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On June 03 2011 02:40 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 02:35 Elegance wrote:
Problem with 90% of guys is that they put women at a high value (and more importantly, higher value than themselves). That's why they can't get girls or become providers or orbiters. Whatever you wanna call them. What is the "problem" you're trying to address? That they don't get laid enough? Some people don't find any detriment to their life by putting other people at a high value.
Let's put it this way. You see a hot girl that you want to talk to and get to know (doesnt matter where). And because she is "hot" your mind automatically puts her at a higher value than yours subconsciously. When that happens, it is an uphill battle (just to even fucking talk to her) from the very beginning. without knowing, you will constantly try to validate yourself to her and your confidence level will be much lower (and therefore she realizes that you are lower value than her) and you get blown out.
Let's put it to you this way. When you talk to an unattractive girl (whom you have no intentions to makeout with or anything) just to talk, you put yourself at a higher value than her (because women's value is highly based on their looks). Then its basically easy from there a) you have no attachments to the outcome and b) she has to validate herself to you because you have no intentions to do anything with her. Basically in short, its easy.
It takes men literally half a second to decide if a woman is attractive or not (looks)
It takes women time to decide if a man is attractive (they have to talk to them)
One "glitch" here is that women don't know the value of a man until she talks to him.
So combining all these facts together, if you believe that you are higher value than that gorgeous girl over there, then really. Its easy. She sees you as the higher value because basically you are nont attached to the outcomes, have no intentions with her other than small talk. So in turn, they try to validate themselves to you and feel attraction for you because naturally you are higher value than her.
This may sound garbage to some people but it certainly makes sense to me
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On June 03 2011 02:40 Ganjamaster wrote:
You get a dude with a bunch of insecurities, you buy him a SMOKING HOT ESCORT who will bang the shit out of him. He will come out feeling like a boss, act like a boss and his confidence level will be boosted. He can then use this newfound confidence to attract girls without paying.
This might sound like it does not work, but I have seen it work personally a thousand times like a charm.
lol This is part of the reason why my conservative Catholic father thinks prostitution should be legal. (He isn't a model Catholic.)
Think of it this way - you always feel more confident about your ability to get girls when you're in a relationship. Why? Well, because you got a girl already, and if you lose out on some bonus chance then it really doesn't matter to you. Plus, you got a girl, who says you can't do it again? [Not talking about this in an 'unfaithful' context, just the mentality of it.]
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On June 03 2011 02:46 scorch- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 02:35 dreamsmasher wrote:if you get the game you'll realize at some point that being a better person, and gaining stuff like interesting hobbies/skills/ shit that women like should be gotten in of itself, not just for getting laid. are my hobbies not interesting enough for women? shit, better change my life to be more appealing.
I don't think that's what he meant anyway. If you have hobbies that you enjoy and are good at, you can find women through them, even if they're not all that appealing to women. I've met women through programming and playing go, both of which don't typically have a lot of females doing them.
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United States22883 Posts
On June 03 2011 02:45 billyX333 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 02:40 Jibba wrote:On June 03 2011 02:35 Elegance wrote:
Problem with 90% of guys is that they put women at a high value (and more importantly, higher value than themselves). That's why they can't get girls or become providers or orbiters. Whatever you wanna call them. What is the "problem" you're trying to address? That they don't get laid enough? Some people don't find any detriment to their life by putting other people at a high value. you seriously dont see a problem with feeling inferior and not good enough? First, insecurity is a normal human emotion. Second, and more importantly, you've tied it directly to getting laid. If you have low self esteem, don't practice feigning confidence so you can get women. Find stuff that makes you feel good and improves your life, like going to the gym, reading books, volunteering, etc.
It's ironic that people claim "normal" people put women on a pedestal, when all the positive things those books describe can and arguably should be done without the thought of getting a mate crossing your mind. It's the PUA community that advocates self improvement to attain another person.
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On June 03 2011 00:11 TheDougler wrote:Show nested quote +
For those who have been involved, what are your thoughts? My personal experience has been that they are a very supportive group of people, usually very happy to help wing and improve your game, even at times give emotional support. However, out of the community I was with of about 30 core members two have been deranged in the head, in the sense that they were incredibly sexist and happily threw around jokes about abuse.
I'm an active member of the community, so of course I will be a bit biased but I think it is truly fantastic stuff. Also, they're gonna get a lot and I mean A LOT of hate from all those that don't understand. I think that's fine, it doesn't really affect me what internet randoms think, but I wish they took the time to investigate what exactly is going on before they condemn. Take this for example: http://kingpinlifestyle.com/What do you see there? Articles on getting over laziness, being a man of action, and how to quit video games if one wants to. Quote from the playing video games article: Show nested quote +Why should you listen to me?
Well, growing up I played video games as much as I possibly could. It got to the point that I would refuse to even do any chores around the house because that would take time away from playing video games. How absurd. I didn’t play video games casually either; I played them to an extreme competitive level, competed in tournaments and ran one of my teams like you would run a business.
My video game career (haha I’m not kidding, I viewed it as a career) began playing the original version of Starcraft when it first came out. From here I moved onto Counterstrike 1.6, which ended up being the game I would play the most. I competed competitively in Counterstrike 1.6, playing in both CAL and CEVO leagues. At one point I was an admin for the CEVO league. My CS 1.6 team would practice every day for between 4-8 hours (as a team). When we weren’t practicing as a team, I would practice on my own. I took that game so seriously I actually took lessons for it, from one of the best guys in the world. To improve my play I would study game film. I did whatever I could to get better. I played competitive CS 1.6 for many years.
After my CS 1.6 career ended, I started to play World of Warcraft. For the next year I played this game 16 hours a day, every day. If I didn’t have better things to do, I would login to my account and show everybody the total number of days played vs. the number of days I was active in the game. It would blow your mind. I’m not kidding: I played 16 hours a day every day for over a year. NUTS. I had the #1 ranked hunter on the server I played on, and after transferring to a new server (one of the more popular ones), I was recruited by a top 10 guild IN THE WORLD to be on their roster. This was ridiculous. Before joining this guild I decided to quit the game. This was right around the time that I decided to make a few last ditch efforts to save my relationship (which didn’t work). Shortly after I read “The Game”, which kick started my journey into what I do now. I started to play “DOTA” for a few months before I decided to take “pick-up” more seriously. I knew the absolute ONLY way this was going to be possible was if I stopped playing video games all together, so I decided that was exactly what I was going to do, and in October 2007 I quit them cold mother fuckin’ turkey. The thing is that the community is all about bettering oneself. What is wrong with that?
What's funny is the creator of that site (Cam/Elektro), is actually my brother haha.
My problem with the article when it first came out (other than it being directed at me, as he has wanted me to quit for a "better lifestyle" for a while now), is that his gaming lifestyle was much more detrimental to his personal life than it is for most people. He was, in every sense of the word, addicted to gaming as a form of escape. In the end, I think it was good for him to quit (he would get a job, and would go to it in the morning, then come home as soon as my parents were gone and just play, making my parents think he was actually working), but I think his views of gaming are skewed because he seems to blame them for his problems, rather than accepting that he was using them to escape, something not everyone takes part in to the extent that he did.
On the topic of PUA, I will say that it is a pretty open community actually and not very womanizing as most people think. A lot of people think of game as making women objects and that being taught by a PUA is just being given a set recipe to try over 100 women, hoping that 1 will buy it. When actually, (at least in my brothers case with Kingpin Social), it is a lot more focused on the confidence and fears of the individual, and using those to generate truly meaningful relationships with the sex you desire.
Not to say that it is not at all a "one night stand" community, my brother certainly celebrates every time a student texts him that he just boned some chick from the club.
Maybe I'll send him the link to this so he can answer anyone's questions, he's pretty open.
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I read The Game and really enjoyed it. It was a really good story if nothing else. I did pick up a few good things from the book though. There is a good message of overcoming your fears in order to achieve your goals and improving yourself in all aspects of life.
I disliked much of the routines the PUAs use in order to get women to sleep with them. The manipulation/hypnotizing acts in my opinion seem unethical.
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On June 03 2011 02:53 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 02:45 billyX333 wrote:On June 03 2011 02:40 Jibba wrote:On June 03 2011 02:35 Elegance wrote:
Problem with 90% of guys is that they put women at a high value (and more importantly, higher value than themselves). That's why they can't get girls or become providers or orbiters. Whatever you wanna call them. What is the "problem" you're trying to address? That they don't get laid enough? Some people don't find any detriment to their life by putting other people at a high value. you seriously dont see a problem with feeling inferior and not good enough? First, insecurity is a normal human emotion. Second, and more importantly, you've tied it directly to getting laid. If you have low self esteem, don't practice feigning confidence so you can get women. Find stuff that makes you feel good and improves your life, like going to the gym, reading books, volunteering, etc. It's ironic that people claim "normal" people put women on a pedestal, when all the positive things those books describe can and arguably should be done without the thought of getting a mate crossing your mind. It's the PUA community that advocates self improvement to attain another person.
Here's my 2 cents.
You're advocating them to get a life, which I agree with. Going to the gym, volunteer and getting hobbies is something everybody should do.
But even if you do that, it doesn't mean you'l conquer your fears of approaching women. What is the best way to conquer those fears? Approach more women and see them eye-to-eye (same value as you are). At the beginning, you think: "Ah shit, I'l look stupid. I don't want to get embarrassed in front of my friends blah blah". That's where you see her too much of a false Godesse; you see her with too much value.
At the beginning, it will definitely feel like fake confidence. As you practice more and more, you'l overcome it and it will become a real confidence. Eventually you see her eye-to-eye and just have fun.
Its like being scared of heights. I'm deathly scared of heights and when I went skydiving, I was fucking scared to death. You try to be brave, but you can't help to be scared. As you progress, you become more habituated.
Its about realizing that your worst fears are essentially imagined. They're not real. And when you realize that the fears that you had before are imaginary, you become a better and more confident person...and you end up living a much better life.
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On June 03 2011 02:53 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 02:45 billyX333 wrote:On June 03 2011 02:40 Jibba wrote:On June 03 2011 02:35 Elegance wrote:
Problem with 90% of guys is that they put women at a high value (and more importantly, higher value than themselves). That's why they can't get girls or become providers or orbiters. Whatever you wanna call them. What is the "problem" you're trying to address? That they don't get laid enough? Some people don't find any detriment to their life by putting other people at a high value. you seriously dont see a problem with feeling inferior and not good enough? First, insecurity is a normal human emotion. Second, and more importantly, you've tied it directly to getting laid. If you have low self esteem, don't practice feigning confidence so you can get women. Find stuff that makes you feel good and improves your life, like going to the gym, reading books, volunteering, etc. It's ironic that people claim "normal" people put women on a pedestal, when all the positive things those books describe can and arguably should be done without the thought of getting a mate crossing your mind. It's the PUA community that advocates self improvement to attain another person.
first of all, what is your point about insecurity being normal? so is fear of rejection but no body who practices self help is going to experience these social phobias if they put in the effort on getting this aspect of their lives handled
your second point is just not true on multiple levels. i've tied feeling "equal" and "good enough" to getting laid? thats just not true. and no body is practicing "feigning confidence" to get women. I have absolutely no idea where you are getting any of your ideas tbh.
i never use this term "PUA" seriously because its not even a relevant term. today's the community teaches you how to accept yourself the way you are and to feel good enough for anybody. most of what is preached isnt even necessarily relevant to the actual activity of approaching women but is only relevant to your core sense of self.
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Here are my problems with the PUA community: It scares women and paints men in a negative light.
Because some men use deception to lure women into bed it makes them more defensive. After the women get more defensive the men have to get more aggressive with their deception and it becomes an ugly cycle that just keeps getting worse. I'm sure you've all heard stories of women being paranoid about the intentions of men, even ones they've been with for a long time. This brings me to my other point.
This is a pretty big problem for men who don't want to stoop to that level in order to find women. It keeps perpetuating the stereotype that all men just use women for sex and that they are selfish assholes. This stereotype makes it more difficult for all men and for all women in regards to relationships. Because PUAs exist it forces women to second guess everything that a potential suitor says. Try thinking about it from the women's point of view. Better yet, how would you feel if your daughter's trust in men was ruined by sexual con artists? I know I'd be pretty pissed.
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On June 03 2011 03:01 ShcShc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 02:53 Jibba wrote:On June 03 2011 02:45 billyX333 wrote:On June 03 2011 02:40 Jibba wrote:On June 03 2011 02:35 Elegance wrote:
Problem with 90% of guys is that they put women at a high value (and more importantly, higher value than themselves). That's why they can't get girls or become providers or orbiters. Whatever you wanna call them. What is the "problem" you're trying to address? That they don't get laid enough? Some people don't find any detriment to their life by putting other people at a high value. you seriously dont see a problem with feeling inferior and not good enough? First, insecurity is a normal human emotion. Second, and more importantly, you've tied it directly to getting laid. If you have low self esteem, don't practice feigning confidence so you can get women. Find stuff that makes you feel good and improves your life, like going to the gym, reading books, volunteering, etc. It's ironic that people claim "normal" people put women on a pedestal, when all the positive things those books describe can and arguably should be done without the thought of getting a mate crossing your mind. It's the PUA community that advocates self improvement to attain another person. Here's my 2 cents. You're advocating them to get a life, which I agree with. Going to the gym, volunteer and getting hobbies is something everybody should do. But even if you do that, it doesn't mean you'l conquer your fears of approaching women. What is the best way to conquer those fears? Approach more women and see them eye-to-eye (same value as you are). At the beginning, you think: "Ah shit, I'l look stupid. I don't want to get embarrassed in front of my friends blah blah". That's where you see her too much of a false Godesse; you see her with too much value. At the beginning, it will definitely feel like fake confidence. As you practice more and more, you'l overcome it and it will become a real confidence. Eventually you see her eye-to-eye and just have fun. Its like being scared of heights. I'm deathly scared of heights and when I went skydiving, I was fucking scared to death. You try to be brave, but you can't help to be scared. As you progress, you become more habituated.
Its about realizing that your worst fears are essentially imagined. They're not real. And when you realize that the fears that you had before are imaginary, you become a better and more confident person...and you end up living a much better life.
couldnt have put it in better words myself
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On June 03 2011 03:01 ShcShc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 02:53 Jibba wrote:On June 03 2011 02:45 billyX333 wrote:On June 03 2011 02:40 Jibba wrote:On June 03 2011 02:35 Elegance wrote:
Problem with 90% of guys is that they put women at a high value (and more importantly, higher value than themselves). That's why they can't get girls or become providers or orbiters. Whatever you wanna call them. What is the "problem" you're trying to address? That they don't get laid enough? Some people don't find any detriment to their life by putting other people at a high value. you seriously dont see a problem with feeling inferior and not good enough? First, insecurity is a normal human emotion. Second, and more importantly, you've tied it directly to getting laid. If you have low self esteem, don't practice feigning confidence so you can get women. Find stuff that makes you feel good and improves your life, like going to the gym, reading books, volunteering, etc. It's ironic that people claim "normal" people put women on a pedestal, when all the positive things those books describe can and arguably should be done without the thought of getting a mate crossing your mind. It's the PUA community that advocates self improvement to attain another person. Here's my 2 cents. You're advocating them to get a life, which I agree with. Going to the gym, volunteer and getting hobbies is something everybody should do. But even if you do that, it doesn't mean you'l conquer your fears of approaching women. What is the best way to conquer those fears? Approach more women and see them eye-to-eye (same value as you are). At the beginning, you think: "Ah shit, I'l look stupid. I don't want to get embarrassed in front of my friends blah blah". That's where you see her too much of a false Godesse; you see her with too much value. At the beginning, it will definitely feel like fake confidence. As you practice more and more, you'l overcome it and it will become a real confidence. Eventually you see her eye-to-eye and just have fun. Its like being scared of heights. I'm deathly scared of heights and when I went skydiving, I was fucking scared to death. You try to be brave, but you can't help to be scared. As you progress, you become more habituated. Its about realizing that your worst fears are essentially imagined. They're not real. And when you realize that the fears that you had before are imaginary, you become a better and more confident person...and you end up living a much better life.
The problem is that you're using your interaction with other human beings as a tool for yourself, which imo is wrong, especially given that you are almost in all situations presenting the situation to the other person in such a light that suggests the purpose of the interaction is the exact opposite. It is dishonest and an immature approach to interaction with other people.
Yeah, a lot of you will tell me that its about improving yourself as a person by getting over your fears of talking to women, social anxiety, etc... but there are a lot more healthy ways to do this other than engaging in 'peacocking', willfully trying to manipulate the subconscious thoughts/feelings of women you meet in order to meet your ends of either getting laid or feeling desired by the opposite sex.
No matter which way you cut it, I am not at all convinced that PUA's are people interested in some morally acceptable form of self-improvement. The practice is obviously self-oriented and engages in exploitative methods. Even though the end result may be overcoming a fear, or improving your own level of confidence, there are unacceptable means, and other more wholesome ways to achieve the same ends. I'm sorry but I just don't see how a mature and rational person can justify 'playing the game' like that.
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I have to go to my class soon (would love to chat more about it), but I want to de-mystify "women are happier with someone of higher social status". [I think this was mentioned by TL scorch somewhere in this topic]
Its kind of true, but not really at the same time.
There was a post I loved back then that summarized everything so well. Its about TRUST.
Trust, Trust Trust.
I didn't post this, but I think its a fascinating read. The guy may be harsher than he should be, but there's a lot of truth in it. Its not about being abusive and taking women as objects, but to truly better YOU.
Trust is one of the most important things in being dominant.
If she does not trust you, she will not follow you. A man that has a healthy self esteem and posses self control can be trusted. If she feels that you can handle yourself, she will let herself be handled by you.
A MAN that handles himself has self respect and self confidence that he can face any problems coming his ways. A VERY STRONG MAN not only faces his own problems but problems of his loved ones.
Only when she can see that you handle her shit tests , and life’s shit tests , and other people’s shit tests , ONLY THEN she will trust you.
TRUST IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IN BEING DOMINANT.
Once she trusts you, you can do virtually everything with her. And by trust I mean, much deeper than “he wont cheat on me” kind of trust. That’s just beginning of it.
By exercising self control, whenever you do something, it’s precise, planned, thought through, organized, logical and managed action.
For example if you rush through kino escalation on first date and miscalibratedly “go for it”, you will break her trust.
If you get emotional and snap at her, you will break her trust. She will no longer think that you’re stoic and un-shakable.
If she throws you a HOOP and you jump through it, you will break her trust. No longer you have ability to remain un affected by outside world. She cannot rely on you now, because you bend backwards.
If you break down, emotionally, and “give up” she will no longer trust you that you can handle the world, life and perhaps a family one day.
If you get carried away with “love” and emotions, she will no longer trust you with other women. You’re easily manipulated. You can be emotionally dependant and will seek the next “fix”.
If you start asking for sex and sexual favors, she will no longer trust you that you can have your choices of women. Because, men with choices never have to ask. Even though this makes NO SENSE in relationship, because, you’re not supposed to have “choices” but from stand point of evolution and psychology it makes sense to her.
If you start “rewarding” her bad behavior she will no longer trust that you have self respect, she will no longer have respect for you either. A man that lost woman’s respect soon will lose that woman.
If you start telling your buddies about dirty little thing she does for you in bed, she will no longer trust that you will keep her good name in good standing. And now she looks like a “whore” to your friends, and “why are they all giving me dirty looks?”
SHE WILL WANT TO BE A GOOD WOMAN TO YOU because she TRUSTS you will do best for yourself, her and her children that you two *might* have one day.
A man with strong healthy emotions is hard to find. If you become that man who passes all her trust-tests, the kind of man who is NOT shaken by outside world, or inside turmoil in his own head, is the man who is reliable.
She can look up to this man for guidance and emotional stability. When her little emotions are screwing with her head, it’s this kind of man who can keep her in check.
Those are short-spoken truth I’ve heard my girlfriends say, my female friends say, my own mother say and few of my natural friends say.
“I trust you” is probably the most golden token of submission from her and accepting your lead dominant role. The SECOND you hear those words from your woman’s mouth is the second she started believing in you. She will believe in you in several ways:
She will, not always verbally, say “I trust that….
- I trust that….You will treat me great” – this is a loaded statement, because, “treating great” is keeping her in check. Women are emotional beings and often inner game turmoil makes them do irrational things and act stupid. This is biology. Sorry girls. AS A MAN, it is *YOUR JOB* …let me fucking repeat that, YOUR JOB AS A MAN is to handle those instabilities in your, hers and yours, world. YES she will act up. Yes she will throw you a curve ball, yes she will say one day “I am going to a club with some girlfriends” and you will dumb-fundedly say “ummm well ok….just …be safe” or maybe even “just don’t talk to any men!” WRONG! Why? Because, there is NOTHING you can do about this. You know what I usually say, “Tits! Baby, have a great night”
- I trust that….You will not hurt me and protect me” – probably the second most common reason why girls are subconsciously afraid to let the man lead. And I am talking about both, physical and emotional hurt here. She will trust you that you will not cheat on her and hurt her. She trusts you will not raise a hand on her or be abusive in other forms (remember, self control), she trusts that if someone were to disrespect her, you would stick up for her. This is Mystery 101 shit. Protection of loved ones. What the fuck I am telling you same thing again for?
- I trust that….You will not judge me!” FOCKING IMPORTANT! VERY! This is your KEY to kinky sex. She will watch how you talk about your exes. She will watch how you talk about girls with your buddies. She will ask you stories that will reveal how you think about women. She will tell you stories like “Jenni is such a slut. She is such a whore. I cannot believe she slept with that guy, and that guy, and whatever. I bet she has an STD”…and you dumb-fuck would happily say “oh yeah honey, she’s a skanky whore. Yeah I am glad you are not like that” WRONG! Now she knows that woman who’s promiscuous in your opinion is a whore. Now she knows that god forbid you’ll learn her past, she’ll be a whore too in your eyes. Well boys, she is not a whore. The right thing to say to that: “Baby, don’t talk about Jenni like that. Seriously. There is nothing wrong with women liking sex. I think she’s confident and just comparison shopping” Make a joke about it, but sound serious. This is where your true beliefs come in. If you really believe that that behavior is whorish, you need to rethink your beliefs. Because, if your buddy Bill told you about his friend Josh who’s fucking a new girl every other day, you’d call him a player and would probably want to know how he does this. Drop the double standard. And if you think that having multiple partners is “wrong” and unhealthy, you should still not judge people that do.
- I trust that….You will make me feel comfortable being myself”. Otherwise known as she will be ok with being a woman. This is probably a little caveat I missed and many other men miss for longest time. You need to embrace her womanhood. She will thank you for letting her be who she is. When she’s irrational she doesn’t want to reason and have logical discussion. When she wants sweet cuddling loving she’s being a woman. When she wants rough fast hardcore fucking, she’s being a woman. When she wants to have romantic picnic she’s being a woman. When she makes you dinner and puts candles on the table, two glasses of wine she’s being a woman. You love woman and what they do for you, themselves and people they care for. When it takes her 2 hours to get ready in the bathroom, account for it. You know it will take her that long. Planning is man’s job, remember? She is getting pretty FOR YOU, ASSHOLE! So don’t blame her for being late because “someone” had to spend 6 hours getting ready. Plan this into your arrival time, so you’re not late for the reservations. Thank her for being a woman. When she’s finally done getting ready, tell her she looks gorgeous, pretty or stunning. If she was going for “sexy” look then tell her she looks sexy. Come close to her, put your hands around her pull her in, whisper in her ear “baby, I already cannot wait till we get back, the things I will do to you” give her a kiss and pull away, take her hand and walk with her. When she made you dinner, eat with her, look into her eyes and tell her that it was great. Even if it wasn’t. She asked you “how was it?” you tell her it was great because she did it for you. When she’s washing the dishes after, come behind her, put your arms around her lean into her ear, kiss her neck and say “it turns me own when you are being such a good little girl” in low voice. Who knows, this might lead into makeout and passionate sex on the kitchen floor. When she’s being irrational, do not tell her she’s being irrational, do not tell her she’s acting stupid. Just let her vent. Give her a big hug, hold her close and tell her that “everything is going to be ok. Trust me, I will make it ok for you” RE-INFORCE that she can rely on you even if you physically cannot help her, she will still trust in your support.
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On June 03 2011 03:15 Reason.SC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 03:01 ShcShc wrote:On June 03 2011 02:53 Jibba wrote:On June 03 2011 02:45 billyX333 wrote:On June 03 2011 02:40 Jibba wrote:On June 03 2011 02:35 Elegance wrote:
Problem with 90% of guys is that they put women at a high value (and more importantly, higher value than themselves). That's why they can't get girls or become providers or orbiters. Whatever you wanna call them. What is the "problem" you're trying to address? That they don't get laid enough? Some people don't find any detriment to their life by putting other people at a high value. you seriously dont see a problem with feeling inferior and not good enough? First, insecurity is a normal human emotion. Second, and more importantly, you've tied it directly to getting laid. If you have low self esteem, don't practice feigning confidence so you can get women. Find stuff that makes you feel good and improves your life, like going to the gym, reading books, volunteering, etc. It's ironic that people claim "normal" people put women on a pedestal, when all the positive things those books describe can and arguably should be done without the thought of getting a mate crossing your mind. It's the PUA community that advocates self improvement to attain another person. Here's my 2 cents. You're advocating them to get a life, which I agree with. Going to the gym, volunteer and getting hobbies is something everybody should do. But even if you do that, it doesn't mean you'l conquer your fears of approaching women. What is the best way to conquer those fears? Approach more women and see them eye-to-eye (same value as you are). At the beginning, you think: "Ah shit, I'l look stupid. I don't want to get embarrassed in front of my friends blah blah". That's where you see her too much of a false Godesse; you see her with too much value. At the beginning, it will definitely feel like fake confidence. As you practice more and more, you'l overcome it and it will become a real confidence. Eventually you see her eye-to-eye and just have fun. Its like being scared of heights. I'm deathly scared of heights and when I went skydiving, I was fucking scared to death. You try to be brave, but you can't help to be scared. As you progress, you become more habituated. Its about realizing that your worst fears are essentially imagined. They're not real. And when you realize that the fears that you had before are imaginary, you become a better and more confident person...and you end up living a much better life. The problem is that you're using your interaction with other human beings as a tool for yourself, which imo is wrong, especially given that you are almost in all situations presenting the situation to the other person in such a light that suggests the purpose of the interaction is the exact opposite. It is dishonest and an immature approach to interaction with other people. Yeah, a lot of you will tell me that its about improving yourself as a person by getting over your fears of talking to women, social anxiety, etc... but there are a lot more healthy ways to do this other than engaging in 'peacocking', willfully trying to manipulate the subconscious thoughts/feelings of women you meet in order to meet your ends of either getting laid or feeling desired by the opposite sex. No matter which way you cut it, I am not at all convinced that PUA's are people interested in some morally acceptable form of self-improvement. The practice is obviously self-oriented and engages in exploitative methods. Even though the end result may be overcoming a fear, or improving your own level of confidence, there are unacceptable means, and other more wholesome ways to achieve the same ends. I'm sorry but I just don't see how a mature and rational person can justify 'playing the game' like that.
Not all PUA is about manipulating others. In anycase it has mostly to do with yourself.
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On June 03 2011 00:01 whiteguycash wrote:
I spend a short time hanging out in one of these forums shortly after Neil released his book. From my experience, there are quite a few delusional folks in those forums that view women as little more than a jigsaw puzzle or a combination lock, which is quite far from reality.
Many of the men in these communities reek of desperation, lack of validation and issues with self-acceptance. Some of these communities, however, have been able to support eachother in helping build eachother up, and develop that othewise non-existant confidence.
People are combination locks. To be percise, people are organic robots, as are all other forms of life. See the recent thread on the subject. As such, the premise of women being a subject of gameplay is valid.
And in general, pickup has EXCELLENT gameplay. It is simply one of the best games to play. It combines the basic sex drive that usually tends to be resolved in a primitive undynamic manner(masturbation/regular sex partner), and gives it a whole new boost with the variety of women and mechanics necessary to be employed. Make no mistake, pickup takes both good gamesense, planning, and micro ability to manage the kino, body language, voice, and content of activities. For the intelligent demanding starcraft player especially, it is a suitable challenge given the multitude of paradigms necessary to master. Aswell as the graphics junkies, as pickup boasts the latest and best HD rendering your eyes can parse.
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On June 03 2011 03:15 Reason.SC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 03:01 ShcShc wrote:On June 03 2011 02:53 Jibba wrote:On June 03 2011 02:45 billyX333 wrote:On June 03 2011 02:40 Jibba wrote:On June 03 2011 02:35 Elegance wrote:
Problem with 90% of guys is that they put women at a high value (and more importantly, higher value than themselves). That's why they can't get girls or become providers or orbiters. Whatever you wanna call them. What is the "problem" you're trying to address? That they don't get laid enough? Some people don't find any detriment to their life by putting other people at a high value. you seriously dont see a problem with feeling inferior and not good enough? First, insecurity is a normal human emotion. Second, and more importantly, you've tied it directly to getting laid. If you have low self esteem, don't practice feigning confidence so you can get women. Find stuff that makes you feel good and improves your life, like going to the gym, reading books, volunteering, etc. It's ironic that people claim "normal" people put women on a pedestal, when all the positive things those books describe can and arguably should be done without the thought of getting a mate crossing your mind. It's the PUA community that advocates self improvement to attain another person. Here's my 2 cents. You're advocating them to get a life, which I agree with. Going to the gym, volunteer and getting hobbies is something everybody should do. But even if you do that, it doesn't mean you'l conquer your fears of approaching women. What is the best way to conquer those fears? Approach more women and see them eye-to-eye (same value as you are). At the beginning, you think: "Ah shit, I'l look stupid. I don't want to get embarrassed in front of my friends blah blah". That's where you see her too much of a false Godesse; you see her with too much value. At the beginning, it will definitely feel like fake confidence. As you practice more and more, you'l overcome it and it will become a real confidence. Eventually you see her eye-to-eye and just have fun. Its like being scared of heights. I'm deathly scared of heights and when I went skydiving, I was fucking scared to death. You try to be brave, but you can't help to be scared. As you progress, you become more habituated. Its about realizing that your worst fears are essentially imagined. They're not real. And when you realize that the fears that you had before are imaginary, you become a better and more confident person...and you end up living a much better life. The problem is that you're using your interaction with other human beings as a tool for yourself, which imo is wrong, especially given that you are almost in all situations presenting the situation to the other person in such a light that suggests the purpose of the interaction is the exact opposite. It is dishonest and an immature approach to interaction with other people. Yeah, a lot of you will tell me that its about improving yourself as a person by getting over your fears of talking to women, social anxiety, etc... but there are a lot more healthy ways to do this other than engaging in 'peacocking', willfully trying to manipulate the subconscious thoughts/feelings of women you meet in order to meet your ends of either getting laid or feeling desired by the opposite sex. No matter which way you cut it, I am not at all convinced that PUA's are people interested in some morally acceptable form of self-improvement. The practice is obviously self-oriented and engages in exploitative methods. Even though the end result may be overcoming a fear, or improving your own level of confidence, there are unacceptable means, and other more wholesome ways to achieve the same ends. I'm sorry but I just don't see how a mature and rational person can justify 'playing the game' like that.
you're talking about deceiving people and peacocking. what universe do you live on? i thought that fad already died out. pick up isnt even pick up anymore. its evolved into just general "be confident" "have fun socializing with new people" "love yourself" "express yourself and who you are truly" "be happy always"
what you think of when you think about the community, i bet this is what you're thinking of: + Show Spoiler +
when i think of the community, i think of laughing, socializing, having fun and partying+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF_6Xqspn-o
this guy fucking wears a toy reindeer on his groin. is this what you think of as tactics and techniques? no. it isnt. thats just who he is and hes having fun with it. this is what I think of when i think of the community
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On June 03 2011 03:15 ShcShc wrote:I have to go to my class soon (would love to chat more about it), but I want to de-mystify "women are happier with someone of higher social status". [I think this was mentioned by TL scorch somewhere in this topic] Its kind of true, but not really at the same time. There was a post I loved back then that summarized everything so well. Its about TRUST. Trust, Trust Trust.I didn't post this, but I think its a fascinating read. The guy may be harsher than he should be, but there's a lot of truth in it. Its not about being abusive and taking women as objects, but to truly better YOU. Show nested quote + Trust is one of the most important things in being dominant.
If she does not trust you, she will not follow you. A man that has a healthy self esteem and posses self control can be trusted. If she feels that you can handle yourself, she will let herself be handled by you.
A MAN that handles himself has self respect and self confidence that he can face any problems coming his ways. A VERY STRONG MAN not only faces his own problems but problems of his loved ones.
Only when she can see that you handle her shit tests , and life’s shit tests , and other people’s shit tests , ONLY THEN she will trust you.
TRUST IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IN BEING DOMINANT.
Once she trusts you, you can do virtually everything with her. And by trust I mean, much deeper than “he wont cheat on me” kind of trust. That’s just beginning of it.
By exercising self control, whenever you do something, it’s precise, planned, thought through, organized, logical and managed action.
For example if you rush through kino escalation on first date and miscalibratedly “go for it”, you will break her trust.
If you get emotional and snap at her, you will break her trust. She will no longer think that you’re stoic and un-shakable.
If she throws you a HOOP and you jump through it, you will break her trust. No longer you have ability to remain un affected by outside world. She cannot rely on you now, because you bend backwards.
If you break down, emotionally, and “give up” she will no longer trust you that you can handle the world, life and perhaps a family one day.
If you get carried away with “love” and emotions, she will no longer trust you with other women. You’re easily manipulated. You can be emotionally dependant and will seek the next “fix”.
If you start asking for sex and sexual favors, she will no longer trust you that you can have your choices of women. Because, men with choices never have to ask. Even though this makes NO SENSE in relationship, because, you’re not supposed to have “choices” but from stand point of evolution and psychology it makes sense to her.
If you start “rewarding” her bad behavior she will no longer trust that you have self respect, she will no longer have respect for you either. A man that lost woman’s respect soon will lose that woman.
If you start telling your buddies about dirty little thing she does for you in bed, she will no longer trust that you will keep her good name in good standing. And now she looks like a “whore” to your friends, and “why are they all giving me dirty looks?”
SHE WILL WANT TO BE A GOOD WOMAN TO YOU because she TRUSTS you will do best for yourself, her and her children that you two *might* have one day.
A man with strong healthy emotions is hard to find. If you become that man who passes all her trust-tests, the kind of man who is NOT shaken by outside world, or inside turmoil in his own head, is the man who is reliable.
She can look up to this man for guidance and emotional stability. When her little emotions are screwing with her head, it’s this kind of man who can keep her in check.
Those are short-spoken truth I’ve heard my girlfriends say, my female friends say, my own mother say and few of my natural friends say.
“I trust you” is probably the most golden token of submission from her and accepting your lead dominant role. The SECOND you hear those words from your woman’s mouth is the second she started believing in you. She will believe in you in several ways:
She will, not always verbally, say “I trust that….
- I trust that….You will treat me great” – this is a loaded statement, because, “treating great” is keeping her in check. Women are emotional beings and often inner game turmoil makes them do irrational things and act stupid. This is biology. Sorry girls. AS A MAN, it is *YOUR JOB* …let me fucking repeat that, YOUR JOB AS A MAN is to handle those instabilities in your, hers and yours, world. YES she will act up. Yes she will throw you a curve ball, yes she will say one day “I am going to a club with some girlfriends” and you will dumb-fundedly say “ummm well ok….just …be safe” or maybe even “just don’t talk to any men!” WRONG! Why? Because, there is NOTHING you can do about this. You know what I usually say, “Tits! Baby, have a great night”
- I trust that….You will not hurt me and protect me” – probably the second most common reason why girls are subconsciously afraid to let the man lead. And I am talking about both, physical and emotional hurt here. She will trust you that you will not cheat on her and hurt her. She trusts you will not raise a hand on her or be abusive in other forms (remember, self control), she trusts that if someone were to disrespect her, you would stick up for her. This is Mystery 101 shit. Protection of loved ones. What the fuck I am telling you same thing again for?
- I trust that….You will not judge me!” FOCKING IMPORTANT! VERY! This is your KEY to kinky sex. She will watch how you talk about your exes. She will watch how you talk about girls with your buddies. She will ask you stories that will reveal how you think about women. She will tell you stories like “Jenni is such a slut. She is such a whore. I cannot believe she slept with that guy, and that guy, and whatever. I bet she has an STD”…and you dumb-fuck would happily say “oh yeah honey, she’s a skanky whore. Yeah I am glad you are not like that” WRONG! Now she knows that woman who’s promiscuous in your opinion is a whore. Now she knows that god forbid you’ll learn her past, she’ll be a whore too in your eyes. Well boys, she is not a whore. The right thing to say to that: “Baby, don’t talk about Jenni like that. Seriously. There is nothing wrong with women liking sex. I think she’s confident and just comparison shopping” Make a joke about it, but sound serious. This is where your true beliefs come in. If you really believe that that behavior is whorish, you need to rethink your beliefs. Because, if your buddy Bill told you about his friend Josh who’s fucking a new girl every other day, you’d call him a player and would probably want to know how he does this. Drop the double standard. And if you think that having multiple partners is “wrong” and unhealthy, you should still not judge people that do.
- I trust that….You will make me feel comfortable being myself”. Otherwise known as she will be ok with being a woman. This is probably a little caveat I missed and many other men miss for longest time. You need to embrace her womanhood. She will thank you for letting her be who she is. When she’s irrational she doesn’t want to reason and have logical discussion. When she wants sweet cuddling loving she’s being a woman. When she wants rough fast hardcore fucking, she’s being a woman. When she wants to have romantic picnic she’s being a woman. When she makes you dinner and puts candles on the table, two glasses of wine she’s being a woman. You love woman and what they do for you, themselves and people they care for. When it takes her 2 hours to get ready in the bathroom, account for it. You know it will take her that long. Planning is man’s job, remember? She is getting pretty FOR YOU, ASSHOLE! So don’t blame her for being late because “someone” had to spend 6 hours getting ready. Plan this into your arrival time, so you’re not late for the reservations. Thank her for being a woman. When she’s finally done getting ready, tell her she looks gorgeous, pretty or stunning. If she was going for “sexy” look then tell her she looks sexy. Come close to her, put your hands around her pull her in, whisper in her ear “baby, I already cannot wait till we get back, the things I will do to you” give her a kiss and pull away, take her hand and walk with her. When she made you dinner, eat with her, look into her eyes and tell her that it was great. Even if it wasn’t. She asked you “how was it?” you tell her it was great because she did it for you. When she’s washing the dishes after, come behind her, put your arms around her lean into her ear, kiss her neck and say “it turns me own when you are being such a good little girl” in low voice. Who knows, this might lead into makeout and passionate sex on the kitchen floor. When she’s being irrational, do not tell her she’s being irrational, do not tell her she’s acting stupid. Just let her vent. Give her a big hug, hold her close and tell her that “everything is going to be ok. Trust me, I will make it ok for you” RE-INFORCE that she can rely on you even if you physically cannot help her, she will still trust in your support.
Agreed for about 5 sentences.
Then he just started rambling about PUA bullshit.
Women who are worth your time aren't putting up hoops as traps, they're not going to abandon you because you break down emotionally, they're not going to abandon you because you snap and yell at them, and your job certainly isn't to "keep her in check"
What the fuck is this shit man! Billy Joel gives better advice about trust as far as I'm concerned.
EDIT: Plus, do you really want a girl who is gabbing to you about how slutty some other girl is? Ugh, if your PUA skills and "keeping her in check" abilities are failing so badly that your girlfriend is rambling about stupid gossip to you, you're obviously do it wrong.
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I see posts in this thread stating that the PUA community is dedicated to helping men overcome their fear of talking to women, but that is not the stereotype that I associate with PUAs. My image of a PUA is a man who sets out to use psychological tools with the express intention of finding women to have sex with immediately, not just chatting them up because it's something he had difficulty with in the past. (There is also an subtext here about how these men likewise regard the women they are picking up as sex objects, nothing more. "You play the game, you take her back to your place, you score, you kick her out" or something)
Stereotypes are what they are, but they come into being for a reason, whether it's a good or bad reason. Why did this stereotype come to be? How can it be demonstrated that the PUA community greatly differs from its stereotype?
This doesn't affect me very much, as my wife and I are quite happy to have exited the dating game, but if my distaste for the PUA community is misplaced, I want to know.
edit: post below this one mentions the piece of jargon "f-close," which by its very existence demonstrates that there is definitely a fascination in the PUA community with sex-on-first-meeting.
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On June 03 2011 03:23 billyX333 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 03:15 Reason.SC2 wrote:On June 03 2011 03:01 ShcShc wrote:On June 03 2011 02:53 Jibba wrote:On June 03 2011 02:45 billyX333 wrote:On June 03 2011 02:40 Jibba wrote:On June 03 2011 02:35 Elegance wrote:
Problem with 90% of guys is that they put women at a high value (and more importantly, higher value than themselves). That's why they can't get girls or become providers or orbiters. Whatever you wanna call them. What is the "problem" you're trying to address? That they don't get laid enough? Some people don't find any detriment to their life by putting other people at a high value. you seriously dont see a problem with feeling inferior and not good enough? First, insecurity is a normal human emotion. Second, and more importantly, you've tied it directly to getting laid. If you have low self esteem, don't practice feigning confidence so you can get women. Find stuff that makes you feel good and improves your life, like going to the gym, reading books, volunteering, etc. It's ironic that people claim "normal" people put women on a pedestal, when all the positive things those books describe can and arguably should be done without the thought of getting a mate crossing your mind. It's the PUA community that advocates self improvement to attain another person. Here's my 2 cents. You're advocating them to get a life, which I agree with. Going to the gym, volunteer and getting hobbies is something everybody should do. But even if you do that, it doesn't mean you'l conquer your fears of approaching women. What is the best way to conquer those fears? Approach more women and see them eye-to-eye (same value as you are). At the beginning, you think: "Ah shit, I'l look stupid. I don't want to get embarrassed in front of my friends blah blah". That's where you see her too much of a false Godesse; you see her with too much value. At the beginning, it will definitely feel like fake confidence. As you practice more and more, you'l overcome it and it will become a real confidence. Eventually you see her eye-to-eye and just have fun. Its like being scared of heights. I'm deathly scared of heights and when I went skydiving, I was fucking scared to death. You try to be brave, but you can't help to be scared. As you progress, you become more habituated. Its about realizing that your worst fears are essentially imagined. They're not real. And when you realize that the fears that you had before are imaginary, you become a better and more confident person...and you end up living a much better life. The problem is that you're using your interaction with other human beings as a tool for yourself, which imo is wrong, especially given that you are almost in all situations presenting the situation to the other person in such a light that suggests the purpose of the interaction is the exact opposite. It is dishonest and an immature approach to interaction with other people. Yeah, a lot of you will tell me that its about improving yourself as a person by getting over your fears of talking to women, social anxiety, etc... but there are a lot more healthy ways to do this other than engaging in 'peacocking', willfully trying to manipulate the subconscious thoughts/feelings of women you meet in order to meet your ends of either getting laid or feeling desired by the opposite sex. No matter which way you cut it, I am not at all convinced that PUA's are people interested in some morally acceptable form of self-improvement. The practice is obviously self-oriented and engages in exploitative methods. Even though the end result may be overcoming a fear, or improving your own level of confidence, there are unacceptable means, and other more wholesome ways to achieve the same ends. I'm sorry but I just don't see how a mature and rational person can justify 'playing the game' like that. you're talking about deceiving people and peacocking. what universe do you live on? i thought that fad already died out. pick up isnt even pick up anymore. its evolved into just general "be confident" "have fun socializing with new people" "love yourself" "express yourself and who you are truly" "be happy always" what you think of when you think about the community, i bet this is what you're thinking of: + Show Spoiler +when i think of the community, i think of laughing, socializing, having fun and partying + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF_6Xqspn-o
this guy fucking wears a toy reindeer on his groin. is this what you think of as tactics and techniques? no. it isnt. thats just who he is and hes having fun with it. this is what I think of when i think of the community The inner game, aka "natural" methodology you are talking about has deep problems. you see, it started as a sort of new-age post-PUA movement, with former mystery method & ross jeffries etc followers trying to branch out and employing a different way of getting women. Now the naturals CONSCIOUSLY rejected practical methodology, substituting it with tthe inner game/vibe/egoless approach. Now those guys didnt understand it, but they in fact didnt reject the methodology of the technical outer game approach, they only forgot about it. Subconsciously they kept employing the same techniques. And that led to the failure of its advancement. You see, the newcomers, whom the now inner game/vibe/egoless guys tried to teach, struggled to grasp their conscepts. While what they were taught sounded good in theory, they couldnt employ it to get numbers and f-closes. That was the beginning of the end. While the large community of inner game freaks keeps hanging out at boards likes sosuave, rsdn, etc and discussing the abstract philosophical concepts, their practical approaches have stagnated. The outer game community keeps innovating game, successfully teaching newcomers to the field with PRACTICAL skills, moving the ball forward.
And so it is, that as in other fields in life, the guys who just have "fun", forget about methodology, and concentrate on attitude instead of substance, succeed only in deluding themselves in their success, as that is all activity is about.
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On June 03 2011 03:20 xarthaz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 00:01 whiteguycash wrote:
I spend a short time hanging out in one of these forums shortly after Neil released his book. From my experience, there are quite a few delusional folks in those forums that view women as little more than a jigsaw puzzle or a combination lock, which is quite far from reality.
Many of the men in these communities reek of desperation, lack of validation and issues with self-acceptance. Some of these communities, however, have been able to support eachother in helping build eachother up, and develop that othewise non-existant confidence. People are combination locks. To be percise, people are organic robots, as are all other forms of life. See the recent thread on the subject. As such, the premise of women being a subject of gameplay is valid. + Show Spoiler +And in general, pickup has EXCELLENT gameplay. It is simply one of the best games to play. It combines the basic sex drive that usually tends to be resolved in a primitive undynamic manner(masturbation/regular sex partner), and gives it a whole new boost with the variety of women and mechanics necessary to be employed. Make no mistake, pickup takes both good gamesense, planning, and micro ability to manage the kino, body language, voice, and content of activities. For the intelligent demanding starcraft player especially, it is a suitable challenge given the multitude of paradigms necessary to master. Aswell as the graphics junkies, as pickup boasts the latest and best HD rendering your eyes can parse.
Do you regard yourself as a combination lock? Do you want other people to regard you as a combination lock?
Is it different regarding others as a puzzle to be solved or a vending machine, than it is looking at yourself this way?
I don't personally look at myself as a vending machine that can be manipulated by others into getting what they want from me, and I likewise don't look at others in this way either. I'm suspicious that people who are okay with treating other people as easily manipulated by psychology don't look at themselves in the same way.
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On June 03 2011 03:43 Delerium wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 03:20 xarthaz wrote:On June 03 2011 00:01 whiteguycash wrote:
I spend a short time hanging out in one of these forums shortly after Neil released his book. From my experience, there are quite a few delusional folks in those forums that view women as little more than a jigsaw puzzle or a combination lock, which is quite far from reality.
Many of the men in these communities reek of desperation, lack of validation and issues with self-acceptance. Some of these communities, however, have been able to support eachother in helping build eachother up, and develop that othewise non-existant confidence. People are combination locks. To be percise, people are organic robots, as are all other forms of life. See the recent thread on the subject. As such, the premise of women being a subject of gameplay is valid. + Show Spoiler +And in general, pickup has EXCELLENT gameplay. It is simply one of the best games to play. It combines the basic sex drive that usually tends to be resolved in a primitive undynamic manner(masturbation/regular sex partner), and gives it a whole new boost with the variety of women and mechanics necessary to be employed. Make no mistake, pickup takes both good gamesense, planning, and micro ability to manage the kino, body language, voice, and content of activities. For the intelligent demanding starcraft player especially, it is a suitable challenge given the multitude of paradigms necessary to master. Aswell as the graphics junkies, as pickup boasts the latest and best HD rendering your eyes can parse. Do you regard yourself as a combination lock? Do you want other people to regard you as a combination lock? Is it different regarding others as a puzzle to be solved or a vending machine, than it is looking at yourself this way? I don't personally look at myself as a vending machine that can be manipulated by others into getting what they want from me, and I likewise don't look at others in this way either. I'm suspicious that people who are okay with treating other people as easily manipulated by psychology don't look at themselves in the same way. Then your self observations have been somewhat shallow. It is beyond doubt that combinatorical methodologies for interpersonal manipulation exist. The whole premise of them NOT existing rests on then onsensical ideas of religious dogma or mysticist rejection of physicalism. Hence, my conclusions are strictly correct, and my argumentation follows.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sspp4owv69k/TcsQc4aocXI/AAAAAAAAARg/fzpOkvgPabE/s1600/mystery1.jpg)
