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On May 03 2011 12:48 Sephimos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 12:27 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On May 03 2011 12:13 Sephimos wrote:On May 03 2011 12:04 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On May 03 2011 11:06 KillaRM wrote:
I don't think splitting the match-ups 50/50 on Us/KR is fair. It works fine in the TSL which is a 1v1 league but this a team league where that could very well be used to the advantage of Liquid. I don't think its the tournaments responsibility to accommodate players, the players know what they are getting into and if they don't like it they should just not play. People keep bringing up the NASL and the Korean players but they knew it would be at bad times and a different server and they still decided to play so it's their fault if they don't like the conditions not the NASL's. I dont understand how on EARTH it can work to our advantage, unless by advantage you mean "not handicapped". On May 03 2011 11:09 Sephimos wrote:
Epic league, epic format, major props to EG for trying something different. Will be hilarious to watch pros cobble together some 2v2 strats, can't wait.
On the dramabomb, EG's decision sounds fairly reasonable. I guess I respect Liquid for standing up for their players, but asking seven other teams to kneecap themselves for one team, who made a conscious decision to have some of their players in Korea, seems pretty out of line. You don't get to make demands of other peoples' tournaments, and arguing that you do makes you seem a little...self righteous. We want equal playing conditions and thats self-righteous? Liquid made a decision to keep some of their bigger names in Korea. You, HuK, and Haypro weren't kidnapped and whisked off to the Korean peninsula. It's been obvious for quite some time that there would be significant compartmentalization of competition since Blizzard has broken different regions up. If Liquid's going to keep people in Korea, it can't moan (cry and slur in Tyler's case) at everyone else for rules that happen to be bad for people in Korea. Any other argument turns into "we're Team Liquid, we deserve special breaks and accommodations, even though we've made a conscious business decision." I get that you want the best conditions, but I think you have to realize that until Blizzard gets its shit together, there are going to be prices for being in Korea. IdrA can't compete in GSL since he left Korea, and I don't hear him complaining that he isn't being catered to by GSL becoming an online tournament playable from NA. And likewise you dont hear me bloodycomplaining that I cant go to the swedish WCG prelims or 99% of other european tournaments. Online is not = offline, there is no actual barrier towards making what we proposed happen, and they did invite us so apparently they are interested in having us play.
If latency wasn't an issue, TL wouldn't require multiple servers to participate. The reality is that it is a huge issue that impacts gameplay, which as IdrA intimated, TL tried to downplay during the TSL.
Ugh, you realize the rules we are asking for are the same as the ones used in TSL? Who's saying they didn't want your team to play? There isn't any physical barrier to mimicking TSL's format, but I don't know that TSL's format is optimal. TL naturally seems to think it is, I don't agree and it seems EG doesn't either. My point was that staying in Korea has consequences, which you realize. One of those consequences is the retarded lag that seems to be an inescapable feature of the Korean server connecting abroad. It doesn't seem absurd to me for tournament organizers to just sidestep this unfortunate feature by hosting tournaments on the NA server. The big lesson is for Blizzard to just merge the servers effectively, until then, I think people just have to realize that they'll need to deal with compartmentalized tournaments and competitions. Picking and choosing effectively will be a major duty of team leaders. Additionally, slandering reputable members of the community such as Colbi, Scoots, and EG at large serves no one well. I think their tournament sounds amazing, and I'm so glad they're taking a measured gamble with the 2v2 format. Has the potential for really memorable and entertaining games. Also, does anyone else read djwheat's posts in djwheat's voice?
TSLs format IS optimal because of the variations in KR-NA lag compared to EU-NA lag and so forth. Why should professional players be punished in their choice to go to Korea and compete?
I firmly stand by Jinro and TL in their propositions as it is the most just that would allow players from all three server to compete at the most fair level in terms of latency that you can with the system that is in place(battle.net).
As for the third game, it could go to coin flip or both players could veto a server of their choice resulting in the last one being left the server of choice for both; however, my guess is that they would veto each others server out and it would go to EU or something. Wouldn't hurt to brainstorm ideas...
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 03 2011 12:48 Sephimos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 12:27 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On May 03 2011 12:13 Sephimos wrote:On May 03 2011 12:04 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On May 03 2011 11:06 KillaRM wrote:
I don't think splitting the match-ups 50/50 on Us/KR is fair. It works fine in the TSL which is a 1v1 league but this a team league where that could very well be used to the advantage of Liquid. I don't think its the tournaments responsibility to accommodate players, the players know what they are getting into and if they don't like it they should just not play. People keep bringing up the NASL and the Korean players but they knew it would be at bad times and a different server and they still decided to play so it's their fault if they don't like the conditions not the NASL's. I dont understand how on EARTH it can work to our advantage, unless by advantage you mean "not handicapped". On May 03 2011 11:09 Sephimos wrote:
Epic league, epic format, major props to EG for trying something different. Will be hilarious to watch pros cobble together some 2v2 strats, can't wait.
On the dramabomb, EG's decision sounds fairly reasonable. I guess I respect Liquid for standing up for their players, but asking seven other teams to kneecap themselves for one team, who made a conscious decision to have some of their players in Korea, seems pretty out of line. You don't get to make demands of other peoples' tournaments, and arguing that you do makes you seem a little...self righteous. We want equal playing conditions and thats self-righteous? Liquid made a decision to keep some of their bigger names in Korea. You, HuK, and Haypro weren't kidnapped and whisked off to the Korean peninsula. It's been obvious for quite some time that there would be significant compartmentalization of competition since Blizzard has broken different regions up. If Liquid's going to keep people in Korea, it can't moan (cry and slur in Tyler's case) at everyone else for rules that happen to be bad for people in Korea. Any other argument turns into "we're Team Liquid, we deserve special breaks and accommodations, even though we've made a conscious business decision." I get that you want the best conditions, but I think you have to realize that until Blizzard gets its shit together, there are going to be prices for being in Korea. IdrA can't compete in GSL since he left Korea, and I don't hear him complaining that he isn't being catered to by GSL becoming an online tournament playable from NA. And likewise you dont hear me bloodycomplaining that I cant go to the swedish WCG prelims or 99% of other european tournaments. Online is not = offline, there is no actual barrier towards making what we proposed happen, and they did invite us so apparently they are interested in having us play.
If latency wasn't an issue, TL wouldn't require multiple servers to participate. The reality is that it is a huge issue that impacts gameplay, which as IdrA intimated, TL tried to downplay during the TSL.
Ugh, you realize the rules we are asking for are the same as the ones used in TSL? Who's saying they didn't want your team to play? There isn't any physical barrier to mimicking TSL's format, but I don't know that TSL's format is optimal. TL naturally seems to think it is, I don't agree and it seems EG doesn't either. My point was that staying in Korea has consequences, which you realize. One of those consequences is the retarded lag that seems to be an inescapable feature of the Korean server connecting abroad. It doesn't seem absurd to me for tournament organizers to just sidestep this unfortunate feature by hosting tournaments on the NA server. The big lesson is for Blizzard to just merge the servers effectively, until then, I think people just have to realize that they'll need to deal with compartmentalized tournaments and competitions. Picking and choosing effectively will be a major duty of team leaders. Additionally, slandering reputable members of the community such as Colbi, Scoots, and EG at large serves no one well. I think their tournament sounds amazing, and I'm so glad they're taking a measured gamble with the 2v2 format. Has the potential for really memorable and entertaining games. Also, does anyone else read djwheat's posts in djwheat's voice?
Yes but if we are invited, and thus wanted, its not that strange that we want good playing conditions. Its not like they didnt want us in their league and we came in making these demands.
I think it will be a good league with or without us tho.
And I havent slandered anyone as far as I know.
On May 03 2011 13:00 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 12:14 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On May 03 2011 08:42 Defacer wrote:On May 03 2011 08:19 nehcnhoj wrote:In regards to the TL - EG debate, I believe that really nobody is in the wrong. It's just a different set of priorities. TL, having always taken the responsibility of upholding the highest standard in this scene, would obviously view fairness of tournaments as the utmost importance. As seen by TSL3, is anybody contesting there's a fairer way of running the tournament? No, and as of present, there really issin't. EG, however, puts game quality, hype, enjoyment of the participants, as the highest level. Now this philosophy will inevitably step on some toes, But it certainly works. IdrA's points were valid, it's just not as fun watching someone from EU play someone from KR on the NA server compared to a no-lag situation. "Fun" might be the wrong word here, but the lag takes something away from the game regardless. It sucks that Blizzard/technology (the vehicle of e-sports :DD) is not at the level where these differences result in some friction. The other alternative/solution is that in time, as more money flows into the scene, team-league events become an offline affair. I'm sure there are other solutions money can buy  My personal opinion as a viewer though, is that I would certainly enjoy the presence of Liquid and any other team that might ever have a similar situation, at the cost of a small loss of quality in the few games played between the EU/KR players. I think the guy from FXO put it best earlier in the thread, this is after all, a business, I think I agree with what you're saying, but the concept of 'fairness' and 'fun' is confusing. Based on Team Liquid's argument, they would rather have a tournament experience that is equally compromised/unfair for everyone, than a tournament experience that is optimal for 95% of the participants. On a tangential note, it's kind of reminds me of what's fundamentally wrong with communism. But it's worth repeating, that being 'fair' and having 'the highest standard' are not necessarily the same thing. Its not like we are asking americans to play on KR when they play other americans, the amount of unfairness is exactly the same actually, its just not all distributed in the same direction -_-; BO3: Game 1 unfair for the KR player, cuz on NA Game 2 unfair for the NA player, cuz on KR BO3 only NA: Game 1 unfair for KR Game 2 unfair for KR Equal amount of unfairness overall, equal amount of games that will be "compromised". Just curious, but given that most tournaments run BO3, what is your proposal for the third game? And how will this work for a team league with BO1s? Team Liquid has players in both NA and KR. I assume you can't just do a 50/50 split here because then Liquid can just send their NA players on NA and KR players on KR. Presumably, you would have to work out a system depending on who you field. For example, if you field Haypro and Huk, then you get one game on KR, three games on NA. But if you field TLO, Tyler, and Ret, then you have to do all four games on NA. Seems quite complicated.
Yes, I thought it was Bo3 for 99% of this thread, it being BO1 is a complication. Maybe something like flipping a coin to decide server between NA/KR, possibly with limitations on how many KR players can be brought in one series. Its not the greatest solution but its still fairer.
I dunno, BO1 is definitely less easy than Bo3. Bo3 I would just do 1 game each then random or NA favored (its fine that they have some kind of home court advantage IMO).
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State of the Game is going to be great this week. Incontrol and Tyler are friends and they both don't hold any punches should be an interesting debate. Personally I see both sides and think all the drama is rather entertaining. It is like watch MTV and such with my wife. :-)
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On May 03 2011 13:05 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 12:48 Sephimos wrote:On May 03 2011 12:27 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On May 03 2011 12:13 Sephimos wrote:On May 03 2011 12:04 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On May 03 2011 11:06 KillaRM wrote:
I don't think splitting the match-ups 50/50 on Us/KR is fair. It works fine in the TSL which is a 1v1 league but this a team league where that could very well be used to the advantage of Liquid. I don't think its the tournaments responsibility to accommodate players, the players know what they are getting into and if they don't like it they should just not play. People keep bringing up the NASL and the Korean players but they knew it would be at bad times and a different server and they still decided to play so it's their fault if they don't like the conditions not the NASL's. I dont understand how on EARTH it can work to our advantage, unless by advantage you mean "not handicapped". On May 03 2011 11:09 Sephimos wrote:
Epic league, epic format, major props to EG for trying something different. Will be hilarious to watch pros cobble together some 2v2 strats, can't wait.
On the dramabomb, EG's decision sounds fairly reasonable. I guess I respect Liquid for standing up for their players, but asking seven other teams to kneecap themselves for one team, who made a conscious decision to have some of their players in Korea, seems pretty out of line. You don't get to make demands of other peoples' tournaments, and arguing that you do makes you seem a little...self righteous. We want equal playing conditions and thats self-righteous? Liquid made a decision to keep some of their bigger names in Korea. You, HuK, and Haypro weren't kidnapped and whisked off to the Korean peninsula. It's been obvious for quite some time that there would be significant compartmentalization of competition since Blizzard has broken different regions up. If Liquid's going to keep people in Korea, it can't moan (cry and slur in Tyler's case) at everyone else for rules that happen to be bad for people in Korea. Any other argument turns into "we're Team Liquid, we deserve special breaks and accommodations, even though we've made a conscious business decision." I get that you want the best conditions, but I think you have to realize that until Blizzard gets its shit together, there are going to be prices for being in Korea. IdrA can't compete in GSL since he left Korea, and I don't hear him complaining that he isn't being catered to by GSL becoming an online tournament playable from NA. And likewise you dont hear me bloodycomplaining that I cant go to the swedish WCG prelims or 99% of other european tournaments. Online is not = offline, there is no actual barrier towards making what we proposed happen, and they did invite us so apparently they are interested in having us play.
If latency wasn't an issue, TL wouldn't require multiple servers to participate. The reality is that it is a huge issue that impacts gameplay, which as IdrA intimated, TL tried to downplay during the TSL.
Ugh, you realize the rules we are asking for are the same as the ones used in TSL? Who's saying they didn't want your team to play? There isn't any physical barrier to mimicking TSL's format, but I don't know that TSL's format is optimal. TL naturally seems to think it is, I don't agree and it seems EG doesn't either. My point was that staying in Korea has consequences, which you realize. One of those consequences is the retarded lag that seems to be an inescapable feature of the Korean server connecting abroad. It doesn't seem absurd to me for tournament organizers to just sidestep this unfortunate feature by hosting tournaments on the NA server. The big lesson is for Blizzard to just merge the servers effectively, until then, I think people just have to realize that they'll need to deal with compartmentalized tournaments and competitions. Picking and choosing effectively will be a major duty of team leaders. Additionally, slandering reputable members of the community such as Colbi, Scoots, and EG at large serves no one well. I think their tournament sounds amazing, and I'm so glad they're taking a measured gamble with the 2v2 format. Has the potential for really memorable and entertaining games. Also, does anyone else read djwheat's posts in djwheat's voice? Yes but if we are invited, and thus wanted, its not that strange that we want good playing conditions. Its not like they didnt want us in their league and we came in making these demands. I think it will be a good league with or without us tho. And I havent slandered anyone as far as I know.
I'm more referring to your team mate. I didn't mean to implicate you, apologies.
Of course they should make reasonable accommodations, but they didn't feel the accommodation was reasonable. I happen to agree with them, you certainly disagree. *shrug*.
I agree, I think the league will be great, and I really hope something can be arranged where we don't lose out on watching a premiere team like Liquid play next time. Here's hoping.
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On May 03 2011 13:00 stevarius wrote:
TSLs format IS optimal because of the variations in KR-NA lag compared to EU-NA lag and so forth. Why should professional players be punished in their choice to go to Korea and compete?
Because they are already rewarded by being in Korea and having access to GSL. Why should players in Korea have all the advantages and none of the inconveniences?
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On May 03 2011 13:10 Shen_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 13:00 stevarius wrote:
TSLs format IS optimal because of the variations in KR-NA lag compared to EU-NA lag and so forth. Why should professional players be punished in their choice to go to Korea and compete?
Because they are already rewarded by being in Korea and having access to GSL. Why should players in Korea have all the advantages and none of the inconveniences?
Rewarded by being in Korea? They have fewer chances to win $$$ on average then NA or EU, and are living in a foreign country dealing with language barriers, cultural acclimation etc. A good side though is playing in a country with a supportive and aged organization with team houses and many highly experienced players. But I would not say its a reward, its just different at this point.
Perhaps it was a "reward" back in September/August when the GSL was all that was really going on consistently with good competition and money, but now its balanced out a little bit in terms of the pros versus cons across regions. Poor choice of wording.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 03 2011 13:10 Shen_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 13:00 stevarius wrote:
TSLs format IS optimal because of the variations in KR-NA lag compared to EU-NA lag and so forth. Why should professional players be punished in their choice to go to Korea and compete?
Because they are already rewarded by being in Korea and having access to GSL. Why should players in Korea have all the advantages and none of the inconveniences?
I really dont understand why we should be punished, we are already missing out on every single non-major (ie Dreamhack size) offline event in europe/US as well as every single european online tournament.
That, IMO, is enough punishment.
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On May 03 2011 12:27 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ugh, you realize the rules we are asking for are the same as the ones used in TSL?
Yes. And I can understand why EG would not want to adhere to those rules. It's unfair for TL and teams on the Korean server, but I don't see TSL's system as being ideal either.
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On May 03 2011 13:10 Shen_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 13:00 stevarius wrote:
TSLs format IS optimal because of the variations in KR-NA lag compared to EU-NA lag and so forth. Why should professional players be punished in their choice to go to Korea and compete?
Because they are already rewarded by being in Korea and having access to GSL. Why should players in Korea have all the advantages and none of the inconveniences?
Where do you get this from? They already have tons of inconveniences. They can't play in nearly as many events due to time zones/latency as they have stated they would like to. That doesn't mean they deserve special treatment, but if it was all sunshine and roses, a lot more people would be in Korea at the moment. 
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On May 03 2011 13:10 Shen_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 13:00 stevarius wrote:
TSLs format IS optimal because of the variations in KR-NA lag compared to EU-NA lag and so forth. Why should professional players be punished in their choice to go to Korea and compete?
Because they are already rewarded by being in Korea and having access to GSL. Why should players in Korea have all the advantages and none of the inconveniences?
Hmm, I think the point you're raising is really one of the hidden issues of this whole discussion. There seems to be this sense within the foreign eSports community that you're either with "them" or with "us" - ie if you're on KR, then you shouldn't expect a fair shot at foreigner tournaments because these tournaments are meant for foreigners, who, after all, do not have fair shots at GSL because GSL requires Korean residency.
Such a mentality goes beyond any game specific rationale and is ultimately about "fairness of opportunity." But as Jinro pointed out, being able to play in the GSL is not really that much of an advantage. Then again, someone could argue that if it's not an advantage, then that's all the more reason for bringing the boys home.
It seems to be an undercurrent pervading these discussions, and is perhaps spurred on by the fact that despite all their reach-outs, GSL really isn't that open to foreigners, whereas foreigner tournaments are inviting Korean players left and right, whether online or offline.
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On May 03 2011 13:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 13:10 Shen_ wrote:On May 03 2011 13:00 stevarius wrote:
TSLs format IS optimal because of the variations in KR-NA lag compared to EU-NA lag and so forth. Why should professional players be punished in their choice to go to Korea and compete?
Because they are already rewarded by being in Korea and having access to GSL. Why should players in Korea have all the advantages and none of the inconveniences? I really dont understand why we should be punished, we are already missing out on every single non-major (ie Dreamhack size) offline event in europe/US as well as every single european online tournament. That, IMO, is enough punishment.
but its your choice, you knew itd make foreign stuff inconvenient when you went to korea and you have the option to go home. if you want to participate in foreign events you should leave korea. if not its your responsibility to deal with it.
its not a punishment, you just have no right to expect other players to accept shitty playing conditions to accommodate you.
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On the one hand, the GSL and Korean scene gives players this amazing opportunity to make a living playing professionally, and growing in the most competitive environment possible.
On the other hand, the latency between Korean and everywhere else is, for some reason, horrible; and the GSL monopolizes all of a players time.
I feel bad for TL now.  The real problem is Blizzard, not EG. I heard that during the BW days there were no latency issues.
Edit: But as IdrA points out, it's a choice to play in Korea, not a punishment or obligation.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 03 2011 13:26 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 12:27 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ugh, you realize the rules we are asking for are the same as the ones used in TSL? Yes. And I can understand why EG would not want to adhere to those rules. It's unfair for TL and teams on the Korean server, but I don't see TSL's system as being ideal either.
Yes but it makes no sense to say we were downplaying lag in TSL and are now making a big deal about it, when we are asking for the same system as used in TSL.
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A fair solution isn't necessarily a good solution. Consider the first proposal in the Judgement of Solomon: half a baby for each of 2 women might be fair, but isn't going to work out very well for the baby or the real mother. In this case, pretty much everyone agrees that playing with a lot of lag is a bad thing. On the other hand, not getting to participate is also a bad thing, especially for such dedicated pros as we have here. It feels to me like the two sides are proposing solutions for half of the problem without fully acknowledging the burden they're placing on the other side.
EG: Let's have a tournament without cross-Pacific latency for NA/EU players. (I guess that means part of TL can't play without a latency handicap)
TL: Let's have a tournament that balances the latency handicaps. (I guess that means there will be latency complaints, more complex rules and organization)
Beyond the issue of fairness with respect to latency, there are benefits to both approaches. Lower average latency can result in more precise control: games that viewers recognize as being played at a high level, and games that the players feel are an adequate representation of their talent. More exposure for lower profile teams also encourages a spreading base of NA talent and teams. On the flip side, including TL means we get to see more of our local heroes in action. It also adds legitimacy for the winners as they will have taken on a wider field of competitors.
At the end of the day it is EG's tournament to run. I support their decision but would love to see both sides more fully recognize the sacrifices they're asking others to make and the potential benefits to other solutions.
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On May 03 2011 13:34 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 13:26 Defacer wrote:On May 03 2011 12:27 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ugh, you realize the rules we are asking for are the same as the ones used in TSL? Yes. And I can understand why EG would not want to adhere to those rules. It's unfair for TL and teams on the Korean server, but I don't see TSL's system as being ideal either. Yes but it makes no sense to say we were downplaying lag in TSL and are now making a big deal about it, when we are asking for the same system as used in TSL.
I apologize for my shitty writing.
I meant to say, "Latency is enough of an issue that TSL addressed the issue with a system, and has requested that EG adopt the same system. EG's preference is to not adopt that system, which meant giving a majority of players ideal playing conditions at the risk of alienating a select few."
I don't think we're disagreeing, and I didn't mean to infer that TL is somehow being hypocritical; TL has been consistent with their standards for tournaments.
My understanding is that TL feels latency is tolerable, assuming players practice with it and it's consistent. The problem is convincing all the other players and tournament organizers.
Tough sell, my friend.
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On May 03 2011 13:45 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 13:34 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On May 03 2011 13:26 Defacer wrote:On May 03 2011 12:27 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Ugh, you realize the rules we are asking for are the same as the ones used in TSL? Yes. And I can understand why EG would not want to adhere to those rules. It's unfair for TL and teams on the Korean server, but I don't see TSL's system as being ideal either. Yes but it makes no sense to say we were downplaying lag in TSL and are now making a big deal about it, when we are asking for the same system as used in TSL. I apologize for my shitty writing. I meant to say, "Latency is enough of an issue that TSL addressed the issue with a system, and has requested that EG adopt the same system. EG's preference is to not adopt that system, which meant giving a majority of players ideal playing conditions at the risk of alienating a select few." I don't think we're disagreeing, and I didn't mean to infer that TL is somehow being hypocritical; TL has been consistent with their standards for tournaments. My understanding is that TL feels latency is tolerable, assuming players practice with it and it's consistent. The problem is convincing all the other players and tournament organizers. Tough sell, my friend.
There is the burden on organizers issue, and then there is Idra's "I left Korea so I didn't have to deal with these fucking issues playing foreigner tournaments so why the hell should you be special" issue. I guess there really are two different issues here - one having to do with convincing the organizers that fairness is worth the extra trouble, and the other one having to do with convincing the other players that there is fairness of opportunity even though GSL is unavailable to anyone who lives outside of Korea.
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On May 03 2011 13:31 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 13:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On May 03 2011 13:10 Shen_ wrote:On May 03 2011 13:00 stevarius wrote:
TSLs format IS optimal because of the variations in KR-NA lag compared to EU-NA lag and so forth. Why should professional players be punished in their choice to go to Korea and compete?
Because they are already rewarded by being in Korea and having access to GSL. Why should players in Korea have all the advantages and none of the inconveniences? I really dont understand why we should be punished, we are already missing out on every single non-major (ie Dreamhack size) offline event in europe/US as well as every single european online tournament. That, IMO, is enough punishment. but its your choice, you knew itd make foreign stuff inconvenient when you went to korea and you have the option to go home. if you want to participate in foreign events you should leave korea. if not its your responsibility to deal with it. its not a punishment, you just have no right to expect other players to accept shitty playing conditions to accommodate you.
Your approach here is rather misguided. If the goal is to cultivate a strong international competitive scene, then the focus should be on making sure that it's as fair to all participants as possible. Since the organizers chose to invite several European teams and a team that has a heavy Korean presence, it's obvious that the goal isn't just to produce another North American league, so these factors should be relevant in this situation -- forcing players to choose which scene to participate in results in the scenes becoming more isolated and isn't good for the global scene.
Moreover, your emphasis on the Korean scene and the tradeoffs that specific players are making here isn't really germane to the issue. The same argument would apply even if the teams were exclusively based in NA and EU. Obviously, the latency difference isn't as serious from EU to NA, but it's transparently the case that it's more fair to the EU players if the games alternate servers. Unlike your way of framing it, where people are making tradeoffs by moving to Korea, this is a question of players remaining in their home countries but still suffering when they play tournaments based on another continent.
Of course, you're right that nobody is obligated to accommodate any team, but that suggests a very strange set of goals. If you want to make a fair, competitive tournament and if you want participation from teams from different parts of the world, it's clear that alternating servers is the best approach.
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Wish there was FXO and Liquid, I guess I will only be tuning in for mouz vs EG vs dignitas games.
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On May 03 2011 13:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 13:10 Shen_ wrote:On May 03 2011 13:00 stevarius wrote:
TSLs format IS optimal because of the variations in KR-NA lag compared to EU-NA lag and so forth. Why should professional players be punished in their choice to go to Korea and compete?
Because they are already rewarded by being in Korea and having access to GSL. Why should players in Korea have all the advantages and none of the inconveniences? I really dont understand why we should be punished, we are already missing out on every single non-major (ie Dreamhack size) offline event in europe/US as well as every single european online tournament. That, IMO, is enough punishment.
Nobody should be punished for anything. I was talking of the factual pros of cons of your situation, and obviously you staying in Korea means that you feel the pros outweight the cons for you, I was just pointing out the obvious, that things like this should fall under the expected "cons".
IMHO, instead of complaining about what you are missing by being on Korea you should take advantage of your situation, why not organize an online team tournament with some Korean teams on the Korean server? Then you can even invite some foreign teams and they will have to play with lag, if they want to play at all.
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On May 03 2011 13:07 Staples1 wrote:
State of the Game is going to be great this week. Incontrol and Tyler are friends and they both don't hold any punches should be an interesting debate. Personally I see both sides and think all the drama is rather entertaining. It is like watch MTV and such with my wife. :-)
SotG is pretty unfair imo, Tyler always goes first.
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EPT
