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On April 23 2011 00:18 SS-guy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 00:08 TheRabidDeer wrote:On April 23 2011 00:01 PanzerKing wrote:On April 22 2011 23:59 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I dont get it, there is finally an incredibly good anti-4gate strategy out for PvP and NOW blizzard decides, "hey, lets change 4 warpgate"? Even worse, they claim it is for the sake of PvP...
Man, changing the research time of warpgate will effectively destroy most of my FE builds, since I rely on that warpgate being done at that time to hold off pushes, from many different races. Are you talking about that 3-stalker build? It's not really that great, from what I've seen. AFAIK White-Ra lost to both San-Zenith and MC trying to use it against their 4-gates. It's just too dependant on sniping that first probe, which you can't guarantee. And if you make a mistake there, you're dead. No, I am talking about the build that day9 showcased a bit back. Something like gate robo gate then eventually add on a 3rd gate with a later 2nd gas. It generally crushes the 4gate builds and leads you into a pretty good spot to expand after you defend it. Its great because you have the robo, so if he goes DT you can defend that... and if he goes for an FE its ok too because you are ahead on tech now so you can expand yourself or pressure. It doesnt work well against phoenix or VR rush builds though. that build doesnt work. in the video, the 4gate hit late, and the guy didnt micro well vs day9 edit: if there were a GOOD counter to 4gate, then you would be seeing pros do it
I have had success with it in the games I have used it in. You should have 2 zealots and an immortal with the first wave and a 2nd immortal started and 2-3 zealots able to come in soon. It starts out with you slightly behind, but having the immortal out with the zealots puts you ahead when that 2nd one pops out.
If you managed to keep the first immortal alive, you end up destroying his 4 warpgate.
Also, the pros dont have every build down, and sometimes they adapt late for tournaments when a new build is out because they arent quite comfortable with it.
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I wonder if Blizzard is also considering a change to the Colossus alongside this 4gate fix...
Either way, I'm looking forward to the next PTR. It seems that with their acknowledgement that Colossi are OP and that 4gate needs fixing, there might be some sweeping changes coming for the sons of Aiur.
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I can't honestly believe this is a good idea. The problem with PvP isn't the 4warpgate SPECIFICALLY, its the whole idea of cheesing yourself to a win before the other guy does the same. Nerfing 4warpgate would only encourage more 2gates and cannon rushes. I honestly don't know how they would solve either of these two. PvP is so broken, I don't think anything could be done to make it better.
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That'll make PvT early rushes a lot easier to defend as well. 1 gate expo no probs.
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On April 23 2011 00:19 renkin wrote:
I'm probably going to get bashed for this but instead of changing the warpgate research time, how about limiting the radius of where our units can be warped in ?
The warp-in ability would be defined by 2 arbitrary zones. The first one, well, we all already know, it's the pylon. The second one would be a large area around the nexus, let's say a little more than the size of a 2 bases area, but less than half the map. To successfully warp-in units you would have to be in those 2 zones.
That way, proxy rush warpgate is very less effective, because you would be outside of your nexus zone and the defender would get its rightfull defender advantage. However you would still have the possibility to warp-in defensively, thus Protoss not weaker early game. This won't fuck up any FE build of defensive play previously used.
The Nexus zone constraint would be generated any nexuses you build, making expanding and macro games very more rewarding since you will cover more map space.
The warp prism would be able to warp in units outside the nexus zone. That will give the warp prism play much more potential.
We could even add an ability to a unit to make the nexus zone bigger in certain place, just like the creep tumor does for the zerg creep...
Good idea! It's exactly the same as mine (although I think the radius should definitely be smaller - maybe around the same as a sensor tower's radius)
Go post on Blizzard forums please. I'm way too lazy 
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They had lengthened build times to make the 2gate not a must-have opening in PvZ. this is an issue.
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2 gate proxies in PvP will never be the same... It'll be more deadlier.
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I love this idea but with increase of build time for tier 1-1.5 units for toss is going to up the chance of 2 gate proxy which wouldn't usually be deadly now it will
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On April 23 2011 00:13 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 00:09 TimeSpiral wrote:
But I never really understood the whole permanent production buff to all gateway units that Warpgate offers. It isn't a buff. Think of warpgates as the "real" build time, with gateways nerfed to avoid ugly rush possibilities.
Spoken like a true salesman! Hahaha.
All joking aside ... the conversation is centered around the ugly 4warpgate rush. Warpgate is a permanent production buff. I don't really think that can be argued :/
What this is doing is spurring the community to have a substantiated conversation about Warpgates and their role in the game. The upgrade is way too good to be an opener and a total freebie. And of course, anytime changes to Protoss are discussed people will want to talk about Colossus. Which is a conversation that I think needs to happen, but this is not the thread for it.
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Guys they arent making gateways produce units faster than warpgates. He just said the units would take less time. It doesnt mean you can build a zealot faster in a gateway then a warpgate. They are trying to make the warpgate rushes less potent but still allow for the protoss player to live in the early game against early pushes. lol.
Does seem weird though, considering they nerfed it a few patches ago and now they are bringing it back.
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On April 23 2011 00:26 KaBoom300 wrote:
I can't honestly believe this is a good idea. The problem with PvP isn't the 4warpgate SPECIFICALLY, its the whole idea of cheesing yourself to a win before the other guy does the same. Nerfing 4warpgate would only encourage more 2gates and cannon rushes. I honestly don't know how they would solve either of these two. PvP is so broken, I don't think anything could be done to make it better.
Oh no it definitely is 4 warp gates, go watch any PvP and 95% of the time they'll both go 4 gate
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Hurray  Can't wait, don't really care what happens, anything will make things interesting xD
And hopefully they are also addressing it not just for PvP but in general, as getting warpgates isn't much of a choice but a necessity.
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On April 23 2011 00:38 Darpa wrote:
Guys they arent making gateways produce units faster than warpgates. He just said the units would take less time. It doesnt mean you can build a zealot faster in a gateway then a warpgate. They are trying to make the warpgate rushes less potent but still allow for the protoss player to live in the early game against early pushes. lol.
Does seem weird though, considering they nerfed it a few patches ago and now they are bringing it back.
The thing is they nerfed zealot build time from gateways before because of the strength of proxy gates and other cheeses, now they are just taking that nerf back and it could mess up pvp even more if not done carefully.
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The best suggestion i could possibly think of to change 4 gate pushes and warp in abuse is as follow's:
Increase the warp-in period of units the further they are away from a nexus, or even possibly make units unable to warp-in when they are too far from a nexus.
Just throwing some stuff out there, but it sure as hell beats with playing with the times of units and upgrades.
in theory it would make protoss warp-in less dominant, and maybe make protoss players such as my self think more about proxy pylon all in's
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On April 23 2011 00:16 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 23:52 Dommk wrote:Prtoss has never been considered the weakest race. Uh...Where you around October/November 2010 where the 110 page thread on why Protoss is bad appeared on TL? When there were like 6 Protoss in the GSL, being out numbered almost 3/2 to 1 by the other races? When Blizzard publicly said they felt Protoss felt a little weak (On that note: Did you know Protoss is the only race that Blizzard has openly called "weak" at one point in time?)
Agreed, but it's a needed nerf. Every non-cheese TvP build revolves around dealing with the ridiculous number of protoss allins. Right now protoss is strong in late game because their ability to turtle with FFs and get cost efficient tech (many colossi, full gateway upgrades) but they are ALSO strong with allins. No race should have super threatening offense while having insane turtle ability (FFs, warpin to stop drops).
In other words, the builds terrans design to account for allins put them behind a safe economic protoss. so either terrans open safe and end up losing in the late game if protoss does not allin, or open risky and lose in early game if protoss allins. On the other side, protoss can *safely* take a fast expansion to be ahead/even with the terran (1 gate FE or 3 gate pressure) or allin to win the game outright if the terran is not super defensive.
Don't even understand how you can complain about Protoss all-ins when Terran has almost five times the amount of all-ins vs Protoss. What does Protoss actually have right now in terms of all-ins? Voidray/Stalker or Voidray/Zealot all-in that hits at 6mins? 4Gate? Blink Stalkers (does anyone actually lose to this as Terran?)? I guess if you really want to stretch it, 3gate Robo, even though that is laughable to hold.... What about two base? 5/6 Gate...and..that is about it. So what, 5 all-ins, two of which are terrible and never used, ever. Now what do you have in TvP? Lets do 1base: Banshee/Marine/SCV, Banshee/Thor/Marine/SCV, Thor Rush, Thor rush w/ Stim and/or Strike cannon, Thor Rush with multiple thors, Banshee/Raven/Marine/SCV, 2rax SCV,5rax, 3rax contain, Banshee/Tank/Raven SCV, Marauder/Hellion/SCV, Marauder/Raven/Marine/SCV, 3rax/SCV, Raven/Marine/Tank/SCV, Thor/Blue flame Hellion/SCV, Hellion/Banshee/Marine/SCV, Marine/Tank/SCV with Bunkers Tell me if I missed something--pretty much any composition of units off 1base with Marine/SCV support and almost all of them require a completely different reaction and unit composition to beat some of which are near impossible to stop in close positions. The reason people do aggressive 3gate is because half 70% of Terran all-ins are super greedy early in the game and you can straight up kill a Terran who is cutting too many corners to get some asburd unit composition to attack at like the 9min. If you 1gate expo on most maps it is almost an instant loss to 80% of those builds--half of them even work on maps as big as Tal'Darim/Terminus or Crevasse, hell even MKP used them and stommped oGsMC with little effort, it is laughable to say that Protoss can expo safely. 1Gate expo is more of a risk than 1rax Expo, 2gate Robo puts you just as behind against a Terran doing a 1rax Expo. There are even non-all ins from Terran that straight up kill 1gate expo, like the build plot prime did 2rax Reacot/Techlab Marine/Marauder timing before the Nexus is finished. Many of the 1 base terran builds you mentioned are either news to me or you are talking completely out your ass. For example, Thor/Banshee/SCV? WHAT? I've watched countless hours of streams at top level, played countless hours myself at or near top level, and kept up with most tournaments and have never seen this build even attempted (although it sounds interesting, I question whether you'd have the gas to do this). If you are having trouble against 2 rax marines I don't know what to say. Ever heard of stalker micro and force fields? The various (viable) 1/1/1 allins you mentioned, whether they include thors or hellions, banshees or medivacs, etc, can be stopped easily by protoss or we would see terrans actually doing them more than one out of 10 games, unlike protoss who do some kind of allin at least 1/3 of games if not more. This should tell you a lot about which is more effective. What allins/cheese do protoss have you say? Mainly, 3 gate stargate, 4 gate, DT rush, 1 base colossus, proxy 1 gate, proxy 2 gate (the last two are in a different category, similar to your example of 2 rax marines). As you mentioned 3 gate robo is questionable. These are all difficult to hold unless you have exactly the right defense in place, difficulty depending on maps and positions. Terran does not have force field to keep them completely safe while they get defense ready. 1 gate FE is completely safe for protoss against something like 2 rax/3 rax addons if you micro well. If you get outmicroed, then yes, you'll die. Now if terran does one of the (viable) allins you mentioned, yes your natural will die, but you can definitely build up enough units to stomp the attack before your main is threatened, and since the attack is allin you win the game if you are left alive.
What? The Thor/Banshee/SCV build was posted on the strategy section, the guy posting it was something like 18-0 against Protoss, Drewbie even endorsed it.
The way you respond to 2rax, it is so ridiculous, you act as if it is easy to hold, White-ra was streaming two days ago and he lost to the a guy doing the same 2/3rax SCV all-in three times in a row....
Then you talk about pulling shit out of my ass when you bring these ridiculous statistics about Protoss going all-in 1/3 of their games and Terran only doing it a 1/10th of theirs.. I don't even know what to say to this. When was the last time you saw a Protoss all-in with a 4gate? MKP/MVP pretty much all-in Protoss every BO3, MKP did some kind of all-in virtually every game against MC. 3Gate Voidray is the only all-in you ever see from Toss because it is the only all-in that is actually viable, and in the GSL 3gate Voidray has been held off more times than it has been successful. Proxy gate only works on two player maps where you can build the gateway inside their base, if it isn't an inbase gateway then you shouldn't have a hard time holding it off.
The fact that you even mention 1bae Colossus and 3gate robo being difficult to hold me face palm---tell me, when was the last time you have actually seen that work in a competitive game? I haven't seen a 1base Colossus all-in in over 5months! DT rush is not an all-in either, even in cases where the Terran hard counter it (eg: Boxers game vs a Protoss player) you can establish enough map control, though obviously it isn't stable, especially if the Terran is doing some raven all-in.
2Rax/3Rax all-ins cannot be held if done properly, EG: Watch PlotPrime vs MC, there was no possible way MC could hold the 2Rax all-in he did. 3Rax hits later, but 3Rax SCV on smaller maps or close position Tal'Darim kills 1gate expo, Heck, even theBestFou did it against huk everytime he saw a 1gate expo and even on cross position Typhon it killed him (whilst HuK was laddering)
Fact of the matter is, 3Gate/Stargate, and 4gate are completely holdable with a 1rax expand, and it has been held off more times in the GSL than it has been succesful--however 1gate expo cannot hold certain types of 2rax/3rax and Banshee/Raven or Thor builds at all, you are at in incredible disadvantage if you compare how much easier it is for 1rax to hold off a 3gate/stargate. Even Tyler said that MC did risky builds and got punished, he said 1gate expo is too risky.
It is considered standard play to be able to hold a 4gate with 1rax Expo, I think it was MyMCloud saying it, but in one of the recent tournaments he was talking about in base 14CC and how you could hold off 4gate pretty easily but lose to 3gate contain, there was even a thread in the strategy forum where Jinro said you can hold off 4gate with proper bunker positioning with 14CC in natural. Even 3Gate/Stargate builds executed by players like oGsMC have looked awful against a competent terran, but Terran all-ins vs Protoss who 1gate expand almost always work, MVP,Plot, MKP and SuperNova are currently undefeated with their Banshee/Tank all-ins against Protoss--and these aren't push over Protoss players (oGsMc,Genius,San,HuK and I can't remember who was on the receiving end of SuperNovas one--i think it was Alicia). Terran have a significantly easier time holding Protoss 1base all-ins (all two of them) than Protoss do holding Terran all-ins.
With the warpgate change, there is a possibility to completely remove any form of workable 1base all-ins from Protoss against Terran (against Zerg it is a different story due to how drones/production share)...which isn't a bad thing IMO, but to say that Terran of all races have a hard time dealing with Protoss all-ins I find ridiculous.
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I really dont see how this is going to change anything with PvP.
Increased research of warp gate to 10 seconds (Lets imagine that).
Decreased build time for tier 1 units in gateways (3 seconds)
That only means we will be building more units outta gateways for 10 seconds longer before warp. It will not change anything for PvP which i guess is Blizzards main reason for this change.
But it will affect everything else, proxy rush from protoss will be alot faster (Depends on the decreased time change).
I really dont see the point of this change ..........
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I'm a bit worried, but at the same time really glad that it will change.
I really really hate PvP. I'm having a lot of fun at the game in every matchup, except PvP, because since the beta it's the same story again and again.
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They really need to be careful, being able to shut down a 15 hatch so easily, when it's so hard to shut down a forge FE on certain maps would be pretty BS. Also does this mean that Infestors will be getting looked at for ZvZ, the buff to them completely broke ZvZ into a game of 'Who has more fungals?'
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tyCe> I didn't catch your 1st post earlier, it's good to see i'm not the only one who thought about that ( or maybe we are both crazy ). The sensor tower radius seems a good size to me.
Posted on blizz forum edited with your idea.
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On April 22 2011 17:46 dezi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 17:39 AndAgain wrote:
Wait a sec, so will gateways now have faster build times than warpgate cooldowns? I think the might decrease the no-warp-time by 5sec each or sth. like this. I would prefer to see the warp technology removed and the up only giving the decreased buildtimes. No more off pylon warpin (maybe only allow this at warp prisms > makes them so much more usefull) and one could also give the Amulet back to the Toss (no instant storms cause you now have to build "normal").
Get rid of warp gates and you might as well call the race terran. While you're at it get rid of larva, and we can all play terrancraft. The point of protoss and zerg is to have different mechanics. Protoss can warp in, not queue up units like a barracks. Or if you want to get rid of warp gates, give protoss mules and call them terran and have them make marines. Just saying 
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EPT
