss doesn't micro against a good terran then the terran will tear him apart with his own micro.
I said 'at least at lower levels', at high levels blink micro is used individually on stalkers and mistakes like missed forcefields are punished much more. However I can pretty confidently say at my level (Platinum) I'm usually microing much more than my opponent.
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Nobody claims protoss is the easiest at the top level, only at beginner level. The main reason is very basic, and is true for SC1/BW too - the protoss race is designed to have the strongest, fewest, most expensive units. This means there's a lot less to produce and a lot less (in numbers) to control. More units generally means more tasks, both in macro and micro.
To extrapolate the protoss design to extreme - it would be a race that only has one super unit for 150 supply. You build it, and then you either lose the game, or you win the game. And the race is not op, it gets 50/50 winrate, but it would be the easiest to play. That's the extreme form of the toss race design.
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On August 11 2011 05:31 DannyJ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 05:29 Chargelot wrote:
"Protoss is easy" - Everyone but Protoss
"Protoss has the lowest win rate" - Statistical data
I wonder who is right? Everyone but protoss is right when talking about Masters and below and statistical data is right when you are playing pros. P is a borked race.
The irony is that you're Terran. It's like if I said "you're in denial" and then you responded with "no I'm not."
I suppose that irony extends to me, also being a Terran.
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Protoss Macro seems easy because you have a t1 unit that costs 100 minerals and a t1 unit that costs 100 gas, making it by far the easiest race to keep you money low, which at low skill levels is really all you need to win. I used to think Zerg was the hardest when I played Protoss only, but now that I play random think any difference in minuscule. with Terran mabye being the hardest because you manage the most different building types in an average game.
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On August 11 2011 05:44 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 05:41 Sky0 wrote:
this thread is about low mid to maybe slightly above avg gamers. why is that? because you say so? -.-
Because the OP clearly stated he was in silver league and most arguments referring to ease of a race lie in the non high level player realm. clearly at a high level ease of race is not an argument but rather individual units in specific army encounters,which is a balance discussion which this isnt a balance discussion.
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why are you so defensive travis?
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I believe Protoss macro is the most straightforward but not necessarily the most rewarding. Protoss micro is the most difficult but certainly the most rewarding.
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EPT
