EPTLet's get this started.
First order of business, you need to decide which server to...
Oh.
EG launch $10,000 Master's Cup Series League - Page 45
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bahl sofs tiil
United States233 Posts
Let's get this started. First order of business, you need to decide which server to... Oh. | ||
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SMD
Canada627 Posts
On May 03 2011 14:08 bahl sofs tiil wrote: Well, there is only one way to solve this: Liquid vs. EG showmatch! Let's get this started. First order of business, you need to decide which server to... Oh. I actually LOL at that one  | ||
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Jotoco
Brazil1342 Posts
On May 03 2011 12:14 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Its not like we are asking americans to play on KR when they play other americans, the amount of unfairness is exactly the same actually, its just not all distributed in the same direction -_-; BO3: Game 1 unfair for the KR player, cuz on NA Game 2 unfair for the NA player, cuz on KR BO3 only NA: Game 1 unfair for KR Game 2 unfair for KR Equal amount of unfairness overall, equal amount of games that will be "compromised". By the any definition of fair, the most fair league would not involve players from KR. Because they would introduce unfairness for one, or both sides. And as has been said, two wrongs don't make one right. And I think EG would be willing to accommodate Liquid, but since they had already sent out the invitations and everyone had already agreed, changing the rules would be cumbersome. It would basically mean restarting the preparations for the league and probably postponing it or it's announcement. I do believe next time they will make the extra effort to put Liquid guys in. Even though I don't know how it would affect, because I don't really know if Liquid is top 8 team anymore. They should run a qualification of some kind, next time. | ||
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GoldenGun
United States49 Posts
Liquid chose to stay back in KR. | ||
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garbanzo
United States4046 Posts
On May 03 2011 12:42 Sheth wrote: I can't believe I read all of that. Phew. In all these clans playing, Goooo ROOT! Also FXO is sad we didn't get chance to qualify! ): P.S. Sorry liquid too. I can't believe I went through all of that too! I mostly just skimmed though, lots of repeated arguments, comments, etc... I have to say that the best post has got to be: On May 03 2011 05:07 Horse...falcon wrote: If you guys have the money DEFINITELY do an IdrA vs team ROOT rivalry video like they do in the GSL. Have IdrA go to the ROOT house in Florida and challenge them to a showmatch. If he wins have him break their banner/sign or something. Or bring iNcontroL along just to do the physical breaking. ...which I only saw because travis commented on it. Please make that happen. That segment is always so hilarious! I'm excited about the prospect of 2v2. I'm interested to see if anything has changed since I saw some of the VODs from Machinima. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On May 03 2011 13:57 PtM wrote: Your approach here is rather misguided. If the goal is to cultivate a strong international competitive scene, then the focus should be on making sure that it's as fair to all participants as possible. Since the organizers chose to invite several European teams and a team that has a heavy Korean presence, it's obvious that the goal isn't just to produce another North American league, so these factors should be relevant in this situation -- forcing players to choose which scene to participate in results in the scenes becoming more isolated and isn't good for the global scene. Moreover, your emphasis on the Korean scene and the tradeoffs that specific players are making here isn't really germane to the issue. The same argument would apply even if the teams were exclusively based in NA and EU. Obviously, the latency difference isn't as serious from EU to NA, but it's transparently the case that it's more fair to the EU players if the games alternate servers. Unlike your way of framing it, where people are making tradeoffs by moving to Korea, this is a question of players remaining in their home countries but still suffering when they play tournaments based on another continent. Of course, you're right that nobody is obligated to accommodate any team, but that suggests a very strange set of goals. If you want to make a fair, competitive tournament and if you want participation from teams from different parts of the world, it's clear that alternating servers is the best approach. na to eu is playable, na to korea is not. just about any competitive player who has played across both will tell you that. the goal is producing a non-asian team league, as that is something that can be done well given the current state of battle.net. a truly international online league is not feasible right now. compare tsl and nasl results to the gsl world cup results. players playing from korea on foreign server's results are meaningless. including that kind of situation in a tournament is silly. liquid received an invitation because they are clearly one of the top non korean teams. but accommodating their choice to have players in korea lowers the quality of the league, which is unacceptable. | ||
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Stark1
Canada120 Posts
Did EG invite Team Liquid knowing these concerns would come up? Almost certainly. Would there have been as much of a shitstorm if Team Liquid had never been contacted about the league at all? Yes, at least behind the scenes. Did EG make the right decision about their rules? Yes. Playing from Korea introduces the element of result-altering lag, which jeopardizes the legitimacy of any matches played from there (see TSL/NASL). As IdrA has stated (from obvious experience), there is a price to be paid for staying in Korea; perhaps once the Up/Down matches are over that price will simply be too great for Jinro and company to remain. Edit: Entered my post only to see IdrA had voiced nearly the same sentiment while I was typing; ain't that a kick in the pants. | ||
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Norwenna
Canada3 Posts
I don't see why all of you have been fighting over where to host tournaments so it is fair ground for everyone. It's pretty simple : there is not such things as a very fair ground wheres its equal for everyone because of current battle.net realms and servers conditions. And instead of bashing on each other the way you have all been in this thread, you should hold each others' hands and push onward to blizzard to make changes possible for those events to happen in the "best possible situation". I don't see why blizzard would not answer if the community pushes as a whole, because it is a problematic situation and the amount of tournament is growing and thus the game's popularity is also growing. Make them understand that it's in their own favor. I love watch you all play, And I'm looking forward to this series, it sounds exciting. | ||
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doufas
Australia10 Posts
On May 03 2011 14:49 IdrA wrote: na to eu is playable, na to korea is not. just about any competitive player who has played across both will tell you that. the goal is producing a non-asian team league, as that is something that can be done well given the current state of battle.net. a truly international online league is not feasible right now. compare tsl and nasl results to the gsl world cup results. players playing from korea on foreign server's results are meaningless. including that kind of situation in a tournament is silly. liquid received an invitation because they are clearly one of the top non korean teams. but accommodating their choice to have players in korea lowers the quality of the league, which is unacceptable. This makes perfect sense to me. Also, just wish Empire was invited Kas is a fkn boss ! Would love to have seen him vs IdrA. Shame about Liquid but thats life. EGs tourny = there rules. | ||
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PtM
89 Posts
On May 03 2011 14:49 IdrA wrote: na to eu is playable, na to korea is not. just about any competitive player who has played across both will tell you that. the goal is producing a non-asian team league, as that is something that can be done well given the current state of battle.net. a truly international online league is not feasible right now. compare tsl and nasl results to the gsl world cup results. players playing from korea on foreign server's results are meaningless. including that kind of situation in a tournament is silly. liquid received an invitation because they are clearly one of the top non korean teams. but accommodating their choice to have players in korea lowers the quality of the league, which is unacceptable. Fair enough. Assuming that the NA-KR games are as bad as you suggest, then I can agree that it would cause problems for the league as a whole to include matches like that (regardless of which server they're being played on). Obviously, the outcome of this is that teams with significant KR representation can't reasonably participate in the tournament, but it sounds like you're fine with that outcome. Separately, I think that alternating between NA/EU for those matches is still a good idea, though it sounds like that one isn't as major of an issue for any of the players. Edit: Basically, to summarize my view on the issue: if Korean players are intended to participate, then the fair way to do things is to alternate servers when those players are participating. However, if the NA-KR lag is too severe to produce meaningful results, then it's better to only include NA/EU players (of course, KR players have the option of playing with this major disadvantage, but it's understandable that they would not want to). In either case, I think it's more fair to EU players to alternate between NA and EU, but this seems to be less important based on the anecdotal accounts from this thread. | ||
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
On May 03 2011 14:58 Norwenna wrote: Please read ! I don't see why all of you have been fighting over where to host tournaments so it is fair ground for everyone. It's pretty simple : there is not such things as a very fair ground wheres its equal for everyone because of current battle.net realms and servers conditions. And instead of bashing on each other the way you have all been in this thread, you should hold each others' hands and push onward to blizzard to make changes possible for those events to happen in the "best possible situation". I don't see why blizzard would not answer if the community pushes as a whole, because it is a problematic situation and the amount of tournament is growing and thus the game's popularity is also growing. Make them understand that it's in their own favor. I love watch you all play, And I'm looking forward to this series, it sounds exciting. What exactly do people expect blizzard to be able to do about this? I'm not that familiar with how SC2's cross server system works but are there really a feasible option to get better playing conditions? On May 03 2011 14:49 IdrA wrote: na to eu is playable, na to korea is not. just about any competitive player who has played across both will tell you that. the goal is producing a non-asian team league, as that is something that can be done well given the current state of battle.net. a truly international online league is not feasible right now. compare tsl and nasl results to the gsl world cup results. players playing from korea on foreign server's results are meaningless. including that kind of situation in a tournament is silly. liquid received an invitation because they are clearly one of the top non korean teams. but accommodating their choice to have players in korea lowers the quality of the league, which is unacceptable. If they had accepted you conditions, wouldn't that also have lowered the quality of the league? Why invite them in the first place if that is unacceptable? You can't have expected them to bring the players home from Korea. | ||
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Torpedo.Vegas
United States1890 Posts
Team EG should fly all invitees to Hawaii to hold the tournament. Hawaii is the only neutral landmass reasonably located. I think all pros will agree with the sentiment that purely from a hardworking competitive standpoint, Hawaii is top 3 in e-sports atmosphere and accommodations. And of course first class only, that room will provide valuable space to set-up laptops to practice and gain last minute experience. | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On May 03 2011 14:49 IdrA wrote: na to eu is playable, na to korea is not. just about any competitive player who has played across both will tell you that. the goal is producing a non-asian team league, as that is something that can be done well given the current state of battle.net. a truly international online league is not feasible right now. compare tsl and nasl results to the gsl world cup results. players playing from korea on foreign server's results are meaningless. including that kind of situation in a tournament is silly. liquid received an invitation because they are clearly one of the top non korean teams. but accommodating their choice to have players in korea lowers the quality of the league, which is unacceptable. I agree that if we don't wan to play in these tournaments that are meant to be for non-Asian teams that we should just decline it, and we did. So we're on one line there. Here is my issue with your posts.
Again; I think everyone can agree that we can just decline invites that aren't accommodating an equal playing field at an international level. This is nothing new, but you are saying a lot of inaccurate things to go with it. | ||
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noaki
Germany145 Posts
i'm curious how this will turn out, maybe this can be the old wc3l for sc2 since esl kinda seems to not think about a sc2l | ||
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hakhu
Germany43 Posts
It's their tournament and their continent. Why should they have to suffer the inconvenience! Outrage! It's the fault of the other teams that they live in Europe, Asia etc. It's their choice to live there, so they will just have to face the consequences. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
PS: I hate being bullshitted by managers, too. | ||
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Torpedo.Vegas
United States1890 Posts
On May 03 2011 16:23 Defacer wrote: Nazgul: Sounds like there is a major communication problem. That's a shame. IdrA's straightforward, non-evasive explanation makes a lot more sense. PS: I hate being bullshitted by managers, too. I don't know if EG was bullshitting them. Could be that the administration gave a more logistical reason for not doing the server switch suggestion, while Idra and other competitors gave the pro-player reasoning for not wanting to do the server switching. Different perspectives on the same stance. | ||
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MementoMori
Canada419 Posts
On May 03 2011 14:49 IdrA wrote: na to eu is playable, na to korea is not. just about any competitive player who has played across both will tell you that. the goal is producing a non-asian team league, as that is something that can be done well given the current state of battle.net. a truly international online league is not feasible right now. compare tsl and nasl results to the gsl world cup results. players playing from korea on foreign server's results are meaningless. including that kind of situation in a tournament is silly. liquid received an invitation because they are clearly one of the top non korean teams. but accommodating their choice to have players in korea lowers the quality of the league, which is unacceptable. I agree with you. To be completely honest I think some members of Team Liquid aren't conducting themselves in this thread in the way I've always greatly respected them for. Since TL would have provided accounts for cross server play, the issue really comes down to is this a NA tournament or a world (at least non-asian) tournament. I don't think having a non-asian tournament is a problem, it's EG's tournament they should be able to run it however they want. If TL didn't want to participate because of cross server play then that's their choice but I don't see how that means that EG didn't accommodate them to the extent to cause all of this arguing. Sure, it means EG didn't go out of their way to accommodate, but I don't feel they're required to. Again, it's their tournament! | ||
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Atlas_550
United States180 Posts
I'm going to be completely honest here. But this is really uncalled for. The only reason I am bring it up is because no one else even bothered to mention it in the remaining 25 pages. Everyone has a right to think and the poster you are quoting is taking the text he is given and trying to make an understanding of it. Insulting someone, telling someone to not do something and basically being an ass about it really is dumb. As for the rest of the thread, I feel like things have been going in circles since page 18 or so. But I want to touch on some of the 2v2 stuff that has been talked about. First off, how are there impossible to beat race combos in 2v2? I'm a master leaguer with a few different race combos in 2v2 and I can say that there is no impossible combo to beat. Heck, I've had more success playing with another person in a zz team who was competent at z than playing some other "unbeatable" combos like pz with the proxy gate ling rush. Sometimes it actually comes down to something called "not-panicing" and "patience". And I've actually had alot of fun commentating 2v2s in certain league formats because there are alot of factors in a 2v2 that people don't account for because they don't understand some of the finer points of a 2v2. lemme ask you this... What happens when two "unbeatable" strategies meet eachother? Also, what happens after the first game you use the "unbeatable" stragety? Because I hate to tell people this, but there's a way to beat every strat in 2v2 and this whole "unbeatable" and "impossible" concept needs to go out the window (1s included) if anyone expects to get anywhere with this game. | ||
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Nifel
706 Posts
Anyway, at the end of the day lag is still a factor and the Korean scene is, without a shade of doubt, at least two steps ahead of the foreign scene on the whole. But the World Cup results are not a 100% accurate representation of the skill gap. That's all I'm saying. | ||
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