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On April 23 2011 00:27 tyCe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 00:19 renkin wrote:
I'm probably going to get bashed for this but instead of changing the warpgate research time, how about limiting the radius of where our units can be warped in ?
The warp-in ability would be defined by 2 arbitrary zones. The first one, well, we all already know, it's the pylon. The second one would be a large area around the nexus, let's say a little more than the size of a 2 bases area, but less than half the map. To successfully warp-in units you would have to be in those 2 zones.
That way, proxy rush warpgate is very less effective, because you would be outside of your nexus zone and the defender would get its rightfull defender advantage. However you would still have the possibility to warp-in defensively, thus Protoss not weaker early game. This won't fuck up any FE build of defensive play previously used.
The Nexus zone constraint would be generated any nexuses you build, making expanding and macro games very more rewarding since you will cover more map space.
The warp prism would be able to warp in units outside the nexus zone. That will give the warp prism play much more potential.
We could even add an ability to a unit to make the nexus zone bigger in certain place, just like the creep tumor does for the zerg creep... Good idea! It's exactly the same as mine (although I think the radius should definitely be smaller - maybe around the same as a sensor tower's radius) Go post on Blizzard forums please. I'm way too lazy 
Instead of entirely constraining warp-ins, maybe they could significantly increase the time it takes for warpgate units to actually warp-in (what is now, like 5 seconds? maybe increase that to 10 when outside of the nexus zone?), maybe make them even more susceptible to damage while warping in...
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On April 23 2011 00:51 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 00:27 tyCe wrote:On April 23 2011 00:19 renkin wrote:
I'm probably going to get bashed for this but instead of changing the warpgate research time, how about limiting the radius of where our units can be warped in ?
The warp-in ability would be defined by 2 arbitrary zones. The first one, well, we all already know, it's the pylon. The second one would be a large area around the nexus, let's say a little more than the size of a 2 bases area, but less than half the map. To successfully warp-in units you would have to be in those 2 zones.
That way, proxy rush warpgate is very less effective, because you would be outside of your nexus zone and the defender would get its rightfull defender advantage. However you would still have the possibility to warp-in defensively, thus Protoss not weaker early game. This won't fuck up any FE build of defensive play previously used.
The Nexus zone constraint would be generated any nexuses you build, making expanding and macro games very more rewarding since you will cover more map space.
The warp prism would be able to warp in units outside the nexus zone. That will give the warp prism play much more potential.
We could even add an ability to a unit to make the nexus zone bigger in certain place, just like the creep tumor does for the zerg creep... Good idea! It's exactly the same as mine (although I think the radius should definitely be smaller - maybe around the same as a sensor tower's radius) Go post on Blizzard forums please. I'm way too lazy Instead of entirely constraining warp-ins, maybe they could significantly increase the time it takes for warpgate units to actually warp-in (what is now, like 5 seconds? maybe increase that to 10 when outside of the nexus zone?), maybe make them even more susceptible to damage while warping in...
The current consensus seems to be that units warping in do not take ANY additional damage, I'd like them to at least try fix this before they significantly change the warp gate timing.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=194526
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On April 23 2011 00:47 Avean wrote:
I really dont see how this is going to change anything with PvP.
Increased research of warp gate to 10 seconds (Lets imagine that).
Decreased build time for tier 1 units in gateways (3 seconds)
That only means we will be building more units outta gateways for 10 seconds longer before warp. It will not change anything for PvP which i guess is Blizzards main reason for this change.
But it will affect everything else, proxy rush from protoss will be alot faster (Depends on the decreased time change).
I really dont see the point of this change ..........
I will explain how increasing research time of WG and decreased production of gate units would fix 4gate since many seem not to understand:
1) Since 4 gates can't be supported by 1 base (only 3 and barely), if the 4 gater keeps waiting for the WG to make units he will be behind in unit count for a great amount of time, and the no 4gater can take advantage of that, namely by getting map control. Imagine the 3 stalker build, becomes the 5 stalker build, and the WG is even later and you see how harder it will be to 4gate in that situation.
2) If by miracle the 4 gater has map control, and attempts to put pylons in your base to warp zealots above ground, you will have enough units to destroy them.
3) If the 4gater wants to keep map control, he will have to keep producing units while waiting for WG and in that case he won't be able to support 4 gates, not to mention he wasted 150min on a gate while the other on a unit / tech so in fact 3 gate becomes better. But in that case it's also easier to transition into something else because the other guys units will have to travel the map and you will indeed have a defenders advantage until WG finishes which will be later. That would give more time to tech making it more viable.
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On April 23 2011 00:47 Avean wrote:
I really dont see how this is going to change anything with PvP.
Increased research of warp gate to 10 seconds (Lets imagine that).
Decreased build time for tier 1 units in gateways (3 seconds)
That only means we will be building more units outta gateways for 10 seconds longer before warp. It will not change anything for PvP which i guess is Blizzards main reason for this change.
But it will affect everything else, proxy rush from protoss will be alot faster (Depends on the decreased time change).
I really dont see the point of this change ..........
Blizzard isn't thinking obviously as with most blizzard patches. FYI, there is no such thing as strategy in pvp. Cool, nerf 4 gate. Then we can move on to strategic mass colossus into who has more wins the game, or we can do strategic cannon rush or in light of soon to be gateway buff, strategic proxy gate. PvP is going to be so fun, I can feel it already. Leave the 4 gate the way it is, 4 gate requires more skill than cannon rush and proxy gate.
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Although this may solve the 4 gating problem I dislike this idea a lot. Defending 4 gate has almost been discovered such as the 3 stalker chorno, and kcdc build I heard of. This would change the meta game too much and all the time invested in defending the 4 gate will be wasted because then 4 gate will virtually obsolete. Although an interesting idea and should definitely be tested,
I believe it best just to keep it how it is. Even if 4 gate is solved, it doesn't change the fact that it will lead to a stupid collossi war...which is even stupider imo. PvP is just a really bad match up. They need to make storm some how viable in PvP then i'd say it might become a more interesting match up.
TLDR: Fixing 4 gate with this new idea will only mess up the meta game completely and will not address the core problem of pvp leading to a silly who has more collosi war :/
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i like pvp the way it is..
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Guess Blizzard got fed up by people (like me) 4-5 warpgating themselfs to master.
Who would had thought blizzard disliked a build that includes 5 of the same buildings which counters kills everything during the first 15 minutes of the game.
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i hope they patch it so that 4 gate is still a good strat just not the only one. i really don't want to see 50 colossus war games in a row.
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On April 23 2011 00:50 Archon96 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 17:46 dezi wrote:On April 22 2011 17:39 AndAgain wrote:
Wait a sec, so will gateways now have faster build times than warpgate cooldowns? I think the might decrease the no-warp-time by 5sec each or sth. like this. I would prefer to see the warp technology removed and the up only giving the decreased buildtimes. No more off pylon warpin (maybe only allow this at warp prisms > makes them so much more usefull) and one could also give the Amulet back to the Toss (no instant storms cause you now have to build "normal"). Get rid of warp gates and you might as well call the race terran. While you're at it get rid of larva, and we can all play terrancraft. The point of protoss and zerg is to have different mechanics. Protoss can warp in, not queue up units like a barracks. Or if you want to get rid of warp gates, give protoss mules and call them terran and have them make marines. Just saying 
You ever play a little game called broodwar?
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This is a step in the right direction. Good job blizzard!
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On April 23 2011 01:05 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
i hope they patch it so that 4 gate is still a good strat just not the only one. i really don't want to see 50 colossus war games in a row.
QFT. Almost every PvP ends up a Robo-race anyways. I wouldn't mind seeing templars being used like in BW.
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On April 23 2011 00:51 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 00:27 tyCe wrote:On April 23 2011 00:19 renkin wrote:
I'm probably going to get bashed for this but instead of changing the warpgate research time, how about limiting the radius of where our units can be warped in ?
The warp-in ability would be defined by 2 arbitrary zones. The first one, well, we all already know, it's the pylon. The second one would be a large area around the nexus, let's say a little more than the size of a 2 bases area, but less than half the map. To successfully warp-in units you would have to be in those 2 zones.
That way, proxy rush warpgate is very less effective, because you would be outside of your nexus zone and the defender would get its rightfull defender advantage. However you would still have the possibility to warp-in defensively, thus Protoss not weaker early game. This won't fuck up any FE build of defensive play previously used.
The Nexus zone constraint would be generated any nexuses you build, making expanding and macro games very more rewarding since you will cover more map space.
The warp prism would be able to warp in units outside the nexus zone. That will give the warp prism play much more potential.
We could even add an ability to a unit to make the nexus zone bigger in certain place, just like the creep tumor does for the zerg creep... Good idea! It's exactly the same as mine (although I think the radius should definitely be smaller - maybe around the same as a sensor tower's radius) Go post on Blizzard forums please. I'm way too lazy Instead of entirely constraining warp-ins, maybe they could significantly increase the time it takes for warpgate units to actually warp-in (what is now, like 5 seconds? maybe increase that to 10 when outside of the nexus zone?), maybe make them even more susceptible to damage while warping in...
I was thinking something along this line, but not to increase the warp-in time.
Increasing warp in time would make toss more vurnerable to medivac drops.
The problem with warpgate technology as it is, is that the protoss can get a full volley of units very quickly after completing gateways/units. This can be prevented by increasing the time it takes a gateway to transition into a warp gate..
It takes 10 seconds now, but if that time is increased to 25/30 seconds or so, the 'extra' volley of units can be nullified.
I have no idea how this would change the other match-ups though.
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I dont really like this change.
Perhaps in PvP, this change will be for the better but I dont see how it won't affect other races.
Sometimes, you can just get enough units from warpgate to hold off rushes. And despite gateway unit's construction will be decreased in time, you still will not be able to get as many units out.
Then a lot of people will say to wall off but then what about massive ramps such as scrap station.
This will force a forge out to get cannons. But even in this scenario, it will also decrease the amount of units you have.
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On April 23 2011 01:06 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 00:50 Archon96 wrote:On April 22 2011 17:46 dezi wrote:On April 22 2011 17:39 AndAgain wrote:
Wait a sec, so will gateways now have faster build times than warpgate cooldowns? I think the might decrease the no-warp-time by 5sec each or sth. like this. I would prefer to see the warp technology removed and the up only giving the decreased buildtimes. No more off pylon warpin (maybe only allow this at warp prisms > makes them so much more usefull) and one could also give the Amulet back to the Toss (no instant storms cause you now have to build "normal"). Get rid of warp gates and you might as well call the race terran. While you're at it get rid of larva, and we can all play terrancraft. The point of protoss and zerg is to have different mechanics. Protoss can warp in, not queue up units like a barracks. Or if you want to get rid of warp gates, give protoss mules and call them terran and have them make marines. Just saying You ever play a little game called broodwar?
You ever played a little game called Starcraft 2 and not Starcraft Brood War ?
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On April 23 2011 00:51 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 00:27 tyCe wrote:On April 23 2011 00:19 renkin wrote:
I'm probably going to get bashed for this but instead of changing the warpgate research time, how about limiting the radius of where our units can be warped in ?
The warp-in ability would be defined by 2 arbitrary zones. The first one, well, we all already know, it's the pylon. The second one would be a large area around the nexus, let's say a little more than the size of a 2 bases area, but less than half the map. To successfully warp-in units you would have to be in those 2 zones.
That way, proxy rush warpgate is very less effective, because you would be outside of your nexus zone and the defender would get its rightfull defender advantage. However you would still have the possibility to warp-in defensively, thus Protoss not weaker early game. This won't fuck up any FE build of defensive play previously used.
The Nexus zone constraint would be generated any nexuses you build, making expanding and macro games very more rewarding since you will cover more map space.
The warp prism would be able to warp in units outside the nexus zone. That will give the warp prism play much more potential.
We could even add an ability to a unit to make the nexus zone bigger in certain place, just like the creep tumor does for the zerg creep... Good idea! It's exactly the same as mine (although I think the radius should definitely be smaller - maybe around the same as a sensor tower's radius) Go post on Blizzard forums please. I'm way too lazy Instead of entirely constraining warp-ins, maybe they could significantly increase the time it takes for warpgate units to actually warp-in (what is now, like 5 seconds? maybe increase that to 10 when outside of the nexus zone?), maybe make them even more susceptible to damage while warping in...
In that case I would even add a health handicap, for exemple 70 % shields because if it takes longer to produces units the 4gater will be able to afford the push longer.
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lul wat ?
This sounds like I'm going to go back to my original noob SC BW PvZ opening :D
3 gates Zealots into Cy-Core + Forge into expo into 8 gates "GG" :D
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Wow, huge thread!
In my opinion, PvP 4-gate vs 4-gate is the most ridiculous thing ever. I remember watching a game where it has become so "standard" that the protoss didn't even hide the fact that they were going 4-gate.
My solution would be to give a reduced damage modifier to units on the high ground. This would make a defensive 4-gate > offensive 4-gate.
Another suggestion would be to make the WP research decrease the unit building times for gateways and not WPs. This would force protosses to choose between gateways or WPs.
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On April 22 2011 17:39 Elefanto wrote:
but what happens then to the highly entertaining, difficult to pull off 4 gate rush strategy?
i don't want to lose that tool, and i guess no spectator either =(
what? difficult to pull off? im sorry but this makes me laugh
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It's been mentioned several times already, but the only fix necessary is to remove warp-in above forcefields on the ramp. This will completely fix PvP 4 gate. I don't know why they are considering a huge change like this ... a change that will alter a lot of matchups and create lots more problems they will need to patch again.
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On April 23 2011 00:50 Archon96 wrote:Get rid of warp gates and you might as well call the race terran. While you're at it get rid of larva, and we can all play terrancraft. The point of protoss and zerg is to have different mechanics. Protoss can warp in, not queue up units like a barracks. Or if you want to get rid of warp gates, give protoss mules and call them terran and have them make marines. Just saying
Even without warpgate Protoss are still different from the other races. Protoss still warps in buildings, as in the probes doesn'tr actually sit around and builds them. They power their structures with pylon and they have chronoboost to speed up their production. Besides the warpgate doesn't include every protoss unit. So if they did get rid of warpagates (which they won't) Protoss still would be fine.
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EPT
