EPTLike when MC and other KR players lost in the TSL, most people are thinking: "Oh he only lost because of lag". which kinda invalidates their opponents and the tournament result..
EG launch $10,000 Master's Cup Series League - Page 46
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TheGreenBee
64 Posts
Like when MC and other KR players lost in the TSL, most people are thinking: "Oh he only lost because of lag". which kinda invalidates their opponents and the tournament result.. | ||
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apox
Australia19 Posts
If we just look at Liquid's main argument: FAIRNESS I think everyone agrees that the 50/50 server rule would be the best approach to do compared to only NA (if it's BO1 then there always will be drama as it was in WC3). That is if we just look at the ping issue and not how convenient/inconvenient it would be for the players or organizers to comply with this rule. Now let's look at EG's side: CONVENIENCE for the MAJORITY What I read here from Idra and InControl it is more about that it wouldn't be fair for the other 7 teams, who are the vast majority of the league, to get stressed about which server to play and that implies unfair conditions for one player if it just concerns one team and only 3 players overall. And here I don't agree with this argument. If we just look at the numbers there are no unfair conditions, at least not for the majority. There are 8 teams who have to play 7 games during the regular group stage and as Jinro already said they even agreed to just use 1 Korean player per game. That means that every week out of possible 16 to 20 individual matches (I think it's 3x1v1 and 1x2v2 + an ace match) there are just 1 or 2 'unfair' matches assuming TL is using the Korean player for 1x1v1 and the ace or 2v2 match (this way there is less drama but it's still somehow fair). That is 5% / 12.5% of all matches. Furthermore over all 7 clanwars a team has to play during the regular season every team only will experience that once and also only 1 or max 3 players from each team (assuming the Korean player plays the 2v2). So it's 1 or 2 individual series out of 28 to 35 games (without playoffs). That is 3 - 7% of all their games. For me that doesn't look very unfair or inconvenient and definitely not for the 'majority' of teams and players. So overall this issue will always be there until Blizzard is doing something in this matter but for this particular league and under these circumstances it would be most fair to go with TL here. Also I'm pretty sure that people like Idra or InControl can do this simple math themselves and would agree that this isn't about inconvenient conditions for the majority, so I assume that there is something else behind all the commotion here. Just my two cents from an unbiased point of view and no relations to any team. ***EDIT*** We can go even further to increase the 'convenience' factor. What if TL is just allowed to use one Korean for an individual series or is not allowed to play in the 2v2? At least the first rule was already used in the early WC3 tournament scene where there was always a matter with the bad Chinese connections (so similar to what we have now with Korea). There are so many ways to make the competition better than it is now without compromising to much convenience. Just my two cents! | ||
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FXOpen
Australia1844 Posts
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Ighox
Norway580 Posts
On May 03 2011 17:20 TheGreenBee wrote: I feel like even if TL is right in this case, having KR players compete in foreign tournaments is not a good idea given the current state of b.net. Like when MC and other KR players lost in the TSL, most people are thinking: "Oh he only lost because of lag". which kinda invalidates their opponents and the tournament result.. MC is like the only case where that wasn't true because he was in Europe when he played his last match, but yes I think most people realize that it's not fair for the koreans. On May 03 2011 17:21 apox wrote: From my perspective there is something more behind it then just 'convenience' or 'fairness'. If the solution (Liquid's solution) causes inconvenience for anyone else then it just comes down to if the solution causes more inconvenience than the original plan. If it does, or even if you're not sure what the consequences would be I can see why they chose what they did. If it causes it for more than 3 players there's no real reason to accomodate the 3 Liquid players over the other people, no matter how much I'd like to see Jinro in the tournament. (But can't everyone just blame Blizzard instead? In BW you could even play against koreans from europe.) | ||
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hakhu
Germany43 Posts
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Flowjo
United States928 Posts
On May 03 2011 17:02 Nifel wrote: This is a little bit out of context, but the varying results between the GSL World Cup and TSL/NASL are not just because of lag. From a purely statistical point of view, I got the impression that the foreign players that were sent to participate in the World Cup were *not* the best foreign players. While all excellent players, their results have been similar (i.e. not overly impressive) in recent foreign tournaments as well. Obviously raw statistics aren't the only thing to look at, but I lack enough knowledge of the game to make any educated guesses based on something like gameplay. Anyway, at the end of the day lag is still a factor and the Korean scene is, without a shade of doubt, at least two steps ahead of the foreign scene on the whole. But the World Cup results are not a 100% accurate representation of the skill gap. That's all I'm saying. FXO? GSL Code A? IEM? Dreamhack (jk just MC rofl)? It's not 100% accurate but still, I feel that in an offline event like the GSL, I feel that most foreigners could not match up. A couple comes to mind Idra, Kas, Morrow, naniwa, obv way more but all I can think of at the moment. | ||
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Citrone
Germany14 Posts
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oldahe
Austria534 Posts
In order to bring some clarity into the discussion I would like to offer a mathematical representation of the problem. Setting that clear once and for all, we could continiue our discourse on a more detached and scientific level. As a first step we need to agree on the values of the main variabels going into the calculation. So I would like to ask experienced players to fill this out. The brackets next to the server name are filled out with the lag/ping. EU (...) vs EU (...) EU (...) vs NA (...) EU (...) vs KOR (...) NA (...) vs NA (...) NA (...) vs KOR (...) KOR (...) vs KOR (...) Thank you. | ||
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Mitchlew
Australia428 Posts
Jinro sounds a tad hypocritical. User was temp banned for this post for not reading the topic. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10596 Posts
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Apocalyte
United States13 Posts
Epic Drama /wink /wink | ||
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Nifel
706 Posts
On May 03 2011 18:11 Flowjo wrote: FXO? GSL Code A? IEM? Dreamhack (jk just MC rofl)? It's not 100% accurate but still, I feel that in an offline event like the GSL, I feel that most foreigners could not match up. A couple comes to mind Idra, Kas, Morrow, naniwa, obv way more but all I can think of at the moment. There's a generation shift in the foreign scene the way I see it. The majority of the players in, for example, the World Cup, IEM and DH invitational saw good results last year, but haven't been at the top of their game recently (there are some exceptions like IdrA who seems to be better than ever). At the same time comparatively new names like HasuObs, Spanishiwa and Thorzain are stepping up while Naniwa, Nerchio and Kas are finally getting the recognition they deserve. Bet yes, I agree that foreigners can't match up. Not only in terms of raw skill but many foreigners seem to choke when it comes to performing on a stage, in front of an audience. Stage experience is also a factor and in that regard few come close to the Koreans. But I'm derailing this now. I'll just say that I love the initiative by EG. Also happy to see DjWheat casting. He's been performing amazingly lately. | ||
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TheButtonmen
Canada1401 Posts
On May 03 2011 16:56 Atlas_550 wrote: I'm going to be completely honest here. But this is really uncalled for. The only reason I am bring it up is because no one else even bothered to mention it in the remaining 25 pages. Everyone has a right to think and the poster you are quoting is taking the text he is given and trying to make an understanding of it. Insulting someone, telling someone to not do something and basically being an ass about it really is dumb. It's fine I understand this is probably a pretty heated issue for them and having random people come onto their site and use some pretty harsh language to give their opinions on a matter which doesn't personally involve them is probably pretty aggravating. Props to Liquid_Jinro though for his responses in this thread though and for taking the time to clarify himself when I misunderstood what he was trying to say. | ||
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Mactator
109 Posts
On May 03 2011 18:50 oldahe wrote: Dear Friends, In order to bring some clarity into the discussion I would like to offer a mathematical representation of the problem. Setting that clear once and for all, we could continiue our discourse on a more detached and scientific level. As a first step we need to agree on the values of the main variabels going into the calculation. So I would like to ask experienced players to fill this out. The brackets next to the server name are filled out with the lag/ping. EU (...) vs EU (...) EU (...) vs NA (...) EU (...) vs KOR (...) NA (...) vs NA (...) NA (...) vs KOR (...) KOR (...) vs KOR (...) Thank you. I agree with this approach although the ideal situation is lag free play. This is a technical issue that can only be solved by Blizzard as is also stated elsewhere. The only true solution that will work in the long run will be to convince Blizzard to fix this issue. They seem quite interested in professional gaming so I no see no reason why they shouldn't accommodate to this and make a global gaming scene possible. At least the community should continue to make Blizzard aware of this issue by writing on their homepage and mentioning how great it would be if europeans, americans and asians could play lagfree tournaments against each other. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On May 03 2011 16:06 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: On May 03 2011 14:49 IdrA wrote: na to eu is playable, na to korea is not. just about any competitive player who has played across both will tell you that. the goal is producing a non-asian team league, as that is something that can be done well given the current state of battle.net. a truly international online league is not feasible right now. compare tsl and nasl results to the gsl world cup results. players playing from korea on foreign server's results are meaningless. including that kind of situation in a tournament is silly. liquid received an invitation because they are clearly one of the top non korean teams. but accommodating their choice to have players in korea lowers the quality of the league, which is unacceptable. I agree that if we don't wan to play in these tournaments that are meant to be for non-Asian teams that we should just decline it, and we did. So we're on one line there. Here is my issue with your posts.
Again; I think everyone can agree that we can just decline invites that aren't accommodating an equal playing field at an international level. This is nothing new, but you are saying a lot of inaccurate things to go with it. This is starting to look less like a a transparent discussion about future leagues and more like a smear-campaign against EG. Why should the viewers get all these negative vibes? I understand that Liquid wanted the system to be optimal for themselves but failed to procure the accommodation. Now Tyler, Nazgul and Jinro are doing their best to show EG's tournament as sub-par, isolationist and poorly organized. The poor choice of words by Tyler and Jinro did not help either. As a viewer, I'd like to pitch in that I'd prefer to see the best quality of games (and yes, this includes lag-free) with the best available players. I've said it before in the thread, if Liquid wants to participate, they could also find sponsors to support their flights to the US. If not, I'm sad to see Liquid not participate, but I'm still going to enjoy the good games between other teams. And I would rather discuss the awesome 2v2 possibilities in this league than read more about Liquid being left out. It won't change, and future leagues should be discussed in other threads. Edit: TLDR: Can we please get a thread where we can discuss the new league, ie. a thread without a war of words between EG and Liquid. | ||
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ati
United States9 Posts
On May 03 2011 13:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I dunno, BO1 is definitely less easy than Bo3. Bo3 I would just do 1 game each then random or NA favored (its fine that they have some kind of home court advantage IMO). If only 1 player plays from KR, then he has to play a BO1 (first or second) and there is no good solution, you could coin flip, or just play on NA, or somehow distribute it, but anything else then NA would put the other team at a disadvantage. If >=2 players from KR play (in the series) then one of the first to games is played on KR. CONS: - 2v2, Ace match are always on NA. - If only one player from KR plays, there is a disadvantage. Yeah, I understand that this is not perfect, since to avoid a disadvantage you would want TL to play with 2 KR players all the time, and you would 'exclude' them from the ace match (they still could play it, which would actually give them a slight advantage for the first 3 games, but a disadvantage for the ace game) The bigger issue is to cover all the possibilities in general, since the rules above only handle a MU with one team NA only, and the other team half in KR. but coming up with "good" general solution is not as easy, and as Nazgul pointed out should be simply discussed by the team leaders. The biggest factor here is that TL asked for these changes after they got the invite, leaving very little time for negotiating in first place, and changing rules after they are already set up will always result in problems. How much time do you have till next event? A lot. some1 should read through this thread and write down all the ideas for possible solution, and then team leaders have a headstart. | ||
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dtz
5834 Posts
On May 03 2011 18:06 hakhu wrote: Seems to me quite some people chose convenience over fairness. If eSports really wants to be accepted as a professional sport that just doesn't fly. Convenience and fairness are very iffy terms in this case imo. What some people perceive as inconvenience of having to play KR-NA can be deemed as unfairness by the other team. Just because one team needing to play in KR, the other 6 NA-EU teams need to deal with the hassle of playing on KR server which is sub optimal for training and real-game performance ( according to IdrA) because of the significant delay. It's really a tough spot imo. Having Liquid in the tournament ( and their proposed rule) will make the tournament haunted with the lag banters that plagued TSL as well as frustrating experience for a lot of players. That is unfair for the tournament ( TSL is still the best tournament ever though don't get me wrong. But the lag "excuses" were really frustrating for everyone and you can't deny they exist whether or not they influence the results) Not having Liquid is unfair as well because it discriminates against SC2 being a global sport and penalizes players in Korea who are detached from the Western Scene | ||
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Ezze
Canada934 Posts
Also, I never knew xeris was such a douchebag. Isn't he behind NASL? You'd think someone in that position would know better than to act like that. And not sure what's going on with tyler lately, but swearing in chat in games, not GGing when he got outplayed by socke, bming on his stream, and now these self serving superiority complex comments... what kind of a professional are you if you can't lose with dignity?? | ||
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Geddon
Canada5 Posts
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
I would have liked to see Empire there (over Millenium/sixjax/MyM) and I am not really excited to see 2v2, as it remains not really balanced or competitive (and I feel the reason EG included it is because they already got a great 2v2 team). Aside from those small issues, everything is great and im looking forward to it. | ||
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