EPTPvP is going to change in the next Patch ! - Page 20
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Splendour
Bulgaria129 Posts
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ChrisXIV
Austria3553 Posts
I hope they don't actually increase the research time, because it would have to be by a ridiculous amount like 60 seconds, otherwise CB makes the change irrelevant. | ||
Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
Prtoss has never been considered the weakest race. Uh...Where you around October/November 2010 where the 110 page thread on why Protoss is bad appeared on TL? When there were like 6 Protoss in the GSL, being out numbered almost 3/2 to 1 by the other races? When Blizzard publicly said they felt Protoss felt a little weak (On that note: Did you know Protoss is the only race that Blizzard has openly called "weak" at one point in time?) Agreed, but it's a needed nerf. Every non-cheese TvP build revolves around dealing with the ridiculous number of protoss allins. Right now protoss is strong in late game because their ability to turtle with FFs and get cost efficient tech (many colossi, full gateway upgrades) but they are ALSO strong with allins. No race should have super threatening offense while having insane turtle ability (FFs, warpin to stop drops). In other words, the builds terrans design to account for allins put them behind a safe economic protoss. so either terrans open safe and end up losing in the late game if protoss does not allin, or open risky and lose in early game if protoss allins. On the other side, protoss can *safely* take a fast expansion to be ahead/even with the terran (1 gate FE or 3 gate pressure) or allin to win the game outright if the terran is not super defensive. Don't even understand how you can complain about Protoss all-ins when Terran has almost five times the amount of all-ins vs Protoss. What does Protoss actually have right now in terms of all-ins? Voidray/Stalker or Voidray/Zealot all-in that hits at 6mins? 4Gate? Blink Stalkers (does anyone actually lose to this as Terran?)? I guess if you really want to stretch it, 3gate Robo, even though that is laughable to hold.... What about two base? 5/6 Gate...and..that is about it. So what, 5 all-ins, two of which are terrible and never used, ever. Now what do you have in TvP? Lets do 1base: Banshee/Marine/SCV, Banshee/Thor/Marine/SCV, Thor Rush, Thor rush w/ Stim and/or Strike cannon, Thor Rush with multiple thors, Banshee/Raven/Marine/SCV, 2rax SCV,5rax, 3rax contain, Banshee/Tank/Raven SCV, Marauder/Hellion/SCV, Marauder/Raven/Marine/SCV, 3rax/SCV, Raven/Marine/Tank/SCV, Thor/Blue flame Hellion/SCV, Hellion/Banshee/Marine/SCV, Marine/Tank/SCV with Bunkers Tell me if I missed something--pretty much any composition of units off 1base with Marine/SCV support and almost all of them require a completely different reaction and unit composition to beat---some of which are near impossible to stop in close positions, and half of them work regardless of the map. The reason people do aggressive 3gate is because half 70% of Terran all-ins are super greedy early in the game and you can straight up kill a Terran who is cutting too many corners to get some asburd unit composition to attack at like the 9min or very quick expansion whilst teching. 1Gate expo is more of a risk than 1rax Expo--at least a 1rax expand can hold off a 4gate and Voidray/Gateway all-in with good micro. There are even non-all ins from Terran that straight up kill 1gate expo, like the build plot prime did against MC--2rax Reacotor/Techlab Marine/Marauder timing before the Nexus is finished. The vast majority of oGsMCs losses against Terran have been because he went a fast expo and Terran went a build that straight up kills a fast expo. In terms of all-in --- 4gate, 3gate Voidray and blink Stalkers vs Zerg are really your only all-ins, but who knows, maybe with the change there maybe some other timing Toss can abuse with regular gateways, nothing has been announced so we can't really tell but I just find complaining about Protoss all-ins quite ridiculous when Protoss gets punished much harder from Terran all-ins BACK ON TOPIC: Anyone putting more thought into this and thinking it might not be the best idea? Maybe it is just me but it feels like PvP will be even more of a coin flip? 4Gate is really the only thing keeping the other Protoss honest, if that is delayed too much then there is quite a lot of room to be very greedy. Even though this will fix 4gate in PvP, I don't think this will make the match up any better... But anyways, Blizzard keeps in contact with the Pros, so hopefully what ever change they do is a smart one | ||
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Aikin
Austria532 Posts
On April 22 2011 23:38 Vessel wrote: i think some version of this might be a better way to go as well. not sure i like the idea of gateways warping in faster than warpgates. You have to consider that warpgates produce all units 10 seconds faster as gateways at the moment(Cooldown = Buildtime - 10 sec and starts with the warpin). Meaning if they give gateways something like -5 seconds warpgates will still produce faster. The thing I don´t like about the gateway productiontime buff is that they nerfed it before. Cronobusted proxy gates would be so much more trouble again. Also the 1 stalker 1 zealot push would be stronger and it already is pretty annoying against every kind of non marauder opening. I´d also prefer if warpgate research would require a twilight council but still research at the core so it doesn´t block blink/charge upgrades. This would probably require some buffs elsewhere and probably a shorter research time but at least protoss would have to commit to something to get that upgrade and not go robo or stargate and still get warpgates ultra fast. | ||
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SaturnAttack
United States125 Posts
On April 22 2011 23:49 TimeSpiral wrote: It never made sense to me that Warpgates reduced build-time, front-loaded the purchasing process, AND eliminated walking distance (with the investment of a single pylon/warp prism). It's just too good. This never made sense to me either. Maybe now Protoss players with better macro mechanics will be rewarded. I would love to see gateway vs. warp gate to be both viable options in their own right. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On April 22 2011 23:50 ChrisXIV wrote: Just make it impossible to warp into an enemy's power grid. -_- I hope they don't actually increase the research time, because it would have to be by a ridiculous amount like 60 seconds, otherwise CB makes the change irrelevant. You do realize that 1) Chronoboost is not infinite and players have to chose where to use it, it's not a spam chronoboost fest to speed things up at will 2) Only speeds up production / research by 33%. Chronoboost is not a super power like you might think it is. | ||
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MisterTea
United Kingdom1047 Posts
On April 22 2011 17:46 IntotheNorth wrote: expecting alot of Proxy gateways in PVZ early game, Toss is getting even stronger in term of making units in very early game, jesus... PvZ is getting worse we have no patch notes, we have no numbers , stop worrying about a little cheese already  | ||
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Avenok
United States34 Posts
On April 22 2011 23:39 Zaros wrote: I think you do need warpgates early in the game to deal with any cheesy play from the other races, to remove or move warpgate to other tech points will require a huge rework of protoss and i personally think its too late for a move like that. My advice to blizzard if they want to fix PvP, just dont let pylons warp in on ramps and nerf the collosus and buff other protoss areas. I don't think you need Warpgate 4-6 minutes into the game, there is absolutely no reason that you can't build a sentry from a gateway instead of a Warpgate for vdefense. Moving Warpgate to the Twilight Council will also free up the 50 gas that it costs at the beginning of the game allowing for more Sentries or an extra Stalker. The only real disadvantage of moving the upgrade is that you can't "double build" units [have a Stalker build from a gateway then turn it into a Warpgate and build another one immediately after]. Protoss will have to stay on top of their macro at the beginning of the game and plan out their builds better. I mean let's be completely honest here, all we do the same build as Protoss Gateway-> Cybernetics Core->Robotics Facility->Robotics Support Bay. No one really deviates from this build because there's honestly no reason too (unless you're going air). | ||
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BushidoSnipr
United States910 Posts
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
Man, changing the research time of warpgate will effectively destroy most of my FE builds, since I rely on that warpgate being done at that time to hold off pushes, from many different races. | ||
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Raygun
348 Posts
Without hard numbers from the testing server, this almost seems folly to discuss. I suppose I can add my own wish though. I'd love a reason to actually learn what the hotkey is to go from Warp Gate to Gateway is. I think it would be pretty cool to have the choice between the two. That ten second swap time could differentiate the men from the boys when it comes to decision making if normal Gateways had an advantage over Warp Gates in some situations. | ||
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Playguuu
United States926 Posts
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dkby
France28 Posts
The matter is they need to revamp the whole P race. It seems everything has been built around the sentry : FF can block path so P needs less mobility. FF can split army then T1 doesn't need to be as efficient as the other races'. Like T1 is weak T2 & T3 need to be strong, so there's the colossus. You can change everything you want, if you don't get rid of FF it's pointless. + WG research longer ? WG twilight at council ? P becomes very weak at the beggining, and will lose to Z/T that FE and do some harass. + Reduce unit time construction ? lots of cheese... + Nerf Colo ? P becomes far too weak. My 2 cents | ||
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MuteZephyr
Lithuania448 Posts
On April 22 2011 17:42 Cajun2k1 wrote: Didn't they already increase buildtime for gateways because they found 2 gate to be too strong? This. Yes this may or may not help PvP, but what it most certainly will do is buff protoss cheese, which is by far the race I already see the most cheese from. I'm not gonna sit here and pretend I know exactly what's gonna happen after patch, but what I expect is a lot more 2gate and proxy 2gate, as well as a certain timing emerging that is going to give terran and zerg a LOT of trouble. Not to mention, it seems to me like Blizz is assuming everybody will turn all the gateways to warpgates once they get the tech. If units will build that much faster in gateways, protoss will just keep them as such and turtle even harder to complete their deathball faster. I'm quite worried about this change if it happens. TBH feel the research time nerf would be a better option, though probably not ideal either. | ||
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PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
On April 22 2011 23:59 TheRabidDeer wrote: I dont get it, there is finally an incredibly good anti-4gate strategy out for PvP and NOW blizzard decides, "hey, lets change 4 warpgate"? Even worse, they claim it is for the sake of PvP... Man, changing the research time of warpgate will effectively destroy most of my FE builds, since I rely on that warpgate being done at that time to hold off pushes, from many different races. Are you talking about that 3-stalker build? It's not really that great, from what I've seen. AFAIK White-Ra lost to both San-Zenith and MC trying to use it against their 4-gates. It's just too dependant on sniping that first probe, which you can't guarantee. And if you make a mistake there, you're dead. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On April 22 2011 23:03 Apolo wrote: 1) It was considered the weakest race. Go read the posts of that time, check playxp QQ, perhaps you were on another planet at the time; 2) Terran did more than fine. Protoss kept being obliterated by the early pushes; 3) Zerg is the one that gains most benefits from larger maps. They are the most mobile race of all 3, and don't come with warpgate BS. It's only for gate units, and except from early rushes / 2 base all ins, toss will have colossus which are fairly slow. 4) For you sayign that i get the sense that (don't attack the zerg at all and still win) you aren't good player at all or don't understand the Protoss perspective. That's just possible if the Zerg doesn't know how to macro otherwise he'll just get crushed like a puppy with 200 supply vs 130 and a much better economy. Lol, you're pretty defensive aren't you? Protoss was never considered underpowered, there was just a week or two of Protoss QQ since they weren't doing well in leagues. There's a pretty big difference between a race being considered UP and a race considering their own race underpowered. 2.When the map-pool of every tournament was still Steppes of War and similarly short rush distance maps, yes, that was my point. 3. No it doesn't, as I explained in my post, a larger map doesn't matter when a 4-gate gets there at the exact same time. Protoss remains pretty much the same strength on large maps except it does much better against early Terran agression. Zerg does better against Terran since they benefit from larger rush distance, but asides from 2-gates Protoss is pretty much the same. 4. Lol, Cruncher took out both IdrA and Mondragon by turtling off 3-base in the TSL and rolling in with a Colossus/ Voidray ball. Literally not attacking the entire game. But yeah, IdrA and Mondragon probably can't macro, that's the problem. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On April 23 2011 00:01 PanzerKing wrote: Are you talking about that 3-stalker build? It's not really that great, from what I've seen. AFAIK White-Ra lost to both San-Zenith and MC trying to use it against their 4-gates. It's just too dependant on sniping that first probe, which you can't guarantee. And if you make a mistake there, you're dead. No, I am talking about the build that day9 showcased a bit back. Something like gate robo gate then eventually add on a 3rd gate with a later 2nd gas. It generally crushes the 4gate builds and leads you into a pretty good spot to expand after you defend it. Its great because you have the robo, so if he goes DT you can defend that... and if he goes for an FE its ok too because you are ahead on tech now so you can expand yourself or pressure. It doesnt work well against phoenix or VR rush builds though. | ||
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sanya
482 Posts
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
On April 22 2011 23:54 SaturnAttack wrote: This never made sense to me either. Maybe now Protoss players with better macro mechanics will be rewarded. I would love to see gateway vs. warp gate to be both viable options in their own right. I agree, this would be insanely cool. | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
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