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EG launch $10,000 Master's Cup Series League - Page 48

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1006 CommentsPost a Reply
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Bobster
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany3075 Posts
May 03 2011 15:29 GMT
#941
On May 03 2011 08:35 Aristodemus wrote:
I imagine EG will use Idra and Demuslim for their 2v2 team considering (in my opinion) they are EG's best two players and have been playing some 2v2 on ladder also.
No, Axslav and Strifecro are EG's 2v2 team, I think.
hakhu
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany43 Posts
May 03 2011 15:32 GMT
#942
On May 03 2011 23:52 DrunkenTemplar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2011 16:22 hakhu wrote:
At the next Soccer World Cup in Brazil I think it would be fair for all the South American teams do demand to play with the sun at their back (or the "better" half of the field) and not switch sides after half-time.
It's their tournament and their continent. Why should they have to suffer the inconvenience! Outrage!
It's the fault of the other teams that they live in Europe, Asia etc. It's their choice to live there, so they will just have to face the consequences.


Witty, but a fail analogy. Brazil doesn't get to determine the rules, FIFA does. In this tournament, EG ultimately makes the decision on the rules, it's their tournament.


It's still a global tournament (inviting teams with players from 4 continents should be enough to count as global) with rules clearly favoring NA players.
DrunkenTemplar
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia647 Posts
May 03 2011 15:48 GMT
#943
On May 04 2011 00:32 hakhu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2011 23:52 DrunkenTemplar wrote:
On May 03 2011 16:22 hakhu wrote:
At the next Soccer World Cup in Brazil I think it would be fair for all the South American teams do demand to play with the sun at their back (or the "better" half of the field) and not switch sides after half-time.
It's their tournament and their continent. Why should they have to suffer the inconvenience! Outrage!
It's the fault of the other teams that they live in Europe, Asia etc. It's their choice to live there, so they will just have to face the consequences.


Witty, but a fail analogy. Brazil doesn't get to determine the rules, FIFA does. In this tournament, EG ultimately makes the decision on the rules, it's their tournament.


It's still a global tournament (inviting teams with players from 4 continents should be enough to count as global) with rules clearly favoring NA players.


I don't agree that they are comparable because they are both global tournaments (although I did lol at your post

Anyway, done arguing, go Mondragon!!!

pieman819
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia457 Posts
May 03 2011 16:00 GMT
#944
Somone mentioned SEA as a potential neutral ground for future events earlier since it might have a better latency balance (i guess thats what you might call everyone getting some lag all the time rather than half the people getting no lag), Just wondering if anyone haf looked into if this might work and the ping differences to SEA from around different regions. Sorry if i missed a response to this.
Hi
GeorgeForeman
Profile Joined April 2005
United States1746 Posts
May 03 2011 16:41 GMT
#945
EG will run roughshod over this league. Ax/Strife will probably win ever 2v2 they play, and then they just need Idra to win twice.

Good decision forcing EU teams to play on NA, too, since that's where the toughest competition will be.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the new sixjax team performs. Not really sure what to expect out of them.
like a school bus through a bunch of kids
Imhotep
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden267 Posts
May 03 2011 16:42 GMT
#946
On May 04 2011 00:29 Bobster wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2011 08:35 Aristodemus wrote:
I imagine EG will use Idra and Demuslim for their 2v2 team considering (in my opinion) they are EG's best two players and have been playing some 2v2 on ladder also.
No, Axslav and Strifecro are EG's 2v2 team, I think.

Yeah, and they're siiiiiiiick.
"The world is a dynamic mess of jiggling things." - Richard Feynman
hakhu
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany43 Posts
May 03 2011 16:55 GMT
#947
On May 04 2011 01:41 GeorgeForeman wrote:
Good decision forcing EU teams to play on NA, too, since that's where the toughest competition will be.


I really hope you are kidding.

I seriously doubt that has been EGs thought process.
kawaiiryuko
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States368 Posts
May 03 2011 17:15 GMT
#948
Not for nothing, but I think EG vs. dignitas 2v2 is going to be epic.
Chicane
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7875 Posts
May 03 2011 17:29 GMT
#949
Very nice line up! I'm hoping EG and Root do well. I really like the inclusion of Sixjax and Millenium... I'm interested to see how they do as I haven't seen them in team tournaments before (though I've obviously seen their players), and I'm really interested in the 2v2s. And you have wheat casting!
Dexington
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada7276 Posts
May 03 2011 17:36 GMT
#950
Seems like this format suits EG best. The have arguably the most potent 2v2 team (Axslav and StrifeCro, who were 2v2 pros in Warcraft 3) and one of the best players in the world in Idra. Idra just needs to win two games each series (1 + ace game) and the pair has to win the 2v2 game every series and they have it e z.
"Man you guys are missing out waving your stats dicks about instead of watching this pvp" - bbm
Iron Reflex
Profile Joined March 2011
12 Posts
May 03 2011 18:32 GMT
#951
Sounds really awesome. Can't wait to watch. EG <3

People need to stop whining and speculating over why Liquid isn't in the tournament. Who cares? It gives other teams a chance to participate in the tournament.
Chicane
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7875 Posts
May 03 2011 18:41 GMT
#952
Wow... and here I was walking into this thread all excited and happy for the event... and everyone is complaining and arguing.

The fact is there are two sides to the story, and both are reasonable. EG wants to have a NA based tournament while including EU teams, and all the teams who don't want to participate can decline. It may not be the most fair or convenient for TL and I understand why they are not happy with it... but that's just how it is at this point. Everyone should just let it go and enjoy it now.

I gotta say though... my favorite part of this thread was Xeris randomly talking down on Empire just because of how unwarranted, uneducated and biased his argument was. Hahaha... what a classy guy. Seriously though, it was pathetic.
ccHaZaRd
Profile Joined February 2009
Canada1024 Posts
May 03 2011 18:46 GMT
#953
glad to see some 2v2 being used :D
Sein
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1811 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-03 18:54:55
May 03 2011 18:54 GMT
#954
First of all, the biggest blame by far should go to Blizzard for their stubbornness against implementing LAN(and VPN for online) and consequently hurting global online tournaments.

With that said, I think EG should have listened to Liquid's request in this case as Liquid weren't trying to gain an unfair advantage for their players but rather to even out the field. The facts seem to be:

1) There is a disadvantage due to latency playing cross server (esp. from Korea to EU or NA)
2) You can get somewhat used to bad latency by playing a few practice games, but there is a ceiling where you can't play any better with this problem even with hardcore practice for obvious reasons.
3) However, that ceiling can be reached fairly easily. It doesn't take 200 practice games cross server to get to this point.

Point #3 negates the argument that "If we accept Liquid's request, then everyone else will have to practice hard on the Korean server and nobody wants to do that". It will not make a difference for the European players (who I think represent about half of all the players?) except that they will actually get to play half of their games vs. NA players on the EU server. Besides, it's difficult to believe that the NA/EU players themselves have zero experience playing on the Korean server to begin with, so this "Liquid players will have an unfair advantage because they are used to playing cross server" thing is nonsense. Jinro himself said that he actually hasn't played a lot of games on the NA server during the time he has been in Korea.

Basically, the only teams this proposed change will have a negative effect on are the NA teams, but this effect is "unfair advantage" to "even" rather than "even" to "unfair disadvantage".

"But we want the best qualities possible for the tournament." - Theoretically, this should be irrelevant because under the current rules, non-NA players will play below their full potential in all the games, while under Liquid's proposed changes, non-NA players will play below their full potential half of the games while NA players will play below their full potential in the other half of the games. In both cases, we will have one player every game not playing as well as he would like to.

There was hardly any inconvenience in alternating servers considering Liquid was quite used to handling it and the games are going to be casted from replays. It would not have taken 3 hours each time between games to switch between servers.
s4life
Profile Joined March 2007
Peru1519 Posts
May 03 2011 18:57 GMT
#955
On May 04 2011 00:23 Vetrocide wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2011 17:20 TheGreenBee wrote:
I feel like even if TL is right in this case, having KR players compete in foreign tournaments is not a good idea given the current state of b.net.
Like when MC and other KR players lost in the TSL, most people are thinking: "Oh he only lost because of lag". which kinda invalidates their opponents and the tournament result..


MC played from denmark when he got knocked out of TSL, lag had nothing to do with his results

I get your point, though


This is gotta be the 100th time I've seen this posted.. amazing
Alexj
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Ukraine440 Posts
May 03 2011 19:10 GMT
#956
A couple of people mentioned Empire, I would also point out that RoX.KIS could be a great addition as well. In fact, in last 2 seasons of RPL (Russian-language Pro League) the finals were between RoX.KIS and Empire (and RoX.KIS won both)
More GGs, more skill
Azarkon
Profile Joined January 2010
United States21060 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-03 19:16:28
May 03 2011 19:12 GMT
#957
On May 04 2011 03:54 Sein wrote:
First of all, the biggest blame by far should go to Blizzard for their stubbornness against implementing LAN(and VPN for online) and consequently hurting global online tournaments.

With that said, I think EG should have listened to Liquid's request in this case as Liquid weren't trying to gain an unfair advantage for their players but rather to even out the field. The facts seem to be:

1) There is a disadvantage due to latency playing cross server (esp. from Korea to EU or NA)
2) You can get somewhat used to bad latency by playing a few practice games, but there is a ceiling where you can't play any better with this problem even with hardcore practice for obvious reasons.
3) However, that ceiling can be reached fairly easily. It doesn't take 200 practice games cross server to get to this point.

Point #3 negates the argument that "If we accept Liquid's request, then everyone else will have to practice hard on the Korean server and nobody wants to do that". It will not make a difference for the European players (who I think represent about half of all the players?) except that they will actually get to play half of their games vs. NA players on the EU server. Besides, it's difficult to believe that the NA/EU players themselves have zero experience playing on the Korean server to begin with, so this "Liquid players will have an unfair advantage because they are used to playing cross server" thing is nonsense. Jinro himself said that he actually hasn't played a lot of games on the NA server during the time he has been in Korea.

Basically, the only teams this proposed change will have a negative effect on are the NA teams, but this effect is "unfair advantage" to "even" rather than "even" to "unfair disadvantage".

"But we want the best qualities possible for the tournament." - Theoretically, this should be irrelevant because under the current rules, non-NA players will play below their full potential in all the games, while under Liquid's proposed changes, non-NA players will play below their full potential half of the games while NA players will play below their full potential in the other half of the games. In both cases, we will have one player every game not playing as well as he would like to.

There was hardly any inconvenience in alternating servers considering Liquid was quite used to handling it and the games are going to be casted from replays. It would not have taken 3 hours each time between games to switch between servers.


While Idra is not necessarily the official representative of EG in this thread, I think you still need to account for his point, which is that the league doesn't want teams to play on the KR server because it produces shitty games and they'd rather have Liquid out than have shitty games. It's not about competitive fairness. It's about the league's aversion to NA<->KR cross-server play overriding their desire to have Liquid onboard. NA<->EU is much more playable and therefore the league is willing to tolerate it (though you are correct to point out that EU teams have to play on NA and therefore suffer a slight competitive disadvantage). But NA<->KR, perhaps in retrospect of the hassle NASL encountered, they do not.

And part of this is "home court convenience." Idra is basically saying, "this is a non-Korean league, so we have no responsibility to players in Korea. If you want to join, then you deal with the lag. We're not going to inconvenience ourselves (ie play under KR lag) for your sake." Of course, this was not the official reason given by EG for refusing Liquid's request. But insofar as no one from EG has denied what Idra is saying, it is probably one underlying reason.
drucifer10
Profile Joined March 2011
United States16 Posts
May 03 2011 19:13 GMT
#958
After thinking about it I would have to agree with Liquid. Liquid wants it to be fair and and EG wants it to be easy and convenient. It's like if the NBA said well I know it would be fair if you guys alternated arenas for the playoffs but it's easier for us if you guys just stay in LA for all 7 games. This is an e-SPORT right?
Sein
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1811 Posts
May 03 2011 19:22 GMT
#959
On May 04 2011 04:12 Azarkon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2011 03:54 Sein wrote:
First of all, the biggest blame by far should go to Blizzard for their stubbornness against implementing LAN(and VPN for online) and consequently hurting global online tournaments.

With that said, I think EG should have listened to Liquid's request in this case as Liquid weren't trying to gain an unfair advantage for their players but rather to even out the field. The facts seem to be:

1) There is a disadvantage due to latency playing cross server (esp. from Korea to EU or NA)
2) You can get somewhat used to bad latency by playing a few practice games, but there is a ceiling where you can't play any better with this problem even with hardcore practice for obvious reasons.
3) However, that ceiling can be reached fairly easily. It doesn't take 200 practice games cross server to get to this point.

Point #3 negates the argument that "If we accept Liquid's request, then everyone else will have to practice hard on the Korean server and nobody wants to do that". It will not make a difference for the European players (who I think represent about half of all the players?) except that they will actually get to play half of their games vs. NA players on the EU server. Besides, it's difficult to believe that the NA/EU players themselves have zero experience playing on the Korean server to begin with, so this "Liquid players will have an unfair advantage because they are used to playing cross server" thing is nonsense. Jinro himself said that he actually hasn't played a lot of games on the NA server during the time he has been in Korea.

Basically, the only teams this proposed change will have a negative effect on are the NA teams, but this effect is "unfair advantage" to "even" rather than "even" to "unfair disadvantage".

"But we want the best qualities possible for the tournament." - Theoretically, this should be irrelevant because under the current rules, non-NA players will play below their full potential in all the games, while under Liquid's proposed changes, non-NA players will play below their full potential half of the games while NA players will play below their full potential in the other half of the games. In both cases, we will have one player every game not playing as well as he would like to.

There was hardly any inconvenience in alternating servers considering Liquid was quite used to handling it and the games are going to be casted from replays. It would not have taken 3 hours each time between games to switch between servers.


While Idra is not necessarily the official representative of EG in this thread, I think you still need to account for his point, which is that the league doesn't want teams to play on the Korean server because it produces shitty games and they'd rather have Liquid out than have shitty games. It's not about competitive fairness. It's about the league's aversion to NA<->KR cross-server play overriding their desire to have Liquid onboard. NA<->EU is much more playable and therefore the league is willing to tolerate it (though you are correct to point out that EU teams have to play on NA and therefore suffer a slight competitive disadvantage). But NA<->KR, perhaps in retrospect of the hassle NASL encountered, they do not.

And part of this is "home court convenience." Idra is basically saying, "this is a non-Korean league, so we have no responsibility to players in Korea. If you want to join, then you deal with the lag. We're not going to inconvenience ourselves (ie play under KR lag) for your sake." Of course, this was not the official reason given by EG for refusing Liquid's request. But insofar as no one from EG has denied what Idra is saying, it is probably one underlying reason.


EG invited TL though? They wanted Liquid to play. Like I said above, any game involving the 3 KR-based players is likely to produce shitty games because at least one of the two players will always play with lag no matter which server the games are played on.

Of course EG is running the tournament and they can do whatever they want with the rules. Heck, they can even give themselves a free win each round as a "home team advantage" and nobody can change that. Doesn't mean I agree with their decisions.
mrscheng
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Sweden658 Posts
May 03 2011 19:37 GMT
#960
how will you tie in a bo5 ?
SKT Hyuk is my homeboy
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