Finally. For myself, I had been curious when this issue was first brought up during the election mostly because of him refusing to respond, but now that he has released a long form, unless an expert can prove it's a fake, everyone can now shut up about the issue.
As for the arizona law, I don't think there's anything wrong with requiring a birth certificate as a requirement to be considered for candidacy since it will stop this kind of thing from happening again.
Edit: People calling Americans idiots doesn't really help the thread. I think discussion about the birth requirements, and the political implications of obama's speech are more interesting and help the discussion instead.
Need an obligatory Poll Now that Obama has released the certificate, where do you stand?
Poll: What do you think of this information?
I never doubted it in the first place (906)
89%
I still believe it's a fake (87)
9%
I had some doubts, but now I'm sure. (21)
2%
I didn't believe it until now (9)
1%
1023 total votes
Your vote: What do you think of this information?
(Vote): I never doubted it in the first place (Vote): I had some doubts, but now I'm sure. (Vote): I didn't believe it until now (Vote): I still believe it's a fake
Conspiracy theories: they can never be slain. Now the evidence will be too perfect and clearly faked. No amount of evidence can ever put a true believer to bed.
I don't even know why he did this, anyone thinking he wasn't born in the united states won't change their mind no matter what he does... cause theyre fucking crazy.
On April 28 2011 01:12 MangoTango wrote: Conspiracy theories: they can never be slain. Now the evidence will be too perfect and clearly faked. No amount of evidence can ever put a true believer to bed.
Yeah that's the hilarious/disheartening part. Ultimately, if someone was actually convinced that Obama was not American-born, no amount of documentation will convince him or her otherwise, even though documentation is exactly what they've been clamoring for.
I feel pretty bad for Obama that he felt like he had to release this information.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/04/27/president-obamas-long-form-birth-certificate Makes it seem like he actually had to make the Hawai administration make a long term birth certificate for him since normally citizens of Hawai don't get them just to shut nut jobs up. Maybe that can be the conspiracy theorists new angle Since he has a "birth certificate" that no other citizen of Hawai has then its clearly fake and he is actually kenyan.
No offence americans but I'm beginning to hate republicans more and more, they weren't always soulless assholes who could never win an argument without having a monologue or slander their opponent.
But this is fucking appalling, how the hell can anyone tolerate their own president having to defend himself against such retarded and indignifying falsehoods.
Can the USA fail already so we can all learn Chinese and join the Chinese collective -_-
I can't believe Obama actually released this. It's absolutely ridiculous that there was so much pressure for this to happen. What he released previously is enough proof for the federal government. Like others have said, the fact that the long form has finally been released isn't going to detract those doubters. There are just going to be more excuses.
On April 28 2011 01:06 darmousseh wrote: As for the arizona law, I don't think there's anything wrong with requiring a birth certificate as a requirement to be considered for candidacy since it will stop this kind of thing from happening again.
Yes, there isn't anything wrong with that. At the federal level. The issue people are having is that the law is an Arizona law. It's pretty ridiculous that a presidential candidate would have to show proof to the federal government to run and then show it to Arizona to be put on the Arizona ballot. And the Arizona law isn't going to stop this sort of shenanigans from happening again.
Suppose that a presidential candidate doesn't provide proof to the state of Arizona and is thus not in the ballot for that state, can that person still continue to run? I mean they can still win the electoral vote without a single state. This would be an interesting situation.
When someone asserts something crazy, you have two viable options:
1) Simply ignore their assertions and move on with rational individuals.
2) Take advantage of their stupidity to win an easy argument, score cheap political points, or vilify your detractors.
The fact that the media continually brings this issue up again and again is simply a way to take a cheap shot and paint right-wingers as racist batshit-crazy lunatics. Are some of them nuts? Of course. There are nutjobs in every group in the world. But we seem to be very selective about when we decide to focus our attention on them.
EDIT: And here we go.... Eating it right out of their hands.
On April 28 2011 01:19 Krehlmar wrote: No offence americans but I'm beginning to hate republicans more and more, they weren't always soulless assholes who could never win an argument without having a monologue or slander their opponent.
But this is fucking appalling, how the hell can anyone tolerate their own president having to defend himself against such retarded and indignifying falsehoods.
On April 28 2011 01:25 thehitman wrote: its fake, but its the white house no one can prove its fake.
You must be some sort of expert on Hawaiian Birth Certificates ... what gave it away? Where did they mess up? I'm just an everyday kinda' guy -- what should I look for that proves it's fake?
Its a potentially smart political move. Perfect situation to intentionally distract people/media from timely issues like the Federal press conference and other goodies in the near future. Smoke and mirrors if you will, its got nothing to do with Obama wanting to clear it up.
That being said, it doesn't seem to take any of the possible long term consequences into account.
On a side note, Free Republic doesn't think its real. Obviously a fake because there are so many white spaces on the form.
On April 28 2011 01:24 eight.BiT wrote: Keep in mind the people who are doubting him have been doubting him for the past 3+ years. It's not like any proof is going to change their minds..
On April 28 2011 01:25 garbanzo wrote: I can't believe Obama actually released this. It's absolutely ridiculous that there was so much pressure for this to happen. What he released previously is enough proof for the federal government. Like others have said, the fact that the long form has finally been released isn't going to detract those doubters. There are just going to be more excuses.
On April 28 2011 01:06 darmousseh wrote: As for the arizona law, I don't think there's anything wrong with requiring a birth certificate as a requirement to be considered for candidacy since it will stop this kind of thing from happening again.
Yes, there isn't anything wrong with that. At the federal level. The issue people are having is that the law is an Arizona law. It's pretty ridiculous that a presidential candidate would have to show proof to the federal government to run and then show it to Arizona to be put on the Arizona ballot. And the Arizona law isn't going to stop this sort of shenanigans from happening again.
Suppose that a presidential candidate doesn't provide proof to the state of Arizona and is thus not in the ballot for that state, can that person still continue to run? I mean they can still win the electoral vote without a single state. This would be an interesting situation.
Law Requirements to be president are created by the feds, but are enforced through the states via a process of applying to be president. They already have to confirm their birth status by writing on a form, attaching a birth certificate copy is not a problem.
It makes me sad to realize how important this issue has been to so many people. Really helps to prove how shallow and uninformed most people are. Along with the fact that this has only been an issue because of his ethnicity. Yet another reason why politics disgust me. If all of the energy spent on useless debates like this was spent on actual policies that mattered things would move forward so much faster, stupid humans.
On April 28 2011 01:26 jdseemoreglass wrote: When someone asserts something crazy, you have two viable options:
1) Simply ignore their assertions and move on with rational individuals.
2) Take advantage of their stupidity to win an easy argument, score cheap political points, or vilify your detractors.
The fact that the media continually brings this issue up again and again is simply a way to take a cheap shot and paint right-wingers as racist batshit-crazy lunatics. Are some of them nuts? Of course. There are nutjobs in every group in the world. But we seem to be very selective about when we decide to focus our attention on them.
You're saying that the media is focusing on this to make the right wing look crazy? Wow. I.. wow...
On April 28 2011 01:26 jdseemoreglass wrote: When someone asserts something crazy, you have two viable options:
1) Simply ignore their assertions and move on with rational individuals.
2) Take advantage of their stupidity to win an easy argument, score cheap political points, or vilify your detractors.
The fact that the media continually brings this issue up again and again is simply a way to take a cheap shot and paint right-wingers as racist batshit-crazy lunatics. Are some of them nuts? Of course. There are nutjobs in every group in the world. But we seem to be very selective about when we decide to focus our attention on them.
You're saying that the media is focusing on this to make the right wing look crazy? Wow. I.. wow...
I would respond to your argument but I don't think that "Wow. I.. wow..." actually represents an argument. We could talk all day about left-wingers who are convinced that Bush orchestrated 9/11, but you don't hear that daily in the news, despite how many people actually adhere to that belief. It is absolutely about politics.
In my opinion he better ignored those rumors about his birth because clearly the ones who made this up will still believe in it , so why fuel the fire ?!?!?!
on a side note since im not from the US: how big was this conspiracy theorie in the united states just some gag or did it fill the media for weeks ?
On April 28 2011 01:25 thehitman wrote: its fake, but its the white house no one can prove its fake.
Hahaha what?!?!? Did you really think there was a big government conspiracy to get Obama elected? Newsflash: Every President is exactly the same! The president gets controlled by the people around him, has been, and will be for as long as we are in this democratic-republic.
I guarantee people like this wouldn't be having these thoughts if Obama was a white guy from Hawaii, just saying
Aren't there more important issues at hand? How's the aftermath of that Mexican golf oil-leak coming? How's Irak going? How's Libia going? How's your healthreform going? Etc etc...
On April 28 2011 01:25 thehitman wrote: its fake, but its the white house no one can prove its fake.
Hahaha what?!?!? Did you really think there was a big government conspiracy to get Obama elected? Newsflash: Every President is exactly the same! The president gets controlled by the people around him, has been, and will be for as long as we are in this democratic-republic.
I guarantee people like this wouldn't be having these thoughts if Obama was a white guy from Hawaii, just saying
or a white guy from Texas, more importantly. Imaging if Obama had the poor speech like Bush did...Just imagine what conservatives would cook up if Obama had the same mental capacity as Bush.
On April 28 2011 01:33 WaZuP wrote: In my opinion he better ignored those rumors about his birth because clearly the ones who made this up will still believe in it , so why fuel the fire ?!?!?!
on a side note since im not from the US: how big was this conspiracy theorie in the united states just some gag or did it fill the media for weeks ?
It's based on the view that "If someone refuses to answer a question, it's probably because they are lying". I would say a good 1 in 10 people I know are conspiracy theorists, and i would say it's split 50/50 republicans democrats.
On April 28 2011 01:26 jdseemoreglass wrote: When someone asserts something crazy, you have two viable options:
1) Simply ignore their assertions and move on with rational individuals.
2) Take advantage of their stupidity to win an easy argument, score cheap political points, or vilify your detractors.
The fact that the media continually brings this issue up again and again is simply a way to take a cheap shot and paint right-wingers as racist batshit-crazy lunatics. Are some of them nuts? Of course. There are nutjobs in every group in the world. But we seem to be very selective about when we decide to focus our attention on them.
You're saying that the media is focusing on this to make the right wing look crazy? Wow. I.. wow...
I would respond to your argument but I don't think that "Wow. I.. wow..." actually represents an argument. We could talk all day about left-wingers who are convinced that Bush orchestrated 9/11, but you don't hear that daily in the news, despite how many people actually adhere to that belief. It is absolutely about politics.
I'm honestly not a big poster when it comes to issues like this because I don't post as well as a lot of people here.. but I'll just go ahead and say that picture on p1 from Fox News kinda shows the right wing and it's media doing a fine job of making itself look insane without any need for the liberal media's help.
On April 28 2011 01:26 jdseemoreglass wrote: When someone asserts something crazy, you have two viable options:
1) Simply ignore their assertions and move on with rational individuals.
2) Take advantage of their stupidity to win an easy argument, score cheap political points, or vilify your detractors.
The fact that the media continually brings this issue up again and again is simply a way to take a cheap shot and paint right-wingers as racist batshit-crazy lunatics. Are some of them nuts? Of course. There are nutjobs in every group in the world. But we seem to be very selective about when we decide to focus our attention on them.
You're saying that the media is focusing on this to make the right wing look crazy? Wow. I.. wow...
I would respond to your argument but I don't think that "Wow. I.. wow..." actually represents an argument. We could talk all day about left-wingers who are convinced that Bush orchestrated 9/11, but you don't hear that daily in the news, despite how many people actually adhere to that belief. It is absolutely about politics.
I think it's a little different when one of the main proponents of the birther argument is one of the highest-polling republican presidential candidates....
On April 28 2011 01:35 Rebel_lion wrote: Why wasn't this an issue when he was a senator? -.-
Senators don't need to be born within the US, but Presidents do.
On April 28 2011 01:33 WaZuP wrote: In my opinion he better ignored those rumors about his birth because clearly the ones who made this up will still believe in it , so why fuel the fire ?!?!?!
on a side note since im not from the US: how big was this conspiracy theorie in the united states just some gag or did it fill the media for weeks ?
This issue was as big as the media tried to make it. It's like if someone got a slap on the wrist for illegally sending their child to the wrong school and then the media reported that "homeless mother may get 20 years in prison for wrong address."
also if he wanted to he could make a Birth Certificate i mean he is the president after all. not a birther but i'm just saying if he really wanted to he could.
On April 28 2011 01:39 Batch wrote: As someone watching american politics from the side line I am just confused with this whole thing.
How could this even get this far?
Why is it a big deal that the president have to be born in the USA in the first place?
Don't the politics got other things to worry about?
It's a Constitutional requirement for the President of the United States to be a born citizen.
It's not a constitutional requirement to release it and still have to release it because people are idiotic and fall victim to crazy conspiracy theories.
It makes you feel all warm inside knowing your world leaders work on such serious and immediate issues. Of course the most essential attribute of a president is knowing where he is born. Had he been born somewhere else all trust would be gone...Horrible thought, I say. Well I'm glad we can put this to rest & the next burning issue can get some attention.
On April 28 2011 01:33 WaZuP wrote: In my opinion he better ignored those rumors about his birth because clearly the ones who made this up will still believe in it , so why fuel the fire ?!?!?!
on a side note since im not from the US: how big was this conspiracy theorie in the united states just some gag or did it fill the media for weeks ?
This issue was as big as the media tried to make it. It's like if someone got a slap on the wrist for illegally sending their child to the wrong school and then the media reported that "homeless mother may get 20 years in prison for wrong address."
You seem to forget that high ranking Republicans and right wing talking heads have pushed this issue more than anyone else. Bachmann, Palin, Trump, Tea Party leaders, Fox News Channel crew come to mind immediately. There are dozens more but I don't remember all of them. I doubt that it's fair to say that the media is pushing this issue as an attack on Republicans when Republicans themselves are the ones pushing the issue. That makes no sense.
"I'd like to know how does he get into Harvard, how does he get into Colombia if he isn't a very good student," Trump said, asking why the president doesn't release his college records from Occidental College.
"If he wants to release it that's fine, if he doesn't want to release it that's fine too. But the word is he wasn't a very good student," Trump added.
On April 28 2011 01:45 holynorth wrote: Just curious, but how is this legitimate proof? I do believe he was born an American citizen, but couldn't someone just make this certificate?
You can test the quality of the paper and ink for its age and source of origin though.
I know there is a pretty strong anti-Obama sentiment on this site but I have to say that I find this kind of thing to be a VERY good sign. There are always extremists, but they usually don't get enough momentum to pass a law like in Arizona or put forth a reasonably popular presidential candidate like Trump (i literally laughed out loud as I typed that). What this indicates is that more moderate conservatives who usually are able to find more legitimate criticisms are desperate. A very good sign indeed (for Obama and those who support his policies at least).
People are acting surprised that this is still an issue. Let me blow your mind: the majority of Republicans and their frontrunner nominee at the time (Trump) currently believe Obama is not an American-born citizen.
Of course this shouldn't matter in the first place, but the the fact that the majority of one of our leading two parties is so stupid should worry everyone.
On April 28 2011 01:48 Velocirapture wrote: I know there is a pretty strong anti-Obama sentiment on this site but I have to say that I find this kind of thing to be a VERY good sign. There are always extremists, but they usually don't get enough momentum to pass a law like in Arizona or put forth a reasonably popular presidential candidate like Trump (i literally laughed out loud as I typed that). What this indicates is that more moderate conservatives who usually are able to find more legitimate criticisms are desperate. A very good sign indeed (for Obama and those who support his policies at least).
He did it because a lot of the doubters are independents who probably will change their mind on him now that he has released it. I think he waited until now to use it as a tool for his next campaign.
On April 28 2011 01:23 Oxygen wrote: where's the "does it even matter?" option?
This. I can't believe how much attention this is getting. I hope people (especially politicians) can now focus on stuff to actually improve the life of their supporters.
edit:
Donald Trump says
"I'd like to know how does he get into Harvard, how does he get into Colombia if he isn't a very good student," Trump said, asking why the president doesn't release his college records from Occidental College.
"If he wants to release it that's fine, if he doesn't want to release it that's fine too. But the word is he wasn't a very good student," Trump added.
On April 28 2011 01:45 holynorth wrote: Just curious, but how is this legitimate proof? I do believe he was born an American citizen, but couldn't someone just make this certificate?
You can test the quality of the paper and ink for its age and source of origin though.
For a fifty year old piece of paper, it looks to be in perfect shape.
I also feel compelled to clear up some misconceptions about the Arizona law. First of all, any such law is unconstitutional because it must be passed at a federal level, not a state level. Individual states have no say in who runs for president. Basically, no candidate would have to pay attention to it at all and the law would simply be symbolic. Secondly, it's doubtful Obama released his certificate because of the "useless" Arizona law; he probably did it because Trump was running on what was basically a single-issue platform to get to the top of GOP polling.
On April 28 2011 01:48 Velocirapture wrote: I know there is a pretty strong anti-Obama sentiment on this site but I have to say that I find this kind of thing to be a VERY good sign. There are always extremists, but they usually don't get enough momentum to pass a law like in Arizona or put forth a reasonably popular presidential candidate like Trump (i literally laughed out loud as I typed that). What this indicates is that more moderate conservatives who usually are able to find more legitimate criticisms are desperate. A very good sign indeed (for Obama and those who support his policies at least).
He did it because a lot of the doubters are independents who probably will change their mind on him now that he has released it. I think he waited until now to use it as a tool for his next campaign.
They will probably think he forged it, easy thing to do for a president anyways.
On April 28 2011 01:39 Batch wrote: As someone watching american politics from the side line I am just confused with this whole thing.
How could this even get this far?
Why is it a big deal that the president have to be born in the USA in the first place?
Don't the politics got other things to worry about?
It's a Constitutional requirement for the President of the United States to be a born citizen.
It's not a constitutional requirement to release it and still have to release it because people are idiotic and fall victim to crazy conspiracy theories.
Never said it was. I was explaining to a Swede, who said why the fuss over Obama being a born citizen, that the Constitution requires the President to be a born citizen.
i feel like most intelligent people never questioned his birth certificate, and those who dont believe it will just claim this is a fake because theyre that stubborn/ignorant
On April 28 2011 01:52 holynorth wrote: For a fifty year old piece of paper, it looks to be in perfect shape.
Oh Jesus Christ. It's a copy of the original vital records. It says facsimile right on it. Hawaii digitized their birth records years ago. When he handed out copies to the press, did you expect them to be spit out of a replicator from Star Trek?
Nothing will satisfy a conspiracy theorist. They're like apocalypse cults whose faith just gets stronger with every failed prophecy.
On April 28 2011 01:52 holynorth wrote: For a fifty year old piece of paper, it looks to be in perfect shape.
Oh Jesus Christ. It's a copy of the original vital records. It says facsimile right on it. Hawaii digitized their birth records years ago. When he handed out copies to the press, did you expect them to be spit out of a replicator from Star Trek?
Nothing will satisfy a conspiracy theorist. They're like apocalypse cults whose faith just gets stronger with every failed prophecy.
Before you embarrass yourself further, at least look at what I was quoting.
On April 28 2011 01:23 Oxygen wrote: where's the "does it even matter?" option?
This. I can't believe how much attention this is getting. I hope people (especially politicians) can now focus on stuff to actually improve the life of their supporters.
Exactly, since when did our country go from being a melting pot of immigrants and cultures to a place where "you have to be born here" to aspire to the highest position in America... this "birther" thing should really be raising a debate on whether we should keep this requirement of birth in the country in order to run for president. (Yes I understand someone should atleast have citizenship and a reasonable amount of residency time in the country)
On April 28 2011 01:48 Velocirapture wrote: I know there is a pretty strong anti-Obama sentiment on this site but I have to say that I find this kind of thing to be a VERY good sign. There are always extremists, but they usually don't get enough momentum to pass a law like in Arizona or put forth a reasonably popular presidential candidate like Trump (i literally laughed out loud as I typed that). What this indicates is that more moderate conservatives who usually are able to find more legitimate criticisms are desperate. A very good sign indeed (for Obama and those who support his policies at least).
This is a website, which is on the internet, and the internet seems to be largely liberal, so I would be surprised to find a lot of anti-obama sentiment on here. Especially since I think a lot of people are at least decently intelligent on this site, and thus would hold more liberal viewpoints.
"I'd like to know how does he get into Harvard, how does he get into Colombia if he isn't a very good student," Trump said, asking why the president doesn't release his college records from Occidental College.
"If he wants to release it that's fine, if he doesn't want to release it that's fine too. But the word is he wasn't a very good student," Trump added.
Trump is such a tool.
Cue 6 months from now: "I heard he had 3 cavities when he was in his teens... if he wants to release his dental records that's fine, if he doesn't that's fine too. But the word is he didn't floss properly."
"I'd like to know how does he get into Harvard, how does he get into Colombia if he isn't a very good student," Trump said, asking why the president doesn't release his college records from Occidental College.
"If he wants to release it that's fine, if he doesn't want to release it that's fine too. But the word is he wasn't a very good student," Trump added.
Trump is such a tool.
Cue 6 months from now: "I heard he had 3 cavities when he was in his teens... if he wants to release his dental records that's fine, if he doesn't that's fine too. But the word is he didn't floss properly."
On April 28 2011 01:19 Krehlmar wrote: No offence americans but I'm beginning to hate republicans more and more, they weren't always soulless assholes who could never win an argument without having a monologue or slander their opponent.
But this is fucking appalling, how the hell can anyone tolerate their own president having to defend himself against such retarded and indignifying falsehoods.
Can the USA fail already so we can all learn Chinese and join the Chinese collective -_-
When the question first came up, I was like, "Huh, that could be weird and not good." But didn't the Obama campaign or somebody release like the original "short form" or w/e years ago? At any rate there seemed like enough proof (and anyway even if there wasn't it clearly wasn't going to actually change things) that I haven't really cared about it for a while and this is just the icing on the "totally not an issue" cake.
On April 28 2011 01:52 hmunkey wrote: I also feel compelled to clear up some misconceptions about the Arizona law. First of all, any such law is unconstitutional because it must be passed at a federal level, not a state level. Individual states have no say in who runs for president. Basically, no candidate would have to pay attention to it at all and the law would simply be symbolic. Secondly, it's doubtful Obama released his certificate because of the "useless" Arizona law; he probably did it because Trump was running on what was basically a single-issue platform to get to the top of GOP polling.
Not really. Given that the electoral college still exists, in legal terms states (still) have power over who gets on the ballot. Or course usually it's a formality - get your party endorsement/signatures/fees/whatever and *yawn* but process does vary from state to state. I'm not sure what would happen if a state refused to put a national candidate on the ballot, but in theory they've got that power.
Where's the option "What differance does it make?"
It's funny how insignificant news gets blown out of proportions which let the real news slip under the radar.
I'm certain that the Obama administraion is grateful about people debating stuff like Obama's birth certificate, 9/11 conspiracys, the Kennedy assasination, area 51 ect. so that we don't look at what's actually happening in the world. So that we don't actually get concerned about stuff that's right infront of us in the newspapers.
To be frank, I don't care where someone comes from. If they can run the United States, the country I live and was born in, and run it well, then for me, it's not even an issue.
Donald Trump tells the press they are protecting President Obama.
"I'd like to know how does he get into Harvard, how does he get into Colombia if he isn't a very good student," Donald Trump told the press this morning in New Hampshire.
"If he wants to release it that's fine, if he doesn't want to release it that's fine too. But the word is he wasn't a very good student," Trump added.
You didn't seriously think this was over, did you?
On April 28 2011 02:07 Reaper9 wrote: To be frank, I don't care where someone comes from. If they can run the United States, the country I live and was born in, and run it well, then for me, it's not even an issue.
I agree(not necessarily on Obama being a good president though), but the constitution says otherwise. In my opinion, the most logical way to do it is a constitutional amendment removing the requirements of being born in the country, and having being born of a US citizen or legal immigrant working on citizenship be sufficient. Should probably up the years of residency requirement up to 20 years as well.
Donald Trump tells the press they are protecting President Obama.
"I'd like to know how does he get into Harvard, how does he get into Colombia if he isn't a very good student," Donald Trump told the press this morning in New Hampshire.
"If he wants to release it that's fine, if he doesn't want to release it that's fine too. But the word is he wasn't a very good student," Trump added.
You didn't seriously think this was over, did you?
On April 28 2011 02:07 Reaper9 wrote: To be frank, I don't care where someone comes from. If they can run the United States, the country I live and was born in, and run it well, then for me, it's not even an issue.
I agree(not necessarily on Obama being a good president though), but the constitution says otherwise. In my opinion, the most logical way to do it is a constitutional amendment removing the requirements of being born in the country, and having being born of a US citizen or legal immigrant working on citizenship be sufficient. Should probably up the years of residency requirement up to 20 years as well.
Are you kidding me? There are more important things going on in this country than Obama's birth certificate and college records. The government would not put him into office if he were not born here. I think this whole ordeal is stupid and racist towards him. "He's a different color that means he could never be born here." People who believe it is fake are stupid. And seriously they are not going to stop this? Start worrying about the budget that's going to run out in 3 months, not Obama's college records.
Donald Trump tells the press they are protecting President Obama.
"I'd like to know how does he get into Harvard, how does he get into Colombia if he isn't a very good student," Donald Trump told the press this morning in New Hampshire.
"If he wants to release it that's fine, if he doesn't want to release it that's fine too. But the word is he wasn't a very good student," Trump added.
You didn't seriously think this was over, did you?
I can't believe he even dignified this with a response. When even Bill O'Reilly is calling the whole issue absurd you have to know there's no merit to it.
Donald Trump tells the press they are protecting President Obama.
"I'd like to know how does he get into Harvard, how does he get into Colombia if he isn't a very good student," Donald Trump told the press this morning in New Hampshire.
"If he wants to release it that's fine, if he doesn't want to release it that's fine too. But the word is he wasn't a very good student," Trump added.
You didn't seriously think this was over, did you?
You can already tell where that's going:
'Obama only got into good school because of affirmative action and his sad life story made into a college essay!' - or something along those lines.
It's time for obama to strike back with a major issue too: Donald's hair. Real/fake? Coloured/not? Professional hairstylers? These are the kind of questions that need to be answered before anyone can vote for a candidate.
Trump should just crawl back under the rock he came from and focus on getting more of his companies to go bankrupt.
Donald Trump tells the press they are protecting President Obama.
"I'd like to know how does he get into Harvard, how does he get into Colombia if he isn't a very good student," Donald Trump told the press this morning in New Hampshire.
"If he wants to release it that's fine, if he doesn't want to release it that's fine too. But the word is he wasn't a very good student," Trump added.
You didn't seriously think this was over, did you?
On April 28 2011 02:07 Reaper9 wrote: To be frank, I don't care where someone comes from. If they can run the United States, the country I live and was born in, and run it well, then for me, it's not even an issue.
I agree(not necessarily on Obama being a good president though), but the constitution says otherwise. In my opinion, the most logical way to do it is a constitutional amendment removing the requirements of being born in the country, and having being born of a US citizen or legal immigrant working on citizenship be sufficient. Should probably up the years of residency requirement up to 20 years as well.
Donald Trump tells the press they are protecting President Obama.
"I'd like to know how does he get into Harvard, how does he get into Colombia if he isn't a very good student," Donald Trump told the press this morning in New Hampshire.
"If he wants to release it that's fine, if he doesn't want to release it that's fine too. But the word is he wasn't a very good student," Trump added.
You didn't seriously think this was over, did you?
I don't see why it matters, I mean he's already the president either way. What doesn't make sense to me is if they had it, why are they just releasing it now?
On April 28 2011 02:22 Jonoman92 wrote: I don't see why it matters, I mean he's already the president either way. What doesn't make sense to me is if they had it, why are they just releasing it now?
There's 5 pages that have mentioned this. He released the "short hand" certificate of live birth in 2008.
On April 28 2011 02:22 Jonoman92 wrote: I don't see why it matters, I mean he's already the president either way. What doesn't make sense to me is if they had it, why are they just releasing it now?
So this story is in the news, and not the rest of his failures. Or how terrible the economy is as well as our foreign policy.
Congratulations. You got the birth certificate and humiliated the presidency in the face of the world.
All Americans lost when the president of the USA was forced to answer to slander started by morons. I hope the year long fantasy that Obama was a socialist jihadist baby planted here for world domination was fun and i hope it was worth trampelling over the dignity of your highest office.
If i was Barack Obama i wouldn't have adressed this bullshit and i certainly would not have dignified it by releasing this birth certificate.
The law that only American born people can be President is out-dated anyway.
I get the impression that most of the people who criticized the 'birthers' didn't really care whether or not he was born in the U.S..
I didn't find the discussion interesting, but what was galling to me is the snottiness that Obama and the Democrats showed to anyone questioning it. 'How dare you question his citizenship!' Just like how dare we question his ties to groups like the Black Panthers or that ridiculous racist preacher.
Clearly everyone who doesn't like Obama is just a bigoted racist.
On April 28 2011 02:22 Jonoman92 wrote: I don't see why it matters, I mean he's already the president either way. What doesn't make sense to me is if they had it, why are they just releasing it now?
So this story is in the news, and not the rest of his failures. Or how terrible the economy is as well as our foreign policy.
How do you even respond to someone like this?
You're saying that Obama released his birth certificate again after being continually attacked for 3 years about his nationality in an effort to distract the media from other news?
I need some Tin Foil asap, man.
EDIT
On April 28 2011 02:28 Jerubaal wrote: I get the impression that most of the people who criticized the 'birthers' didn't really care whether or not he was born in the U.S..
I didn't find the discussion interesting, but what was galling to me is the snottiness that Obama and the Democrats showed to anyone questioning it. 'How dare you question his citizenship!' Just like how dare we question his ties to groups like the Black Panthers or that ridiculous racist preacher.
Clearly everyone who doesn't like Obama is just a bigoted racist.
Or maybe cause he released it 3 years ago, and people never gave it up..
On April 28 2011 02:28 Jerubaal wrote: I get the impression that most of the people who criticized the 'birthers' didn't really care whether or not he was born in the U.S..
I didn't find the discussion interesting, but what was galling to me is the snottiness that Obama and the Democrats showed to anyone questioning it. 'How dare you question his citizenship!' Just like how dare we question his ties to groups like the Black Panthers or that ridiculous racist preacher.
Clearly everyone who doesn't like Obama is just a bigoted racist.
This discussion would never have begun if his name wasn't Barrack Hussein Obama
On April 28 2011 02:22 couches wrote: Can't believe he gave into the idiocy. He probably was pressured into it with re-election in mind.
His name would not be on the voting ballot in a few states had he not done this. That was probably the biggest issue that pushed him into doing it.
pretty sure it was only that pisshole arizona, which is really only notable because of that sheriff who makes an absolute mockery of the legal system whenever possible, and because it is home to the balloon blownin, straightin ownin TL forums super poster, FUDDX
On April 28 2011 02:28 Jerubaal wrote: I get the impression that most of the people who criticized the 'birthers' didn't really care whether or not he was born in the U.S..
I didn't find the discussion interesting, but what was galling to me is the snottiness that Obama and the Democrats showed to anyone questioning it. 'How dare you question his citizenship!' Just like how dare we question his ties to groups like the Black Panthers or that ridiculous racist preacher.
Clearly everyone who doesn't like Obama is just a bigoted racist.
This discussion would never have begun if his name wasn't Barrack Hussein Obama
We has winner! 18% of Americans believed he is Muslim the last poll I saw.. and that was last year.
On April 28 2011 02:27 zalz wrote: Congratulations. You got the birth certificate and humiliated the presidency in the face of the world.
All Americans lost when the president of the USA was forced to answer to slander started by morons. I hope the year long fantasy that Obama was a socialist jihadist baby planted here for world domination was fun and i hope it was worth trampelling over the dignity of your highest office.
If i was Barack Obama i wouldn't have adressed this bullshit and i certainly would not have dignified it by releasing this birth certificate.
The law that only American born people can be President is out-dated anyway.
This law protects us against imperialism....
I'm glad he just did it, but I think its silly that trump is taking credit for getting him to post it. Nothing has changed.
On April 28 2011 02:22 Jonoman92 wrote: I don't see why it matters, I mean he's already the president either way. What doesn't make sense to me is if they had it, why are they just releasing it now?
So this story is in the news, and not the rest of his failures. Or how terrible the economy is as well as our foreign policy.
How do you even respond to someone like this?
You're saying that Obama released his birth certificate again after being continually attacked for 3 years about his nationality in an effort to distract the media from other news?
I need some Tin Foil asap, man.
I think he was more concerned about how something as ridiculous as questioning his citizenship gets more coverage by the media than his failures.
On April 28 2011 02:28 Jerubaal wrote: I get the impression that most of the people who criticized the 'birthers' didn't really care whether or not he was born in the U.S..
I didn't find the discussion interesting, but what was galling to me is the snottiness that Obama and the Democrats showed to anyone questioning it. 'How dare you question his citizenship!' Just like how dare we question his ties to groups like the Black Panthers or that ridiculous racist preacher.
Clearly everyone who doesn't like Obama is just a bigoted racist.
This discussion would never have begun if his name wasn't Barrack Hussein Obama
To some extent, probably. But sitting in Wright's Church for several years doesn't put much of a smiley face on his past.
On April 28 2011 01:19 Krehlmar wrote: No offence americans but I'm beginning to hate republicans more and more, they weren't always soulless assholes who could never win an argument without having a monologue or slander their opponent.
politicians will mold into whatever gives them power. as much as the republicans shouldn't be doing what they're doing its the people who enable it.
also, a lot of republicans are really intelligent and sensible people who really understand how money works and stick to their moderated, sensible values. except, there are a lot of bad republicans lately crawling out before 2012.
I'm not voting republican until they start supporting education, lessen support for prison systems and stop being such senseless assholes with the power they're given (at least in my state).
i cant believe people actual believe this bs still.... i mean as a joke... yeah..... but for real?
He didn't realease it because he didn't think it was an issue to give more fuel to, thinking that it would die off eventually, and it almost did until Trump started spouting nonsense. in the end, realeasing it was the only option to quell the morons who believe that Obama somehow managed to trick the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT in to letting him become president.... ffs.... presidential candidates get checked by every government agency, including CIA FBI and NSA..... if they weren't questioning his birth place, why should anyone else?
I mean the CIA et al aren't exactly known for allowing a crime to occur right under their noses, and pretending to be born in the US so u can be president is surely fraud of the highest order and they would have taken any serious evidence that he wasn't born in the US very seriously.... but of course.... it was all bullshit anyhow and they knew it.
Now people will claim the whitehouse manufacured evidence and paid the doctor (assuming he's still around) named to tow the line...... god damn some people in the US really are the stupidest people on earth, even a 5 year old can see there's no basis for this bs except for thinkly vieled Racism, if Obama were white... no one would question where he was born.
This is great and all, but can we get back to the real important issues? 8.9% unemployment, the trillions in deficit, the budget, and the debt ceiling?
It worries me greatly that "future president" Trump and other Tea Party birthers care so vehemently about this.
This should have been resolved a long time ago. The fact that he let this issue sit for two years just proves how much of a partisan hack Obama is. The president is supposed to elevate the national discussion. This whole issue should be nothing but an embarassment for everyone involved.
On April 28 2011 02:46 TOloseGT wrote: This is great and all, but can we get back to the real important issues? 8.9% unemployment, the trillions in deficit, the budget, and the debt ceiling?
It worries me greatly that "future president" Trump and other Tea Party birthers care so vehemently about this.
Trump is no conservative(just take a look at what he said during Bush's 8 years in office), and most of the Tea Party knows he was born in America. We're more concerned with the actual issues than something as meaningless as this.
On April 28 2011 02:48 winter017 wrote: This should have been resolved a long time ago. The fact that he let this issue sit for two years just proves how much of a partisan hack Obama is. The president is supposed to elevate the national discussion. This whole issue should be nothing but an embarassment for everyone involved.
It should've ended right when Hillary brought it up(as well as the "HE'S A MUSLIM" bit) in the primary.
More likely to be an atheist than a Muslim, but that's just my 2 cents. Though now I just think he's got some sort of warped, fringe-y Christian beliefs.
On April 28 2011 01:19 Krehlmar wrote: No offence americans but I'm beginning to hate republicans more and more, they weren't always soulless assholes who could never win an argument without having a monologue or slander their opponent.
But this is fucking appalling, how the hell can anyone tolerate their own president having to defend himself against such retarded and indignifying falsehoods.
Can the USA fail already so we can all learn Chinese and join the Chinese collective -_-
none taken bro
a lot of old people need to die off in waves before american politics can ever become sane again
Poll results really tell the story. People who believed he was telling the truth before still believe him and people who thought he was lying before still think he's lying. In other words, birthers were making baseless accusations which could not be disproved by evidence because it *could* be fake.
On April 28 2011 02:48 winter017 wrote: This should have been resolved a long time ago. The fact that he let this issue sit for two years just proves how much of a partisan hack Obama is. The president is supposed to elevate the national discussion. This whole issue should be nothing but an embarassment for everyone involved.
What is this, a joke?
This proves how much birthers have lost sight of reality. The President should never have given the birthers his birth certificate, but he did it so future discussions won't be marred by inconsequential nonsense.
On April 28 2011 02:48 winter017 wrote: This should have been resolved a long time ago. The fact that he let this issue sit for two years just proves how much of a partisan hack Obama is. The president is supposed to elevate the national discussion. This whole issue should be nothing but an embarassment for everyone involved.
He's a partisan hack for actually doing his job and ignoring all the bullshit the republicans spew each day? The guy has to deal with a thousand issues, he RUNS THE DAMN COUNTRY and you expect him to spend time dealing with nonsense like his birth certificate? lol..... you have no idea how the real world works.
The only reason he released it now was because its taking up too much of the news cycle and there are far more important things to discuss, he is doing what he is supposed to do.... lead. Unlike Bush who would have spent two weeks proving he was born in the US, using every waking moment to show us some new evidence, pictures taken in the hospital, phone records blah blah.
You are right this should have been resolved long ago, when the first person said "I don't think Obama was born in the US" the person standing next to them should have hit them very hard and told them to shut up. Instead a bunch of republicans rallied around the idea for a while to try to swing an election, it failed.... so then they tried to use it to halt Obama's presidency, it failed. It almost died off, we almost were rid of it..... then the republican primary season started to approach and Trump started spouting it again...... backup up by fewer republicans this time, but still FOX news were banging the drum.....
the ones who kept this story going were REPUBLICANS and right wing news outlets (countered ultimately by Left/Center news outlets which just makes the issue worse), not Obama.... you really have no idea what you are talking about, its like you heard Glenn Beck say "Obama is a partisan hack" and thought "Hmm, I don't know what that means but if Glenn Beck says it, it must be true".
On April 28 2011 02:57 emythrel wrote: its like you heard Glenn Beck say "Obama is a partisan hack" and thought "Hmm, I don't know what that means but if Glenn Beck says it, it must be true".
Unfortunately this is how most people form their political opinions. Just replace Glenn Beck with whoever else has them brainwashed and you cover a lot of people.
On April 28 2011 02:22 couches wrote: Can't believe he gave into the idiocy. He probably was pressured into it with re-election in mind.
His name would not be on the voting ballot in a few states had he not done this. That was probably the biggest issue that pushed him into doing it.
AZ vetoed that ridiculousness. So if it was done with that in mind, it was done simply as a precaution in case other states try to hop on that bandwagon and actually succeed.
On April 28 2011 02:55 Suisen wrote: McCain wasn't born in the US. What is the issue?
It's like Obama denying he is a Muslim but never saying "So what!?
So racist.
McCain was born on a Military Base in Panama. As the base counts as US soil, he qualifies.
Well in the constitution is says they have to be "Natural Born American" i.e American from birth. That means if either of your parents are a US citizen, you are an american citizen from birth... no matter where you were born. The whole point of the law is so that people can't gain citizenship later in life and then be the head of state, it was intended to stop say a British born and raised man moving to the US, becoming a citizen and then ruining the American way of life with his evil royalist ways.
In reality, if I had been born in the US, therefore a US citizen, I could live in Asia for until the age of 25, then move to the US and eventually become president, but someone who was born in Asia, moved to the US as a baby, grew up there, in the US culture, can't become president..... what a stupid law that is.
Being born outside the US still makes you a Natural Born American, so long as one of your parents is a US citizen, only morons would interpret it any other way... unless they have other motives to do so.
Obama's mother is american, therefore he is.... end of story... no birth certificate needed.
Actually it's kind of sad to see the amount of resources and time spent with this subject when there are alot more issues around our society that should be clarified for the masses. Instead the networks concentrate in maintaning people ignorant and bombarding the news with meaningless reports.
/sarcasm Better put Bush back in the big seat since everybody knows he is indeed North American
On April 28 2011 02:48 winter017 wrote: This should have been resolved a long time ago. The fact that he let this issue sit for two years just proves how much of a partisan hack Obama is. The president is supposed to elevate the national discussion. This whole issue should be nothing but an embarassment for everyone involved.
How many times do I have to post that he released it 3 years ago too? Go figure you wouldn't even bother to read the thread (or even know anything about the issue) after posting bullshit like that.
You do realize that the Democrats wouldn't have let him lead their party if he wasn't actually a US citizen. The risk would be too big if all of a sudden Republicans could point out that he wasn't a citizen while he was running.
For those that say racism meh maybe, but if he was white and didn't want to show his birth certificate the story would still happen. Each side attempts to slander the other.
People just need something to be angry at, huh? This is part of the issue with politics now, people care waaay to much about trivial things. And it's on both ends, republicans were stupid to bring this up, and then it was blown up by democrats acting personally offended by it. As president you're going to have to face these silly claims, just address them, or have one of you many underlings address it, and we can all move on.
On April 28 2011 02:40 KurtistheTurtle wrote: also, a lot of republicans are really intelligent and sensible people who really understand how money works and stick to their moderated, sensible values. except, there are a lot of bad republicans lately crawling out before 2012.
You think this crap is new? Maybe a lot of people in this forum are too young to have remembered the politics of the mid-90s. We had a US congressman shooting a watermelon in his back yard to somehow prove that Vince Foster was assassinated by Bill Clinton to cover up for... something. There was a congressional investigation into Chelsea Clinton's goddamn slumber parties.
Ecclesiastes 1 3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
5 The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.
6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.
7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
8 All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
On April 28 2011 03:13 NoobSkills wrote: You do realize that the Democrats wouldn't have let him lead their party if he wasn't actually a US citizen. The risk would be too big if all of a sudden Republicans could point out that he wasn't a citizen while he was running.
For those that say racism meh maybe, but if he was white and didn't want to show his birth certificate the story would still happen. Each side attempts to slander the other.
If he was white there wouldn't be this question because his father wouldn't be Kenyan
At first I sort of cared about this whole ordeal, but then I realized. It doesn't matter all that much either way, and I don't give two shits about it. All it does is detract from all the things I have real issues with, which are his policies.
Yeah, won't convince birthers. Straight from Fox News' comments as I was reading their article:
There are still a couple of things that just don't make sense. 1. There are only two types of certificates, Birth Certificate and Certificate of Live Birth. I have both of mine and have viewed them. The Birth Certificate only gives name, hospital and date. Plus, it is my understanding that it can be issued even for a stillborn. However, only the Certificate of Live Birth documents place, date, time of birth, weight/length of baby and parents names, residence, place of birth, race, etc, etc. In this regard, I question the appearance of two Certificates of Live Birth, a "long" and "short" form. 2. The term "African" is not used to describe race. It has only been used to state the country of origin. During the early 60's other terms would have been used to describe race.
bet is as phoney as him - Thank you Mr. Trump for doing what noone could - Stay on the school records - Thank you for exposing the fraud - Love It - Trump for President - He gets things done
Those who are still supporting Serial Liar Obama, even when Trump played him and got him to blink, are hilarious in their attempts to prop Obama up.
This birth certificate issue does not solve Obama's eligibility problems. His main, continuing and most toxic problem is that his father was not an American citizen -- he was born in Africa. This automatically makes Obama NOT ELIGIBLE to be President. Will FOX comment on this??? IT's written in the U.S. Constitution.....................................
So what? - a pretend birth certificate for a pretend prseident
The fact that it took 2 1/2 years and that he paid millions to block his documents raises a red flag in my mind. People do not pay millions if its not a big deal.PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!! He's definitely hiding something that may interfere with his presidential status. Now we need to see his college docs. Trump was told by Hawaiian officials that the original long form was lost or missing. All of a sudden the White House has a copy. Very peculiar if you ask me. If its lost then how does the White House have it?
Of course there's a lot of lib's in the comments gloating. The really frustrating about the Republican leaders is they won't every say that, yes the entire thing was ridiculous. NOW they're saying that it's distracting from the main debate and that Obama shouldn't have to indulge the birthers. Where were those Republicans two years ago??
On April 28 2011 02:48 winter017 wrote: This should have been resolved a long time ago. The fact that he let this issue sit for two years just proves how much of a partisan hack Obama is. The president is supposed to elevate the national discussion. This whole issue should be nothing but an embarassment for everyone involved.
He's a partisan hack for actually doing his job and ignoring all the bullshit the republicans spew each day? The guy has to deal with a thousand issues, he RUNS THE DAMN COUNTRY and you expect him to spend time dealing with nonsense like his birth certificate? lol..... you have no idea how the real world works.
The only reason he released it now was because its taking up too much of the news cycle and there are far more important things to discuss, he is doing what he is supposed to do.... lead. Unlike Bush who would have spent two weeks proving he was born in the US, using every waking moment to show us some new evidence, pictures taken in the hospital, phone records blah blah.
You are right this should have been resolved long ago, when the first person said "I don't think Obama was born in the US" the person standing next to them should have hit them very hard and told them to shut up. Instead a bunch of republicans rallied around the idea for a while to try to swing an election, it failed.... so then they tried to use it to halt Obama's presidency, it failed. It almost died off, we almost were rid of it..... then the republican primary season started to approach and Trump started spouting it again...... backup up by fewer republicans this time, but still FOX news were banging the drum.....
the ones who kept this story going were REPUBLICANS and right wing news outlets (countered ultimately by Left/Center news outlets which just makes the issue worse), not Obama.... you really have no idea what you are talking about, its like you heard Glenn Beck say "Obama is a partisan hack" and thought "Hmm, I don't know what that means but if Glenn Beck says it, it must be true".
Umm, what?
Partisan Hack could be defined as pretty much ignoring Republicans on the healthcare debate, ignoring them on going to war with Libya(which Congress still hasn't approved, iirc), and trying to get his Democratic Congress to vote on a budget during the lame-duck so the Republicans wouldn't get a chance to implement their own budget.
Second, Obama's obviously had a plenty of free time since he's constantly playing Golf and dropping in for interviews on comedy shows.
Third, punching out a person who disagrees with you on something(even if it's ridiculous) is very undemocratic, and is an insult to freedom of speech. You should be ashamed for proposing violence as a solution.
Fourth, no one in the Congressional Republican Leadership has suggested, or challenged, his citizenship and legitimacy to the Presidency. Trump has been pretty liberal in the past, said some pretty deplorable things about Bush, and is just now coming out "OH HEY I'M A CONSERVATIVE TOO!" He's just a hack, and will probably cost Republicans the election when he loses the primary and runs as an independent to split the anti-Obama vote(he'd pull at least 2-6% of the vote).
Lastly, mainstream conservative news outlets, like Fox News, have never suggested that he was born outside of the country.
On April 28 2011 02:55 Suisen wrote: McCain wasn't born in the US. What is the issue?
It's like Obama denying he is a Muslim but never saying "So what!?
So racist.
McCain was born on a Military Base in Panama. As the base counts as US soil, he qualifies.
Unfortunately, the literal word of the Constitution is the following:
"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."
"natural born citizen" has never been officially interpreted by the Supreme Court in terms of what it means in this instance. For example, is a person born by C-section or IVF "natural born?" It's never been officially interpreted, but reasonable people would recognize that C-section or IVF is acceptable and military bases in Panama count as US soil, but it's cut and dry.
On April 28 2011 02:48 winter017 wrote: This should have been resolved a long time ago. The fact that he let this issue sit for two years just proves how much of a partisan hack Obama is. The president is supposed to elevate the national discussion. This whole issue should be nothing but an embarassment for everyone involved.
He's a partisan hack for actually doing his job and ignoring all the bullshit the republicans spew each day? The guy has to deal with a thousand issues, he RUNS THE DAMN COUNTRY and you expect him to spend time dealing with nonsense like his birth certificate? lol..... you have no idea how the real world works.
The only reason he released it now was because its taking up too much of the news cycle and there are far more important things to discuss, he is doing what he is supposed to do.... lead. Unlike Bush who would have spent two weeks proving he was born in the US, using every waking moment to show us some new evidence, pictures taken in the hospital, phone records blah blah.
You are right this should have been resolved long ago, when the first person said "I don't think Obama was born in the US" the person standing next to them should have hit them very hard and told them to shut up. Instead a bunch of republicans rallied around the idea for a while to try to swing an election, it failed.... so then they tried to use it to halt Obama's presidency, it failed. It almost died off, we almost were rid of it..... then the republican primary season started to approach and Trump started spouting it again...... backup up by fewer republicans this time, but still FOX news were banging the drum.....
the ones who kept this story going were REPUBLICANS and right wing news outlets (countered ultimately by Left/Center news outlets which just makes the issue worse), not Obama.... you really have no idea what you are talking about, its like you heard Glenn Beck say "Obama is a partisan hack" and thought "Hmm, I don't know what that means but if Glenn Beck says it, it must be true".
Umm, what?
Partisan Hack could be defined as pretty much ignoring Republicans on the healthcare debate, ignoring them on going to war with Libya(which Congress still hasn't approved, iirc), and trying to get his Democratic Congress to vote on a budget during the lame-duck so the Republicans wouldn't get a chance to implement their own budget.
Second, Obama's obviously had a plenty of free time since he's constantly playing Golf and dropping in for interviews on comedy shows.
Third, punching out a person who disagrees with you on something(even if it's ridiculous) is very undemocratic, and is an insult to freedom of speech. You should be ashamed for proposing violence as a solution.
Fourth, no one in the Congressional Republican Leadership has suggested, or challenged, his citizenship and legitimacy to the Presidency. Trump has been pretty liberal in the past, said some pretty deplorable things about Bush, and is just now coming out "OH HEY I'M A CONSERVATIVE TOO!" He's just a hack, and will probably cost Republicans the election when he loses the primary and runs as an independent to split the anti-Obama vote(he'd pull at least 2-6% of the vote).
Lastly, mainstream conservative news outlets, like Fox News, have never suggested that he was born outside of the country.
I know what a party hack is, and you make good points about Obama... I wasn't saying he isn't a hack, he might be for all i know... my point was calling him a hack for wanting to do his job instead of spending time on this birther BS is not being a party hack and that the poster obviously didn't understand the term.....
On April 28 2011 02:48 winter017 wrote: This should have been resolved a long time ago. The fact that he let this issue sit for two years just proves how much of a partisan hack Obama is. The president is supposed to elevate the national discussion. This whole issue should be nothing but an embarassment for everyone involved.
uhh he didn't let the issue sit for two years.. he released the short-form birth certificate years ago when the issue first came up.. the white house also referenced two announcements of his birth in local Hawaii newspapers which would 100% put the issue to rest for anyone who has half a brain (since it's impossible to "forge" newspaper announcements from 50 years ago) Also, countless health officials from Hawaii released multiple statements saying he was born in the state and verifying the documents already released were authentic. Yet this still wasn't good enough... if all that evidence isn't good enough then obviously nothing will be good enough beause you have to be a complete moron (or more likely racist) to still think he wasn't born in the US after so much overwhelming evidence. he had no obligation at all to release the long-form just to appease a bunch of crazies... he's most likely choosing to release the long-form now to finally put the issue to rest once and for all and shut up the birthers... so please don't say Obama "sat" on the issue for 2 years without doing anything.. he addressed the issue and provided overwhelming 100% proof years ago..
the only people this issue is an "embarassment" for is the birthers and Donal Trump.
Am I the only one who things this whole think might end up helping Obama for next elections?
I mean, many Obama supporters were getting pissed off at him during these last few years for his bad performance. But now they have another reason to sympathize with the poor guy being victim of racism again, instead of criticizing a bad president.
"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."
"natural born citizen" has never been officially interpreted by the Supreme Court in terms of what it means in this instance. For example, is a person born by C-section or IVF "natural born?" It's never been officially interpreted, but reasonable people would recognize that C-section or IVF is acceptable and military bases in Panama count as US soil, but it's cut and dry.
My favorite part of stories like these is that the believers never question and get angry at the people that lied to them about these things (Fox News, Donald Trump, extremest blogs). Rather, they just pick up their shovel and start digging a deeper hole of delusion.
Do these people realize they look just as dumb as 9/11 conspiracists, vaccine conspiracists, and moon landing conspiracists?
"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."
"natural born citizen" has never been officially interpreted by the Supreme Court in terms of what it means in this instance. For example, is a person born by C-section or IVF "natural born?" It's never been officially interpreted, but reasonable people would recognize that C-section or IVF is acceptable and military bases in Panama count as US soil, but it's cut and dry.
Natural born citizen means citizen from birth..... not born in the US. If ur mother or father are a US citizen... so you are you, no matter where you are born. Its there to stop someone gaining citizenship later in life and then running for president (i.e someone like Arnie). Basically if you have american blood in you, and are registered as a citizen at birth, you can be born on the moon and still be president, according to the term "natural born citizen"... there is no need for interpretation by anyone, the term is pretty self explanatory to anyone who speaks English.
For someone with parents who aren't US citizens, being born in the US the only way to be allowed to run for president, but someone with US citizens for parents is a citizen by birthright. I guess if you were born to US parents but were registered as say a UK citizen, you wouldn't be able to be president... and i get that, your parents registered you as a UK citizen at birth... not US.... but if you were born in the UK, then registered as a US citizen 2 days later (i.e parents were on holiday and mom went into premature labour) you are a US citizen from birth, by birth right and by official document.
I swear, this wouldn't even be an issue in the UK, if we ever have a presidential system. To be a natural born UK citizen, you just have to have a grandparent who was born here and be registered as a UK citizen before any other country (i.e if you have dual citizenship, you must be UK citizen as your primary citizenship)
On April 28 2011 03:27 VIB wrote: Am I the only one who things this whole think might end up helping Obama for next elections?
I mean, many Obama supporters were getting pissed off at him during these last few years for his bad performance. But now they have another reason to sympathize with the poor guy being victim of racism again, instead of criticizing a bad president.
There's a bunch of different Obama supporter opinions flying around right now.
Some think he's now proven that he'll just cave in to anything. Some sympathize with the apparent racism Some applaud the 'I've got better things to do' attitude Some are disappointed that he's acknowledging the idiots and that enough posturing will get him to do what they want Some think its a positive political move (the Republicans can't use it as ammunition in the middle of the generals) Some think its a negative political move (can't drop the 'oh here's my birth certificate' bomb in the middle of the generals)
In any case, even if the birthers aren't actually appeased (they will never be), the media will finally just stop talking about it. It's no-longer an item worth discussing. Even the current Fox News editorial pieces on the matter aren't trying to bring up any controversy of a faked birth certificate.
I still don't understand how birthers ignore the fact that there was an announcement of birth in the newspaper the week he was born... well other than the fact that that no information will satisfy them. I think it's best to ignore the crazies.
First, I want to say I never doubted his citizenship.
That being said, a lot of people do, including several mainstream republican candidates for president (Trump and Huckabee have claimed it outright, and others have hinted at it). This issue was shaping up to be a pretty significant part of the republican primary process. Candidates looking to get the republican nomination would likely have at least flirted with birther ideas, if not embraced them fully. This means the eventual nominee will be pretty far right, and would look pretty foolish if he campaigned in part on birtherism, which most Americans thought was a little crazy to begin with.
Wouldn't it have been smarter (politically) to release this during either A) the republican primary season or B) during the general election? I just don't see any reason to do it now.
If he would have waited, there were real political gains to be made. Releasing it during the primaries could seriously hinder any birther candidates among mainstream voters. If there's a candidate during the primaries that looks too strong in the general, but is also a birther, Obama could have released his long-form birth certificate in order to prevent that candidate from reaching the general election to begin with.
The same holds true with the general election. If a birther gets the republican nomination, Obama could have released his long-form birth certificate then in order to damage that candidate among moderate voters.
The far-right gave Obama a huge political weapon here, and he squandered it. I think this was poorly planned timing.
Well how do we even know this "Hawaii" is part of the united states? If it's actually a state then why hasn't Obama provided us with a copy of the Hawaii Admission Act of 1959!?
ffs I fully expect the discussion to proceed in this direction over the next few weeks. >.>
PORTSMOUTH, N.H., April 27 (UPI) -- Most Americans are unsure whether TV star-real estate mogul-White House hopeful Donald Trump was born in the United States, a Gallup/USA Today poll indicated.
Forty-three percent say they believe Trump was definitely born in the United States. Another 20 percent say they think he probably was, the poll said.
Seven percent say Trump was probably or definitely born in another country, while 30 percent say they don't know enough to say.
On April 28 2011 03:37 Omnipresent wrote: Can we talk about the politics of this release?
First, I want to say I never doubted his citizenship.
That being said, a lot of people do, including several mainstream republican candidates for president (Trump and Huckabee have claimed it outright, and others have hinted at it). This issue was shaping up to be a pretty significant part of the republican primary process. Candidates looking to get the republican nomination would likely have at least flirted with birther ideas, if not embraced them fully. This means the eventual nominee will be pretty far right, and would look pretty foolish if he campaigned in part on birtherism, which most Americans thought was a little crazy to begin with.
Wouldn't it have been smarter (politically) to release this during either A) the republican primary season or B) during the general election? I just don't see any reason to do it now.
If he would have waited, there were real political gains to be made. Releasing it during the primaries could seriously hinder any birther candidates among mainstream voters. If there's a candidate during the primaries that looks too strong in the general, but is also a birther, Obama could have released his long-form birth certificate in order to prevent that candidate from reaching the general election to begin with.
The same holds true with the general election. If a birther gets the republican nomination, Obama could have released his long-form birth certificate then in order to damage that candidate among moderate voters.
The far-right gave Obama a huge political weapon here, and he squandered it. I think this was poorly planned timing.
I think you've missed the clever thing, Obama can't be accused of political games. He has come out and put it to rest, before anything is on the line, like he should do.... he is saying "this isn't politics, I have real work to do". He just picked up a whole bunch of independent voters right there, they don't like partisan politics and games.
And in reality, its not politics.... its school yard games. Not allowing it to become part of the debate is the best thing he could do.
On April 28 2011 03:37 Omnipresent wrote: Can we talk about the politics of this release?
First, I want to say I never doubted his citizenship.
That being said, a lot of people do, including several mainstream republican candidates for president (Trump and Huckabee have claimed it outright, and others have hinted at it). This issue was shaping up to be a pretty significant part of the republican primary process. Candidates looking to get the republican nomination would likely have at least flirted with birther ideas, if not embraced them fully. This means the eventual nominee will be pretty far right, and would look pretty foolish if he campaigned in part on birtherism, which most Americans thought was a little crazy to begin with.
Wouldn't it have been smarter (politically) to release this during either A) the republican primary season or B) during the general election? I just don't see any reason to do it now.
If he would have waited, there were real political gains to be made. Releasing it during the primaries could seriously hinder any birther candidates among mainstream voters. If there's a candidate during the primaries that looks too strong in the general, but is also a birther, Obama could have released his long-form birth certificate in order to prevent that candidate from reaching the general election to begin with.
The same holds true with the general election. If a birther gets the republican nomination, Obama could have released his long-form birth certificate then in order to damage that candidate among moderate voters.
The far-right gave Obama a huge political weapon here, and he squandered it. I think this was poorly planned timing.
I think you've missed the clever thing, Obama can't be accused of political games. He has come out and put it to rest, before anything is on the line, like he should do.... he is saying "this isn't politics, I have real work to do". He just picked up a whole bunch of independent voters right there, they don't like partisan politics and games.
And in reality, its not politics.... its school yard games. Not allowing it to become part of the debate is the best thing he could do.
Alternatively, you can join club 'He's printed it now to distract us from the FED discussions!!!!'
On April 28 2011 01:26 jdseemoreglass wrote: When someone asserts something crazy, you have two viable options:
1) Simply ignore their assertions and move on with rational individuals.
2) Take advantage of their stupidity to win an easy argument, score cheap political points, or vilify your detractors.
The fact that the media continually brings this issue up again and again is simply a way to take a cheap shot and paint right-wingers as racist batshit-crazy lunatics. Are some of them nuts? Of course. There are nutjobs in every group in the world. But we seem to be very selective about when we decide to focus our attention on them.
You're saying that the media is focusing on this to make the right wing look crazy? Wow. I.. wow...
I would respond to your argument but I don't think that "Wow. I.. wow..." actually represents an argument. We could talk all day about left-wingers who are convinced that Bush orchestrated 9/11, but you don't hear that daily in the news, despite how many people actually adhere to that belief. It is absolutely about politics.
I think it's a little different when one of the main proponents of the birther argument is one of the highest-polling republican presidential candidates....
On April 28 2011 01:35 Rebel_lion wrote: Why wasn't this an issue when he was a senator? -.-
Senators don't need to be born within the US, but Presidents do.
I'd refer you to yesterday's Daily Show showing the past "highest polling presidential candidates" 18 months before the elections. These polls are steaming piles of horse shit that have absolutely no meaning whatsoever.
The Arizona Law was blatantly unconstitutional; from Article IV Section I of the U.S. Constitution:
"Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof."
This means that Arizona cannot make a law that demands proof above and beyond the minimum federal requirements for presidential elections. So President Obama would have been on the ballot in Arizona, if they had passed the law following a short court case, or any other state's ballot that passes a similar law.
On April 28 2011 03:37 Omnipresent wrote: Can we talk about the politics of this release?
First, I want to say I never doubted his citizenship.
That being said, a lot of people do, including several mainstream republican candidates for president (Trump and Huckabee have claimed it outright, and others have hinted at it). This issue was shaping up to be a pretty significant part of the republican primary process. Candidates looking to get the republican nomination would likely have at least flirted with birther ideas, if not embraced them fully. This means the eventual nominee will be pretty far right, and would look pretty foolish if he campaigned in part on birtherism, which most Americans thought was a little crazy to begin with.
Wouldn't it have been smarter (politically) to release this during either A) the republican primary season or B) during the general election? I just don't see any reason to do it now.
If he would have waited, there were real political gains to be made. Releasing it during the primaries could seriously hinder any birther candidates among mainstream voters. If there's a candidate during the primaries that looks too strong in the general, but is also a birther, Obama could have released his long-form birth certificate in order to prevent that candidate from reaching the general election to begin with.
The same holds true with the general election. If a birther gets the republican nomination, Obama could have released his long-form birth certificate then in order to damage that candidate among moderate voters.
The far-right gave Obama a huge political weapon here, and he squandered it. I think this was poorly planned timing.
I think you've missed the clever thing, Obama can't be accused of political games. He has come out and put it to rest, before anything is on the line, like he should do.... he is saying "this isn't politics, I have real work to do". He just picked up a whole bunch of independent voters right there, they don't like partisan politics and games.
And in reality, its not politics.... its school yard games. Not allowing it to become part of the debate is the best thing he could do.
Alternatively, you can join club 'He's printed it now to distract us from the FED discussions!!!!'
Bernanke is shaking in his boots. So much for Mr. Confidence 'I can plan and control the entire economy' Keynesianism non-sense.
On April 28 2011 01:26 jdseemoreglass wrote: When someone asserts something crazy, you have two viable options:
1) Simply ignore their assertions and move on with rational individuals.
2) Take advantage of their stupidity to win an easy argument, score cheap political points, or vilify your detractors.
The fact that the media continually brings this issue up again and again is simply a way to take a cheap shot and paint right-wingers as racist batshit-crazy lunatics. Are some of them nuts? Of course. There are nutjobs in every group in the world. But we seem to be very selective about when we decide to focus our attention on them.
You're saying that the media is focusing on this to make the right wing look crazy? Wow. I.. wow...
I would respond to your argument but I don't think that "Wow. I.. wow..." actually represents an argument. We could talk all day about left-wingers who are convinced that Bush orchestrated 9/11, but you don't hear that daily in the news, despite how many people actually adhere to that belief. It is absolutely about politics.
I think it's a little different when one of the main proponents of the birther argument is one of the highest-polling republican presidential candidates....
On April 28 2011 01:35 Rebel_lion wrote: Why wasn't this an issue when he was a senator? -.-
Senators don't need to be born within the US, but Presidents do.
I'd refer you to yesterday's Daily Show showing the past "highest polling presidential candidates" 18 months before the elections. These polls are steaming piles of horse shit that have absolutely no meaning whatsoever.
Huckabee was a serious candidate in 2008 (maybe again in 2012), and he's a birther. A significant portion of the most recent class of republican congressmen are birthers. The leadership is afraid to clear the air. Their responses are cryptic at best. "I have to take his word for it."
Conversely, 9/11 truth was always a fringe movement. Democratic senators and congressmen avoided it like the plague, and it would have been the kiss of death for any presidential hopeful.
You're creating a false equivalency here. There are massive differences that should be apparent.
I really don't understand though why Obama didn't clear this up way earlier. I mean perhaps you could say he's doing this for his prospective reelection, but it would have so much more sense to just clarify everything as soon as he's in office. I personally believe it's hard to trust a president who doesn't want people looking at his birth certificate or where he went to college.
On April 28 2011 01:26 jdseemoreglass wrote: When someone asserts something crazy, you have two viable options:
1) Simply ignore their assertions and move on with rational individuals.
2) Take advantage of their stupidity to win an easy argument, score cheap political points, or vilify your detractors.
The fact that the media continually brings this issue up again and again is simply a way to take a cheap shot and paint right-wingers as racist batshit-crazy lunatics. Are some of them nuts? Of course. There are nutjobs in every group in the world. But we seem to be very selective about when we decide to focus our attention on them.
You're saying that the media is focusing on this to make the right wing look crazy? Wow. I.. wow...
I would respond to your argument but I don't think that "Wow. I.. wow..." actually represents an argument. We could talk all day about left-wingers who are convinced that Bush orchestrated 9/11, but you don't hear that daily in the news, despite how many people actually adhere to that belief. It is absolutely about politics.
I think it's a little different when one of the main proponents of the birther argument is one of the highest-polling republican presidential candidates....
On April 28 2011 01:35 Rebel_lion wrote: Why wasn't this an issue when he was a senator? -.-
Senators don't need to be born within the US, but Presidents do.
I'd refer you to yesterday's Daily Show showing the past "highest polling presidential candidates" 18 months before the elections. These polls are steaming piles of horse shit that have absolutely no meaning whatsoever.
Huckabee was a serious candidate in 2008 (maybe again in 2012), and he's a birther. A significant portion of the most recent class of republican congressmen are birthers. The leadership is afraid to clear the air. Their responses are cryptic at best. "I have to take his word for it."
Conversely, 9/11 truth was always a fringe movement. Democratic senators and congressmen avoided it like the plague, and it would have been the kiss of death for any presidential hopeful.
You're creating a false equivalency here. There are massive differences that should be apparent.
Hmmmm... what about Senator Gravel? I'm just messin'. In any event, could we actually get back to substantive issues like ahem *Fed Press Conference* & all its attendent financing of Big-Gov?
On April 28 2011 03:37 Omnipresent wrote: Can we talk about the politics of this release?
First, I want to say I never doubted his citizenship.
That being said, a lot of people do, including several mainstream republican candidates for president (Trump and Huckabee have claimed it outright, and others have hinted at it). This issue was shaping up to be a pretty significant part of the republican primary process. Candidates looking to get the republican nomination would likely have at least flirted with birther ideas, if not embraced them fully. This means the eventual nominee will be pretty far right, and would look pretty foolish if he campaigned in part on birtherism, which most Americans thought was a little crazy to begin with.
Wouldn't it have been smarter (politically) to release this during either A) the republican primary season or B) during the general election? I just don't see any reason to do it now.
If he would have waited, there were real political gains to be made. Releasing it during the primaries could seriously hinder any birther candidates among mainstream voters. If there's a candidate during the primaries that looks too strong in the general, but is also a birther, Obama could have released his long-form birth certificate in order to prevent that candidate from reaching the general election to begin with.
The same holds true with the general election. If a birther gets the republican nomination, Obama could have released his long-form birth certificate then in order to damage that candidate among moderate voters.
The far-right gave Obama a huge political weapon here, and he squandered it. I think this was poorly planned timing.
I think you've missed the clever thing, Obama can't be accused of political games. He has come out and put it to rest, before anything is on the line, like he should do.... he is saying "this isn't politics, I have real work to do". He just picked up a whole bunch of independent voters right there, they don't like partisan politics and games.
And in reality, its not politics.... its school yard games. Not allowing it to become part of the debate is the best thing he could do.
I have 2 points.
1) I don't know that the birther opposition is clever enough to accuse him of playing games with his birth certificate. Imagine this. The birther issue gets brought up during a debate (it would have barring this release, and still might). The next morning, Obama comes out with his long-form birth certificate and a statement. "Can't we stop arguing about petty things and focus on the issues."
2) If you think that approach still looks too political, there's no reason not to wait a few months and let the issue build up first. Releasing it at the end of the year still puts it 2 months ahead of the Iowa caucus. By that time, many candidates would be tainted with the issue, and it still wouldn't look political.
"Instead of fixing the economy, you spend your time showing us your birth certificate?!" -Republicans, after claiming Obama wasn't born in America.
I'd be pretty annoyed if I was in Obama's shoes. Obama doesn't even want to waste his time dealing with this issue and when he does, there are people criticisizing him for "wasting his time" or calling his birth certificate fake. -_____-
On April 28 2011 03:34 Zorkmid wrote: What a country.
The funny thing is that this is not going to appease the "birthers" at all. Nothing will.
When you have to deal with xenophobic fear and completely irrational paranoia, the best is just to refuse the debate. I don't think Obama and the White House should even answer to theses morons.
POTUS: I can't get the networks to break in on all kinds of other discussions. I was just back there listening to Chuck, he was saying "it's amazing that he's not going to be talking about national security." I would not have the networks breaking in if I was talking about that, Chuck, and you know it.
I don't know why he even bothers. The 20% of Americans or so who believe this shit are mentally-disabled sheeple who also think that he's a socialist fascist muslim who wants to turn the US into Canada/Kenya.
On April 28 2011 03:51 AtTheFuneral wrote: I really don't understand though why Obama didn't clear this up way earlier. I mean perhaps you could say he's doing this for his prospective reelection, but it would have so much more sense to just clarify everything as soon as he's in office. I personally believe it's hard to trust a president who doesn't want people looking at his birth certificate or where he went to college.
You didn't see 10 fucking people post this same shit as you? Why don't you actually read the thread you're posting in and continue the conversation from the past 10 times someone said this, instead of voicing your new and refreshing stance on the issue that adds nothing.
On April 28 2011 03:57 LoLAdriankat wrote: "Instead of fixing the economy, you spend your time showing us your birth certificate?!" -Republicans, after claiming Obama wasn't born in America.
Especially since this should be:
"Instead of fixing the mess we have done by completely deregulating finance since Reagan, you spend your time answering our paranoid accusation?!"
Trump is such an idiot. Now he wants to see to see Obama's academic records cause he doesn't believe his grades were good enough to get him into Harvard.
Funny that the document brands people as "African" or "Caucasian". What's the term for their kid? And what if that kid has a child with an "Asian" person? I have no problem with those who want to divide people into "races" while talking, chatting informally etc, but to have it documented on a birth certificate? ^^ Weird country.
On April 28 2011 04:23 Shichibukai wrote: Funny that the document brands people as "African" or "Caucasian". What's the term for their kid? And what if that kid has a child with an "Asian" person? I have no problem with those who want to divide people into "races" while talking, chatting informally etc, but to have it documented on a birth certificate? ^^ Weird country.
Holy shit you don't do this? lol.
And someone who has 1 parent white and 1 black is black. And same if Asian.
Well, glad he finally did it. I didn't really doubt that he was born here, but the fact that he continually refused to release the thing just added fuel to the fire. I'm really not sure why he didn't just release it in the first place to kill off the rumors before they got big.
On April 28 2011 04:23 Shichibukai wrote: Funny that the document brands people as "African" or "Caucasian". What's the term for their kid? And what if that kid has a child with an "Asian" person? I have no problem with those who want to divide people into "races" while talking, chatting informally etc, but to have it documented on a birth certificate? ^^ Weird country.
Holy shit you don't do this? lol.
And someone who has 1 parent white and 1 black is black. And same if Asian.
No, we don't do it. In fact if I were to ask a fellow swede who has immigrated or has foreign parents what his "race" is, he would probably get very offended and brand me a racist. And if someone were to ask me, I sure as hell wouldn't say Caucasian, I would give them a confused look and say "What?". ^_^
But to continue on the child question. Let's jump forward 10 generations, suddenly the offspring looks just as white as any "caucasian" kid, but since one of his ancestors were of african race, the whole bloodline is branded as such forever? ^^ Plus, what about situations where you got ancestors from all over the place, surely there's people with a mix of 5 different races in the USA, what do their birth certificates say? ;>
On April 28 2011 04:31 Thingdo wrote: Well, glad he finally did it. I didn't really doubt that he was born here, but the fact that he continually refused to release the thing just added fuel to the fire. I'm really not sure why he didn't just release it in the first place to kill off the rumors before they got big.
He released it in 2008. This is my 5th post stating that. You are the 5th person to ignore me and ask why it wasn't released earlier.
If you are born in Panama, you aren't born in the US. US base or not. You are either born in Panama, or in the US. Not both.
Also, Hawaii is annexed territory. International law says territory can't be acquired through war. Right now it is hard to say that Hawaii is not US territory, but it shouldn't be. Hawaii belongs to the native people of Hawaii. Right now, there live a lot of non-natives. Fine. We have to accept that. Give them both equal rights to vote. Same ought to be done eventually with Palestine-Israel.
Just imagine if Obama had been born in a Saudi US base...
So much feathers ruffled for nothing. I guess anything that distracts people from the real issues was bound to prove popular especially for those with pre-existing misgivings about Obama.
Oh and LOL at Trump for trying to take credit for this. The guy has cojones I'll give him that.
On April 28 2011 04:31 Thingdo wrote: Well, glad he finally did it. I didn't really doubt that he was born here, but the fact that he continually refused to release the thing just added fuel to the fire. I'm really not sure why he didn't just release it in the first place to kill off the rumors before they got big.
He released it in 2008. This is my 5th post stating that. You are the 5th person to ignore me and ask why it wasn't released earlier.
He released this document??.. or do you mean the live birth one?... cause there is a difference
I frequently get headaches thinking about the leader of the free world being chosen by people who actually spends time with this kind of ridiculous issues. People should worry a lot more about their actual policies than what it says on their birthcertificates.
It seems kind of even more ridiculous when you consider than this wasn't a huge issue with any of the other recent presidents, what makes Obama special? What actually sparked this in the first place?
On April 28 2011 04:23 Shichibukai wrote: Funny that the document brands people as "African" or "Caucasian". What's the term for their kid? And what if that kid has a child with an "Asian" person? I have no problem with those who want to divide people into "races" while talking, chatting informally etc, but to have it documented on a birth certificate? ^^ Weird country.
Holy shit you don't do this? lol.
And someone who has 1 parent white and 1 black is black. And same if Asian.
No, we don't do it. In fact if I were to ask a fellow swede who has immigrated or has foreign parents what his "race" is, he would probably get very offended and brand me a racist. And if someone were to ask me, I sure as hell wouldn't say Caucasian, I would give them a confused look and say "What?". ^_^
But to continue on the child question. Let's jump forward 10 generations, suddenly the offspring looks just as white as any "caucasian" kid, but since one of his ancestors were of african race, the whole bloodline is branded as such forever? ^^ Plus, what about situations where you got ancestors from all over the place, surely there's people with a mix of 5 different races in the USA, what do their birth certificates say? ;>
Not trolling, I'm genuinely curious.
knowing the demographics of a country is important for a variety of reasons, which is why it's done.
On April 28 2011 04:31 Thingdo wrote: Well, glad he finally did it. I didn't really doubt that he was born here, but the fact that he continually refused to release the thing just added fuel to the fire. I'm really not sure why he didn't just release it in the first place to kill off the rumors before they got big.
He released it in 2008. This is my 5th post stating that. You are the 5th person to ignore me and ask why it wasn't released earlier.
He released this document??.. or do you mean the live birth one?... cause there is a difference
Oh yeah? I hate to break it to you but in both 2008 and now it's a Certificate of Live Birth. Not a Birth Certificate. You know why? Cause Hawaii only uses Certificates of Live Birth... thats what they are called. Residents of Hawaii use Certificates of Live Birth for drivers licenses and everything.
On April 28 2011 04:42 Suisen wrote: If you are born in Panama, you aren't born in the US. US base or not. You are either born in Panama, or in the US. Not both.
Also, Hawaii is annexed territory. International law says territory can't be acquired through war. Right now it is hard to say that Hawaii is not US territory, but it shouldn't be. Hawaii belongs to the native people of Hawaii. Right now, there live a lot of non-natives. Fine. We have to accept that. Give them both equal rights to vote. Same ought to be done eventually with Palestine-Israel.
Just imagine if Obama had been born in a Saudi US base...
What are you talking about? What territories haven't been acquired through war? What about the native people of mainland America?
On April 28 2011 04:23 Shichibukai wrote: Funny that the document brands people as "African" or "Caucasian". What's the term for their kid? And what if that kid has a child with an "Asian" person? I have no problem with those who want to divide people into "races" while talking, chatting informally etc, but to have it documented on a birth certificate? ^^ Weird country.
Holy shit you don't do this? lol.
And someone who has 1 parent white and 1 black is black. And same if Asian.
On April 28 2011 04:23 Shichibukai wrote: Funny that the document brands people as "African" or "Caucasian". What's the term for their kid? And what if that kid has a child with an "Asian" person? I have no problem with those who want to divide people into "races" while talking, chatting informally etc, but to have it documented on a birth certificate? ^^ Weird country.
Holy shit you don't do this? lol.
And someone who has 1 parent white and 1 black is black. And same if Asian.
No, we don't do it. In fact if I were to ask a fellow swede who has immigrated or has foreign parents what his "race" is, he would probably get very offended and brand me a racist. And if someone were to ask me, I sure as hell wouldn't say Caucasian, I would give them a confused look and say "What?". ^_^
But to continue on the child question. Let's jump forward 10 generations, suddenly the offspring looks just as white as any "caucasian" kid, but since one of his ancestors were of african race, the whole bloodline is branded as such forever? ^^ Plus, what about situations where you got ancestors from all over the place, surely there's people with a mix of 5 different races in the USA, what do their birth certificates say? ;>
Not trolling, I'm genuinely curious.
knowing the demographics of a country is important for a variety of reasons, which is why it's done.
Uhm, name 5. I'd be surprised if you found one that I would find convincing. And you can determine a countrys demographics with other means just as easily if you find necessary, you don't have to put it on the birth certificate.
On April 28 2011 04:23 Shichibukai wrote: Funny that the document brands people as "African" or "Caucasian". What's the term for their kid? And what if that kid has a child with an "Asian" person? I have no problem with those who want to divide people into "races" while talking, chatting informally etc, but to have it documented on a birth certificate? ^^ Weird country.
Holy shit you don't do this? lol.
And someone who has 1 parent white and 1 black is black. And same if Asian.
On April 28 2011 04:23 Shichibukai wrote: Funny that the document brands people as "African" or "Caucasian". What's the term for their kid? And what if that kid has a child with an "Asian" person? I have no problem with those who want to divide people into "races" while talking, chatting informally etc, but to have it documented on a birth certificate? ^^ Weird country.
Holy shit you don't do this? lol.
And someone who has 1 parent white and 1 black is black. And same if Asian.
No, we don't do it. In fact if I were to ask a fellow swede who has immigrated or has foreign parents what his "race" is, he would probably get very offended and brand me a racist. And if someone were to ask me, I sure as hell wouldn't say Caucasian, I would give them a confused look and say "What?". ^_^
But to continue on the child question. Let's jump forward 10 generations, suddenly the offspring looks just as white as any "caucasian" kid, but since one of his ancestors were of african race, the whole bloodline is branded as such forever? ^^ Plus, what about situations where you got ancestors from all over the place, surely there's people with a mix of 5 different races in the USA, what do their birth certificates say? ;>
Not trolling, I'm genuinely curious.
knowing the demographics of a country is important for a variety of reasons, which is why it's done.
Uhm, name 5. I'd be surprised if you found one that I would find convincing. And you can determine a countrys demographics with other means just as easily if you find necessary.
5 second Google search strikes again!
The OMB states that “many federal programs are put into effect based on the race data obtained from the decennial census (i.e., promoting equal employment opportunities; assessing racial disparities in health and environmental risks). Race data are also critical for the basic research behind many policy decisions. States require these data to meet legislative redistricting requirements. The data are needed to monitor compliance with the Voting Rights Act by local jurisdictions." "Data on ethnic groups are important for putting into effect a number of federal statutes (i.e., enforcing bilingual election rules under the Voting Rights Act; monitoring and enforcing equal employment opportunities under the Civil Rights Act). Data on Ethnic Groups are also needed by local governments to run programs and meet legislative requirements (i.e., identifying segments of the population who may not be receiving medical services under the Public Health Act; evaluating whether financial institutions are meeting the credit needs of minority populations under the Community Reinvestment Act)
Edit: And I know this was about race on the census. Same thing.
I particularly love the idiotic splitting of hairs between "birth certificate" and "certificate of live birth". That's like saying "a wedge of cheddar cheese" is not "a cheese wedge".
On April 28 2011 04:23 Shichibukai wrote: Funny that the document brands people as "African" or "Caucasian". What's the term for their kid? And what if that kid has a child with an "Asian" person? I have no problem with those who want to divide people into "races" while talking, chatting informally etc, but to have it documented on a birth certificate? ^^ Weird country.
Holy shit you don't do this? lol.
And someone who has 1 parent white and 1 black is black. And same if Asian.
Why would we do this? Makes no sense.
On April 28 2011 04:44 Hawk wrote:
On April 28 2011 04:32 Shichibukai wrote:
On April 28 2011 04:24 _Darwin_ wrote:
On April 28 2011 04:23 Shichibukai wrote: Funny that the document brands people as "African" or "Caucasian". What's the term for their kid? And what if that kid has a child with an "Asian" person? I have no problem with those who want to divide people into "races" while talking, chatting informally etc, but to have it documented on a birth certificate? ^^ Weird country.
Holy shit you don't do this? lol.
And someone who has 1 parent white and 1 black is black. And same if Asian.
No, we don't do it. In fact if I were to ask a fellow swede who has immigrated or has foreign parents what his "race" is, he would probably get very offended and brand me a racist. And if someone were to ask me, I sure as hell wouldn't say Caucasian, I would give them a confused look and say "What?". ^_^
But to continue on the child question. Let's jump forward 10 generations, suddenly the offspring looks just as white as any "caucasian" kid, but since one of his ancestors were of african race, the whole bloodline is branded as such forever? ^^ Plus, what about situations where you got ancestors from all over the place, surely there's people with a mix of 5 different races in the USA, what do their birth certificates say? ;>
Not trolling, I'm genuinely curious.
knowing the demographics of a country is important for a variety of reasons, which is why it's done.
Uhm, name 5. I'd be surprised if you found one that I would find convincing. And you can determine a countrys demographics with other means just as easily if you find necessary.
The OMB states that “many federal programs are put into effect based on the race data obtained from the decennial census (i.e., promoting equal employment opportunities; assessing racial disparities in health and environmental risks). Race data are also critical for the basic research behind many policy decisions. States require these data to meet legislative redistricting requirements. The data are needed to monitor compliance with the Voting Rights Act by local jurisdictions." "Data on ethnic groups are important for putting into effect a number of federal statutes (i.e., enforcing bilingual election rules under the Voting Rights Act; monitoring and enforcing equal employment opportunities under the Civil Rights Act). Data on Ethnic Groups are also needed by local governments to run programs and meet legislative requirements (i.e., identifying segments of the population who may not be receiving medical services under the Public Health Act; evaluating whether financial institutions are meeting the credit needs of minority populations under the Community Reinvestment Act)
That's not very convincing. The question is why you label someone by birth as a certain race. You can easily get a good measure of a country's demographic without that. I have no problem with your system, but I do find it weird and unnecessary. But I don't want to derail this thread too much so I'll just leave it at that.
On April 28 2011 04:23 Shichibukai wrote: Funny that the document brands people as "African" or "Caucasian". What's the term for their kid? And what if that kid has a child with an "Asian" person? I have no problem with those who want to divide people into "races" while talking, chatting informally etc, but to have it documented on a birth certificate? ^^ Weird country.
Holy shit you don't do this? lol.
And someone who has 1 parent white and 1 black is black. And same if Asian.
Why would we do this? Makes no sense.
On April 28 2011 04:44 Hawk wrote:
On April 28 2011 04:32 Shichibukai wrote:
On April 28 2011 04:24 _Darwin_ wrote:
On April 28 2011 04:23 Shichibukai wrote: Funny that the document brands people as "African" or "Caucasian". What's the term for their kid? And what if that kid has a child with an "Asian" person? I have no problem with those who want to divide people into "races" while talking, chatting informally etc, but to have it documented on a birth certificate? ^^ Weird country.
Holy shit you don't do this? lol.
And someone who has 1 parent white and 1 black is black. And same if Asian.
No, we don't do it. In fact if I were to ask a fellow swede who has immigrated or has foreign parents what his "race" is, he would probably get very offended and brand me a racist. And if someone were to ask me, I sure as hell wouldn't say Caucasian, I would give them a confused look and say "What?". ^_^
But to continue on the child question. Let's jump forward 10 generations, suddenly the offspring looks just as white as any "caucasian" kid, but since one of his ancestors were of african race, the whole bloodline is branded as such forever? ^^ Plus, what about situations where you got ancestors from all over the place, surely there's people with a mix of 5 different races in the USA, what do their birth certificates say? ;>
Not trolling, I'm genuinely curious.
knowing the demographics of a country is important for a variety of reasons, which is why it's done.
Uhm, name 5. I'd be surprised if you found one that I would find convincing. And you can determine a countrys demographics with other means just as easily if you find necessary.
The OMB states that “many federal programs are put into effect based on the race data obtained from the decennial census (i.e., promoting equal employment opportunities; assessing racial disparities in health and environmental risks). Race data are also critical for the basic research behind many policy decisions. States require these data to meet legislative redistricting requirements. The data are needed to monitor compliance with the Voting Rights Act by local jurisdictions." "Data on ethnic groups are important for putting into effect a number of federal statutes (i.e., enforcing bilingual election rules under the Voting Rights Act; monitoring and enforcing equal employment opportunities under the Civil Rights Act). Data on Ethnic Groups are also needed by local governments to run programs and meet legislative requirements (i.e., identifying segments of the population who may not be receiving medical services under the Public Health Act; evaluating whether financial institutions are meeting the credit needs of minority populations under the Community Reinvestment Act)
Edit: And I know this was about race on the census. Same thing.
Census about race are illegal in France too.
Problem is that "race" doesn't even mean anything. Most of the time they are basically the exact same thing as the skin color.
Now someone explain me why a black person established in France for 6 generations would be classified as "black african" and me, who is a second generation immigrate with 10 nationalities in my blood is supposed to be a "mainstream" caucasian white French.
"Race" means nothing ans says nothing. Ask about the country of origin, the mothher tongue, anything, but this skin color based falaciously scientific notion is basically complete bullshit.
On April 28 2011 05:04 Keitzer wrote: I just wanted to know why he just wouldn't release it.... Like why the fuck spend millions of dollars covering it up?
Seems sketchy to me...
OH MY GOD. HE RELEASED IT IN TWO THOUSAND GOD DAMN EIGHT.
On April 28 2011 05:04 Keitzer wrote: I just wanted to know why he just wouldn't release it.... Like why the fuck spend millions of dollars covering it up?
Seems sketchy to me...
Because surely somewhere someone has certified that he fulfilled the requirements to be elected president of the united states of bureaucr...america?
On April 28 2011 04:23 Shichibukai wrote: Funny that the document brands people as "African" or "Caucasian". What's the term for their kid? And what if that kid has a child with an "Asian" person? I have no problem with those who want to divide people into "races" while talking, chatting informally etc, but to have it documented on a birth certificate? ^^ Weird country.
Holy shit you don't do this? lol.
And someone who has 1 parent white and 1 black is black. And same if Asian.
I think I'll just drift into my little happy place, where politicians concentrate on politics, and where there are no power-crazed liars making ridiculous accusations and are prud of being called out, where the president of the USA doesn't have to release his birth certificate to prove he is a freakin' american and where the cake is never a lie.
That the president even had to consider releasing this is just beyond ridiculous. He IS the president right? I mean, they check my origins if I have to join the military, I'd think the procedure is a bit more thorough when appointed the national leader no?
On April 28 2011 01:33 WaZuP wrote: In my opinion he better ignored those rumors about his birth because clearly the ones who made this up will still believe in it , so why fuel the fire ?!?!?!
on a side note since im not from the US: how big was this conspiracy theorie in the united states just some gag or did it fill the media for weeks ?
Of course it was in the media almost every single day for the past few months. If the media actually talked about solving problems or trying to help eachother instead of fighting we might actually do something good for this country. Of course, then they would get lower ratings and make less money. No one wants that.
"I'd like to know how does he get into Harvard, how does he get into Colombia if he isn't a very good student," Trump said, asking why the president doesn't release his college records from Occidental College.
"If he wants to release it that's fine, if he doesn't want to release it that's fine too. But the word is he wasn't a very good student," Trump added.
rofl what?
please release that letter you recieved from you mother, word is she messed up the grammar in there and obviously is a bad mother!
On April 28 2011 04:23 Shichibukai wrote: Funny that the document brands people as "African" or "Caucasian". What's the term for their kid? And what if that kid has a child with an "Asian" person? I have no problem with those who want to divide people into "races" while talking, chatting informally etc, but to have it documented on a birth certificate? ^^ Weird country.
Holy shit you don't do this? lol.
And someone who has 1 parent white and 1 black is black. And same if Asian.
Why would we do this? Makes no sense.
Because we have affirmative action programs etc.
Not many countries besides the US have anything equivalent of affirmative action. Personally I find it a pretty broken way to deal with social problems.
What I don't get is: Why is it even mandatory for the president to be born in the US in the first place? I mean, if enough people think you would make a good president, why should it matter where you were born?
On April 28 2011 05:04 Keitzer wrote: I just wanted to know why he just wouldn't release it.... Like why the fuck spend millions of dollars covering it up?
Seems sketchy to me...
"Covering it up"? Are you not with the rather educated demographic? There was no cover-up. It was a completely retarded topic to bring up by the conspiracy theorists in the first place. If anything, it cost money to make the damn thing public just so they finally shut the fuck up. Which they won't, because they're conspiracy theorists.
On April 28 2011 05:04 Keitzer wrote: I just wanted to know why he just wouldn't release it.... Like why the fuck spend millions of dollars covering it up?
Seems sketchy to me...
OH MY GOD. HE RELEASED IT IN TWO THOUSAND GOD DAMN EIGHT.
On April 28 2011 05:18 Ghostcom wrote: What I don't get is: Why is it even mandatory for the president to be born in the US in the first place? I mean, if enough people think you would make a good president, why should it matter where you were born?
Is there something obvious I'm missing?
There are a lot of requirements to be the president.
Not all of them are logical, but the were 200-300 years ago, and we like to keep them =/
On April 28 2011 05:18 Ghostcom wrote: What I don't get is: Why is it even mandatory for the president to be born in the US in the first place? I mean, if enough people think you would make a good president, why should it matter where you were born?
Is there something obvious I'm missing?
It's in the constitution. So it will never change. Ever. Good system I know.
On top of that I bet a lot of americans are way too patriotic to accept anyone who's not born in the US to lead the country, even if a majority would vote the person in. I'd expect riots and a non-functioning government, at least in places.
That is so embarassing for the US. Obama is so right when he wants to be seen as a voice of reason amongst a bunch of idiots.
Now of course this is few of an evidence, but the whole discussion is deeply crackpot anyways, so why bother... US has more severe issues: Guantamano, national debt while having an unreasonably huge military budget, health care, unemployment, pauperization, criminality (because severe punishment does not work for reducing crime rates), reputation in the world, import- to export ratio, a financial industry happily working on the next crisis and much more.
On April 28 2011 05:17 Jibba wrote: Just imagine how much the typical Limbaugh/Beck/Fox argument is going to change when they decide they want Schwarzenegger as President.
My disgust for this country grows on a daily basis.
From the people I know who are birthers, their views on presidential requirements have no correlation to their conspiracy about obama's birth. I know some who think obama was born in a foreign country, but that they think they should lift the requirements, while others think they should make the requirements more strict.
There is a small group of people (less than 10%) who are really nationalistic americans who want closed immigration, stricter citizenship requirements, only english in schools and other things like that, but not all of the birthers belong to that category (example, donald trump is not a nationalist, whereas limbaugh is).
On April 28 2011 05:04 Keitzer wrote: I just wanted to know why he just wouldn't release it.... Like why the fuck spend millions of dollars covering it up?
Seems sketchy to me...
OH MY GOD. HE RELEASED IT IN TWO THOUSAND GOD DAMN EIGHT.
He released the long-form of his birth certificate in 2008? No, no he didn't.
I didn't even realize a "short-form" existed at all until this whole topic came up to begin with. I have 1 birth certificate, and it is the standard long-form. That's what people wanted to see, because that's what everyone has and uses for most legal requirements.
So please stop repeating yourself 6 times that he already released it. I personally don't give a damn about the topic but I hate strawman arguments nonetheless...
The argument of those who don't believe it were not legal demands, so producing a short-form of his birth certificate should have been sufficient, to demand the long-form is pointless and just dragging the whole thing to a stupid level.
People wanted to see proof of birth, its form shouldn't be relevant (regardless if you only know one form, you should find out the number of forms of a document you want to be proved of).
On April 28 2011 04:31 Thingdo wrote: Well, glad he finally did it. I didn't really doubt that he was born here, but the fact that he continually refused to release the thing just added fuel to the fire. I'm really not sure why he didn't just release it in the first place to kill off the rumors before they got big.
He released it in 2008. This is my 5th post stating that. You are the 5th person to ignore me and ask why it wasn't released earlier.
He released this document??.. or do you mean the live birth one?... cause there is a difference
Oh yeah? I hate to break it to you but in both 2008 and now it's a Certificate of Live Birth. Not a Birth Certificate. You know why? Cause Hawaii only uses Certificates of Live Birth... thats what they are called. Residents of Hawaii use Certificates of Live Birth for drivers licenses and everything.
There's no difference in documents.
It's kind of ironic. I'll bet these same people crying foul of Obama's legitimacy to presidency also advocate that every State should make its own rules outside of Federal encroachment. But, when Hawaii uses a different system, it's completely bogus!
On April 28 2011 05:18 Ghostcom wrote: What I don't get is: Why is it even mandatory for the president to be born in the US in the first place? I mean, if enough people think you would make a good president, why should it matter where you were born?
Is there something obvious I'm missing?
It's in the constitution. So it will never change. Ever. Good system I know.
On top of that I bet a lot of americans are way too over patriotic to accept anyone who's not born in the US to lead the country, even if a majority would vote the person in. I'd expect riots and a non-functioning government, at least in places.
To prevent british imperialists from taking over the country....oh wait, we won the war of 1812.
On April 28 2011 05:04 Keitzer wrote: I just wanted to know why he just wouldn't release it.... Like why the fuck spend millions of dollars covering it up?
Seems sketchy to me...
OH MY GOD. HE RELEASED IT IN TWO THOUSAND GOD DAMN EIGHT.
He released the long-form of his birth certificate in 2008? No, no he didn't.
I didn't even realize a "short-form" existed at all until this whole topic came up to begin with. I have 1 birth certificate, and it is the standard long-form. That's what people wanted to see, because that's what everyone has and uses for most legal requirements.
So please stop repeating yourself 6 times that he already released it. I personally don't give a damn about the topic but I hate strawman arguments nonetheless...
So seeing the signatures of his mother and doctor made the difference? I don't see any difference really in the long and short versions information..
On April 28 2011 05:18 Ghostcom wrote: What I don't get is: Why is it even mandatory for the president to be born in the US in the first place? I mean, if enough people think you would make a good president, why should it matter where you were born?
Is there something obvious I'm missing?
It's in the constitution. So it will never change. Ever. Good system I know.
On top of that I bet a lot of americans are way too over patriotic to accept anyone who's not born in the US to lead the country, even if a majority would vote the person in. I'd expect riots and a non-functioning government, at least in places.
I actually didn't know it was part of the constitution - that at least makes somewhat sense I guess. Thank you.
On April 28 2011 05:18 Ghostcom wrote: What I don't get is: Why is it even mandatory for the president to be born in the US in the first place? I mean, if enough people think you would make a good president, why should it matter where you were born?
Is there something obvious I'm missing?
There are a lot of requirements to be the president.
Not all of them are logical, but the were 200-300 years ago, and we like to keep them =/
In a country heralding itself as one of the most ethnic ones, that's a bit of a meh reason. Also keeping stuff around for traditions sake is really rarely working out.
Read the comments about this on articles on the Fox News website. I don't know whether to feel angry or sorry for those people. Come on, America. Seriously now...
It is interesting how many people will refuse to give up something they were so emotionally attached to. It is also kind of funny they were emotionally attached to the idea that Obama wasn't born in Hawaii XD. You should have said from the beginning, "Obama wasn't born in America and I refuse to accept any evidence to the contrary."
He really shouldn't have done this. Trump is just going to pat himself on the back about how awesome he is for making the president do it.
On April 28 2011 05:18 Ghostcom wrote: What I don't get is: Why is it even mandatory for the president to be born in the US in the first place? I mean, if enough people think you would make a good president, why should it matter where you were born?
Is there something obvious I'm missing?
You're not missing anything. People mistakenly believe that being born in a country is the ultimate sign of your devotion (of course ignoring the fact that no one has control over where they're born) and that it somehow guarantees you'll be more loyal to the cause than you would be otherwise. Nevermind the years of preparation and vetting that go into choosing a candidate, all of those are inadequate compared to the all telling "Where Did Your Mother Dump You Off?" test.
On April 28 2011 05:19 jdseemoreglass wrote: He released the long-form of his birth certificate in 2008? No, no he didn't.
The birth certificate released in 2008 was the form that is given out by the state of Hawaii to anyone who asks for a birth certificate. Each state does it a little differently, but in the case of Hawaii they don't normally issue any other form. It is valid for all legal purposes (getting a driver's license, a passport, etc.) and according to the "full faith and credit" clause of the US Constitution all other states must accept it. If you were born in Hawaii, and you asked for your birth certificate, they would not give you any sort of so-called "long-form".
The only reason they made an exception in this case is because of all the attention that the issue has gotten.
On April 28 2011 05:04 Keitzer wrote: I just wanted to know why he just wouldn't release it.... Like why the fuck spend millions of dollars covering it up?
Seems sketchy to me...
OH MY GOD. HE RELEASED IT IN TWO THOUSAND GOD DAMN EIGHT.
He released the long-form of his birth certificate in 2008? No, no he didn't.
I didn't even realize a "short-form" existed at all until this whole topic came up to begin with. I have 1 birth certificate, and it is the standard long-form. That's what people wanted to see, because that's what everyone has and uses for most legal requirements.
So please stop repeating yourself 6 times that he already released it. I personally don't give a damn about the topic but I hate strawman arguments nonetheless...
No, that's not what everyone has. That's the point. He had to request a special one from the Hawaiian government because Hawaiian citizens don't get a long form. What you have is probably a copy. I only have a short form certificate.
On April 28 2011 05:04 Keitzer wrote: I just wanted to know why he just wouldn't release it.... Like why the fuck spend millions of dollars covering it up?
Seems sketchy to me...
OH MY GOD. HE RELEASED IT IN TWO THOUSAND GOD DAMN EIGHT.
He released the long-form of his birth certificate in 2008? No, no he didn't.
I didn't even realize a "short-form" existed at all until this whole topic came up to begin with. I have 1 birth certificate, and it is the standard long-form. That's what people wanted to see, because that's what everyone has and uses for most legal requirements.
So please stop repeating yourself 6 times that he already released it. I personally don't give a damn about the topic but I hate strawman arguments nonetheless...
So seeing the signatures of his mother and doctor made the difference? I don't see any difference really in the long and short versions information..
If Hawaii is the same as the US, what happens is that the vital long form records are kept by the state and a certified copy is given to the parents. If the copy is lost, you can go to the government and request a certified copy. This is a short version of the certificate and is created when it is requested. The long form is usually kept on file and not released to anyone. The conspiracy theorists say that the short form is not "official" since it is created upon request, but in truth, no one has a copy of their long form certificate and they made an exception for obama, most people are holding onto a certified copy. (I was a Notary Public for a few years)
jesus fucking christ. Here is a list of all the Intelligence Agencies of the United States:
Independent agencies
Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)
United States Department of Defense
Air Force Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance Agency (AFISRA) Army Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM) Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) Marine Corps Intelligence National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) National Security Agency (NSA) Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI)
United States Department of Energy
Office of Intelligence and Counterintelligence (OICI)
United States Department of Homeland Security
Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A) Coast Guard Intelligence (CGI)
United States Department of Justice
Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA)
United States Department of State
Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR)
United States Department of the Treasury
Office of Terrorism and Financial Intelligence (TFI)
You're saying, with all this money and manpower and nationalistic belief, that NOBODY has made sure hes a fucking citizen before allowing him to run for president? How the fuck could there have been any doubt.
----
more on topic: I actually dont think he should have done anything at all. Die hard birthers will still claim he took 2 years to get this out because he was busy forging it, and people who never questioned it might wonder why hes spending time addressing silly claims.
That said, maybe the re-election campaign stuff is kicking into motion, so it's a political move to sway voters who were concerned about this.
Does anyone actually think you can even begin to think about starting a campaign for president without a billion pages of paperwork and proof? This is so fucking stupid rofl
Can we officially conclude that Trump is an idiot and shouldn't even be considered for the GOP nomination? I mean, just imagine if he wins and has to debate Obama. I'm sure this topic would come up and Trump would have literally nothing to say that doesn't make him look like a total idiot.
On April 28 2011 03:46 TheFrankOne wrote: The Arizona Law was blatantly unconstitutional; from Article IV Section I of the U.S. Constitution:
"Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof."
This means that Arizona cannot make a law that demands proof above and beyond the minimum federal requirements for presidential elections. So President Obama would have been on the ballot in Arizona, if they had passed the law following a short court case, or any other state's ballot that passes a similar law.
Well, the Federal requirement is basically... that you have to be a citizen etc. So it's not demanding extra proof, just clarifying that it needs to be proved to the state. Once again, in the United States the states are responsible for their part of the Federal elections. I'd agree that it's a blatantly partisan attempt to capitalize on the fact that this question came up in connection with the Obama candidacy/presidency, but there's no way it's unconstitutional. Essentially redundant, yes, but not unconstitutional. Passing a new law saying, "lol let's follow this other law that's already law" (the Constitutional requirements for President, in this case) is fundamentally stupid, but not unconstitutional.
On April 28 2011 04:23 Shichibukai wrote: Funny that the document brands people as "African" or "Caucasian". What's the term for their kid? And what if that kid has a child with an "Asian" person? I have no problem with those who want to divide people into "races" while talking, chatting informally etc, but to have it documented on a birth certificate? ^^ Weird country.
It's a holdover. I don't know how far it goes back, but that data was used first for Jim Crow laws (and similar) and then for affirmative action programs - some of the later still exist so I guess it's technically legally necessary or something but mostly it's something the US bureaucracy hasn't ever bothered to change.
Gah...inb4 TEA Baggers say that presenting the birth certificate took too long to release so a fake one can be produced.
I would respect the TEA Party and birthers more if they bitched more about the economy rather than the birth certificate, his religion, or if he is the anti-Christ. That would show the world that their priorities are straight.
On April 28 2011 05:43 overt wrote: Can we officially conclude that Trump is an idiot and shouldn't even be considered for the GOP nomination? I mean, just imagine if he wins and has to debate Obama. I'm sure this topic would come up and Trump would have literally nothing to say that doesn't make him look like a total idiot.
On April 28 2011 05:24 entocheets wrote: Read the comments about this on articles on the Fox News website. I don't know whether to feel angry or sorry for those people. Come on, America. Seriously now...
CNN is just as bad. In fact, I'm having a hard time distinguishing between the two based on the content of the articles and the comments that follow.
So that bankrupting moron with the face of a mole rat (Donald Trump) now gets to gloat about how he forced the president to do something that most of the country saw as meaningless in the first place.
Great... The Onion nailed it, dead on. I might send a mail to the mole rat myself, asking for a certificate of proof that he wasn't born from a mole rat. Because it certainly looks like he was.
If you are going to put a pool up I think a " I didn't care about the issue in 2008, I really don't care now in 2011" button in necessary. Honestly this is what is wrong with American politics from my point of view; To actually believe that one of the two biggest political parties would even nominate a candidate that could be disqualified by "the dog" Hawaii's best bounty hunter. Oh man that is a great TV show idea, giving this topic any more of my attention would be an injustice. I must now focus on getting this idea to A&E.
On April 28 2011 05:50 Maxwell3 wrote: /end thread.. really
The records in Hawaii were digitized a few years ago. The software used with document scanners does OCR and breaks up text into layers to make the documents searchable (which is useful when you're digitizing and archiving thousands of printed documents). That's why the PDF file has layers like that. I know because I just got a document scanner a couple weeks ago.
On April 28 2011 05:46 Shiragaku wrote: Gah...inb4 TEA Baggers say that presenting the birth certificate took too long to release so a fake one can be produced.
I would respect the TEA Party and birthers more if they bitched more about the economy rather than the birth certificate, his religion, or if he is the anti-Christ. That would show the world that their priorities are straight.
This has nothing to do with the tea party. I know you get your perception of them from the media, but in reality their #1 concern is and always has been the economy...
The scanner software we had at work had OCR on automatically and I assume a record keeping place would want to use OCR, maybe it's time to let it go guys.
On April 28 2011 06:09 JuJuZerg wrote: I guess any government insitutions that say this is "facts". must be the facts .
Assuming you are a birther, were you honest with yourself when this began?
That is, did you say, "I have no evidence he is not a citizen, but I think he is. I won't accept any evidence to the contrary because it wasn't provided fast enough, it is a forgery, it is a conspiracy within the government, etc."
If you aren't a birther this applies to everyone who voted they still don't believe it.
I agree with people saying that it's ridiculous that he was pressured to the point of releasing a birth certificate. I also believe Obama is a pretty awful president, but that has nothing to do with where he was born.
On April 28 2011 06:09 JuJuZerg wrote: I guess any government insitutions that say this is "facts". must be the facts .
Assuming you are a birther, were you honest with yourself when this began?
That is, did you say, "I have no evidence he is not a citizen, but I think he is. I won't accept any evidence to the contrary because it wasn't provided fast enough, it is a forgery, it is a conspiracy within the government, etc."
If you aren't a birther this applies to everyone who voted they still don't believe it.
im not a birther or anti birther, i wouldnt give a rats ass if he was or not because why would it matter and what can you do about it?
I thought America grew out of the conspiracy stage a long time ago. Oh well hey here is an idea, maybe we should ask him to produce a copy of the "alien" that crashed in the 1940s? If the government is gonna give us his birth certificate, let's see what else we can get out of it.
Edit:
On April 28 2011 06:23 GhettoSheep wrote: I feel sorry for the 8% of teamliquid that's dumb enough to think it's all a huge lie. I'm pretty sure at least 20% of American's couldn't produce their birth certificate on command.
I think Obama is just adding fuel to the fire instead of defusing it. It would have been better to just have released it back in 2008 and get it done with.
On April 28 2011 01:23 Oxygen wrote: where's the "does it even matter?" option?
This. I can't believe how much attention this is getting. I hope people (especially politicians) can now focus on stuff to actually improve the life of their supporters.
Exactly, since when did our country go from being a melting pot of immigrants and cultures to a place where "you have to be born here" to aspire to the highest position in America... this "birther" thing should really be raising a debate on whether we should keep this requirement of birth in the country in order to run for president. (Yes I understand someone should atleast have citizenship and a reasonable amount of residency time in the country)
On April 28 2011 01:48 Velocirapture wrote: I know there is a pretty strong anti-Obama sentiment on this site but I have to say that I find this kind of thing to be a VERY good sign. There are always extremists, but they usually don't get enough momentum to pass a law like in Arizona or put forth a reasonably popular presidential candidate like Trump (i literally laughed out loud as I typed that). What this indicates is that more moderate conservatives who usually are able to find more legitimate criticisms are desperate. A very good sign indeed (for Obama and those who support his policies at least).
This is a website, which is on the internet, and the internet seems to be largely liberal, so I would be surprised to find a lot of anti-obama sentiment on here. Especially since I think a lot of people are at least decently intelligent on this site, and thus would hold more liberal viewpoints.
"liberal" are two different things in this context.
In the USA "liberal" people are mostly democrafts and "lefties"
On April 28 2011 06:09 JuJuZerg wrote: I guess any government insitutions that say this is "facts". must be the facts .
Really? You're going to doubt everything the government says and does now? Sounds like a plan.
Make sure you don't use the roads, drink water, or go to a hospital. After all, the government can't be trusted, right?
you dont get the point do you?
You chose to make the claim that the government should be doubted, in every essence, in a discussion about Obama's origins. You are implying, by the associated topic of discussion, that you don't believe that document is factual.
In short, if nobody else is 'getting the point', you explained your point badly.
On April 28 2011 06:09 JuJuZerg wrote: I guess any government insitutions that say this is "facts". must be the facts .
Really? You're going to doubt everything the government says and does now? Sounds like a plan.
Make sure you don't use the roads, drink water, or go to a hospital. After all, the government can't be trusted, right?
you dont get the point do you?
The point is that if you don't trust the US government at all, even with trivialities like this, you might as well leave. Doing anything else won't accomplish anything.
Seriously I was only trying to troll with that video. Something Obama and the left can do now is paint the picture that Bill O'Reilly is a crazy unpatriotic nut job who believes in conspiracy theories. Would be pretty funny, no?
I think Obama is just adding fuel to the fire instead of defusing it. It would have been better to just have released it back in 2008 and get it done with.
It's likely that he either didn't care, because frankly it has always been a minority who held this position and it was something that none of the major candidates in 2008 brought up. Or it took the state of Hawaii this long to actually get him his birth certificate (pretty unlikely imo, since he's the freaking President). Or after it passed and no one cared anymore he saw Trump, who was becoming a more and more likely candidate for the GOP, and realized how stupid he could make him look by releasing the long form certificate.
There are a lot more people now who believe he wasn't born in America than there were in 2008. You also have one of the front runners from the GOP spewing this garbage. It makes a lot of sense to release it now.
On April 28 2011 06:39 Maxwell3 wrote: Seriously I was only trying to troll with that video. Something Obama and the left can do now is paint the picture that Bill O'Reilly is a crazy unpatriotic nut job who believes in conspiracy theories. Would be pretty funny, no?
Bill O'reilly actually said that he belived Obama was born in the US.
On April 28 2011 01:23 Oxygen wrote: where's the "does it even matter?" option?
This. I can't believe how much attention this is getting. I hope people (especially politicians) can now focus on stuff to actually improve the life of their supporters.
Exactly, since when did our country go from being a melting pot of immigrants and cultures to a place where "you have to be born here" to aspire to the highest position in America... this "birther" thing should really be raising a debate on whether we should keep this requirement of birth in the country in order to run for president. (Yes I understand someone should atleast have citizenship and a reasonable amount of residency time in the country)
On April 28 2011 01:48 Velocirapture wrote: I know there is a pretty strong anti-Obama sentiment on this site but I have to say that I find this kind of thing to be a VERY good sign. There are always extremists, but they usually don't get enough momentum to pass a law like in Arizona or put forth a reasonably popular presidential candidate like Trump (i literally laughed out loud as I typed that). What this indicates is that more moderate conservatives who usually are able to find more legitimate criticisms are desperate. A very good sign indeed (for Obama and those who support his policies at least).
This is a website, which is on the internet, and the internet seems to be largely liberal, so I would be surprised to find a lot of anti-obama sentiment on here. Especially since I think a lot of people are at least decently intelligent on this site, and thus would hold more liberal viewpoints.
"liberal" are two different things in this context.
In the USA "liberal" people are mostly democrafts and "lefties"
"Liberal" in the EU are right-wing!!
Pls notice!
Most studies indicate libertarians are the most intelligent political sect, but you do not see most libertarians playing that demeaning card (and frankly, I find no correlation betwixt the two). Also, as a Liberal (libertarian) I am not right-wing, nor left-wing. If anything you could say historically Liberalism is an individual left-wing ideology as Pierre Joseph-Proudhon and Frederic Bastiat sat on the left in the French assembly, and the aristocratic Monarchical supporters (old-regime) sat on the right. It made sense then to have a left-right, but today the left or the right have no coherent philosophy, and as such, when introduced to the Liberal who does, and who shares common ground with both they have no idea what to do with us. I mean, many of us are Anti - Standing Armies, which is in the US so much further to the so-called left, than any so-called leftists I ever ran into. Then they say since I support the Militia I am a righty. Then the same people will call me a lefty, when I advocate for the legalization of all drugs. Then they'll saw I'm a righty when I argue for no Income, Sales, or Property tax. I mean come on. Those terms are meaningless.
But, yes, liberal in American lexicon stands for the complete opposite of what liberalism actually is. I still am a bit bitter how they co-opted the word for my ideology.
The proper context would be:
American Liberal = Progressive American Libertarian = Liberal American Conservative = Conservative
On April 28 2011 06:39 Maxwell3 wrote: Seriously I was only trying to troll with that video. Something Obama and the left can do now is paint the picture that Bill O'Reilly is a crazy unpatriotic nut job who believes in conspiracy theories. Would be pretty funny, no?
Bill O'reilly actually said that he belived Obama was born in the US.
troll the right then? Idk, I don't watch his stupid show :/
Bad political move to release it now. Either do it the first go around when everyone started questioning it or use it if trump or anyone else tries to bring it up before the election.
Makes me wonder what the big deal was with releasing the long form, there's nothing on there that is so frightening like "Muslim" or his race.
Then again trump is full of shit. I consider myself conservative/social libertarian and would probably vote for trump if not for him basically lying about the property he owned and sold and saying "he had people in Hawaii and you wouldn't believe what they are finding".
And let's not forget the local birth announcement. It's all a conspiracy to set up the first black president that wasn't even born here. I'll bet that is fake too.
On April 28 2011 05:46 Shiragaku wrote: Gah...inb4 TEA Baggers say that presenting the birth certificate took too long to release so a fake one can be produced.
I would respect the TEA Party and birthers more if they bitched more about the economy rather than the birth certificate, his religion, or if he is the anti-Christ. That would show the world that their priorities are straight.
The Tea Party is not homogenous. Those of us actual Tea Partiers (You know the ones supporting Ron Paul in 2007 when we started the Tea Party) call the other half of the so-called Tea Party Tea-O-Cons, as they are nothing, but the same Neo-Conservative jackwipes we were fighting against in 2007.
I really dont think this will change anything. Now all those idiots like Donald Trump are just gonna come out and say "What took him so long to release it? Hes still hiding something!"
On April 28 2011 06:39 Maxwell3 wrote: Seriously I was only trying to troll with that video. Something Obama and the left can do now is paint the picture that Bill O'Reilly is a crazy unpatriotic nut job who believes in conspiracy theories. Would be pretty funny, no?
Bill O'reilly actually said that he belived Obama was born in the US.
STOP GIVING ATTN TO DONALD TRUMP. That guy is a troll.
"It is rather amazing that all of a sudden it materializes, but I hope it's the right deal, for sure, experts will look at it, and I am really happy and I'm really proud that I was able to bring this to a point nobody else was,"
??? ahh nuts. I can't comprehend this, but that just means I'm sane.
On April 28 2011 05:17 Jibba wrote: Just imagine how much the typical Limbaugh/Beck/Fox argument is going to change when they decide they want Schwarzenegger as President.
My disgust for this country grows on a daily basis.
On April 28 2011 07:09 BlackJack wrote: Wouldn't it have been better to release this like 2 weeks before the 2012 election?
lol...bro...he already showed his birth certificate 3 years ago....the one he is showing now is just the LONG form...
it is sad that he released a legal document 3 years ago that is more than enough to prove citizenship...and yet they wanted to see "real" proof. lmao.
What's really hilarious is that Donald Trump basically held his own conference after Obama and was like, yo, ya'll should thank me for getting this done. Fo' real. Oh, btw, I don't think Obama is smart, I don't think he got As in college, lets see his transcripts. When clearly, Obama is smart as fuck. Just go over his conference. He uses the word "bemusement" right for one; people generally misuse it to mean mild amusement when really it means confusion or puzzlement. Compared to Trump allowing his casino to go bankrupt, clearly, Donald Trump is in no position to question the intelligence of a clearly very smart man.
They released an image just like this 2 years ago, it was also a cetification of live birth and not a birth certificate.
its not like you can convince anyone on a starcraft forum.. if I wrote a 30 page essay it wouldn't matter
Obama is right when he says we have bigger issues to focus on.... like the engineered depression, the illegal creation of chimeras, the unification of the middle east against israel (and obama's illegal war on libya for which he must be immediately impeached), the takeover of genetically modified and dangerous species, evisceration of the rule of law in our country, the sidestepping of the constitution, the list goes on forevs
Barack Hussein Obama
Barack Hussein in arabic means with the blessing of Husayn (a muslim martyr)
O Ba Ma means He Is With Us
some shiite clerics and scholars believe Obama is the manifestation of the third Imam's prophecy foretelling of a warrior who will come to weaken the Western world and make the way for its subjugation by Allah (Sharia law).
If you recall the elections, CNN heralded obama as "the messiah," I forget who else but probably Time magazine or some other publication on that level was calling him the chosen one and the prophet.
In conclusion, his mother wasn't old enough to grant him natural born citizenship, and his father is a citizen of Kenya, which at the time was a british protectorate. At best, he's a naturalized American citizen, and at worst he is a dual citizen of america and indonesia, where his adoptive father naturalized him so he could attend school in Nationalist Indonesia.
Never before in American history has the country known so little about its president.
I still find it ridiculous that, in a country made predominantly of people who have descended from immigrants, a perfectly legitimate, and possibly better candidate, would not be allowed to stand for president. Even if Barack Obama had been born in Kenya and then gone to the US as a baby and grown up in the US, would it make a difference in how he performs as president?
This Murdoch campaign is in such poor taste and I wouldn't be surprised if they went back to questioning whether he's Muslim or not (I won't even go into how racist that is). The world doesn't need a 2nd Silvio Berlusconi and I will lose the small amount of respect I have left for the American political system (this is the respect that went up from 0 after the Bush administration became unpopular and you voted in a non-white man) if he becomes president.
On April 28 2011 07:54 Eufouria wrote: I still find it ridiculous that in a country made predominantly of people who have descended from immigrants, a perfectly legitimate, and possibly better candidate, would not be allowed to stand for president. Even if Barack Obama had been born in Kenya and then gone to the US as a baby and grown up in the US, would it make a difference in how he performs as president?
This Murdoch campaign is in such poor taste and I wouldn't be surprised if they went back to questioning whether he's Muslim or not (I won't even go into how racist that is). The world doesn't need a 2nd Silvio Berlusconi and I will lose the small amount of respect I have left for the American political system (this is the respect that went up from 0 after the Bush administration became unpopular and you voted in a non-white man).
The founders didn't want anyone who was not natural born to be the head executive, because their birthright would place them as subjects of foreign powers (primarily Britain)
New Thought has simply rewritten history and taught you that our values are racist / xenophobic
they knew foreign internationalist interests would hijack our government and erode our sovereignty (which is exactly whats happened)
I'll never understand what motivates you americans. seriously it feels from the news that that whole government shut down was less important to you than obama releasing his birth cert (ok that might be a little exaggerated but still you get what I mean)
On April 28 2011 07:59 Teivospy wrote: I'll never understand what motivates you americans. seriously it feels from the news that that whole government shut down was less important to you than obama releasing his birth cert (ok that might be a little exaggerated but still you get what I mean)
Perhaps this is because the international news media is heavily controlled and rigged?
On April 28 2011 07:59 Teivospy wrote: I'll never understand what motivates you americans. seriously it feels from the news that that whole government shut down was less important to you than obama releasing his birth cert (ok that might be a little exaggerated but still you get what I mean)
The press makes a big deal out of the whole birther bullshit because its far more exciting to read a newspaper article mentioning how there are a good number of high profile people who believe the President isn't constitutionally qualified compared to endless budget debates about a government deficit
And, for that matter, I believe the budget issue got far more attention in at the least the NY Times than the birth certificate crap
On April 28 2011 07:50 Coraz wrote: They released an image just like this 2 years ago, it was also a cetification of live birth and not a birth certificate.
its not like you can convince anyone on a starcraft forum.. if I wrote a 30 page essay it wouldn't matter
Obama is right when he says we have bigger issues to focus on.... like the engineered depression, the illegal creation of chimeras, the unification of the middle east against israel (and obama's illegal war on libya for which he must be immediately impeached), the takeover of genetically modified and dangerous species, evisceration of the rule of law in our country, the sidestepping of the constitution, the list goes on forevs
Barack Hussein Obama
Barack Hussein in arabic means with the blessing of Husayn (a muslim martyr)
O Ba Ma means He Is With Us
some shiite clerics and scholars believe Obama is the manifestation of the third Imam's prophecy foretelling of a warrior who will come to weaken the Western world and make the way for its subjugation by Allah (Sharia law).
If you recall the elections, CNN heralded obama as "the messiah," I forget who else but probably Time magazine or some other publication on that level was calling him the chosen one and the prophet.
In conclusion, his mother wasn't old enough to grant him natural born citizenship, and his father is a citizen of Kenya, which at the time was a british protectorate. At best, he's a naturalized American citizen, and at worst he is a dual citizen of america and indonesia, where his adoptive father naturalized him so he could attend school in Nationalist Indonesia.
Never before in American history has the country known so little about its president.
I think you should present some sources when you make such wild claims.
Also, the certificate of live birth should have been enough since it is the document you are given when born in Hawaii.
On April 28 2011 07:50 Coraz wrote: They released an image just like this 2 years ago, it was also a cetification of live birth and not a birth certificate.
its not like you can convince anyone on a starcraft forum.. if I wrote a 30 page essay it wouldn't matter
Obama is right when he says we have bigger issues to focus on.... like the engineered depression, the illegal creation of chimeras, the unification of the middle east against israel (and obama's illegal war on libya for which he must be immediately impeached), the takeover of genetically modified and dangerous species, evisceration of the rule of law in our country, the sidestepping of the constitution, the list goes on forevs
Say what? Senate could easily block the war on Libya. Impeach them too! (Well I guess that wouldn't work...)
Barack Hussein Obama
Barack Hussein in arabic means with the blessing of Husayn (a muslim martyr)
O Ba Ma means He Is With Us
some shiite clerics and scholars believe Obama is the manifestation of the third Imam's prophecy foretelling of a warrior who will come to weaken the Western world and make the way for its subjugation by Allah (Sharia law).
lol
In conclusion, his mother wasn't old enough to grant him natural born citizenship, and his father is a citizen of Kenya, which at the time was a british protectorate. At best, he's a naturalized American citizen, and at worst he is a dual citizen of america and indonesia, where his adoptive father naturalized him so he could attend school in Nationalist Indonesia.
Never before in American history has the country known so little about its president.
The beautiful thing about being in a democracy is that you can just say things that aren't true like that, you can speculate and rehash stuff and completely ignore facts and in the end, nobody's going to come after you.
On April 28 2011 07:50 Coraz wrote: They released an image just like this 2 years ago, it was also a cetification of live birth and not a birth certificate.
its not like you can convince anyone on a starcraft forum.. if I wrote a 30 page essay it wouldn't matter
Obama is right when he says we have bigger issues to focus on.... like the engineered depression, the illegal creation of chimeras, the unification of the middle east against israel (and obama's illegal war on libya for which he must be immediately impeached), the takeover of genetically modified and dangerous species, evisceration of the rule of law in our country, the sidestepping of the constitution, the list goes on forevs
Barack Hussein Obama
Barack Hussein in arabic means with the blessing of Husayn (a muslim martyr)
O Ba Ma means He Is With Us
some shiite clerics and scholars believe Obama is the manifestation of the third Imam's prophecy foretelling of a warrior who will come to weaken the Western world and make the way for its subjugation by Allah (Sharia law).
If you recall the elections, CNN heralded obama as "the messiah," I forget who else but probably Time magazine or some other publication on that level was calling him the chosen one and the prophet.
In conclusion, his mother wasn't old enough to grant him natural born citizenship, and his father is a citizen of Kenya, which at the time was a british protectorate. At best, he's a naturalized American citizen, and at worst he is a dual citizen of america and indonesia, where his adoptive father naturalized him so he could attend school in Nationalist Indonesia.
Never before in American history has the country known so little about its president.
Wow dude.... just wow....... you embarrass me as an American.
On April 28 2011 08:01 On_Slaught wrote: Glenn Beck is saying this is a big conspiracy and the only reason he released the certificate today is because Berneike was going to talk.
I don't think Glenn Beck has ever said anything of real substance ever.
On April 28 2011 07:50 Coraz wrote: They released an image just like this 2 years ago, it was also a cetification of live birth and not a birth certificate.
its not like you can convince anyone on a starcraft forum.. if I wrote a 30 page essay it wouldn't matter
Obama is right when he says we have bigger issues to focus on.... like the engineered depression, the illegal creation of chimeras, the unification of the middle east against israel (and obama's illegal war on libya for which he must be immediately impeached), the takeover of genetically modified and dangerous species, evisceration of the rule of law in our country, the sidestepping of the constitution, the list goes on forevs
Barack Hussein Obama
Barack Hussein in arabic means with the blessing of Husayn (a muslim martyr)
O Ba Ma means He Is With Us
some shiite clerics and scholars believe Obama is the manifestation of the third Imam's prophecy foretelling of a warrior who will come to weaken the Western world and make the way for its subjugation by Allah (Sharia law).
If you recall the elections, CNN heralded obama as "the messiah," I forget who else but probably Time magazine or some other publication on that level was calling him the chosen one and the prophet.
In conclusion, his mother wasn't old enough to grant him natural born citizenship, and his father is a citizen of Kenya, which at the time was a british protectorate. At best, he's a naturalized American citizen, and at worst he is a dual citizen of america and indonesia, where his adoptive father naturalized him so he could attend school in Nationalist Indonesia.
Never before in American history has the country known so little about its president.
No idea how this is relevant at all to anything ever. Which makes me question all of your post. So, source?
On April 28 2011 07:50 Coraz wrote: They released an image just like this 2 years ago, it was also a cetification of live birth and not a birth certificate.
its not like you can convince anyone on a starcraft forum.. if I wrote a 30 page essay it wouldn't matter
Obama is right when he says we have bigger issues to focus on.... like the engineered depression, the illegal creation of chimeras, the unification of the middle east against israel (and obama's illegal war on libya for which he must be immediately impeached), the takeover of genetically modified and dangerous species, evisceration of the rule of law in our country, the sidestepping of the constitution, the list goes on forevs
Barack Hussein Obama
Barack Hussein in arabic means with the blessing of Husayn (a muslim martyr)
O Ba Ma means He Is With Us
some shiite clerics and scholars believe Obama is the manifestation of the third Imam's prophecy foretelling of a warrior who will come to weaken the Western world and make the way for its subjugation by Allah (Sharia law).
If you recall the elections, CNN heralded obama as "the messiah," I forget who else but probably Time magazine or some other publication on that level was calling him the chosen one and the prophet.
In conclusion, his mother wasn't old enough to grant him natural born citizenship, and his father is a citizen of Kenya, which at the time was a british protectorate. At best, he's a naturalized American citizen, and at worst he is a dual citizen of america and indonesia, where his adoptive father naturalized him so he could attend school in Nationalist Indonesia.
Never before in American history has the country known so little about its president.
Wow dude.... just wow....... you embarrass me as an American.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter. It's all been planned years in advance, and in the future they will openly and happily admit Obama wasn't an American citizen, because by then there will be a new and different administration and no one will ever be punished. It's like what Noam Chomsky says about 9/11 truth. Ultimately, it doesn't matter because nothing will change, even if the government admits it staged the attacks.
Drop a couple sound bytes for the corporate media, and the case is closed. No one will care, the out of control government will continue on its course for chaos.
On April 28 2011 07:50 Coraz wrote: They released an image just like this 2 years ago, it was also a cetification of live birth and not a birth certificate.
its not like you can convince anyone on a starcraft forum.. if I wrote a 30 page essay it wouldn't matter
Obama is right when he says we have bigger issues to focus on.... like the engineered depression, the illegal creation of chimeras, the unification of the middle east against israel (and obama's illegal war on libya for which he must be immediately impeached), the takeover of genetically modified and dangerous species, evisceration of the rule of law in our country, the sidestepping of the constitution, the list goes on forevs
Barack Hussein Obama
Barack Hussein in arabic means with the blessing of Husayn (a muslim martyr)
O Ba Ma means He Is With Us
some shiite clerics and scholars believe Obama is the manifestation of the third Imam's prophecy foretelling of a warrior who will come to weaken the Western world and make the way for its subjugation by Allah (Sharia law).
If you recall the elections, CNN heralded obama as "the messiah," I forget who else but probably Time magazine or some other publication on that level was calling him the chosen one and the prophet.
In conclusion, his mother wasn't old enough to grant him natural born citizenship, and his father is a citizen of Kenya, which at the time was a british protectorate. At best, he's a naturalized American citizen, and at worst he is a dual citizen of america and indonesia, where his adoptive father naturalized him so he could attend school in Nationalist Indonesia.
Never before in American history has the country known so little about its president.
Wow dude.... just wow....... you embarrass me as an American.
On April 28 2011 07:50 Coraz wrote: They released an image just like this 2 years ago, it was also a cetification of live birth and not a birth certificate.
its not like you can convince anyone on a starcraft forum.. if I wrote a 30 page essay it wouldn't matter
Obama is right when he says we have bigger issues to focus on.... like the engineered depression, the illegal creation of chimeras, the unification of the middle east against israel (and obama's illegal war on libya for which he must be immediately impeached), the takeover of genetically modified and dangerous species, evisceration of the rule of law in our country, the sidestepping of the constitution, the list goes on forevs
Barack Hussein Obama
Barack Hussein in arabic means with the blessing of Husayn (a muslim martyr)
O Ba Ma means He Is With Us
some shiite clerics and scholars believe Obama is the manifestation of the third Imam's prophecy foretelling of a warrior who will come to weaken the Western world and make the way for its subjugation by Allah (Sharia law).
If you recall the elections, CNN heralded obama as "the messiah," I forget who else but probably Time magazine or some other publication on that level was calling him the chosen one and the prophet.
In conclusion, his mother wasn't old enough to grant him natural born citizenship, and his father is a citizen of Kenya, which at the time was a british protectorate. At best, he's a naturalized American citizen, and at worst he is a dual citizen of america and indonesia, where his adoptive father naturalized him so he could attend school in Nationalist Indonesia.
Never before in American history has the country known so little about its president.
I think you should present some sources when you make such wild claims.
Also, the certificate of live birth should have been enough since it is the document you are given when born in Hawaii.
What's entertaining about the current american "debate" is that it is difficult to tell whether that is a troll or not.
I think this is just another manifestation of the racism that many people harbor. Obama shouldn't have had to jump through all these hoops, his damn birth certificate was posted on his web site but people demanded the long form. So he finally has it an people still won't believe it, the whole point is that is that there is no talking to there people. They are determined to think that Obama is not THEIR president because he is black. That is the same reason why they keep bringing up his middle name and accusing him of being a Muslim.
As if it would matter if Obama was a Muslim even though he is certainly not. A bunch of racist right wing morons cook up these conspiracy theories to demonize Obama and make a buck doing it from gullible fools who can't deal with the existence of a legitimate black president.
No man should weild so much power as the president of the US does. Power corrupts even the best of men. And think what it does to lesser men.
Hiring a leader for a country should be contucted like a job interview. Possible candidates should be presented based on previous records at leadership and diplomacy. Some sort of un-biased board needs to sort out a couple of candidates. The board consisting of academics from diffrent areas (like enviorment, social studies etc), corporate leaders representing the countries companies, union reps representing the working man, and other big groups in need of representation like elderly, youth, handicapped etc. Each member on the board must present good arguments for each candidate suggested to the public.
The public then gets to see the candidates do pre-planned interviews discussing real issues a leader would face, they would need to present their streanghts and weaknesses just like in a job interview. And some sort of big debates with all candidates.
No candidate or interest group is allowed to spend money on commercials trying to influence the public.
When each candidate has shown his previous records and credentials, suggestions for the future of the country. Then the public casts its vote
And ye i made this up in 5 min.
But the party system in most modern countries are so flawed. If you are not in one of the big parties ur almost screwed to get ur voice heard or get funding for election. Good ideas are minced out and left is the bland grey compromises.
excuse me but I have a BA in political science and I study the US government and US law, people who are LULZing and calling me a troll are incorrect, and the guy who said i made him sad to be an American, well, it makes me sad you hate people like me who love our country and our Constitution.
you don't have to sift through the secret database of all my posts like you're sorting through my garbage trying to get the advantage on me
anyways its clear I won't get anywhere thanks for listening at least
On April 28 2011 08:12 Coraz wrote: excuse me but I have a BA in political science and I study the US government and US law, people who are LULZing and calling me a troll incorrect, and the guy who said i made him sad to be an American, well, it makes me sad you hate people like me who love our country and our Constitution.
you don't have to sift through the secret database of all my posts like you're sorting through my garbage trying to get the advantage on me
anyways its clear I won't get anywhere thanks for listening at least
It doesn't matter what level of education you have. Prior posts are normally a good indication of how serious you are, because until I checked them I thought you were joking. All I want is some source on your claims or some kind of further reading I can do. And again, how is the President's name or what some religious scholars think relevant to this discussion?
On April 28 2011 07:50 Coraz wrote: They released an image just like this 2 years ago, it was also a cetification of live birth and not a birth certificate.
its not like you can convince anyone on a starcraft forum.. if I wrote a 30 page essay it wouldn't matter
Obama is right when he says we have bigger issues to focus on.... like the engineered depression, the illegal creation of chimeras, the unification of the middle east against israel (and obama's illegal war on libya for which he must be immediately impeached), the takeover of genetically modified and dangerous species, evisceration of the rule of law in our country, the sidestepping of the constitution, the list goes on forevs
Barack Hussein Obama
Barack Hussein in arabic means with the blessing of Husayn (a muslim martyr)
O Ba Ma means He Is With Us
some shiite clerics and scholars believe Obama is the manifestation of the third Imam's prophecy foretelling of a warrior who will come to weaken the Western world and make the way for its subjugation by Allah (Sharia law).
If you recall the elections, CNN heralded obama as "the messiah," I forget who else but probably Time magazine or some other publication on that level was calling him the chosen one and the prophet.
In conclusion, his mother wasn't old enough to grant him natural born citizenship, and his father is a citizen of Kenya, which at the time was a british protectorate. At best, he's a naturalized American citizen, and at worst he is a dual citizen of america and indonesia, where his adoptive father naturalized him so he could attend school in Nationalist Indonesia.
Never before in American history has the country known so little about its president.
On April 28 2011 07:50 Coraz wrote: They released an image just like this 2 years ago, it was also a cetification of live birth and not a birth certificate.
its not like you can convince anyone on a starcraft forum.. if I wrote a 30 page essay it wouldn't matter
Obama is right when he says we have bigger issues to focus on.... like the engineered depression, the illegal creation of chimeras, the unification of the middle east against israel (and obama's illegal war on libya for which he must be immediately impeached), the takeover of genetically modified and dangerous species, evisceration of the rule of law in our country, the sidestepping of the constitution, the list goes on forevs
Barack Hussein Obama
Barack Hussein in arabic means with the blessing of Husayn (a muslim martyr)
O Ba Ma means He Is With Us
some shiite clerics and scholars believe Obama is the manifestation of the third Imam's prophecy foretelling of a warrior who will come to weaken the Western world and make the way for its subjugation by Allah (Sharia law).
If you recall the elections, CNN heralded obama as "the messiah," I forget who else but probably Time magazine or some other publication on that level was calling him the chosen one and the prophet.
In conclusion, his mother wasn't old enough to grant him natural born citizenship, and his father is a citizen of Kenya, which at the time was a british protectorate. At best, he's a naturalized American citizen, and at worst he is a dual citizen of america and indonesia, where his adoptive father naturalized him so he could attend school in Nationalist Indonesia.
Never before in American history has the country known so little about its president.
Wow dude.... just wow....... you embarrass me as an American.
On April 28 2011 07:54 Eufouria wrote: I still find it ridiculous that in a country made predominantly of people who have descended from immigrants, a perfectly legitimate, and possibly better candidate, would not be allowed to stand for president. Even if Barack Obama had been born in Kenya and then gone to the US as a baby and grown up in the US, would it make a difference in how he performs as president?
This Murdoch campaign is in such poor taste and I wouldn't be surprised if they went back to questioning whether he's Muslim or not (I won't even go into how racist that is). The world doesn't need a 2nd Silvio Berlusconi and I will lose the small amount of respect I have left for the American political system (this is the respect that went up from 0 after the Bush administration became unpopular and you voted in a non-white man).
The founders didn't want anyone who was not natural born to be the head executive, because their birthright would place them as subjects of foreign powers (primarily Britain)
New Thought has simply rewritten history and taught you that our values are racist / xenophobic
they knew foreign internationalist interests would hijack our government and erode our sovereignty (which is exactly whats happened)
I can see the logic behind the original idea, but its kind of hypercritical, since they were all like 3rd generation immigrants and their fathers and grandfathers had spent their lives taking the original inhabitants land. I wouldn't describe the American ideals as racist, but they are slightly xenophobic. Also I don't quite understand what you mean by hijacking the government. What foreign power has hijacked the America and eroded your sovereignty?
On April 28 2011 07:59 Teivospy wrote: I'll never understand what motivates you americans. seriously it feels from the news that that whole government shut down was less important to you than obama releasing his birth cert (ok that might be a little exaggerated but still you get what I mean)
Perhaps this is because the international news media is heavily controlled and rigged?
lolfoxnews. The international media, or at least the British media, is fairly neutral to America, dare I say even slightly pro (I'm talking about the BBC/ITV ect. here, the non-tabloid channels, surprisingly Sky loves America!) My views on America are from finding out on the internet what issues seem to be important to Americans when deciding on the leader of their countries (examples include; their place of birth, if they are a muslim, if they are a good christian, what their views on abortion are and whether they love America more than the other person).
On April 28 2011 08:12 Coraz wrote: excuse me but I have a BA in political science and I study the US government and US law, people who are LULZing and calling me a troll are incorrect, and the guy who said i made him sad to be an American, well, it makes me sad you hate people like me who love our country and our Constitution.
you don't have to sift through the secret database of all my posts like you're sorting through my garbage trying to get the advantage on me
anyways its clear I won't get anywhere thanks for listening at least
You will forgive us if we find your theory about Obama being (as far as I can work out) a secret Muslim fundamentalist sent to weaken the western world in part of some global jihad conspiracy difficult to swallow.
It's just that, you see, it sounds completely mental. Particularly when the evidence provided is that his name means something else in a different language and that someone on CNN called him messianic.
On April 28 2011 01:18 Blix wrote: This makes me sad... where is the birth certificate of clinton or bush?
The had to give them before they were considered by the electoral college. Factually speaking Obama is the unique one in not needing to show his to be considered to be voted for by the electoral college.
On April 28 2011 07:50 Coraz wrote: They released an image just like this 2 years ago, it was also a cetification of live birth and not a birth certificate.
its not like you can convince anyone on a starcraft forum.. if I wrote a 30 page essay it wouldn't matter
Obama is right when he says we have bigger issues to focus on.... like the engineered depression, the illegal creation of chimeras, the unification of the middle east against israel (and obama's illegal war on libya for which he must be immediately impeached), the takeover of genetically modified and dangerous species, evisceration of the rule of law in our country, the sidestepping of the constitution, the list goes on forevs
Barack Hussein Obama
Barack Hussein in arabic means with the blessing of Husayn (a muslim martyr)
O Ba Ma means He Is With Us
some shiite clerics and scholars believe Obama is the manifestation of the third Imam's prophecy foretelling of a warrior who will come to weaken the Western world and make the way for its subjugation by Allah (Sharia law).
If you recall the elections, CNN heralded obama as "the messiah," I forget who else but probably Time magazine or some other publication on that level was calling him the chosen one and the prophet.
In conclusion, his mother wasn't old enough to grant him natural born citizenship, and his father is a citizen of Kenya, which at the time was a british protectorate. At best, he's a naturalized American citizen, and at worst he is a dual citizen of america and indonesia, where his adoptive father naturalized him so he could attend school in Nationalist Indonesia.
Never before in American history has the country known so little about its president.
Actually, if you please could write a 30 page essay on "chimeras" and the conspiracy between CNN and Shiite clerics to herald in Allah's next prophet, I would be extremely grateful, and would read every word of it.
On April 28 2011 07:50 Coraz wrote: Barack Hussein Obama
Barack Hussein in arabic means with the blessing of Husayn (a muslim martyr)
O Ba Ma means He Is With Us
some shiite clerics and scholars believe Obama is the manifestation of the third Imam's prophecy foretelling of a warrior who will come to weaken the Western world and make the way for its subjugation by Allah (Sharia law).
If you recall the elections, CNN heralded obama as "the messiah," I forget who else but probably Time magazine or some other publication on that level was calling him the chosen one and the prophet.
What is your opinion on this? Do you think that Islamic prophecy is the Truth?
On April 28 2011 07:50 Coraz wrote: They released an image just like this 2 years ago, it was also a cetification of live birth and not a birth certificate.
its not like you can convince anyone on a starcraft forum.. if I wrote a 30 page essay it wouldn't matter
Obama is right when he says we have bigger issues to focus on.... like the engineered depression, the illegal creation of chimeras, the unification of the middle east against israel (and obama's illegal war on libya for which he must be immediately impeached), the takeover of genetically modified and dangerous species, evisceration of the rule of law in our country, the sidestepping of the constitution, the list goes on forevs
Barack Hussein Obama
Barack Hussein in arabic means with the blessing of Husayn (a muslim martyr)
O Ba Ma means He Is With Us
some shiite clerics and scholars believe Obama is the manifestation of the third Imam's prophecy foretelling of a warrior who will come to weaken the Western world and make the way for its subjugation by Allah (Sharia law).
If you recall the elections, CNN heralded obama as "the messiah," I forget who else but probably Time magazine or some other publication on that level was calling him the chosen one and the prophet.
In conclusion, his mother wasn't old enough to grant him natural born citizenship, and his father is a citizen of Kenya, which at the time was a british protectorate. At best, he's a naturalized American citizen, and at worst he is a dual citizen of america and indonesia, where his adoptive father naturalized him so he could attend school in Nationalist Indonesia.
Never before in American history has the country known so little about its president.
Wow dude.... just wow....... you embarrass me as an American.
On April 28 2011 07:54 Eufouria wrote: I still find it ridiculous that in a country made predominantly of people who have descended from immigrants, a perfectly legitimate, and possibly better candidate, would not be allowed to stand for president. Even if Barack Obama had been born in Kenya and then gone to the US as a baby and grown up in the US, would it make a difference in how he performs as president?
This Murdoch campaign is in such poor taste and I wouldn't be surprised if they went back to questioning whether he's Muslim or not (I won't even go into how racist that is). The world doesn't need a 2nd Silvio Berlusconi and I will lose the small amount of respect I have left for the American political system (this is the respect that went up from 0 after the Bush administration became unpopular and you voted in a non-white man).
The founders didn't want anyone who was not natural born to be the head executive, because their birthright would place them as subjects of foreign powers (primarily Britain)
New Thought has simply rewritten history and taught you that our values are racist / xenophobic
they knew foreign internationalist interests would hijack our government and erode our sovereignty (which is exactly whats happened)
I can see the logic behind the original idea, but its kind of hypercritical, since they were all like 3rd generation immigrants and their fathers and grandfathers had spent their lives taking the original inhabitants land. I wouldn't describe the American ideals as racist, but they are slightly xenophobic. Also I don't quite understand what you mean by hijacking the government. What foreign power has hijacked the America and eroded your sovereignty?
On April 28 2011 07:59 Teivospy wrote: I'll never understand what motivates you americans. seriously it feels from the news that that whole government shut down was less important to you than obama releasing his birth cert (ok that might be a little exaggerated but still you get what I mean)
Perhaps this is because the international news media is heavily controlled and rigged?
lolfoxnews. The international media, or at least the British media, is fairly neutral to America, dare I say even slightly pro (I'm talking about the BBC/ITV ect. here, the non-tabloid channels, surprisingly Sky loves America!) My views on America are from finding out on the internet what issues seem to be important to Americans when deciding on the leader of their countries (examples include; their place of birth, if they are a muslim, if they are a good christian, what their views on abortion are and whether they love America more than the other person).
Seriously asking that? Foreign powers vie for control all the time, and are highly influential. AIPAC runs most of our Foreign Policy, and Saudi Arabia would like us to attack most of their neighboring enemies (and we almost did). They both have heavy lobbyist organizations, and of course, while we control most of what NATO and the UN does, they also take control from individual Americans as they are Globalist institutions which have tremendous clout and weight in determining American Policy. I am just tired of getting taxed and inflated to death, my liberties eroded, and the country going bankrupt because we are fighting other peoples wars, paying/subsidizing their defense, and having the Government run around the world killing innocent people.
However, this issue is seperate from the non-sense that is the goddamn certificate which is Bread and Circus sideshow distraction.
On April 28 2011 08:12 Coraz wrote: excuse me but I have a BA in political science and I study the US government and US law, people who are LULZing and calling me a troll are incorrect, and the guy who said i made him sad to be an American, well, it makes me sad you hate people like me who love our country and our Constitution.
you don't have to sift through the secret database of all my posts like you're sorting through my garbage trying to get the advantage on me
anyways its clear I won't get anywhere thanks for listening at least
Honestly I have to ask what university? In what lala land do you think Obama meets the mahdi criteria?
The Mahdi will be a descendant of Muhammad of the line of Fatimah, He will be descendent by one side (by one of the parents) by Hassan and by another by Hussain. He will have the same name as Muhammad. He will be a fore-runner to Jesus' Islamic Rule. His coming will be accompanied by the raising of a Black Standard. His coming will be accompanied by the appearance of the Masih ad-Dajjal (Antichrist). There will be a lunar and solar eclipse within the same month of Ramadan. A star with a luminous tail will rise from the East before the coming of the Mahdi. He will establish the Caliphate. He will fill the world with justice and fairness at a time when the world will be filled with oppression, which is war and calamities. He will have a broad forehead, a prominent nose, and a natural mascara will ring his eyes. His face shall shine upon the surface of the Moon.[6] The name of the Mahdi's representative will begin with the first-letter of a prophet's name and a verse of the Qur'an: ی (English: Y).[6]
1. He is obviously not a descendent of Muhammad through Fatimah. His mother is white, his father is black. He doesn't look like a semite at all infact.
2. His name is obviously not Muhammad.
3-6. Possible but very unlikely. Who is the anti christ? Was it bush?
7. Didn't happen yet.
8. Not yet.
9. Only caliphate is in Jordan but it is not from the descendent of Ali.
10. Obama started wars, pretty much excludes him.
11. Have you seen his nose?!
12. No obama face on moon.
11. Quite possible, Mohammad had 99+1 names.
BTW I match this list a heck of a lot more than Obama. Fear me!
On April 28 2011 07:50 Coraz wrote: They released an image just like this 2 years ago, it was also a cetification of live birth and not a birth certificate.
its not like you can convince anyone on a starcraft forum.. if I wrote a 30 page essay it wouldn't matter
Obama is right when he says we have bigger issues to focus on.... like the engineered depression, the illegal creation of chimeras, the unification of the middle east against israel (and obama's illegal war on libya for which he must be immediately impeached), the takeover of genetically modified and dangerous species, evisceration of the rule of law in our country, the sidestepping of the constitution, the list goes on forevs
Barack Hussein Obama
Barack Hussein in arabic means with the blessing of Husayn (a muslim martyr)
O Ba Ma means He Is With Us
some shiite clerics and scholars believe Obama is the manifestation of the third Imam's prophecy foretelling of a warrior who will come to weaken the Western world and make the way for its subjugation by Allah (Sharia law).
If you recall the elections, CNN heralded obama as "the messiah," I forget who else but probably Time magazine or some other publication on that level was calling him the chosen one and the prophet.
In conclusion, his mother wasn't old enough to grant him natural born citizenship, and his father is a citizen of Kenya, which at the time was a british protectorate. At best, he's a naturalized American citizen, and at worst he is a dual citizen of america and indonesia, where his adoptive father naturalized him so he could attend school in Nationalist Indonesia.
Never before in American history has the country known so little about its president.
My favorite part was "In conclusion..." Although "illegal creation fo chimera's" was good too.
On April 28 2011 01:18 Blix wrote: This makes me sad... where is the birth certificate of clinton or bush?
The had to give them before they were considered by the electoral college. Factually speaking Obama is the unique one in not needing to show his to be considered to be voted for by the electoral college.
Uhhh source? I have to assume that you are seriously spouting ignorant bullshit unless you have a legit source for that statement.
On April 28 2011 01:18 Blix wrote: This makes me sad... where is the birth certificate of clinton or bush?
The had to give them before they were considered by the electoral college. Factually speaking Obama is the unique one in not needing to show his to be considered to be voted for by the electoral college.
No, factually speaking Obama also had to show his to be considered for the electoral college. Fictionally speaking, Obama was the unique one in not needing to show his to be considered.
Many people are confused by the fact that the literal title of the document is "Certificate of Live Birth" rather than "Birth Certificate". Hawaii literally does not issue "Birth Certificates," the "Certificate of Live Birth" is the title of their state's birth document... that's just the way their State handles things. Perhaps people who are confused by this should lobby for the Federal government to take over the States' role of issuing proof of their residents' birth, that way there could be one national form?
On April 28 2011 01:18 Blix wrote: This makes me sad... where is the birth certificate of clinton or bush?
The had to give them before they were considered by the electoral college. Factually speaking Obama is the unique one in not needing to show his to be considered to be voted for by the electoral college.
As far as the government and good old-fashioned LAW is concerned (excluding Arizona, apparently), the Hawaii Certificate of Live Birth is enough.
On April 28 2011 07:50 Coraz wrote: They released an image just like this 2 years ago, it was also a cetification of live birth and not a birth certificate.
its not like you can convince anyone on a starcraft forum.. if I wrote a 30 page essay it wouldn't matter
Obama is right when he says we have bigger issues to focus on.... like the engineered depression, the illegal creation of chimeras, the unification of the middle east against israel (and obama's illegal war on libya for which he must be immediately impeached), the takeover of genetically modified and dangerous species, evisceration of the rule of law in our country, the sidestepping of the constitution, the list goes on forevs
Barack Hussein Obama
Barack Hussein in arabic means with the blessing of Husayn (a muslim martyr)
O Ba Ma means He Is With Us
some shiite clerics and scholars believe Obama is the manifestation of the third Imam's prophecy foretelling of a warrior who will come to weaken the Western world and make the way for its subjugation by Allah (Sharia law).
If you recall the elections, CNN heralded obama as "the messiah," I forget who else but probably Time magazine or some other publication on that level was calling him the chosen one and the prophet.
In conclusion, his mother wasn't old enough to grant him natural born citizenship, and his father is a citizen of Kenya, which at the time was a british protectorate. At best, he's a naturalized American citizen, and at worst he is a dual citizen of america and indonesia, where his adoptive father naturalized him so he could attend school in Nationalist Indonesia.
Never before in American history has the country known so little about its president.
I just wanted to say that this is literally the stupidest thing I've ever read on TeamLiquid, and I hope for the sake of humanity you get yourself sterilized.
My name has significant Christian meaning, but I'm an atheist and I'm facepalming right now imagining someone writing something like this about me using my name as proof that I'm a secret Christian trying to use my dark voodoo magic to destroy a country.
On April 28 2011 07:50 Coraz wrote: They released an image just like this 2 years ago, it was also a cetification of live birth and not a birth certificate.
its not like you can convince anyone on a starcraft forum.. if I wrote a 30 page essay it wouldn't matter
Obama is right when he says we have bigger issues to focus on.... like the engineered depression, the illegal creation of chimeras, the unification of the middle east against israel (and obama's illegal war on libya for which he must be immediately impeached), the takeover of genetically modified and dangerous species, evisceration of the rule of law in our country, the sidestepping of the constitution, the list goes on forevs
Barack Hussein Obama
Barack Hussein in arabic means with the blessing of Husayn (a muslim martyr)
O Ba Ma means He Is With Us
some shiite clerics and scholars believe Obama is the manifestation of the third Imam's prophecy foretelling of a warrior who will come to weaken the Western world and make the way for its subjugation by Allah (Sharia law).
If you recall the elections, CNN heralded obama as "the messiah," I forget who else but probably Time magazine or some other publication on that level was calling him the chosen one and the prophet.
In conclusion, his mother wasn't old enough to grant him natural born citizenship, and his father is a citizen of Kenya, which at the time was a british protectorate. At best, he's a naturalized American citizen, and at worst he is a dual citizen of america and indonesia, where his adoptive father naturalized him so he could attend school in Nationalist Indonesia.
Never before in American history has the country known so little about its president.
I just wanted to say that this is literally the stupidest thing I've ever read on TeamLiquid, and I hope for the sake of humanity you get yourself sterilized.
My name has significant Christian meaning, but I'm an atheist and I'm facepalming right now imagining someone writing something like this about me using my name as proof that I'm a secret Christian trying to use my dark voodoo magic to destroy a country.
My first name literally means 'bearing Christ'.
Apparently I'm pregnant with the second coming. And I'm a dude. ALL HAIL ME.
They released an image just like this 2 years ago, it was also a cetification of live birth and not a birth certificate.
Straight off of Wikipedia: "... the states file an individual document for each and every birth. In most states this document is entitled a 'Certificate of Live Birth'."
Certificates of live birth and birth certificates are one and the same.
Barack Hussein in arabic means with the blessing of Husayn (a muslim martyr)
O Ba Ma means He Is With Us
some shiite clerics and scholars believe Obama is the manifestation of the third Imam's prophecy foretelling of a warrior who will come to weaken the Western world and make the way for its subjugation by Allah (Sharia law).
If you recall the elections, CNN heralded obama as "the messiah," I forget who else but probably Time magazine or some other publication on that level was calling him the chosen one and the prophet.
Seems most of that information was taking off of here.
It is mere coincidence. Don't get ahead of yourself. "O Ba Ma" means "He is with us" in Persian; I don't know whether that detracts from the legitimacy of the coincidence, but just thought it was interesting.
In conclusion, his mother wasn't old enough to grant him natural born citizenship, and his father is a citizen of Kenya, which at the time was a british protectorate. At best, he's a naturalized American citizen, and at worst he is a dual citizen of america and indonesia, where his adoptive father naturalized him so he could attend school in Nationalist Indonesia.
President Barack Obama was born in Hawaii. The birth certificate is right here if you want to take a look. I don't know how old a mother must be to grant natural-born citizenship, but she was 18 according to the document, and I believe that it's sufficient.
Can anyone explain to me why this even came up? Was there some sort of evidence to suggest he was born anywhere else?
I mean, I have never heard people demand Clinton or Bush's birth certificate. Why was the burden on proof suddenly on Obama?
Someone like Coraz please explain. Even if it is true that he wasn't born in the US, how did you people find out before realizing there was no birth certificate or it was a fake one or whatever the argument now is. How did this start?
On April 28 2011 08:11 Sabu113 wrote: What's entertaining about the current american "debate" is that it is difficult to tell whether that is a troll or not.
Any sufficiently advanced wingnuttery is indistinguishable from parody.
They released an image just like this 2 years ago, it was also a cetification of live birth and not a birth certificate.
its not like you can convince anyone on a starcraft forum.. if I wrote a 30 page essay it wouldn't matter
Obama is right when he says we have bigger issues to focus on.... like the engineered depression, the illegal creation of chimeras, the unification of the middle east against israel (and obama's illegal war on libya for which he must be immediately impeached), the takeover of genetically modified and dangerous species, evisceration of the rule of law in our country, the sidestepping of the constitution, the list goes on forevs
Barack Hussein Obama
Barack Hussein in arabic means with the blessing of Husayn (a muslim martyr)
O Ba Ma means He Is With Us
some shiite clerics and scholars believe Obama is the manifestation of the third Imam's prophecy foretelling of a warrior who will come to weaken the Western world and make the way for its subjugation by Allah (Sharia law).
If you recall the elections, CNN heralded obama as "the messiah," I forget who else but probably Time magazine or some other publication on that level was calling him the chosen one and the prophet.
In conclusion, his mother wasn't old enough to grant him natural born citizenship, and his father is a citizen of Kenya, which at the time was a british protectorate. At best, he's a naturalized American citizen, and at worst he is a dual citizen of america and indonesia, where his adoptive father naturalized him so he could attend school in Nationalist Indonesia.
Never before in American history has the country known so little about its president
That's quite the list you have there. You guys can't seem to catch a break.. :/
On April 28 2011 01:18 Blix wrote: This makes me sad... where is the birth certificate of clinton or bush?
The had to give them before they were considered by the electoral college. Factually speaking Obama is the unique one in not needing to show his to be considered to be voted for by the electoral college.
No, factually speaking Obama also had to show his to be considered for the electoral college. Fictionally speaking, Obama was the unique one in not needing to show his to be considered.
Many people are confused by the fact that the literal title of the document is "Certificate of Live Birth" rather than "Birth Certificate". Hawaii literally does not issue "Birth Certificates," the "Certificate of Live Birth" is the title of their state's birth document... that's just the way their State handles things. Perhaps people who are confused by this should lobby for the Federal government to take over the States' role of issuing proof of their residents' birth, that way there could be one national form?
Can't tell if being intentionally ironic. Would be incredibly funny, though. The same people who believe they are the sole advocates of State's Rights suddenly find a snag in their beloved ideology and request that the Federal government take control to avoid it again.
On April 28 2011 01:18 Blix wrote: This makes me sad... where is the birth certificate of clinton or bush?
The had to give them before they were considered by the electoral college. Factually speaking Obama is the unique one in not needing to show his to be considered to be voted for by the electoral college.
No, factually speaking Obama also had to show his to be considered for the electoral college. Fictionally speaking, Obama was the unique one in not needing to show his to be considered.
Many people are confused by the fact that the literal title of the document is "Certificate of Live Birth" rather than "Birth Certificate". Hawaii literally does not issue "Birth Certificates," the "Certificate of Live Birth" is the title of their state's birth document... that's just the way their State handles things. Perhaps people who are confused by this should lobby for the Federal government to take over the States' role of issuing proof of their residents' birth, that way there could be one national form?
Bush and Clinton both showed their Birth certificate to the electoral college. Obama showed his certificate of live birth. The electoral college has nothing to do with states. Please learn what you're talking about. What you are saying about birth certificates and certificates of live birth is also incorrect. If the Birth Certifcate isn't actually created, explain how is has signitures that aren't present on the Certificate of live birth, along with information that isn't present on the Certificate of live birth. Are you saying that the release Birth Certificate is a fraud? http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2008/06/13/bobirthcertificate.jpg http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/o-birthcertlong.png
On April 28 2011 01:12 MangoTango wrote: Conspiracy theories: they can never be slain. Now the evidence will be too perfect and clearly faked. No amount of evidence can ever put a true believer to bed.
You rang?
Seriously though I think it's a good thing. This was getting way bigger than it should have. It's an incredibly stupid law to begin with, but let's put that aside. From what I understand you have to provide the same document to even be allowed to go in office? Were there seriously people who believed someone cheated with this? True believers heh.. Wow.
They released an image just like this 2 years ago, it was also a cetification of live birth and not a birth certificate.
its not like you can convince anyone on a starcraft forum.. if I wrote a 30 page essay it wouldn't matter
Obama is right when he says we have bigger issues to focus on.... like the engineered depression, the illegal creation of chimeras, the unification of the middle east against israel (and obama's illegal war on libya for which he must be immediately impeached), the takeover of genetically modified and dangerous species, evisceration of the rule of law in our country, the sidestepping of the constitution, the list goes on forevs
Barack Hussein Obama
Barack Hussein in arabic means with the blessing of Husayn (a muslim martyr)
O Ba Ma means He Is With Us
some shiite clerics and scholars believe Obama is the manifestation of the third Imam's prophecy foretelling of a warrior who will come to weaken the Western world and make the way for its subjugation by Allah (Sharia law).
If you recall the elections, CNN heralded obama as "the messiah," I forget who else but probably Time magazine or some other publication on that level was calling him the chosen one and the prophet.
In conclusion, his mother wasn't old enough to grant him natural born citizenship, and his father is a citizen of Kenya, which at the time was a british protectorate. At best, he's a naturalized American citizen, and at worst he is a dual citizen of america and indonesia, where his adoptive father naturalized him so he could attend school in Nationalist Indonesia.
Never before in American history has the country known so little about its president
That's quite the list you have there. You guys can't seem to catch a break.. :/
Clearly we need Obama to release a certificate proving he isn't an ancient reborn Muslim sorcerer creating chimeras. I think it's pretty suspicious that he hasn't done anything to quell these very serious concerns.
On April 28 2011 01:18 Blix wrote: This makes me sad... where is the birth certificate of clinton or bush?
The had to give them before they were considered by the electoral college. Factually speaking Obama is the unique one in not needing to show his to be considered to be voted for by the electoral college.
No, factually speaking Obama also had to show his to be considered for the electoral college. Fictionally speaking, Obama was the unique one in not needing to show his to be considered.
Many people are confused by the fact that the literal title of the document is "Certificate of Live Birth" rather than "Birth Certificate". Hawaii literally does not issue "Birth Certificates," the "Certificate of Live Birth" is the title of their state's birth document... that's just the way their State handles things. Perhaps people who are confused by this should lobby for the Federal government to take over the States' role of issuing proof of their residents' birth, that way there could be one national form?
Bush and Clinton both showed their Birth certificate to the electoral college. Obama showed his certificate of live birth. The electoral college has nothing to do with states. Please learn what you're talking about. What you are saying about birth certificates and certificates of live birth is also incorrect. If the Birth Certifcate isn't actually created, explain how is has signitures that aren't present on the Certificate of live birth, along with information that isn't present on the Certificate of live birth. Are you saying that the release Birth Certificate is a fraud? http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2008/06/13/bobirthcertificate.jpg http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/o-birthcertlong.png
Except that, as far as the State of Hawaii, and the Federal Government are concerned, a Certificate of Live Birth from Hawaii is equally as good as a Birth Certificate from Texas, or a Birth Certificate from Akansas.
Note the words 'prima facie' at the bottom of the Certificate of Live Birth.
They released an image just like this 2 years ago, it was also a cetification of live birth and not a birth certificate.
its not like you can convince anyone on a starcraft forum.. if I wrote a 30 page essay it wouldn't matter
Obama is right when he says we have bigger issues to focus on.... like the engineered depression, the illegal creation of chimeras, the unification of the middle east against israel (and obama's illegal war on libya for which he must be immediately impeached), the takeover of genetically modified and dangerous species, evisceration of the rule of law in our country, the sidestepping of the constitution, the list goes on forevs
Barack Hussein Obama
Barack Hussein in arabic means with the blessing of Husayn (a muslim martyr)
O Ba Ma means He Is With Us
some shiite clerics and scholars believe Obama is the manifestation of the third Imam's prophecy foretelling of a warrior who will come to weaken the Western world and make the way for its subjugation by Allah (Sharia law).
If you recall the elections, CNN heralded obama as "the messiah," I forget who else but probably Time magazine or some other publication on that level was calling him the chosen one and the prophet.
In conclusion, his mother wasn't old enough to grant him natural born citizenship, and his father is a citizen of Kenya, which at the time was a british protectorate. At best, he's a naturalized American citizen, and at worst he is a dual citizen of america and indonesia, where his adoptive father naturalized him so he could attend school in Nationalist Indonesia.
Never before in American history has the country known so little about its president
That's quite the list you have there. You guys can't seem to catch a break.. :/
Clearly we need Obama to release a certificate proving he isn't an ancient reborn Muslim sorcerer creating chimeras. I think it's pretty suspicious that he hasn't done anything to quell these very serious concerns.
I actually sent some people to investigate this and you would not believe what they found.
I have little doubt he is legit, but it's not like showing a document this late into his actual presidency would actually prove anything contrary as I'm sure the white house could fake something as simple as a birth certificate.
On April 28 2011 01:18 Blix wrote: This makes me sad... where is the birth certificate of clinton or bush?
The had to give them before they were considered by the electoral college. Factually speaking Obama is the unique one in not needing to show his to be considered to be voted for by the electoral college.
No, factually speaking Obama also had to show his to be considered for the electoral college. Fictionally speaking, Obama was the unique one in not needing to show his to be considered.
Many people are confused by the fact that the literal title of the document is "Certificate of Live Birth" rather than "Birth Certificate". Hawaii literally does not issue "Birth Certificates," the "Certificate of Live Birth" is the title of their state's birth document... that's just the way their State handles things. Perhaps people who are confused by this should lobby for the Federal government to take over the States' role of issuing proof of their residents' birth, that way there could be one national form?
Bush and Clinton both showed their Birth certificate to the electoral college. Obama showed his certificate of live birth. The electoral college has nothing to do with states. Please learn what you're talking about. What you are saying about birth certificates and certificates of live birth is also incorrect. If the Birth Certifcate isn't actually created, explain how is has signitures that aren't present on the Certificate of live birth, along with information that isn't present on the Certificate of live birth. Are you saying that the release Birth Certificate is a fraud? http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2008/06/13/bobirthcertificate.jpg http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/o-birthcertlong.png
Except that, as far as the State of Hawaii, and the Federal Government are concerned, a Certificate of Live Birth from Hawaii is equally as good as a Birth Certificate from Texas, or a Birth Certificate from Akansas.
Note the words 'prima facie' at the bottom of the Certificate of Live Birth.
I never said there was a difference in the legitimacy between the two documents. There is a difference between the information on them (which doesn't matter).
They released an image just like this 2 years ago, it was also a cetification of live birth and not a birth certificate.
its not like you can convince anyone on a starcraft forum.. if I wrote a 30 page essay it wouldn't matter
Obama is right when he says we have bigger issues to focus on.... like the engineered depression, the illegal creation of chimeras, the unification of the middle east against israel (and obama's illegal war on libya for which he must be immediately impeached), the takeover of genetically modified and dangerous species, evisceration of the rule of law in our country, the sidestepping of the constitution, the list goes on forevs
Barack Hussein Obama
Barack Hussein in arabic means with the blessing of Husayn (a muslim martyr)
O Ba Ma means He Is With Us
some shiite clerics and scholars believe Obama is the manifestation of the third Imam's prophecy foretelling of a warrior who will come to weaken the Western world and make the way for its subjugation by Allah (Sharia law).
If you recall the elections, CNN heralded obama as "the messiah," I forget who else but probably Time magazine or some other publication on that level was calling him the chosen one and the prophet.
In conclusion, his mother wasn't old enough to grant him natural born citizenship, and his father is a citizen of Kenya, which at the time was a british protectorate. At best, he's a naturalized American citizen, and at worst he is a dual citizen of america and indonesia, where his adoptive father naturalized him so he could attend school in Nationalist Indonesia.
Never before in American history has the country known so little about its president
That's quite the list you have there. You guys can't seem to catch a break.. :/
Clearly we need Obama to release a certificate proving he isn't an ancient reborn Muslim sorcerer creating chimeras. I think it's pretty suspicious that he hasn't done anything to quell these very serious concerns.
I actually sent some people to investigate this and you would not believe what they found.
He is actually a descendent of the prince of persia and can be seen doing parkour around the whitehouse and playing with the sands of time.
On April 28 2011 01:18 Blix wrote: This makes me sad... where is the birth certificate of clinton or bush?
The had to give them before they were considered by the electoral college. Factually speaking Obama is the unique one in not needing to show his to be considered to be voted for by the electoral college.
No, factually speaking Obama also had to show his to be considered for the electoral college. Fictionally speaking, Obama was the unique one in not needing to show his to be considered.
Many people are confused by the fact that the literal title of the document is "Certificate of Live Birth" rather than "Birth Certificate". Hawaii literally does not issue "Birth Certificates," the "Certificate of Live Birth" is the title of their state's birth document... that's just the way their State handles things. Perhaps people who are confused by this should lobby for the Federal government to take over the States' role of issuing proof of their residents' birth, that way there could be one national form?
Bush and Clinton both showed their Birth certificate to the electoral college. Obama showed his certificate of live birth. The electoral college has nothing to do with states. Please learn what you're talking about.
Slow down. I said the birth certificates were issued by the states, not that the states determine presidential eligibility.
That said, the electoral college certainly has a lot to do with states. Each state is allowed to choose its own electors according to state law, and the elections themselves are administered by the state (within the bounds of federal definitions of voting rights). That's why Maine and Nebraska are allowed to distribute their electoral votes differently than the rest of the nation. Colorado considered changing their method of electoral vote allocation in 2004, but the voters rejected that ballot initiative. Please, learn what YOU are talking about.
You just showed pictures demonstrating what I was talking about.
Neither of those says "Birth Certificate." They say "Certification of Live Birth" and "Certificate of Live Birth." One of the main birther criticisms has been that Obama has released his certification/certificate of live birth, but not his birth certificate, which they claim is different.
Finally we can put this behind us.... except we can't Fact remains that the only candidate to suffer such scrutiny about his origins was Obama. Why was Palin or Clinton not subjected to this? Or....McCain!
According to the birthers' interpretations of the contritution, McCain would not have counted as eligible for the presidency if he had won. Awesome.
It really saddens me that the politics of the most powerful nation on earth is dominated by such obviously stupid things. He released a birth certificate (the kind released by Hawai'i, which was good enough for the state department and every person who investigated, but not enough for everyone who refused to believe simply because....well, he looks forrin, doesn't he?). Hawai'i repeatedly stated he was born there. So why were people still riding this pathetic attempt to oust Obama? To believe he was born in Indonesia or Kenya required such a leap of faith, yet people were clinging to that in the vague hope they could say Obama was illegitimate and his office was void. Is it really that important to you that he should be foreign? If it was, maybe you really need to look at yourself and ask why.
Thankfully the vast majority of people on TL actually have brain cells to rub together and believed the facts from the start. Keep it up TL - ahead of over 40% of Republicans!
On April 28 2011 01:18 Blix wrote: This makes me sad... where is the birth certificate of clinton or bush?
The had to give them before they were considered by the electoral college. Factually speaking Obama is the unique one in not needing to show his to be considered to be voted for by the electoral college.
No, factually speaking Obama also had to show his to be considered for the electoral college. Fictionally speaking, Obama was the unique one in not needing to show his to be considered.
Many people are confused by the fact that the literal title of the document is "Certificate of Live Birth" rather than "Birth Certificate". Hawaii literally does not issue "Birth Certificates," the "Certificate of Live Birth" is the title of their state's birth document... that's just the way their State handles things. Perhaps people who are confused by this should lobby for the Federal government to take over the States' role of issuing proof of their residents' birth, that way there could be one national form?
Can't tell if being intentionally ironic. Would be incredibly funny, though. The same people who believe they are the sole advocates of State's Rights suddenly find a snag in their beloved ideology and request that the Federal government take control to avoid it again.
Then again, one of the goals of conservatives is to make government just small enough to fit it inside your bedroom. Apparantly you can only enjoy freedom in ways marked appropriate by social conservatives in the US, and this even goes for some of the more extreme libertarians (Rand Paul anyone :/)
For some reason in American politics, you really don't need a coherent ideological message. Goes for both sides of the isle equally, it's just more obvious on the republican side.
On April 28 2011 08:46 SnK-Arcbound wrote: Bush and Clinton both showed their Birth certificate to the electoral college. Obama showed his certificate of live birth.
I can't believe people are still making this argument. States have different titles on their birth certificates. Mine (Michigan) says "Certificate of Live Birth". Some say "Certificate of Birth Registration", or "Standard Certificate of Birth" or a dozen other variations. They're all birth certificates! It's like saying a plank of lumber isn't a wooden plank. I don't know how somebody could actually understand the English language and think this argument makes sense.
On April 28 2011 09:03 Sanctimonius wrote: Finally we can put this behind us.... except we can't Fact remains that the only candidate to suffer such scrutiny about his origins was Obama. Why was Palin or Clinton not subjected to this? Or....McCain!
Honestly? It's because he's black and we still have a lot of racism in America. People can disagree with me, but I've felt for awhile that he received all of this flak simply because of the color of his skin. There may be parts of the country with birthers who aren't racist and seriously think he wasn't born here and are fighting to preserve the constitution or whatever. But living here in the south literally every birther that I know is either openly racist or have come across as being at least slightly racist to me.
Very sad that he had to do this. Just like how politics run though. All God Damn smoke and mirrors. Hey look over where at something irrelevant while we just run amok.
This is so silly, he provided the certificate of live birth and idiotic people were still saying "but that's not a birth certificate!" But it still proved he was born in the United States which is what the constitution requires. Seriously, did birth certificates even exist when the constitution was written? Also, if he was issued a social security number (which every American is) when he was born, that proves his birth status as well.
Whats really ironic was just a few years ago there was talk among republicans of changing the constitution so Arnold Schwarzenegger could run for president. I agree with the law a person should be born in the U.S. but there are things other than a birth certificate that prove your status that are perfectly acceptable in my opinion. I wouldn't want a situation to arise where we have a president born in another country and then we end up in armed conflict with that nation. The foresight the constitution has impressive and perfectly fine the way it is.
"No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States. "
Doesn't say anything about a "birth certificate" does it?
On April 28 2011 09:03 Signet wrote: You just showed pictures demonstrating what I was talking about.
Neither of those says "Birth Certificate." They say "Certification of Live Birth" and "Certificate of Live Birth." One of the main birther criticisms has been that Obama has released his certification/certificate of live birth, but not his birth certificate, which they claim is different.
On April 28 2011 09:03 Signet wrote: Slow down. I said the birth certificates were issued by the states, not that the states determine presidential eligibility.
Let’s see what you actually said.
No, factually speaking Obama also had to show his [long form certificate of live birth, also knownw as a Birth Certificate] to be considered for the electoral college. Fictionally speaking, Obama was the unique one in not needing to show his to be considered.
Here you clearly said that Obama showed his Birth Certificate [aka long form certificate of live birth], not his Certificate of live Birth [aka short for certificate of live birth] to the electoral college, which is untrue. He showed his Birth Certificate to one media person, who vouches for having seen it, and showed his Certificate of live birth to the electoral college. You also now said “Birth Certificates were issued by the states,” even though you just said not all states issue Birth Certificates (note your anal first sencence I replied to). Your argument is based on saying that Hawaii doesn’t issue birth certificates, but certification of live birth, and then you try to say that birth certificates are issued by the states. You are entirely hypocritical just two paragraphs of your own post.
On April 28 2011 08:43 Suisen wrote: Can anyone explain to me why this even came up? Was there some sort of evidence to suggest he was born anywhere else?
Because people are racist. Hurr he is black, he must be an alien durrr!
"Birthers" lol. What group of fucking morons came up with this nickname? O wait... The same people who would vote to elect someone unqualified to run this country. People think that we are racist because we didn't vote for a half black person... when in all reality we just didnt want to vote for someone who was going to ruin the country. You kids can live in denial for the rest of your life, but the cold hard reality is this goon is a worse president than Jimmy Carter was.
On April 28 2011 09:48 sua1ty wrote: "Birthers" lol. What group of fucking morons came up with this nickname? O wait... The same people who would vote to elect someone unqualified to run this country. People think that we are racist because we didn't vote for a half black person... when in all reality we just didnt want to vote for someone who was going to ruin the country. You kids can live in denial for the rest of your life, but the cold hard reality is this goon is a worse president than Jimmy Carter was.
On April 28 2011 09:48 sua1ty wrote: "Birthers" lol. What group of fucking morons came up with this nickname? O wait... The same people who would vote to elect someone unqualified to run this country. People think that we are racist because we didn't vote for a half black person... when in all reality we just didnt want to vote for someone who was going to ruin the country. You kids can live in denial for the rest of your life, but the cold hard reality is this goon is a worse president than Jimmy Carter was.
Unqualified?
We elected Bush Jr...whose amazing resume includes being the Governer of Texas...and that's about it. If we're talking about Qualifications Obama has them in spades over several other presidents.
Even given what's happened I would still vote Obama over McCain simply because I think McCain would have wrecked the place even worse.
On April 28 2011 09:48 sua1ty wrote: "Birthers" lol. What group of fucking morons came up with this nickname? O wait... The same people who would vote to elect someone unqualified to run this country. People think that we are racist because we didn't vote for a half black person... when in all reality we just didnt want to vote for someone who was going to ruin the country. You kids can live in denial for the rest of your life, but the cold hard reality is this goon is a worse president than Jimmy Carter was.
Hmmm... You seem to believe that coming up with silly names is unique to "fucking morons". Let me ask you, do the doubters of Obama not commonly call him things like "Obammy", "Mr. Hussein", etc? Do these same folk not call anyone outside of the conservative end of the spectrum "lib-tards", "democracunts", etc?
Everyone name calls. Get over it. Your views are rather extreme, and I think it is you who will look back in history one day and realize that health care overhaul and a step back from neo-conservatism were actually a step in the right direction. No, that might require long term thoughtfulness, so I won't raise my expectations too high...
It must suck to be Obama sometimes. Republican birthers demanding that you prove your citizenship and demand to see your long birth certificate that no other president has even been questioned about, and other Republicans criticizing you and saying that addressing the issue is wasting time and taking time away from addressing more important issues.
If I were Obama, I would seriously wish I could put all these people in the same room and realize that what they're all shouting should be addressed at each other and not myself.
On April 28 2011 09:48 sua1ty wrote: "Birthers" lol. What group of fucking morons came up with this nickname? O wait... The same people who would vote to elect someone unqualified to run this country. People think that we are racist because we didn't vote for a half black person... when in all reality we just didnt want to vote for someone who was going to ruin the country. You kids can live in denial for the rest of your life, but the cold hard reality is this goon is a worse president than Jimmy Carter was.
Back your statements up or don't post? How is Obama worse than Jimmy Carter again? What's even the criteria for comparing presidencies? How is Obama unqualified to run the country when compared to a man who went back on his own words and continue to back pedal on the very things he said not a few months earlier (McCain). I thought people didn't like flip floppers? He picked Sarah Palin out of all the people in the world to be his VP. Come on now.
We elected Bush Jr...whose amazing resume includes being the Governer of Texas...and that's about it. If we're talking about Qualifications Obama has them in spades over several other presidents.
Except the only person that Obama has in spades are you fucking idiots who think that people didnt vote for him "because hes black."
O and noone (myself included) said that Bush was amazing, but more cold hard facts for you kids is that Bush was more qualified than Obama. l2r.
On April 28 2011 09:53 Jayme wrote: Even given what's happened I would still vote Obama over McCain simply because I think McCain would have wrecked the place even worse.
On April 28 2011 09:48 sua1ty wrote: "Birthers" lol. What group of fucking morons came up with this nickname? O wait... The same people who would vote to elect someone unqualified to run this country. People think that we are racist because we didn't vote for a half black person... when in all reality we just didnt want to vote for someone who was going to ruin the country. You kids can live in denial for the rest of your life, but the cold hard reality is this goon is a worse president than Jimmy Carter was.
Back your statements up or don't post? How is Obama worse than Jimmy Carter again? What's even the criteria for comparing presidencies? How is Obama unqualified to run the country when compared to a man who went back on his own words and continue to back pedal on the very things he said not a few months earlier (McCain). I thought people didn't like flip floppers? He picked Sarah Palin out of all the people in the world to be his VP. Come on now.
To be fair Joe Biden is just as bad as Sarah Palin. Just sayin'.
On April 28 2011 09:56 Keone wrote: It must suck to be Obama sometimes. Republican birthers demanding that you prove your citizenship and demand to see your long birth certificate that no other president has even been questioned about, and other Republicans criticizing you and saying that addressing the issue is wasting time and taking time away from addressing more important issues.
If I were Obama, I would seriously wish I could put all these people in the same room and realize that what they're all shouting should be addressed at each other and not myself.
Nah, they know exactly what they're doing, haven't you ever had an argument with someone, who in an inferior logical position resorts to min/max attacks to obfuscate their bad position? Probably one of the most common and outright disingenuous tactics people employ to try and escape your crushing grip of reason.
I agree it's really frustrating to deal with though, isn't there a term for this tactic? I can't remember what it's called
Falldownmarigold: None of those nicknames are used not even in the south (I live in Jacksonville Florida, it doesn't get much more south). And your opinions on health care and conservatism are comical.
Chaoser: I can post anytime I want last time I checked and if you need me to back up that post your living under a rock. Bash McCain and Palin all you want, but they haven't ruined anything. And as a matter of fact its funny you should talk about flip-floppers and associate it with McCain, since Obama is the king of that whitty title.
On April 28 2011 09:48 sua1ty wrote: "Birthers" lol. What group of fucking morons came up with this nickname? O wait... The same people who would vote to elect someone unqualified to run this country. People think that we are racist because we didn't vote for a half black person... when in all reality we just didnt want to vote for someone who was going to ruin the country. You kids can live in denial for the rest of your life, but the cold hard reality is this goon is a worse president than Jimmy Carter was.
Back your statements up or don't post? How is Obama worse than Jimmy Carter again? What's even the criteria for comparing presidencies? How is Obama unqualified to run the country when compared to a man who went back on his own words and continue to back pedal on the very things he said not a few months earlier (McCain). I thought people didn't like flip floppers? He picked Sarah Palin out of all the people in the world to be his VP. Come on now.
To be fair Joe Biden is just as bad as Sarah Palin. Just sayin'.
We elected Bush Jr...whose amazing resume includes being the Governer of Texas...and that's about it. If we're talking about Qualifications Obama has them in spades over several other presidents.
Except the only person that Obama has in spades are you fucking idiots who think that people didnt vote for him "because hes black."
O and noone (myself included) said that Bush was amazing, but more cold hard facts for you kids is that Bush was more qualified than Obama. l2r.
On April 28 2011 09:53 Jayme wrote: Even given what's happened I would still vote Obama over McCain simply because I think McCain would have wrecked the place even worse.
I bet you would, because denial is comforting.
Objectively speaking, how would McCain be any better? Your points are ridiculous, and it's ironic because your position is just as foolish/disingenuous as those that you claim think, "Obama no-voters don't like blacks". Your statements are boring, almost as if you are parroting some Fox news agenda or something.
Give me one objective fact about McCain that would without a doubt make him run the country "better".
You're lying if you're trying to say "Libtard" is not a commonly used term to describe those outside of a certain conservative realm of beliefs. Stop it.
Furthermore, you think my opinions on health care are comical? Can you even explain to me what the individual mandate is, and what problem it addresses within our health care system? Do you even understand the debate? Do you realize that most economists are in agreement with regard to the cause of the drastic increase and future of healthcare expenditures?
On April 28 2011 10:08 Body_Shield wrote: This would be such a troll fest if a most of the people posting in this thread didn't mean what they type.....but they do.
Don't even have to be born in the United States, just a citizen of the US and lived in the country for 14 years. + Show Spoiler +
On April 28 2011 10:18 Body_Shield wrote: Well I look like an idiot now.
Yes, I misread it.
Your first point was correct though, Obama's birth certificate (or some version of it at least) has been available for the past 3 years yet still people demand he produces "further evidence".
We elected Bush Jr...whose amazing resume includes being the Governer of Texas...and that's about it. If we're talking about Qualifications Obama has them in spades over several other presidents.
Except the only person that Obama has in spades are you fucking idiots who think that people didnt vote for him "because hes black."
O and noone (myself included) said that Bush was amazing, but more cold hard facts for you kids is that Bush was more qualified than Obama. l2r.
On April 28 2011 09:53 Jayme wrote: Even given what's happened I would still vote Obama over McCain simply because I think McCain would have wrecked the place even worse.
I bet you would, because denial is comforting.
I'm still waiting for those facts you claim to have.
Falldownmarigold: I have never heard of "Libtard" your making that shit up, so go ahead and stop lying to us, and as a matter of fact: http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/11/news/economy/obama_health_plan_no_bargain.fortune/ the health plan is no bargain. "The lines will grow. And so will the spending, and the taxes. And that's what Obama isn't telling you."
azn_dude1: "Hey guys. It doesn't matter where he was born. His mom was American. He can be president. Now shut up birthers." ...this is not a surprising comment in the least. Especially since someone, what 2 posts before this? posted the actual requirements... Most people who use the word "Birthers" must have no idea to begin with...
Ok, so I'm done with you trolls, now keep on believing that Obama is doing... anything right, but I'm going to go watch the NASL now.
On April 28 2011 09:03 Signet wrote: You just showed pictures demonstrating what I was talking about.
Neither of those says "Birth Certificate." They say "Certification of Live Birth" and "Certificate of Live Birth." One of the main birther criticisms has been that Obama has released his certification/certificate of live birth, but not his birth certificate, which they claim is different.
Are you trolling? I'm repeating the retarded semantics argument that birthers make. I don't actually believe the argument. I know the form is legitimate. The short form is what Hawaii is, by law, supposed to issue as proof that the citizen was born in their state. The long form is what they used to give out and, in this case, what Obama specially requested.
I've even seen birthers saying that this new certificate isn't legitimate or isn't quite what they're asking for, because it wasn't the "real" birth certificate given out by the hospital. (I assume now they mean the "record of live birth".) It's an endless game of semantics with them; I'm simply addressing the game they're playing.
On April 28 2011 09:03 Signet wrote: Slow down. I said the birth certificates were issued by the states, not that the states determine presidential eligibility.
No, factually speaking Obama also had to show his [long form certificate of live birth, also knownw as a Birth Certificate] to be considered for the electoral college. Fictionally speaking, Obama was the unique one in not needing to show his to be considered.
Here you clearly said that Obama showed his Birth Certificate [aka long form certificate of live birth], not his Certificate of live Birth [aka short for certificate of live birth] to the electoral college, which is untrue. He showed his Birth Certificate to one media person, who vouches for having seen it, and showed his Certificate of live birth to the electoral college. You also now said “Birth Certificates were issued by the states,” even though you just said not all states issue Birth Certificates (note your anal first sencence I replied to). Your argument is based on saying that Hawaii doesn’t issue birth certificates, but certification of live birth, and then you try to say that birth certificates are issued by the states. You are entirely hypocritical just two paragraphs of your own post.
No, that's not what I was arguing. My argument was that Hawaii doesn’t issue documents with the literal title "birth certificates" but rather "certification of live birth" and "certificate of live birth", and birthers won't accept either of the latter two as legitimate. Even now I'm arguing with one of my Tea Party friends about whether this new certificate is really a birth certificate, or if it has to be the original hand-written form made at the hospital on the day he was born. (I can only wonder what the next excuse would be if he produced that.) So yes, the argument is f*cking ridiculous, but that's not my fault.
When I say that birth certificates are issued by the states, I'm using the (non-quoted) term as a catch all for whatever the state calls the form that is used as evidence that a person was born there. Whether they give it the title "Birth Certificate" or "Certificate of Live Birth" or whatever, I don't care. I guess some people do, but not me.
But at this point it's clear that you aren't interested in discussing the issue, but rather making strawman attacks at some deliberate misinterpretation of my argument (I assume deliberate, because I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that your IQ is greater than 3).
Also, ffs, learn the definition of "hypocritical." Even if your attempted argument was based on a correct interpretation of my argument, it wouldn't show hypocrisy. I think you are trying to show that my argument has an invalid form - that it is self-defeating. But this is not a form of hypocrisy, if anything it would be poor debate skills which isn't really a character issue. It would be hypocritical if, for example, I demanded that Obama show his long form birth certificate to the electoral college, then I ran for president and refused to show mine. If I argued that electoral college determined Obama's eligibility and they didn't, or if I argued that Obama was born in Hawaii and he wasn't, I would be "wrong" or "mistaken." If you are not yet fluent in English (this is an international board, and we have many others who have immigrated to the USA), I don't mean to be harsh about this.
its funny, does anyone remember when arnold was elected governor there were republicans backing the idea of allowing foreigners the ability to be president.
On April 28 2011 10:52 redviper wrote: Do you really have a BA? Community college with a D average perhaps, otherwise your professors should be hanging themselves.
How did you know I had a BA? and last time I checked the University of North Florida was not a D average Community College.
Again, can anyone explain what the evidence is that Obama was born somewhere else? Where was he born? Kenya?
Again, how did this come up with Obama and not with Clinton or Bush. They never had to show their birth certificate. Why the change of burden of proof?
At first I thought i had you confused with Coraz and was about to apologize when I realized you are a new account that started posting after Coraz stopped posting. Same writing style, same paranoia, etc etc.
On April 28 2011 11:16 Suisen wrote: Again, can anyone explain what the evidence is that Obama was born somewhere else? Where was he born? Kenya?
Again, how did this come up with Obama and not with Clinton or Bush. They never had to show their birth certificate. Why the change of burden of proof?
It's because he's black and his father is not American-born.
this is such a stupid rumor that ever started sigh.....at least with this, people can settle down. Still can not believe so many people were raging about this. :/
It would be nice if debates moved onto things that actually mattered, but early signs are this is not enough for a lot of people out there to prove he was born in the US. Regardless of the enormous leaps of faith you would need to believe he wasn't born in the US, there are those out there still clinging to that hope. Again, I think they have to ask themselves why it is so important that Obama be ineligible for the Presidency but they never thought to question if all those other guys who were President were acceptable.
Debates about how well or badly Obama is doing, whether McCain would have done worse, aren't actually what this thread is about. If you want to dip into that particular flame war, start a new thread.
i thought we had come all this way. i thought we made progress in this kind of shit. like you would think we would be decent at tolerating differences but wow.
On April 28 2011 12:08 Treemonkeys wrote: Pretty damn stupid it went this far, does the guy have no childhood friends? A elementary school year book? Not that I even want to know.
Well certain members of the opposition saw nothing wrong with just claiming none of his so called classmates remember him. Without evidence. Because, hey, who needs facts when you can lie and then run away to let the lie take form as gospel. Oldest trick in the book.
On April 28 2011 12:14 shawster wrote: i'm dissapointed in society
i thought we had come all this way. i thought we made progress in this kind of shit. like you would think we would be decent at tolerating differences but wow.
Don't all of us slaves have to show our birth certificates to get a passport? Driver's license? In fact, they even want circumcision records for a passport now.
Is it really that much of an outrage for the President of the United States to produce a birth certificate? Really?
On April 28 2011 12:41 fight_or_flight wrote: Is it really that much of an outrage for the President of the United States to produce a birth certificate? Really?
He produced one 3 years ago during the campaign. The same sort of birth certificate you'd use to get a passport or for any other legal purpose. But wingers just stuck their fingers in their ears and "la, la, la, he's a Kenyan muslim soshulist usurper!!!"
Essentially, to those asking why release it now just to acknowledge the idiots, it all boils down to politics. If he can help to paint right wingers as idiots, it will help him when he runs for reelection in 17 months.
On April 28 2011 12:14 shawster wrote: i'm dissapointed in society
i thought we had come all this way. i thought we made progress in this kind of shit. like you would think we would be decent at tolerating differences but wow.
Don't all of us slaves have to show our birth certificates to get a passport? Driver's license? In fact, they even want circumcision records for a passport now.
Is it really that much of an outrage for the President of the United States to produce a birth certificate? Really?
it's ridiculous that people think it's a conspiracy and that he actually wasn't born in the USA
On April 28 2011 13:24 PointyBagels wrote: Essentially, to those asking why release it now just to acknowledge the idiots, it all boils down to politics. If he can help to paint right wingers as idiots, it will help him when he runs for reelection in 17 months.
I agree, but he also screwed this up. Should have waited until after Trump makes some big announcement about what he's found / hasn't found in Hawaii, then say "oh, so you spend millions to have shady detectives snoop around people's private records... trying to find this?" (not that Obama should say much about privacy after refusing to repeal Patriot Act for 2 years, and the new TSA body scanners. But that would be politics as usual.)
The bottom line is that the people who believe that Obama isn't an American, or that he didnt write his own book, or that he only got into Columbia or Harvard by trickery or Affirmative action are just Racist cowards point blank.
They don't like the idea that they are bigots so they hide behind the nonsensical statements like "I take his word for it, BUT... (insert crazy here)
It is so infuriating for non-white Americans when they hear/see stuff like Trump/Hannity/Rush are putting out there.
It just confirms the suspicion that it doesn't matter what someone of color does e.g. Come out of a single parent home go to college, continue one's education at some of the nations top Universities Columbia and Harvard, Graduate in the top %'s of one's classes also be the president of the Harvard Law review. Then instead of going into some commercial application of one's education one chooses to go into some of the most desperate communities in America and try to help them help themselves. Then be a professor of constitutional law at Harvard. Also write a book about your story. Become a U.S. Senator. then go on to win a historical election to become the President of the United States.... And still.... STILL some wealthy white (or orange in Trumps case) will question ones legitimacy as a Student, an Author, a Professor, the President, and most disgustingly his allegiance and citizenship to and of the United States of America
As pathetic as that is, it would be of little consequence if SOOO many people didn't buy into it. For the apologists that have and will make the argument "There are SOME crazy people everywhere/ on both sides/ or that there are legitimate concerns regarding the aforementioned nonsense" It's simply not the same
It's not a "few crazies "It's roughly 50% of the republican party and just about 25% of The population meaning over 75,000,000 people believe that crap
of those roughly 75,000,000 people the vast majority must be Racists, Bigots, Idiots or some combination there of. Most of which are just to cowardly to admit it. Post Racial my @$$
Glad to see the TL community is not as gullible at least about 90% of us
Please everyone do your part to shut these RL trolls down whenever possible whether they are your friends, family, or just some stranger... Don't let people get away with such regrettable behavior
My dad still believes that the document is fake. Well he's been going on about this stuff for months, and since they released this document I kind of want to shut him up.
I disproved the layers thing to him already. Now he is using the race being African, the missing seal, and saying that it isn't the right color for a birth certificate as his argument. I know that it isn't fake myself, but could someone cite some sources that disprove this? I really want to shut my dad up lol.
The thing is a fake. It was computer generated. Here's a video showing Adobe Illustrator saying so. It automatically tells you where the differentiating parts are.
If you just look at things objectively without caring about anything else the truth will show itself.
He shouldve waited longer before releasing it. No one who seriouly believed this was gonna vote for him anyway or change their opinion of him...or has an iq over 50 for that matter. The repubs wouldve just continued to look like idiots for pushing the issue.
My dad still believes that the document is fake. Well he's been going on about this stuff for months, and since they released this document I kind of want to shut him up.
I disproved the layers thing to him already. Now he is using the race being African, the missing seal, and saying that it isn't the right color for a birth certificate as his argument. I know that it isn't fake myself, but could someone cite some sources that disprove this? I really want to shut my dad up lol.
Not much on the certificate but might help out
n order to maintain the belief that Obama is NOT an American citizen here are some other things YOU MUST BELIEVE
That the CIA is secretly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President.....
That the FBI is secretly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President.....
That the NSA is secretly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President.....
That the Homeland Security Agency is secretly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That the Director of National Intelligence is secretly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That the Entirety of enlisted US military Men and Women are secretly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That all the State of Hawaii officials relevant are secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That Joe Scarborough is secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That Michelle Malkin is secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That David Horowitz is secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That Michael Medved is secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That John Avlon is secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That Ed Morrissey is secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That Andrew Walden is secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
And that John Hawkins who said
"Barack Obama is a shameless liar" But ""Barack Obama was born in Hawaii. Granted, not everyone on the Right agrees with this assessment, but nevertheless, it's so." Hawkins concluded that the "evidence is as definitive as it gets. Obama has a legitimate birth certificate on file, he released a copy of it to the public, and there is a news clipping that confirms he was born in Hawaii in 1961."
is also secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
And everyone else's job it is to make sure the constitution is upheld
So if your dad thinks all those people have been tricked, coerced, or are secretly subverting The Constitution in order to help Obama fake his citizenry I don't think there is any hope for him
Every single one of you who help to enforce this Democratic versus Republican debate are the problem with this country. Blanket statements that generalize the followers of either demographic are really hurting this country. It makes unimportant topics like religion and where you were born come to the forefront of debates, and feeds into the cyclical regurgitation of logical fallacies, ad-hominem attacks and fear-mongering in order to prod the american people into choosing sides and fighting with each-other on topics that neither side has all the information to while at the same time spreading misinformation about topics that need to be discussed.
If you really want to get a message across to your fellow Americans you're better off shutting your mouth entirely, and instead take into action the ideals and values you know to be good. Leadership begins with the people working together to solve our problems, not debating over them until the become so tired and worn out that neither side knows which to believe without just attaching themselves to the opinions of their peers.
On April 28 2011 14:29 HowitZer wrote: The thing is a fake. It was computer generated. Here's a video showing Adobe Illustrator saying so. It automatically tells you where the differentiating parts are.
If you just look at things objectively without caring about anything else the truth will show itself.
Do you have any idea how scanners, computer graphics, or .pdf format works?
Here's a source explaining why these things happen with scanned .pdf files. It's a conservative source since I know if I linked anything else they'd also undoubtedly be part of the grand conspiracy to you:
Really though, it doesn't even take knowledge about scanners/graphics/pdf to get this. If the whole thing's a conspiracy, do you really believe they don't know how to fucking flatten an image file? Please give your shadowy puppetmasters more credit than that.
On April 28 2011 14:11 GreenHorizons wrote: The bottom line is that the people who believe that Obama isn't an American, or that he didnt write his own book, or that he only got into Columbia or Harvard by trickery or Affirmative action are just Racist cowards point blank.
They don't like the idea that they are bigots so they hide behind the nonsensical statements like "I take his word for it, BUT... (insert crazy here)
It is so infuriating for non-white Americans when they hear/see stuff like Trump/Hannity/Rush are putting out there.
It just confirms the suspicion that it doesn't matter what someone of color does e.g. Come out of a single parent home go to college, continue one's education at some of the nations top Universities Columbia and Harvard, Graduate in the top %'s of one's classes also be the president of the Harvard Law review. Then instead of going into some commercial application of one's education one chooses to go into some of the most desperate communities in America and try to help them help themselves. Then be a professor of constitutional law at Harvard. Also write a book about your story. Become a U.S. Senator. then go on to win a historical election to become the President of the United States.... And still.... STILL some wealthy white (or orange in Trumps case) will question ones legitimacy as a Student, an Author, a Professor, the President, and most disgustingly his allegiance and citizenship to and of the United States of America
As pathetic as that is, it would be of little consequence if SOOO many people didn't buy into it. For the apologists that have and will make the argument "There are SOME crazy people everywhere/ on both sides/ or that there are legitimate concerns regarding the aforementioned nonsense" It's simply not the same
It's not a "few crazies "It's roughly 50% of the republican party and just about 25% of The population meaning over 75,000,000 people believe that crap
of those roughly 75,000,000 people the vast majority must be Racists, Bigots, Idiots or some combination there of. Most of which are just to cowardly to admit it. Post Racial my @$$
Glad to see the TL community is not as gullible at least about 90% of us
Please everyone do your part to shut these RL trolls down whenever possible whether they are your friends, family, or just some stranger... Don't let people get away with such regrettable behavior
TY
I bet it feels good to blow a bunch of that pent up hot air out of your system.
can't believe the immaturity of american politics.
in fact, the only reason why american politicians can keep getting away with this is because the american people are so stupid and immature when it comes to informed voting.
in what other country would there be people who think obama is a
a) musilm b) terrorist c) socialist dictator d) illegal e) scammer
and WTF is up with donald trump? gawd do i see no hope for the united states of america. you guys think bush was bad? if donald trump becomes prez, the bush era will be seen as the golden ages....
On April 28 2011 14:29 HowitZer wrote: The thing is a fake. It was computer generated. Here's a video showing Adobe Illustrator saying so. It automatically tells you where the differentiating parts are.
If you just look at things objectively without caring about anything else the truth will show itself.
Its very sad to see that this is your only form of argument regarding Obama's nationality. I honestly would expect a bit more from how much the republicans are blowing this out of proportion. Such a sad day when an issue this small can divide a nation...
My dad still believes that the document is fake. Well he's been going on about this stuff for months, and since they released this document I kind of want to shut him up.
I disproved the layers thing to him already. Now he is using the race being African, the missing seal, and saying that it isn't the right color for a birth certificate as his argument. I know that it isn't fake myself, but could someone cite some sources that disprove this? I really want to shut my dad up lol.
Not much on the certificate but might help out
n order to maintain the belief that Obama is NOT an American citizen here are some other things YOU MUST BELIEVE
That the CIA is secretly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President.....
That the FBI is secretly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President.....
That the NSA is secretly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President.....
That the Homeland Security Agency is secretly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That the Director of National Intelligence is secretly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That the Entirety of enlisted US military Men and Women are secretly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That all the State of Hawaii officials relevant are secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That Joe Scarborough is secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That Michelle Malkin is secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That David Horowitz is secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That Michael Medved is secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That John Avlon is secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That Ed Morrissey is secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That Andrew Walden is secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
And that John Hawkins who said
"Barack Obama is a shameless liar" But ""Barack Obama was born in Hawaii. Granted, not everyone on the Right agrees with this assessment, but nevertheless, it's so." Hawkins concluded that the "evidence is as definitive as it gets. Obama has a legitimate birth certificate on file, he released a copy of it to the public, and there is a news clipping that confirms he was born in Hawaii in 1961."
is also secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
And everyone else's job it is to make sure the constitution is upheld
So if your dad thinks all those people have been tricked, coerced, or are secretly subverting The Constitution in order to help Obama fake his citizenry I don't think there is any hope for him
My dad still believes that the document is fake. Well he's been going on about this stuff for months, and since they released this document I kind of want to shut him up.
I disproved the layers thing to him already. Now he is using the race being African, the missing seal, and saying that it isn't the right color for a birth certificate as his argument. I know that it isn't fake myself, but could someone cite some sources that disprove this? I really want to shut my dad up lol.
Not much on the certificate but might help out
n order to maintain the belief that Obama is NOT an American citizen here are some other things YOU MUST BELIEVE
That the CIA is secretly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President.....
That the FBI is secretly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President.....
That the NSA is secretly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President.....
That the Homeland Security Agency is secretly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That the Director of National Intelligence is secretly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That the Entirety of enlisted US military Men and Women are secretly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That all the State of Hawaii officials relevant are secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That Joe Scarborough is secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That Michelle Malkin is secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That David Horowitz is secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That Michael Medved is secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That John Avlon is secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That Ed Morrissey is secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
That Andrew Walden is secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
And that John Hawkins who said
"Barack Obama is a shameless liar" But ""Barack Obama was born in Hawaii. Granted, not everyone on the Right agrees with this assessment, but nevertheless, it's so." Hawkins concluded that the "evidence is as definitive as it gets. Obama has a legitimate birth certificate on file, he released a copy of it to the public, and there is a news clipping that confirms he was born in Hawaii in 1961."
is also secretly/publicly covering up that Obama is a foreigner who illegally became President
And everyone else's job it is to make sure the constitution is upheld
So if your dad thinks all those people have been tricked, coerced, or are secretly subverting The Constitution in order to help Obama fake his citizenry I don't think there is any hope for him
2nd my recent posts have been LoOOOOoooonG and I am sorry I just didn't think i could make my point in shorter form
ya, except my dad would believe all of that X_X
if you're dad is THAT much against accepting evidence and reason, i would suggest just letting the issue slide by, he doesn't sound like someone who is fun to debate with, and arguing with him might just end badly?
This thread will go on forever. We will beat this horse black and blue even after it's decomposing. You would think on the internet of all places people would have the common sense to not feed the trolls, but I guess you put a troll on television and somehow that gives his arguments enough legitimacy to debate for hours.
Or maybe people just love fighting an easy battle, love looking down on others with moral superiority, love to be self-righteous and shocked and appalled at people dumber than they are. Yeah, we get it, the issue is absurd and wrong. Some people won't agree, and they are trolls. There is no point in debating them except to stroke your own ego.
This issue is so simple really. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. If a group of people don't like someone, they are going to accept any damaging rumors, whether they have evidence or conviction about it or not. It's really not that shocking to be quite honest. In politics people have been vilified as racist, fascist, socialist, uneducated, over-educated, murderers, synonymous with hitler, George Bush doesn't like black people, I could go on all day. So now someone gets accused of being born in a country other than the one he claims. My god! How could we live in such a world!
And Obama makes an announcement to gain easy political points and suddenly he was a victim of vicious and hateful racists who forced him to go to these lengths to finally "get to the important matters." People are less cynical than I thought...
So when you are all done arguing over his birth certificate, we can actually debate about something that's actually important....like whether his eyebrows are real or not.
It’s only an extreme portion of the population that doesn’t believe Obama was born in the U.S., and this question isn’t really relevant to him. It does show, however, how far removed from reality the so called “birthers” (the name given to people who question Obama’s birth), and supporters like Donald Trump, are.
We all know that the Constitution is subject to interpretation, and has been since it's conception. Let's be honest about that at least.
On April 28 2011 14:57 Uncultured wrote: Keep blanket insulting the american people, Hmmmm. It makes you look very intelligent.
Do birthers not realize that Obama had to cement his candidacy before being nominated by the DNC? Did they not watch the primaries?
Two sides aren't always equal, and prancing around acting superior doesn't help your cause one bit.
... This is the embodiment of exactly what I said was wrong with peoples mindset in my previous post. I stated nothing about either side of the debate. I called someone out who was insulting all american people. And you call me a birther and bring up an argument that has literally no relation to anything I was talking about. That's literally hilarious.
On April 28 2011 12:14 shawster wrote: i'm dissapointed in society
i thought we had come all this way. i thought we made progress in this kind of shit. like you would think we would be decent at tolerating differences but wow.
Don't all of us slaves have to show our birth certificates to get a passport? Driver's license?
Yeah, Obama had to do that too. The passport agencies accept the COLB as proof of birth.
On April 28 2011 12:41 fight_or_flight wrote: In fact, they even want circumcision records for a passport now.
WTF? This is totally false. I got a passport last week and all I had to do was send in my proof of citizenship.
On April 28 2011 12:41 fight_or_flight wrote: Is it really that much of an outrage for the President of the United States to produce a birth certificate? Really?
Hawaii doesn't release those "long-form" certificates. This was a special case that probably would never have happened if the President wasn't the one asking. Besides, he DID produce a birth certificate (the COLB is a documentation of birth and natural citizenship) so I don't understand where this argument comes from.
Honestly, this entire issue is retarded. If anyone else, for example, was born in Hawaii and they asked the government for their long-form birth certificate, they'd be denied. They'd get the COLB instead, which is good enough for a passport, driver's license, etc.
On April 28 2011 14:57 Uncultured wrote: Keep blanket insulting the american people, Hmmmm. It makes you look very intelligent.
Do birthers not realize that Obama had to cement his candidacy before being nominated by the DNC? Did they not watch the primaries?
Two sides aren't always equal, and prancing around acting superior doesn't help your cause one bit.
... This is the embodiment of exactly what I said was wrong with peoples mindset in my previous post. I stated nothing about either side of the debate. I called someone out who was insulting all american people. And you call me a birther and bring up an argument that has literally no relation to anything I was talking about. That's literally hilarious.
WTF did I write? I said birthers, not that you are a birther. Yes, you were acting superior with your sarcasm.
On April 23 2011 08:20 frontline wrote: Typical BS United States :/
fixed, for accuracy
On April 23 2011 08:43 Hypemeup wrote: USA #1! USA #1! USA #1!
This is just sad
On April 23 2011 09:12 Project Psycho wrote: well theres nothing like the land of the free, eh?
On April 23 2011 09:30 Roggay wrote: Wow, the law is pretty fucked up in the US. Well, not that I didnt knew that but still. It seems that the school system is a shame to begin with in the US. Poor people > bad schools, rich people > good schools, caught wanting your son a better school and you are not rich > 20years jail. Way to go america.
On April 23 2011 10:37 HansMoleman wrote: The land of the free....
On April 23 2011 12:05 chaosfreak11 wrote: Even china has better laws
On April 23 2011 21:41 Roeder wrote:
On April 23 2011 21:24 BlackFlag wrote: Europe isn't that much better.
Yes. Yes it is.
Actually it's much better.
On April 24 2011 02:14 Coraz wrote: only a wicked society goes after homeless people and widows and kicks them while they are down
On April 24 2011 05:53 ZessiM wrote: The lack of empathy for the poor in the United States is staggering.
This is the TL I know and love. Absurd generalizations that have nothing at all to do with the actual article and blanket criticism of an entire country. Glad to know bigotry and prejudice are as rampant in other nations as they are here. But I wish we could stop the double standard... if it was another particular country being bashed like this I'm sure we'd see warnings and temp-bans left and right.
On April 28 2011 15:42 jdseemoreglass wrote:This is the TL I know and love. Absurd generalizations that have nothing at all to do with the actual article and blanket criticism of an entire country. Glad to know bigotry and prejudice are as rampant in other nations as they are here. But I wish we could stop the double standard... if it was another particular country being bashed like this I'm sure we'd see warnings and temp-bans left and right.
The reason you see so many of those comments is because there are so many more topics on the U.S. than any other country owing to the fact that there are so many more posters from the United States. There is no double standard.
On April 23 2011 08:20 frontline wrote: Typical BS United States :/
fixed, for accuracy
On April 23 2011 08:43 Hypemeup wrote: USA #1! USA #1! USA #1!
This is just sad
On April 23 2011 09:12 Project Psycho wrote: well theres nothing like the land of the free, eh?
On April 23 2011 09:30 Roggay wrote: Wow, the law is pretty fucked up in the US. Well, not that I didnt knew that but still. It seems that the school system is a shame to begin with in the US. Poor people > bad schools, rich people > good schools, caught wanting your son a better school and you are not rich > 20years jail. Way to go america.
On April 23 2011 10:37 HansMoleman wrote: The land of the free....
On April 23 2011 12:05 chaosfreak11 wrote: Even china has better laws
On April 23 2011 21:41 Roeder wrote:
On April 23 2011 21:24 BlackFlag wrote: Europe isn't that much better.
Yes. Yes it is.
Actually it's much better.
On April 24 2011 02:14 Coraz wrote: only a wicked society goes after homeless people and widows and kicks them while they are down
On April 24 2011 05:53 ZessiM wrote: The lack of empathy for the poor in the United States is staggering.
This is the TL I know and love. Absurd generalizations that have nothing at all to do with the actual article and blanket criticism of an entire country. Glad to know bigotry and prejudice are as rampant in other nations as they are here. But I wish we could stop the double standard... if it was another particular country being bashed like this I'm sure we'd see warnings and temp-bans left and right.
as sad as generalisations is, it's the only developed country which has such a selfish culture and lack of solidarity in the culture. BUT THATS OFFTOPIC
I can see why americans, nationalistic as most of them are, would want to know if their president was American born. What I dont get is, that this would practically be a prevention of someone moving from England fx and making a political career after living their whole life in America but getting born in England? I wonder if it's simply nationalistic or even simplier that some republicans are still as racistic.
I can't believe it had to come to this. And it's unbelievable how Trump spun it with a smug response about how he's honored to get rid of the issue. These guys are nutjobs... as if the research wasn't done ahead of time -.-'
On April 23 2011 08:20 frontline wrote: Typical BS United States :/
fixed, for accuracy
On April 23 2011 08:43 Hypemeup wrote: USA #1! USA #1! USA #1!
This is just sad
On April 23 2011 09:12 Project Psycho wrote: well theres nothing like the land of the free, eh?
On April 23 2011 09:30 Roggay wrote: Wow, the law is pretty fucked up in the US. Well, not that I didnt knew that but still. It seems that the school system is a shame to begin with in the US. Poor people > bad schools, rich people > good schools, caught wanting your son a better school and you are not rich > 20years jail. Way to go america.
On April 23 2011 10:37 HansMoleman wrote: The land of the free....
On April 23 2011 12:05 chaosfreak11 wrote: Even china has better laws
On April 23 2011 21:41 Roeder wrote:
On April 23 2011 21:24 BlackFlag wrote: Europe isn't that much better.
Yes. Yes it is.
Actually it's much better.
On April 24 2011 02:14 Coraz wrote: only a wicked society goes after homeless people and widows and kicks them while they are down
On April 24 2011 05:53 ZessiM wrote: The lack of empathy for the poor in the United States is staggering.
This is the TL I know and love. Absurd generalizations that have nothing at all to do with the actual article and blanket criticism of an entire country. Glad to know bigotry and prejudice are as rampant in other nations as they are here. But I wish we could stop the double standard... if it was another particular country being bashed like this I'm sure we'd see warnings and temp-bans left and right.
as sad as generalisations is, it's the only developed country which has such a selfish culture
So America is morally inferior to the rest of the developed world...
On April 28 2011 14:29 HowitZer wrote: The thing is a fake. It was computer generated. Here's a video showing Adobe Illustrator saying so. It automatically tells you where the differentiating parts are.
If you just look at things objectively without caring about anything else the truth will show itself.
I just booted up the pdf file myself straight from the Obama website. While I don't have AI, just preview, half of the stuff he describes isn't there or isn't as dramatic as he said. Looks like I've been shown the truth!
On April 28 2011 14:29 HowitZer wrote: The thing is a fake. It was computer generated. Here's a video showing Adobe Illustrator saying so. It automatically tells you where the differentiating parts are.
If you just look at things objectively without caring about anything else the truth will show itself.
I just booted up the pdf file myself straight from the Obama website. While I don't have AI, just preview, half of the stuff he describes isn't there or isn't as dramatic as he said. Looks like I've been shown the truth!
Kudos.
Once again, people take the easy way out and follow someone like sheep without investigating themselves. Typical really.
On April 28 2011 10:37 sua1ty wrote: Falldownmarigold: I have never heard of "Libtard" your making that shit up, so go ahead and stop lying to us, and as a matter of fact: http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/11/news/economy/obama_health_plan_no_bargain.fortune/ the health plan is no bargain. "The lines will grow. And so will the spending, and the taxes. And that's what Obama isn't telling you."
azn_dude1: "Hey guys. It doesn't matter where he was born. His mom was American. He can be president. Now shut up birthers." ...this is not a surprising comment in the least. Especially since someone, what 2 posts before this? posted the actual requirements... Most people who use the word "Birthers" must have no idea to begin with...
Ok, so I'm done with you trolls, now keep on believing that Obama is doing... anything right, but I'm going to go watch the NASL now.
You're a moron. That's a one-sided and narrow view of the healthcare legislation. Correct, taxes will slightly increase in the short term in order to make up for the 25 million uninsured that would be required to have health insurance under the new individual mandate. In the long run, however, this measure mitigates adverse selection, which currently poses a risk of running insurance markets into a death spiral. Moreover, with a greater number of the population insured, there will be more means to provide preventative care - something also included in the recent healthcare overhaul. This fact implies that less cases will end up in the hospital and emergency room, which currently contribute to cost "in the short term".
You're obviously a complete moron that can't think for himself. The fact that you merely parrot out an article that you don't even understand is laughable. You blindly are fed one piece of information, then you attempt to fashion a belief out of it - that the healthcare legislation is BAD! Evil! Obammy done it!
Get over yourself, get an education, and stop perpetuating idiotic nonsense. And for the record, it's "you're" - not your as you used it, lol. As for "libtard", run a Google search. I'm not going to hold your hand - use the internet. What a joke you are. Absolutely no substance to your argument/beliefs.
On April 28 2011 08:48 Hinanawi wrote: Clearly we need Obama to release a certificate proving he isn't an ancient reborn Muslim sorcerer creating chimeras. I think it's pretty suspicious that he hasn't done anything to quell these very serious concerns.
He can't provide a certificate of live birth because... he wasn't born live! It all makes so much sense now! He is a zombie necromancer sorcerer creating and training chimeras to steal our brains so he can eat them! BEWARE THE BRAIN SUCKING CHIMERAS!!!
He should at least try to think before making accusations: - It is obviously 2 pages, one for the birth certificate, one for the certification that it is genuine. - The date seal at 22. has pretty obviously different font compared to the text because... it is a seal. - As for the 1 on the top left, from the 1280x1534 jpg I have, I do not see any difference in PhotoFiltre. Same chromatic aberration, same font, it's just a bit stronger and perhaps blurrier. Not necessarily forgery, it could have been caused by something as simple as being pressed harder than the other numbers.
If you just look at things objectively without caring about anything else the truth will show itself.
Yep.
Oh and to all those who are calling people sceptical about Obama racists, please shut up. You don't see them smearing Condoleezza Rice do you? Just because he is (half-)black, doesn't make him automatically immune to criticism and skepticism.
Oh and to all those who are calling people sceptical about Obama racists, please shut up. You don't see them smearing Condoleezza Rice do you? Just because he is (half-)black, doesn't make him automatically immune to criticism and skepticism.
Racist is a strong term, but I am sure that colour is intrinsically tied to the whole birther issue. If he was a white man with a polish sounding name this would never have happened. I don't think his colour is the primary issue for these people...but it's another thing that makes him an outsider to them, an infilitrator, and another reason why they cannot accept that he was legitimately elected as President.
it is disgusting that this shit still goes on. seriously how long does obama have to keep proving that hes goddamned american?? im pretty sure that if he's not american, it would be pretty hard to become the president
On April 23 2011 08:20 frontline wrote: Typical BS United States :/
fixed, for accuracy
On April 23 2011 08:43 Hypemeup wrote: USA #1! USA #1! USA #1!
This is just sad
On April 23 2011 09:12 Project Psycho wrote: well theres nothing like the land of the free, eh?
On April 23 2011 09:30 Roggay wrote: Wow, the law is pretty fucked up in the US. Well, not that I didnt knew that but still. It seems that the school system is a shame to begin with in the US. Poor people > bad schools, rich people > good schools, caught wanting your son a better school and you are not rich > 20years jail. Way to go america.
On April 23 2011 10:37 HansMoleman wrote: The land of the free....
On April 23 2011 12:05 chaosfreak11 wrote: Even china has better laws
On April 23 2011 21:41 Roeder wrote:
On April 23 2011 21:24 BlackFlag wrote: Europe isn't that much better.
Yes. Yes it is.
Actually it's much better.
On April 24 2011 02:14 Coraz wrote: only a wicked society goes after homeless people and widows and kicks them while they are down
On April 24 2011 05:53 ZessiM wrote: The lack of empathy for the poor in the United States is staggering.
This is the TL I know and love. Absurd generalizations that have nothing at all to do with the actual article and blanket criticism of an entire country. Glad to know bigotry and prejudice are as rampant in other nations as they are here. But I wish we could stop the double standard... if it was another particular country being bashed like this I'm sure we'd see warnings and temp-bans left and right.
as sad as generalisations is, it's the only developed country which has such a selfish culture and lack of solidarity in the culture. BUT THATS OFFTOPIC
I can see why americans, nationalistic as most of them are, would want to know if their president was American born. What I dont get is, that this would practically be a prevention of someone moving from England fx and making a political career after living their whole life in America but getting born in England? I wonder if it's simply nationalistic or even simplier that some republicans are still as racistic.
You can hold any other office in the country other than the presidency if you are foreign born, you could be a 4 term US senator. Really not that restrictive, and when it was written it was a different era. Besides it is the only thing saving us from the horror that would be schwarzenegger campaign for President.
On April 28 2011 14:29 HowitZer wrote: The thing is a fake. It was computer generated. Here's a video showing Adobe Illustrator saying so. It automatically tells you where the differentiating parts are.
If you just look at things objectively without caring about anything else the truth will show itself.
Do you have any idea how scanners, computer graphics, or .pdf format works?
Here's a source explaining why these things happen with scanned .pdf files. It's a conservative source since I know if I linked anything else they'd also undoubtedly be part of the grand conspiracy to you:
Really though, it doesn't even take knowledge about scanners/graphics/pdf to get this. If the whole thing's a conspiracy, do you really believe they don't know how to fucking flatten an image file? Please give your shadowy puppetmasters more credit than that.
his argument about the bleeding etc is something that can easily be fixed with photoshop. i'm sure after they scanned the document they processed it as well to make it more legible. A simple levels/curve/contrast adjustment can get rid of the yucky greys in exchange for losing anti aliasing around the edges of letters.
that aside, i'd also imagine those documents to use a letter template to begin with =\
On April 28 2011 14:57 Uncultured wrote: Keep blanket insulting the american people, Hmmmm. It makes you look very intelligent.
Do birthers not realize that Obama had to cement his candidacy before being nominated by the DNC? Did they not watch the primaries?
Two sides aren't always equal, and prancing around acting superior doesn't help your cause one bit.
... This is the embodiment of exactly what I said was wrong with peoples mindset in my previous post. I stated nothing about either side of the debate. I called someone out who was insulting all american people. And you call me a birther and bring up an argument that has literally no relation to anything I was talking about. That's literally hilarious.
WTF did I write? I said birthers, not that you are a birther. Yes, you were acting superior with your sarcasm.
Superior? Sarcasm is used to illustrate a point with some humor, not to make one person seem superior over the other. Why quote my post and then respond immediately with a question not directed at me? That seems a little silly to me. And what does two sides not being equal have to do with superiority not helping a cause?
First thing i thought when i saw the long form pdf birth certificate was the numbers do not appear to be written by a typewriter but seem to be written on a computer with a typewriter type font.This is proven when moving the pdf into adobe illustrator , the text layers can be freely moved around yet the certificate is masquerading as an original scanned document from 1961.This story just gets weirder and weirder.
On April 28 2011 21:58 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: First thing i thought when i saw the long form pdf birth certificate was the numbers do not appear to be written by a typewriter but seem to be written on a computer with a typewriter type font.This is proven when moving the pdf into adobe illustrator , the text layers can be freely moved around yet the certificate is masquerading as an original scanned document from 1961.This story just gets weirder and weirder.
Honestly, if Obama was going to make a forgery of his birth certificate, would he really make it so bad that an idiot with Adobe Illustrator would be able to identify it as a fake?
I am sure the conspirators from the 60s would be smart enough and technologically savvy enough to do a much better job.
On April 28 2011 21:58 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: First thing i thought when i saw the long form pdf birth certificate was the numbers do not appear to be written by a typewriter but seem to be written on a computer with a typewriter type font.This is proven when moving the pdf into adobe illustrator , the text layers can be freely moved around yet the certificate is masquerading as an original scanned document from 1961.This story just gets weirder and weirder.
Typical , dismiss it before even watching the video. You really think those letters are written by a 1960 typewriter? they look computer generated , far too crisp to be a 50 year old typewritten document that has been scanned in.
This is obviously the most important issue in the United States. Good job conspiracy theorists for bringing to light the real problems plaguing the US currently and making our government focus on them rather than less important issues such as the economy.
On April 28 2011 21:58 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: First thing i thought when i saw the long form pdf birth certificate was the numbers do not appear to be written by a typewriter but seem to be written on a computer with a typewriter type font.This is proven when moving the pdf into adobe illustrator , the text layers can be freely moved around yet the certificate is masquerading as an original scanned document from 1961.This story just gets weirder and weirder.
Typical , dismiss it before even watching the video. You really think those letters are written by a 1960 typewriter? they look computer generated , far too crisp to be a 50 year old typewritten document that has been scanned in.
I want the original file from the white house, myself, before judging anything. I know my way around illustrator. Just because some dude in a video is turning a layer on and off doesn't mean that this person didn't falsify it, themselves, by potentially re-creating the birth certificate to show "anomalies" that they may have invented themselves for an agenda they have.
On the contrary, it is not dismissing before even watching the video (even though you were talking to another guy). I watched the video. It is not proof of anything. It would take me an hour to re-make someones birth certificate and hide numbers and little things inside of it, and I'm not even a "PHOTOSHOP EXPERT!!!!!"
Even if some of the anomalies are true, having the certificate end in 1 instead of 0 and having a few things missing/added here and there doesn't really prove foul-play, all it proves is that it was touched up. "Touched up" could mean many things. Maybe it was in poor condition and they decided to clean it up. In regards to changing numbers, maybe the system was streamlined when they switched from paper to digital, and they discovered a missing document and reduced everyones numbers by 1. It could even be foul play- the fact is that nobody knows.
Frankly the fact that anyone cares about where someone is born is funny to me. He's no better/worse a president whether he was born in Hawaii or Iraq. People are just looking for something to complain about and government conspiracy theories are a popular trend.
On April 28 2011 22:26 Angra wrote: This is obviously the most important issue in the United States. Good job conspiracy theorists for bringing to light the real problems plaguing the US currently and making our government focus on them rather than less important issues such as the economy.
You just ignore anyone that brings anything important to light.
On April 28 2011 21:58 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: First thing i thought when i saw the long form pdf birth certificate was the numbers do not appear to be written by a typewriter but seem to be written on a computer with a typewriter type font.This is proven when moving the pdf into adobe illustrator , the text layers can be freely moved around yet the certificate is masquerading as an original scanned document from 1961.This story just gets weirder and weirder.
"Theres no mention of religion" so how did he get his hussein surname? i read the whole article and if im not mistaken he said he was a muslim(not in the article) but then he said he is a christian, oh well it's not like i care about his religion but im just curious about his surname etc. Sounds pretty awesome Barrack obama Hussein
So it seems people think this is fake = Conspiracy Government is corrupted they can fake his birth cert etc Probably more things about this whole " OMFG he aint born in hawaii he born in kenya"
Damn that is just sad just let it go..
i still think its a shame he had to prove it that he was born there but oh well rather have the people know the truth instead of going around showing people their conspiracy.
Looking at it from a non-US citizen's perspective, I think it is pretty sad that some people would waste so much energy on such a stupid debate. I'm sorry but do you hear yourselves? Instead of talking about pressing matters like the economy or foreign policies, you get riled up over your president's birth certificate....Have you nothing else to do in your time? The amount of ridiculous is just funny at this point and starting to become very fucking sad for a nation to be divided on such a stupid and detail.
On April 29 2011 01:26 Kindred wrote: Looking at it from a non-US citizen's perspective, I think it is pretty sad that some people would waste so much energy on such a stupid debate. I'm sorry but do you hear yourselves? Instead of talking about pressing matters like the economy or foreign policies, you get riled up over your president's birth certificate....Have you nothing else to do in your time? The amount of ridiculous is just funny at this point and starting to become very fucking sad for a nation to be divided on such a stupid and detail.
You are talking about a country that almost shut down its government over planned parenthood.
This is something I saw that I wanted to bring to all your attention. You can all make your own judgments, I withhold mine. I only saw this else where. Thoughts?
On April 29 2011 01:57 CrimsnDragn wrote: This is something I saw that I wanted to bring to all your attention. You can all make your own judgments, I withhold mine. I only saw this else where. Thoughts?
Stopped paying attention when I read that a pixel was not the same "size" as another
The group on the left is actually 4 pixels, but when they are grouped like that it appears that they are not 4 times as large as a fully colored in single pixel.
So, optical illusion, nothing is wrong here.
It was also scanned, probably not on top of the line perfect equipment to get the detail of the wood fibers for you.
On April 29 2011 02:03 Body_Shield wrote: The group on the left is actually 4 pixels, but when they are grouped like that it appears that they are not 4 times as large as a fully colored in single pixel.
So, optical illusion, nothing is wrong here.
It was also scanned, probably not on top of the line perfect equipment to get the detail of the wood fibers for you.
Maybe, but the source noted that the rest of the document has consistent pixelation.
Many kinds of document scanners and document archiving software use MRC compression, which takes advantage of the PDF file format's capabilities. It pulls out high-contrast information (like text) and compresses it using a format like PNG which is good at that sort of information, and uses JPEG or some other lossy format for other parts of the image. It can also store different parts of the image at different resolutions depending on the level of detail. That's why some parts of the text are more pixelated than others, or has different compression artifacts, and why the file consists of multiple layers. When you're archiving many thousands (or millions) of documents, the space savings from techniques like this can be very large, which is why they do it. The software can also do OCR to make the documents searchable, and will attach the OCRed text to some of the image layers, or even replace the image layers with text layers, depending on how it's configured.
Well I made a comment in this thread yesterday and I thought that today the thread would already be dead. My bad. I'm honestly baffled with how much importance is given to this matter when there is more important matters to be solved.
I bet no one of the 77 million PSN clients are concerned about Obama right now. Just a guess.
On April 29 2011 02:03 Body_Shield wrote: The group on the left is actually 4 pixels, but when they are grouped like that it appears that they are not 4 times as large as a fully colored in single pixel.
So, optical illusion, nothing is wrong here.
It was also scanned, probably not on top of the line perfect equipment to get the detail of the wood fibers for you.
Maybe, but the source noted that the rest of the document has consistent pixelation.
"consistent pixelation" lol? wtf is that? You're not making sense, look up what a pixel is, it's always constant, the only explanation for the image you posted is that it's a bad photoshop aimed at laymen. A pixel will never have a different "size" lol.
On April 29 2011 02:15 VIB wrote: "consistent pixelation" lol? wtf is that? You're not making sense, look up what a pixel is, it's always constant, the only explanation for the image you posted is that it's a bad photoshop aimed at laymen. A pixel will never have a different "size" lol.
Read my post above. The pixelation is explained by the the types of compression used by document scanning and archiving software.
Can you guys explain why you think the US government is capable of things 1000x more sneaky than this, yet mess up with photoshop? Give me a break. What you guys are saying doesn't even make sense and you know it. You know that it seems weird that the US government would release a REALLY poorly done fake document when they didn't even need to. You don't think the president has the resources to make a fake absolutely fucking perfect?
I don't think its fake, and I realize that I'd never know if it was. The US government isn't some dumb kid on a forum who taught himself photoshop.
Silly if you ask me.. the fact that this has made such a big fuss is amazing. But now that things have been cleared out perhaps the American people can focus on the more important matters..
On April 29 2011 02:37 Mohdoo wrote: Can you guys explain why you think the US government is capable of things 1000x more sneaky than this, yet mess up with photoshop? Give me a break. What you guys are saying doesn't even make sense and you know it. You know that it seems weird that the US government would release a REALLY poorly done fake document when they didn't even need to. You don't think the president has the resources to make a fake absolutely fucking perfect?
I don't think its fake, and I realize that I'd never know if it was. The US government isn't some dumb kid on a forum who taught himself photoshop.
Not to mention that there wouldn't be any reason to photoshop it in the first place. The way more effective way to forge would obviously be to just get 3 random people and have them just sign an empty form. Why would you even bother with photoshop in the first place :/.
This is one of those topics that becomes annoying to debate. The birther movement is just willing ignorance, and for every one intelligent person that can actually put forth their argument correctly, there are 100 others that state non-facts over and over as if that makes them real.
But the problem is, even the more intelligent posters are incapable of digesting opposing facts. As has been said, there is no proof out there that would convince them. When one part of their argument fails, they continue down a different path, always equally wrong.
They simply don't like obama. It is not always racism, but you would have to be naive to believe a large majority aren't racists, and that that is their underlining reason. They don't like him and so anything negative that comes out is believable.
BTW, I am not at all a pc person, so when I call people racist, it's because that is what they are. If you aren't personally racist and a birther, that is fine. But you are the minority.
On April 28 2011 16:07 acker wrote: Type in "birther" and "poll" into Google. The results are depressing.
Make sure to use "Trump" and "poll" as a pseudo-control group, though.
The polls are only like that because only birthers care about those polls enough to search for them and fill them out. Since they're internet polls you don't get a random sample...you only get a sample of people who frequent a certain website or specifically search for that poll. Internet polls are not considered reliable by most political scientists.
I am open minded regarding the birth certificate until I can find expert opinions regarding its authenticity. Unfortunately, thus far I have only found, overall, photo shop experts seem to believe the birth certificate is a fake. I am wondering if anyone knows of additional sources where photo shop experts are saying the birth certificate is real? Or if anyone here is a professional on the birth certificate and can confirm its real? I would linking to people who have a degree and/or other obvious credentials.
But, this does not answer the question why in the Obama birth certificate PDF the layers or elements contain dates – which appear to be modified – and the signature of the state registrar. If the document was acquired from state records in whole, why was it necessary to add elements? Goulding and Brooks do not address this issue.
Of course the left wing criminals in the media will not question the validity of this document, because they are part of the conspiracy.
or
Finally, also wanted to make the point that regardless of where Obama is born, he’s still not a Natural Born Citizen since both parents were not born on U.S. soil but I won’t hold my breath waiting for the media to educate the public on this fact.
You don't bat an eye and think, hey maybe this is bullshit?
Finally, also wanted to make the point that regardless of where Obama is born, he’s still not a Natural Born Citizen since both parents were not born on U.S. soil but I won’t hold my breath waiting for the media to educate the public on this fact.
You don't bat an eye and think, hey maybe this is bullshit?
Kurt Nimmo is such a vitriolic writer (:
edit: and no, I don't bat an eye at this. I know alex jones more personally than the glaring with makeup teleprompter reading sock puppets on the corporate controlled media.
On April 28 2011 23:47 Mawi wrote: "Theres no mention of religion" so how did he get his hussein surname? i read the whole article and if im not mistaken he said he was a muslim(not in the article) but then he said he is a christian, oh well it's not like i care about his religion but im just curious about his surname etc. Sounds pretty awesome Barrack obama Hussein
So it seems people think this is fake = Conspiracy Government is corrupted they can fake his birth cert etc Probably more things about this whole " OMFG he aint born in hawaii he born in kenya"
Damn that is just sad just let it go..
i still think its a shame he had to prove it that he was born there but oh well rather have the people know the truth instead of going around showing people their conspiracy.
His surname is Obama. Hence he is commonly referred to as Obama.
On April 28 2011 23:47 Mawi wrote: "Theres no mention of religion" so how did he get his hussein surname? i read the whole article and if im not mistaken he said he was a muslim(not in the article) but then he said he is a christian, oh well it's not like i care about his religion but im just curious about his surname etc. Sounds pretty awesome Barrack obama Hussein
So it seems people think this is fake = Conspiracy Government is corrupted they can fake his birth cert etc Probably more things about this whole " OMFG he aint born in hawaii he born in kenya"
Damn that is just sad just let it go..
i still think its a shame he had to prove it that he was born there but oh well rather have the people know the truth instead of going around showing people their conspiracy.
He was never Muslim and his last name is Obama... Hussein is his middle name and as not a religious name so yeah, he's not and never was Muslim and his name is Barrack Hussein Obama.
This entire thing is retarded, and a waste of your tax money. If you've ever complained about excessive spending of government money or too high taxes, but you're still FOR the birth certificate test here, then you've now signed away any right to complain about tax or government inefficiency for the rest of your life, as this is the pinnacle of silliness of both.
That being said - I am expecting the birthers to be adamant on demanding birth certificates of every candidate from now on untill the end of the Union, including the certificates of wealthy, white politicians from the south west. And I also expect them to be as enthusiastic about the scrutiny of the papers as they have been in this case.
Either that, or they'll admit that this is not about following the protocol of Office, but rather about personal attacks, bigotry and xenophobia.
I can't believe he actually gave in to this... silliness.. The US is a country formed by fairly recent immigrants either way, so I don't really see how it matters in the first place.
Then again it wouldn't surprise me whatsoever if Trump or Palin got elected president, so silliness will probably be pretty common in the future. It'll be interesting to see what new laws that will pop up. I'm half expecting laws such as "The president is no longer electet, but is instead a lifetime job, and the post will be heired to the president's first born son", "Concentration camps will be built to 'employ' people with a high school degree" etc. I'm ofcourse European and biased though, and my opinion in the matter doesn't matter the slightest, so take it for what it is ^^ I think it's important to watch out though, and please, American TLers, elect a president who can spell to Bejujular. Pz ♥
On April 29 2011 02:41 werkan wrote: Silly if you ask me.. the fact that this has made such a big fuss is amazing. But now that things have been cleared out perhaps the American people can focus on the more important matters..
This. I seriously don't care if Obama is secretly a my little pony character, or if he descended from another country or the moon. "Can he lead?" Is the question I ask. Why, oh why are my countrymen and countrywomen so split over such nuances, when our education infrastructure is being throttled as I type, our workforce is clearly still suffering (I still don't believe that only 9.2 percent is unemployed, it also does not count the people who had higher wages who were forced to resign, and now have jobs of minimum wage, or indeed those below the poverty line.) We are split, SPLIT over such a trivial thing, and we let our healthcare rot away (or rather, nobody can agree on one thing and STILL avoid the topic). All for the sake of re-election. Seriously, I don't care which party says omg other party sucks, look at YOURSELVES TOO. FIX YOURSELVES FIRST.
I will voice my opinion, that Obama has made some "right moves", and he has made a ton of "wrong" ones. So did the presidents before him I might add. I however will agree with what he said. "There is no time for this." We cannot duct tape or quick fix this, it will take a lot more then one or two presidencies of different parties before we can resolve our problems, if indeed at all.
On April 23 2011 08:20 frontline wrote: Typical BS United States :/
fixed, for accuracy
On April 23 2011 08:43 Hypemeup wrote: USA #1! USA #1! USA #1!
This is just sad
On April 23 2011 09:12 Project Psycho wrote: well theres nothing like the land of the free, eh?
On April 23 2011 09:30 Roggay wrote: Wow, the law is pretty fucked up in the US. Well, not that I didnt knew that but still. It seems that the school system is a shame to begin with in the US. Poor people > bad schools, rich people > good schools, caught wanting your son a better school and you are not rich > 20years jail. Way to go america.
On April 23 2011 10:37 HansMoleman wrote: The land of the free....
On April 23 2011 12:05 chaosfreak11 wrote: Even china has better laws
On April 23 2011 21:41 Roeder wrote:
On April 23 2011 21:24 BlackFlag wrote: Europe isn't that much better.
Yes. Yes it is.
Actually it's much better.
On April 24 2011 02:14 Coraz wrote: only a wicked society goes after homeless people and widows and kicks them while they are down
On April 24 2011 05:53 ZessiM wrote: The lack of empathy for the poor in the United States is staggering.
This is the TL I know and love. Absurd generalizations that have nothing at all to do with the actual article and blanket criticism of an entire country. Glad to know bigotry and prejudice are as rampant in other nations as they are here. But I wish we could stop the double standard... if it was another particular country being bashed like this I'm sure we'd see warnings and temp-bans left and right.
as sad as generalisations is, it's the only developed country which has such a selfish culture and lack of solidarity in the culture. BUT THATS OFFTOPIC
I can see why americans, nationalistic as most of them are, would want to know if their president was American born. What I dont get is, that this would practically be a prevention of someone moving from England fx and making a political career after living their whole life in America but getting born in England? I wonder if it's simply nationalistic or even simplier that some republicans are still as racistic.
You can hold any other office in the country other than the presidency if you are foreign born, you could be a 4 term US senator. Really not that restrictive, and when it was written it was a different era. Besides it is the only thing saving us from the horror that would be schwarzenegger campaign for President.
Yeah but I feel like their wouldnt be this debate if he wasn't black. Because your nationality ain't gonna have any influence on your politics and while Obama has done alot to make America more internationalized as a whole he haven't done anything to promote a specific country (which you could suspect a foreign guy in charge would? Besides, he has lived his whole life on American soil (from elementary school and up atleast afaik) it. should. NOT make any difference, which is why this whole case is as silly as it is (especially now that he has published his birth certificatory for the 3rd time or so)
Wow. I just learned I am not an American citizen! South Carolina also only issues Certificates of Live Birth! Oh crap! My whole state is a bunch of illegals bent on corrupting America!
This is terrifying news. Quickly, I need to callup Hawaii and have them also forge a certificate for me!
Wait, my friends just told me I'm really white, so I must be an American. Whew. Close one. Thank God, I'm not Black with a common name for a population quite a big bigger than the US by some circumstance.
...
Guys, how are we fighting over this? How can you actually think this a) matters or b) matters?
Jesus christ you people do realize that if the leader of the US government wanted to fake his fucking birth certificate he could just walk into any government building and use the actuall printing press and make a legit birth certificate.
Ooh wait no ofcourse the powers of the shadow government do not extend to local government 60 year old close to pension grandma's that sit behind a counter all day.
By the way, can't there be a rule to execute everyone that actually listens to Alex Jones? It would make me very happy but it would also make the Alex fans very happy because it would play into their fetish for being the victim of an evil government.
I knew this was gonna happen. Part of me wished it didn't because being the nice guy that i am i expected even conspiracy theorists to be atleast a little reasonable in the face of overwhelming evidence like this. Sadly i over estimated the conspiracy freaks and they continue to latch onto this bullshit.
On April 29 2011 05:56 Iplaythings wrote: Yeah but I feel like their wouldnt be this debate if he wasn't black.
That's true, although it's partly the "ethnic sounding" name. If he had an "American sounding" name like Jack Brown or something, they probably wouldn't be going for the "he's a moooslum foreigner!" angle. They'd stick to the old-fashioned, dog-whistle attacks like "strapping young buck", "affirmative action hire", "angry black man" or whatever (not that they haven't tried those on Obama also.) They don't stick that well because his personality is so incredibly sedate.
On April 29 2011 05:11 ZeaL. wrote: When your sources contain sentences like:
Of course the left wing criminals in the media will not question the validity of this document, because they are part of the conspiracy.
or
Finally, also wanted to make the point that regardless of where Obama is born, he’s still not a Natural Born Citizen since both parents were not born on U.S. soil but I won’t hold my breath waiting for the media to educate the public on this fact.
You don't bat an eye and think, hey maybe this is bullshit?
Kurt Nimmo is such a vitriolic writer (:
edit: and no, I don't bat an eye at this. I know alex jones more personally than the glaring with makeup teleprompter reading sock puppets on the corporate controlled media.
Hate to break it to you, but talk radio (from my experience) is just as much teleprompter reading sock puppets under corporate control as anyone else. Unless you're on NPR.
On April 29 2011 05:58 -Archangel- wrote: Are people in USA so racist that they would go this far to not have a black president?! Land of the free and brave? Really?!
Nothing to do with being black, everything to do with our Constitution and the strict coherence to it.
On April 29 2011 05:58 -Archangel- wrote: Are people in USA so racist that they would go this far to not have a black president?! Land of the free and brave? Really?!
Nothing to do with being black, everything to do with our Constitution and the strict coherence to it.
To be fair, the Constitution has been ignored several times during American history. Witness Lincoln's refusal to recognize habeaus corpus during the Civil War and Andrew Jackson's outright refusing to go along with the Supreme Court's decision related to the Native Americans. The CIA has violated constitutional rights of their prisoners, even American ones, more than once as well. And those are just three that spring to mind.
Edit: Just saying all of those are far more dire than a birth certificate, yet they don't seem to be objected to all that much...
Being an American, this disgusts me. I really am sick of how many wackos we have in the states and sick of how many of them are involved in politics and the government.
When will this end, or more realistically, when will this lunacy be limited to the drug addicts and mentally insane. :r
On April 29 2011 05:58 -Archangel- wrote: Are people in USA so racist that they would go this far to not have a black president?! Land of the free and brave? Really?!
Nothing to do with being black, everything to do with our Constitution and the strict coherence to it.
Are you saying we made such big deals about the birth place of the past 43 presidents, and required their birth certificates?
Are you really arguing that the birther "movement" doesn't have racist undertones? LOL!
On April 29 2011 05:58 -Archangel- wrote: Are people in USA so racist that they would go this far to not have a black president?! Land of the free and brave? Really?!
Damn, I'm getting quite a collection of posts here... Keep going guys.
I can't believe this vocal minority got this reaction. It's an embarrassment to be Americam when things like this get so much attention and even need to be dealt with.
On April 29 2011 05:58 -Archangel- wrote: Are people in USA so racist that they would go this far to not have a black president?! Land of the free and brave? Really?!
Nothing to do with being black, everything to do with our Constitution and the strict coherence to it.
To be fair, the Constitution has been ignored several times during American history. Witness Lincoln's refusal to recognize habeaus corpus during the Civil War and Andrew Jackson's outright refusing to go along with the Supreme Court's decision related to the Native Americans. The CIA has violated constitutional rights of their prisoners, even American ones, more than once as well. And those are just three that spring to mind.
Edit: Just saying all of those are far more dire than a birth certificate, yet they don't seem to be objected to all that much...
Wartime greatly extends the powers of the executive to the point where acts ordinarily unconstitutional may indeed become lawful when the nation is faced with an existential threat.
Naturally, the existential threat is what the debate tends to be over...moreover, it's questionable whether enemy combatants have full constitutional rights as it is. Hamdi v Rumsfeld and Boumediene v Bush illustrate this. Aliens have the right of habeas corpus, but many other rights are curtailed or entirely forsaken in wartime.
And if someone dares to bring up the whole "Congress never declared war herp derp" they should be slapped in the face.
I am open minded regarding the birth certificate until I can find expert opinions regarding its authenticity. Unfortunately, thus far I have only found, overall, photo shop experts seem to believe the birth certificate is a fake. I am wondering if anyone knows of additional sources where photo shop experts are saying the birth certificate is real? Or if anyone here is a professional on the birth certificate and can confirm its real? I would linking to people who have a degree and/or other obvious credentials.
But, this does not answer the question why in the Obama birth certificate PDF the layers or elements contain dates – which appear to be modified – and the signature of the state registrar. If the document was acquired from state records in whole, why was it necessary to add elements? Goulding and Brooks do not address this issue.
I love this guy! People with "degrees in photoshop" looked at this! Like his sister who is a photographer! He also went to mainstream non-political photoshop sites to check! Also, the "enya" from Kenya was edited in. Obama is really from Kansas! You heard it here first people! And the "e" of "None" was also edited in! Obama is a FRENCH Kansasian!
Though I think he is lying. There are no non-political photoshop sites. Theyre all + Show Spoiler +
Space Nazi Jews bent on faking the second coming of Christ by attacking from their Dark Side of the Moon base with UFOs, funded by the Rothschild family! And yes, I met a missionary who actually believed that.
On April 29 2011 07:03 tmorita wrote: I seriously can't believe this has been such an issue. A waste of time that succeeds only in making us look stupid.
So much other important stuff to worry about, IMO.
Don't worry. The biggest part in making you look stupid was Bush Jr's job and he was extremely successful.
Personally, I think it was a political mistake to ever engage with the birthers at all. The "issue" isn't going to disappear, if anything this has just lended legitimacy to some wingnuts. Should've just ignored this crap from the start.
On April 29 2011 07:14 Harrow wrote: Summary of most of this thread:
Personally, I think it was a political mistake to ever engage with the birthers at all. The "issue" isn't going to disappear, if anything this has just lended legitimacy to some wingnuts. Should've just ignored this crap from the start.
Well to be fair, he just started campaigning for his second term. Nothing like a bit of drama to get some press.
On April 29 2011 07:05 crms wrote: I can't believe this vocal minority got this reaction. It's an embarrassment to be Americam when things like this get so much attention and even need to be dealt with.
On April 29 2011 07:03 tmorita wrote: I seriously can't believe this has been such an issue. A waste of time that succeeds only in making us look stupid.
So much other important stuff to worry about, IMO.
Do you guys not realize that this is precisely the reaction Obama was trying to evoke by releasing this and making a news story out of it? In fact, he quite literally said "now we can get beyond this silliness and focus on serious issues." Don't you realize that he was never, ever forced to release anything, that in fact he WANTED to release it, and make the issue bigger than it needed to be?
I always knew there were nutjobs out there in the world but I never realized intelligent people could be so gullible and easily manipulated.
On April 29 2011 07:05 crms wrote: I can't believe this vocal minority got this reaction. It's an embarrassment to be Americam when things like this get so much attention and even need to be dealt with.
On April 29 2011 07:03 tmorita wrote: I seriously can't believe this has been such an issue. A waste of time that succeeds only in making us look stupid.
So much other important stuff to worry about, IMO.
Do you guys not realize that this is precisely the reaction Obama was trying to evoke by releasing this and making a news story out of it? In fact, he quite literally said "now we can get beyond this silliness and focus on serious issues." Don't you realize that he was never, ever forced to release anything, that in fact he WANTED to release it, and make the issue bigger than it needed to be?
I always knew there were nutjobs out there in the world but I never realized intelligent people could be so gullible and easily manipulated.
It's campaigning. It will make the GOP look like a bunch of nut-jobs.
It's just a means to a good end: keep the GOP away from the white house...
On April 29 2011 05:11 ZeaL. wrote: When your sources contain sentences like:
Of course the left wing criminals in the media will not question the validity of this document, because they are part of the conspiracy.
or
Finally, also wanted to make the point that regardless of where Obama is born, he’s still not a Natural Born Citizen since both parents were not born on U.S. soil but I won’t hold my breath waiting for the media to educate the public on this fact.
You don't bat an eye and think, hey maybe this is bullshit?
Kurt Nimmo is such a vitriolic writer (:
edit: and no, I don't bat an eye at this. I know alex jones more personally than the glaring with makeup teleprompter reading sock puppets on the corporate controlled media.
So you're going to ignore the fact that he IS a natural born citizen of the US regardless of where his parents were born because he was born on US soil?
On April 29 2011 07:05 crms wrote: I can't believe this vocal minority got this reaction. It's an embarrassment to be Americam when things like this get so much attention and even need to be dealt with.
On April 29 2011 07:03 tmorita wrote: I seriously can't believe this has been such an issue. A waste of time that succeeds only in making us look stupid.
So much other important stuff to worry about, IMO.
Do you guys not realize that this is precisely the reaction Obama was trying to evoke by releasing this and making a news story out of it? In fact, he quite literally said "now we can get beyond this silliness and focus on serious issues." Don't you realize that he was never, ever forced to release anything, that in fact he WANTED to release it, and make the issue bigger than it needed to be?
I always knew there were nutjobs out there in the world but I never realized intelligent people could be so gullible and easily manipulated.
or maybe it was released to show the state of which america is in (a point)? how was the intelligent people gullible and manipulated, I'm sure most of them thought it was a stupid issue prior to releasing it (look at poll). So people's reaction is similar to before. What's wrong with making it a big deal anyways (saying that as if what you say Obama really wanted to happen)?
Some scanners will automatically try to separate letters from background into different layers. Since OCR is imperfect. It will often accidently separate some stuff and not others. That's why some numbers are and others aren't. Some parts of the signatures will be detected others won't.
The other part about some letters not looking like what they it should is just silly..duh. They don't know what typewriter wrote those and what defects it could have had.
And from my personal experience most of "professional" photoshop "experts" are horribly bad at understanding the underlying software. People just use the tools but have no idea how the algorithm that coded it works. Artists are not usually good engineers. So don't get too caught up by people saying "wow some experts say XYZ" because they are likely just slackers
edit: conclusion, someone used a scanner not knowing OCR was on. Software separates some parts of the image, which causes some weird effects. Photoshop artists with no deep understanding of software engineering freak out. Media will rush to publish a good story without worrying about actually looking it up. Nothing to see here.
On April 29 2011 05:58 -Archangel- wrote: Are people in USA so racist that they would go this far to not have a black president?! Land of the free and brave? Really?!
Nothing to do with being black, everything to do with our Constitution and the strict coherence to it.
To be fair, the Constitution has been ignored several times during American history. Witness Lincoln's refusal to recognize habeaus corpus during the Civil War and Andrew Jackson's outright refusing to go along with the Supreme Court's decision related to the Native Americans. The CIA has violated constitutional rights of their prisoners, even American ones, more than once as well. And those are just three that spring to mind.
Edit: Just saying all of those are far more dire than a birth certificate, yet they don't seem to be objected to all that much...
Wartime greatly extends the powers of the executive to the point where acts ordinarily unconstitutional may indeed become lawful when the nation is faced with an existential threat.
Naturally, the existential threat is what the debate tends to be over...moreover, it's questionable whether enemy combatants have full constitutional rights as it is. Hamdi v Rumsfeld and Boumediene v Bush illustrate this. Aliens have the right of habeas corpus, but many other rights are curtailed or entirely forsaken in wartime.
And if someone dares to bring up the whole "Congress never declared war herp derp" they should be slapped in the face.
As far as I know that bold statement isn't anywhere in the actual constitution, and I'm fairly certain that nothing that is directly prohibited by the Constitution can ever be lawful regardless of conditions (unless one isn't a strict constitutionalist). The Constitution is the supreme law of the land, after all.
And Lincoln was detaining plenty of people he recognized as American citizens. The CIA has done the same; they've also done plenty of unreasonable search and seizures outside of wartime.
This was a political maneuver of course. When polls started showing more Americans starting to consider the birther position, Obama had to step in and quash it.
Else, we'd have another "swiftboat". Americans can be stupid that way and the media will just feed the frenzy.
On April 29 2011 05:58 -Archangel- wrote: Are people in USA so racist that they would go this far to not have a black president?! Land of the free and brave? Really?!
Nothing to do with being black, everything to do with our Constitution and the strict coherence to it.
To be fair, the Constitution has been ignored several times during American history. Witness Lincoln's refusal to recognize habeaus corpus during the Civil War and Andrew Jackson's outright refusing to go along with the Supreme Court's decision related to the Native Americans. The CIA has violated constitutional rights of their prisoners, even American ones, more than once as well. And those are just three that spring to mind.
Edit: Just saying all of those are far more dire than a birth certificate, yet they don't seem to be objected to all that much...
Wartime greatly extends the powers of the executive to the point where acts ordinarily unconstitutional may indeed become lawful when the nation is faced with an existential threat.
Naturally, the existential threat is what the debate tends to be over...moreover, it's questionable whether enemy combatants have full constitutional rights as it is. Hamdi v Rumsfeld and Boumediene v Bush illustrate this. Aliens have the right of habeas corpus, but many other rights are curtailed or entirely forsaken in wartime.
And if someone dares to bring up the whole "Congress never declared war herp derp" they should be slapped in the face.
As far as I know that bold statement isn't anywhere in the actual constitution, and I'm fairly certain that nothing that is unconstitutional can ever be lawful regardless of conditions (unless one isn't a strict constitutionalist). The Constitution is the supreme law of the land, after all. And Lincoln was detaining plenty of people he recognized as American citizens. The CIA has done the same; they've also done plenty of unreasonable search and seizures.
It's a quote from Lincoln.
"I felt that measures, otherwise unconstitutional, might become lawful, by becoming indispensable to the preservation of the constitution, through the preservation of the nation."
Article 1 section 9:
"the privilege of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it."
1863 Prize cases, no declaration of war needed for executive hostilities.
It's a matter of fact that wartime greatly expands the power of the executive. Moreover, the Courts have no enforcement mechanism. Merryman in 1861 illustrates this.
Traditionally, constitutional rights can only be suspended in wartime if the civil courts are inoperable (trying Confederate officers in Alabama in a civilian court would be pointless), and Lincoln tried to extend that principle to cover much of the North during the American civil war. Likewise, military tribunals and military courts in wartime operate and convict people based on much weaker evidence than is allowed in a civilian court (hearsay is usually admitted as evidence in military trials of dangerous suspects)
To put it simply, nothing in the Constitution is absolute, and it cannot permit its own destruction merely to maintain the rights listed therein. Nothing in the constitution is truly absolute so that an adherence to some of the rights would allow the nation to collapse.
Ex Parte Milligan address this as well, martial law cannot be imposed based on the threat of an invasion, but only if the invasion is actual and deposes the civil administration. Ex parte Quirin as well. so there are limits
As for your mentioning of the CIA detaining people not in wartime, the "war on terror" qualifies as much. All an executive has to do to claim war powers since Lincoln has been to frame the conflict as inherently defensive. War is a magic word for expanding executive power
On April 29 2011 10:58 Uncultured wrote: The thing that irks me is that we were told for years now that there is no long-form birth certificate for people born in Hawaii.
And now we're told it does exist, and he's had it all along and just felt like not showing it in the face of all that skepticism?
You obviously were only listening to the birthers. All Hawaiians get a long-form birth certificate.
The issue was that Hawaiian law (lol state's rights!) prohibited the release of the original long-form certificate for EVERYONE.
The only official document Hawaii releases is the short-form certificate.
On April 29 2011 10:58 Uncultured wrote: The thing that irks me is that we were told for years now that there is no long-form birth certificate for people born in Hawaii.
And now we're told it does exist, and he's had it all along and just felt like not showing it in the face of all that skepticism?
You obviously were only listening to the birthers. All Hawaiians get a long-form birth certificate.
The issue was that Hawaiian law (lol state's rights!) prohibited the release of the original long-form certificate for EVERYONE.
The only official document Hawaii releases is the short-form certificate.
On April 29 2011 10:58 Uncultured wrote: The thing that irks me is that we were told for years now that there is no long-form birth certificate for people born in Hawaii.
And now we're told it does exist, and he's had it all along and just felt like not showing it in the face of all that skepticism?
You obviously were only listening to the birthers. All Hawaiians get a long-form birth certificate.
The issue was that Hawaiian law (lol state's rights!) prohibited the release of the original long-form certificate for EVERYONE.
The only official document Hawaii releases is the short-form certificate.
On April 29 2011 10:58 Uncultured wrote: The thing that irks me is that we were told for years now that there is no long-form birth certificate for people born in Hawaii.
And now we're told it does exist, and he's had it all along and just felt like not showing it in the face of all that skepticism?
You obviously were only listening to the birthers. All Hawaiians get a long-form birth certificate.
The issue was that Hawaiian law (lol state's rights!) prohibited the release of the original long-form certificate for EVERYONE.
The only official document Hawaii releases is the short-form certificate.
How an entire country can get caught up on such a ridiculous issue is beyond me.
Surely with all the problems going on right now, the US has more important things to worry about? And Donald Trump getting involved is a little bit hilarious - not sure how people could take him seriously.
On April 29 2011 05:58 -Archangel- wrote: Are people in USA so racist that they would go this far to not have a black president?! Land of the free and brave? Really?!
Nothing to do with being black, everything to do with our Constitution and the strict coherence to it.
To be fair, the Constitution has been ignored several times during American history. Witness Lincoln's refusal to recognize habeaus corpus during the Civil War and Andrew Jackson's outright refusing to go along with the Supreme Court's decision related to the Native Americans. The CIA has violated constitutional rights of their prisoners, even American ones, more than once as well. And those are just three that spring to mind.
Edit: Just saying all of those are far more dire than a birth certificate, yet they don't seem to be objected to all that much...
Wartime greatly extends the powers of the executive to the point where acts ordinarily unconstitutional may indeed become lawful when the nation is faced with an existential threat.
Naturally, the existential threat is what the debate tends to be over...moreover, it's questionable whether enemy combatants have full constitutional rights as it is. Hamdi v Rumsfeld and Boumediene v Bush illustrate this. Aliens have the right of habeas corpus, but many other rights are curtailed or entirely forsaken in wartime.
And if someone dares to bring up the whole "Congress never declared war herp derp" they should be slapped in the face.
As far as I know that bold statement isn't anywhere in the actual constitution, and I'm fairly certain that nothing that is unconstitutional can ever be lawful regardless of conditions (unless one isn't a strict constitutionalist). The Constitution is the supreme law of the land, after all. And Lincoln was detaining plenty of people he recognized as American citizens. The CIA has done the same; they've also done plenty of unreasonable search and seizures.
It's a quote from Lincoln.
"I felt that measures, otherwise unconstitutional, might become lawful, by becoming indispensable to the preservation of the constitution, through the preservation of the nation."
Article 1 section 9:
"the privilege of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it."
1863 Prize cases, no declaration of war needed for executive hostilities.
It's a matter of fact that wartime greatly expands the power of the executive. Moreover, the Courts have no enforcement mechanism. Merryman in 1861 illustrates this.
Traditionally, constitutional rights can only be suspended in wartime if the civil courts are inoperable (trying Confederate officers in Alabama in a civilian court would be pointless), and Lincoln tried to extend that principle to cover much of the North during the American civil war. Likewise, military tribunals and military courts in wartime operate and convict people based on much weaker evidence than is allowed in a civilian court (hearsay is usually admitted as evidence in military trials of dangerous suspects)
To put it simply, nothing in the Constitution is absolute, and it cannot permit its own destruction merely to maintain the rights listed therein. Nothing in the constitution is truly absolute so that an adherence to some of the rights would allow the nation to collapse.
Ex Parte Milligan address this as well, martial law cannot be imposed based on the threat of an invasion, but only if the invasion is actual and deposes the civil administration. Ex parte Quirin as well. so there are limits
As for your mentioning of the CIA detaining people not in wartime, the "war on terror" qualifies as much. All an executive has to do to claim war powers since Lincoln has been to frame the conflict as inherently defensive. War is a magic word for expanding executive power
Thank you for that information! I don't remember the articles closely enough. But Lincoln, just like Jackson, basically said "I'm doing it because I believe it necessary and damned with the courts." That doesn't mean it was the lawful thing to do. From a logical standpoint it was necessary, but not particularly lawful (the president cannot declare what is lawful and what isn't, his job is enforcing the existing law).
But from the perspective of many of the people that are so adamant about the birth certificate, the entire Constitution is absolute. Once someone recognizes that it isn't, they immediately realize the birth certificate issue doesn't matter at all. Even if Obama isn't a citizen, this clamor was a drain to the nation. Perhaps not to the point of allowing the nation to collapse, but once you admit the Constitution isn't absolute there's no reason to maintain parts that have a net negative effect.
On April 29 2011 05:58 -Archangel- wrote: Are people in USA so racist that they would go this far to not have a black president?! Land of the free and brave? Really?!
Nothing to do with being black, everything to do with our Constitution and the strict coherence to it.
To be fair, the Constitution has been ignored several times during American history. Witness Lincoln's refusal to recognize habeaus corpus during the Civil War and Andrew Jackson's outright refusing to go along with the Supreme Court's decision related to the Native Americans. The CIA has violated constitutional rights of their prisoners, even American ones, more than once as well. And those are just three that spring to mind.
Edit: Just saying all of those are far more dire than a birth certificate, yet they don't seem to be objected to all that much...
Wartime greatly extends the powers of the executive to the point where acts ordinarily unconstitutional may indeed become lawful when the nation is faced with an existential threat.
Naturally, the existential threat is what the debate tends to be over...moreover, it's questionable whether enemy combatants have full constitutional rights as it is. Hamdi v Rumsfeld and Boumediene v Bush illustrate this. Aliens have the right of habeas corpus, but many other rights are curtailed or entirely forsaken in wartime.
And if someone dares to bring up the whole "Congress never declared war herp derp" they should be slapped in the face.
As far as I know that bold statement isn't anywhere in the actual constitution, and I'm fairly certain that nothing that is unconstitutional can ever be lawful regardless of conditions (unless one isn't a strict constitutionalist). The Constitution is the supreme law of the land, after all. And Lincoln was detaining plenty of people he recognized as American citizens. The CIA has done the same; they've also done plenty of unreasonable search and seizures.
It's a quote from Lincoln.
"I felt that measures, otherwise unconstitutional, might become lawful, by becoming indispensable to the preservation of the constitution, through the preservation of the nation."
Article 1 section 9:
"the privilege of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it."
1863 Prize cases, no declaration of war needed for executive hostilities.
It's a matter of fact that wartime greatly expands the power of the executive. Moreover, the Courts have no enforcement mechanism. Merryman in 1861 illustrates this.
Traditionally, constitutional rights can only be suspended in wartime if the civil courts are inoperable (trying Confederate officers in Alabama in a civilian court would be pointless), and Lincoln tried to extend that principle to cover much of the North during the American civil war. Likewise, military tribunals and military courts in wartime operate and convict people based on much weaker evidence than is allowed in a civilian court (hearsay is usually admitted as evidence in military trials of dangerous suspects)
To put it simply, nothing in the Constitution is absolute, and it cannot permit its own destruction merely to maintain the rights listed therein. Nothing in the constitution is truly absolute so that an adherence to some of the rights would allow the nation to collapse.
Ex Parte Milligan address this as well, martial law cannot be imposed based on the threat of an invasion, but only if the invasion is actual and deposes the civil administration. Ex parte Quirin as well. so there are limits
Sure. However, the next part does not logically follow:
On April 29 2011 11:04 Elegy wrote: As for your mentioning of the CIA detaining people not in wartime, the "war on terror" qualifies as much. All an executive has to do to claim war powers since Lincoln has been to frame the conflict as inherently defensive. War is a magic word for expanding executive power
The federal government doesn't have the authority to abolish habeas corpus in a situation that does not entail rebellion or invasion. The war on terror does not concern either a rebellion nor an invasion in the United States. Lincoln was justified in abolishing habeas corpus because the Civil War was a rebellion. The CIA is not justified in many of its practices today.
On April 29 2011 05:58 -Archangel- wrote: Are people in USA so racist that they would go this far to not have a black president?! Land of the free and brave? Really?!
Nothing to do with being black, everything to do with our Constitution and the strict coherence to it.
To be fair, the Constitution has been ignored several times during American history. Witness Lincoln's refusal to recognize habeaus corpus during the Civil War and Andrew Jackson's outright refusing to go along with the Supreme Court's decision related to the Native Americans. The CIA has violated constitutional rights of their prisoners, even American ones, more than once as well. And those are just three that spring to mind.
Edit: Just saying all of those are far more dire than a birth certificate, yet they don't seem to be objected to all that much...
Wartime greatly extends the powers of the executive to the point where acts ordinarily unconstitutional may indeed become lawful when the nation is faced with an existential threat.
Naturally, the existential threat is what the debate tends to be over...moreover, it's questionable whether enemy combatants have full constitutional rights as it is. Hamdi v Rumsfeld and Boumediene v Bush illustrate this. Aliens have the right of habeas corpus, but many other rights are curtailed or entirely forsaken in wartime.
And if someone dares to bring up the whole "Congress never declared war herp derp" they should be slapped in the face.
As far as I know that bold statement isn't anywhere in the actual constitution, and I'm fairly certain that nothing that is unconstitutional can ever be lawful regardless of conditions (unless one isn't a strict constitutionalist). The Constitution is the supreme law of the land, after all. And Lincoln was detaining plenty of people he recognized as American citizens. The CIA has done the same; they've also done plenty of unreasonable search and seizures.
It's a quote from Lincoln.
"I felt that measures, otherwise unconstitutional, might become lawful, by becoming indispensable to the preservation of the constitution, through the preservation of the nation."
Article 1 section 9:
"the privilege of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it."
1863 Prize cases, no declaration of war needed for executive hostilities.
It's a matter of fact that wartime greatly expands the power of the executive. Moreover, the Courts have no enforcement mechanism. Merryman in 1861 illustrates this.
Traditionally, constitutional rights can only be suspended in wartime if the civil courts are inoperable (trying Confederate officers in Alabama in a civilian court would be pointless), and Lincoln tried to extend that principle to cover much of the North during the American civil war. Likewise, military tribunals and military courts in wartime operate and convict people based on much weaker evidence than is allowed in a civilian court (hearsay is usually admitted as evidence in military trials of dangerous suspects)
To put it simply, nothing in the Constitution is absolute, and it cannot permit its own destruction merely to maintain the rights listed therein. Nothing in the constitution is truly absolute so that an adherence to some of the rights would allow the nation to collapse.
Ex Parte Milligan address this as well, martial law cannot be imposed based on the threat of an invasion, but only if the invasion is actual and deposes the civil administration. Ex parte Quirin as well. so there are limits
As for your mentioning of the CIA detaining people not in wartime, the "war on terror" qualifies as much. All an executive has to do to claim war powers since Lincoln has been to frame the conflict as inherently defensive. War is a magic word for expanding executive power
Thank you for that information! I don't remember the articles closely enough. But Lincoln, just like Jackson, basically said "I'm doing it because I believe it necessary and damned with the courts." That doesn't mean it was the lawful thing to do. From a logical standpoint it was necessary, but not particularly lawful (the president cannot declare what is lawful and what isn't, his job is enforcing the existing law).
But from the perspective of many of the people that are so adamant about the birth certificate, the entire Constitution is absolute. Once someone recognizes that it isn't, they immediately realize the birth certificate issue doesn't matter at all. Even if Obama isn't a citizen, this clamor was a drain to the nation. Perhaps not to the point of allowing the nation to collapse, but once you admit the Constitution isn't absolute there's no reason to maintain parts that have a net negative effect.
Yes, although I tend to think of it as rather arbitrary. For example, the warmaking power of the government has been transferred almost completely to the executive, barring an exercise of the War Powers Act. Constitutionally (in a strict sense), the Founders would be appalled to look at the history of presidential foreign military interventions without formal Congressional declarations of hostilities. However, as (to my knowledge) the War Powers Act has never been cause for a suit, the judiciary has never made a ruling as to the constitutionality of that particular Act.
So while we might think the executive tends to act unconstitutionally in many cases, the extension of powers given to the executive in war time (and, by the Prize cases, "war" mustn't be formally declared between two parties to allow such an extension) is, in a way, an agreement amongst the branches of government that the executive must adopt more powers than ordinarily accepted, even to the point of breaching constitutional protections (questionable habeas corpus for enemy combatants until Boumediene, Japanese-American internment based loosely and in part on the principle of criminal syndicalism [see Whitney v California] etc).
Lincoln with habeas corpus, Jackson with the removal of Indians, etc, are all instances of Presidents essentially testing the boundaries of their constitutional limitations. Lincoln, at least, could very well argue his actions were constitutional, given Article 1 section 9. Surely in the civil war he was faced with the very real possibility of the disintegration of the Union. Jackson not so much, as he told the court to go fuck themselves. Likewise, FDR did much the same with Quirin.
Another way to think of it is that, in wartime, the executive is allowed to extend the limits of his constitutional powers beyond what would normally be considered legal if the state of war did not exist.
The problem, however, is when the executive uses the state of war principle in obviously vague terms. We've declared a war on terror, but terror is a means to an end, not a particular enemy. How does one defeat terror? If we declared war on guerrilla warfare, when would it end? It's an indeterminate declaration that breeds indeterminate ends. Moreover, when will the war on terror ever end? How can it? If you argue that there is an existential threat to the United States, which is grounds for the extension of the powers of the executive, how do you reconcile that with the appropriation of wartime powers?
Ex parte Endo decision puts it nicely:
"Wartime measures are to be interpreted as intending the greatest possible accommodation between the Constitutional liberties of the citizen and the exigencies of war."
But from the perspective of many of the people that are so adamant about the birth certificate, the entire Constitution is absolute. Once someone recognizes that it isn't, they immediately realize the birth certificate issue doesn't matter at all. Even if Obama isn't a citizen, this clamor was a drain to the nation. Perhaps not to the point of allowing the nation to collapse, but once you admit the Constitution isn't absolute there's no reason to maintain parts that have a net negative effect.
If the Constitution is truly, completely, and utterly absolute, the First Amendment offers an interesting case.
"Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech."
Obviously, that isn't true, and it couldn't be construed to ever mean that "no law" ever meant "NO LAW". Taken completely textually, Congress should be powerless to stop what we would consider to be harassment, obscenity, even bribery. Literally, Congress has no authority to ever, in any way, touch the freedom of speech. So clearly it doesn't really mean "no law".
But my point was that, in times of war, the executive always appropriates additional powers and extends existing ones to the point of, as seen and discussed, violates Constitutional rights given the necessity of the times.
However, little of this applies to the birth certificate issue, as it has little to nothing to do with the wartime appropriation of powers. Such a discussion is much more suited to a freedom of speech or possibly religion issue, not birth certificates.
The federal government doesn't have the authority to abolish habeas corpus in a situation that does not entail rebellion or invasion. The war on terror does not concern either a rebellion nor an invasion in the United States. Lincoln was justified in abolishing habeas corpus because the Civil War was a rebellion. The CIA is not justified in many of its practices today.
But that's the question isn't it? Invasion in a traditional sense has long since failed to mean what the word meant originally. defense of american lives/business interests/allies is what that has evolved to mean
Defense of the country has been used, time and time again, to use military force by the executive If military force can be used at the executive's discretion to act to defend the nation, it follows that, in times of war (prize cases), habeas corpus can be suspended for enemy combatants, hence why I have repeatedly mentioned the Boumediene case for its significance.
I believe it all boils down to the executive saying "we have to do this for the nation, and we can do this because its a time of war and the US is under attack" and the opponents (including the courts), saying that habeas corpus cannot be denied to aliens. Moreover, until Boumediene, it was questionable whether enemy combatants in these circumstances had that right at all
You can say the CIA is not justified in many of its practices (certainly true), but legally it's a muddy area with a lack of enforcement ability by the judiciary and the necessity on the part of the federal government to make sure that the people in Gitmo, at least some of whom are very dangerous, aren't released just because the government can't prove conclusively their guilt.
On April 29 2011 10:58 Uncultured wrote: The thing that irks me is that we were told for years now that there is no long-form birth certificate for people born in Hawaii.
And now we're told it does exist, and he's had it all along and just felt like not showing it in the face of all that skepticism?
What is wrong with you? What more do you guys want? I honestly believe that Obama was born 100% white, he would not be having this problem. I really believe that.
What landmass you're born on is especially important to idiots if you look exotic!
But from the perspective of many of the people that are so adamant about the birth certificate, the entire Constitution is absolute. Once someone recognizes that it isn't, they immediately realize the birth certificate issue doesn't matter at all. Even if Obama isn't a citizen, this clamor was a drain to the nation. Perhaps not to the point of allowing the nation to collapse, but once you admit the Constitution isn't absolute there's no reason to maintain parts that have a net negative effect.
If the Constitution is truly, completely, and utterly absolute, the First Amendment offers an interesting case.
It isn't, and no one is suggesting that the Constitution is absolute.
On April 29 2011 14:27 Elegy wrote: "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech."
Obviously, that isn't true, and it couldn't be construed to ever mean that "no law" ever meant "NO LAW". Taken completely textually, Congress should be powerless to stop what we would consider to be harassment, obscenity, even bribery. Literally, Congress has no authority to ever, in any way, touch the freedom of speech. So clearly it doesn't really mean "no law".
Again, no one is saying it is completely absolute. However, it's important to note that Congress can't really abridge freedom of speech unless it conforms to Supreme Court precedent on the interpretation of freedom of speech as outlined in the Constitution, and to protect other rights of citizens that come into conflict with certain types of "speech." (such statements aren't really classified as speech if they infringe upon the rights of others)
Of course, the Supreme Court's job is to interpret the Constitution, and on the First Amendment, it has done just that many times. There aren't any federal laws currently (that I know of) that are unconstitutional by the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Constitution.
On April 29 2011 14:27 Elegy wrote: But my point was that, in times of war, the executive always appropriates additional powers and extends existing ones to the point of, as seen and discussed, violates Constitutional rights given the necessity of the times.
That's the point. There's no conflict with other parts of the Constitution when the executive government decides to eschew habeas corpus, for example. Thus, it's unconstitutional (unlike censoring slander, on the other hand, because slander harms individuals).
On April 29 2011 14:27 Elegy wrote: However, little of this applies to the birth certificate issue, as it has little to nothing to do with the wartime appropriation of powers. Such a discussion is much more suited to a freedom of speech or possibly religion issue, not birth certificates.
The federal government doesn't have the authority to abolish habeas corpus in a situation that does not entail rebellion or invasion. The war on terror does not concern either a rebellion nor an invasion in the United States. Lincoln was justified in abolishing habeas corpus because the Civil War was a rebellion. The CIA is not justified in many of its practices today.
But that's the question isn't it? Invasion in a traditional sense has long since failed to mean what the word meant originally. defense of american lives/business interests/allies is what that has evolved to mean
No it hasn't. "The war on terrorism" has never been identified with the term "invasion" at any time in the past or the present. It HAS been identified with, however, taking the war to the enemy in their territory before it comes here.
The CIA does not ignore habeas corpus because the United States is currently being invaded. The idea itself is ludicrous.
And it's not a question. I don't understand how you can consider "defense of the nation through preemptive action in a foreign country" to be synonymous with the definition of "invasion."
On April 29 2011 14:27 Elegy wrote: Defense of the country has been used, time and time again, to use military force by the executive If military force can be used at the executive's discretion to act to defend the nation, it follows that, in times of war (prize cases), habeas corpus can be suspended for enemy combatants, hence why I have repeatedly mentioned the Boumediene case for its significance.
Again, false.
Every time that the executive branch has used it's "power" in such ways to "defend the nation" by eschewing habeas corpus or whatever other rights as outlined in the Constitution, it has violated the Constitution.
Habeas corpus CANNOT be suspended for U.S. citizens even in times of war (only in times of invasion/rebellion) and so a lot of recent actions by the executive branch have been very questionable.
Lastly, while the issue is still quite vague, all declarations of war without Congressional approval are unconstitutional. It's now a very unclear issue, but that's simply how it is.
On April 29 2011 14:27 Elegy wrote: I believe it all boils down to the executive saying "we have to do this for the nation, and we can do this because its a time of war and the US is under attack" and the opponents (including the courts), saying that habeas corpus cannot be denied to aliens. Moreover, until Boumediene, it was questionable whether enemy combatants in these circumstances had that right at all
Except, habeas corpus is not being denied just for non-U.S. citizen enemy combatants. It's also being denied for U.S. citizens.
At this point it doesn't matter, since by Boumediene the United States can't deny habeas corpus to enemy combatants in the United States/Guantanamo.
On April 29 2011 14:27 Elegy wrote: You can say the CIA is not justified in many of its practices (certainly true), but legally it's a muddy area with a lack of enforcement ability by the judiciary and the necessity on the part of the federal government to make sure that the people in Gitmo, at least some of whom are very dangerous, aren't released just because the government can't prove conclusively their guilt.
It isn't legally muddy. As per court precedent and per the Constitution, many of the executive branch's actions have been unconstitutional.
I agree that the courts lack the power for oversight at this stage, but that doesn't magically justify what the executive branch does.