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On April 22 2011 23:55 Avenok wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 23:39 Zaros wrote:
I think you do need warpgates early in the game to deal with any cheesy play from the other races, to remove or move warpgate to other tech points will require a huge rework of protoss and i personally think its too late for a move like that.
My advice to blizzard if they want to fix PvP, just dont let pylons warp in on ramps and nerf the collosus and buff other protoss areas. I don't think you need Warpgate 4-6 minutes into the game, there is absolutely no reason that you can't build a sentry from a gateway instead of a Warpgate for vdefense. Moving Warpgate to the Twilight Council will also free up the 50 gas that it costs at the beginning of the game allowing for more Sentries or an extra Stalker. The only real disadvantage of moving the upgrade is that you can't "double build" units [have a Stalker build from a gateway then turn it into a Warpgate and build another one immediately after]. Protoss will have to stay on top of their macro at the beginning of the game and plan out their builds better. I mean let's be completely honest here, all we do the same build as Protoss Gateway-> Cybernetics Core->Robotics Facility->Robotics Support Bay. No one really deviates from this build because there's honestly no reason too (unless you're going air).
I've also been thinking along these lines.
Make Warpgate research unlocked at the Cyber-core with Twilight Council.
But I never really understood the whole permanent production buff to all gateway units that Warpgate offers.
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i think they will nerf build time for sentury and stalkers... but not for zealots....i think this will be good change....i also think siege tanks need buff stimpack nerf and colloss nerf and this game will be good to play and whatch....
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I highly doubt they're going to make Gateways build units faster than WGs. They're certainly going to chip into the current five-second unit reduction that WG tech gives, and maybe even it out altogether; but make Gateways actually better than WGs? It's never going to happen, folks.
Honestly, I don't get all the WG-hate/Gateway love around here. Gateways are utterly boring compared to WGs; they're boring to watch, they're boring to play with. WGs give Protoss a twist of uniqueness that makes them fun to watch and play with; Gateways are simply the exact same building mechanics as a Barracks/Factory in a prettier shell. Why any Protoss player would WANT to go back to essentially building like a Terran player throughout the game is beyond me (and I say this as a Protoss player in both SC1 and 2).
Obviously, though, WG tech causes lots of problems early game; so it needs to be delayed/nerfed early game where it poses a problem. And equalizing Gateway/WG tech by nerfing WG tech availability and buffing Gateway build times might go a long way towards doing that.
Anyway, I'm glad that Blizzard are actively working on something. Kudos to them...
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On April 23 2011 00:09 TimeSpiral wrote:
But I never really understood the whole permanent production buff to all gateway units that Warpgate offers.
It isn't a buff. Think of warpgates as the "real" build time, with gateways nerfed to avoid ugly rush possibilities.
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Canada13389 Posts
On April 22 2011 23:59 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I dont get it, there is finally an incredibly good anti-4gate strategy out for PvP and NOW blizzard decides, "hey, lets change 4 warpgate"? Even worse, they claim it is for the sake of PvP...
Man, changing the research time of warpgate will effectively destroy most of my FE builds, since I rely on that warpgate being done at that time to hold off pushes, from many different races.
This is actually a very good point. I mean the speed at which we get the units from warp gates is to a certain extent necessary to hold some forms of aggression and to reduce gateway build times to match means it would take 25 seconds to build the first zealot and every one thereafter. Thats fast and hurts the other races a little too much in the early game in my opinion especially if chronoboost is saved early on to get two or three zealots out on rally very quickly.
At the same time, we will have responses to hatch first other than cannons now but im not sure if thats really a good thing. :/
I think we will need to wait and see how Bliz decides to handle this. Perhaps warp cooldowns will be increased, along with gateway build times decreased slightly which will help meet in the middle. For example all warped units take 10 seconds longer cooldown, and all gateway non warp units get 5 seconds faster. Or dont change the speed and buff the gateway units a little more than they currently are (1 armour to start stalkers for example)
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I hope that they will nerf colossi...Colossi battles are far more boring than 4 gate....
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Didn't they nerf zealot build time because zeal rushes were too strong ?
Why would they decrease it again ?
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On April 22 2011 23:52 Dommk wrote:Uh...Where you around October/November 2010 where the 110 page thread on why Protoss is bad appeared on TL? When there were like 6 Protoss in the GSL, being out numbered almost 3/2 to 1 by the other races? When Blizzard publicly said they felt Protoss felt a little weak (On that note: Did you know Protoss is the only race that Blizzard has openly called "weak" at one point in time?) Show nested quote +
Agreed, but it's a needed nerf. Every non-cheese TvP build revolves around dealing with the ridiculous number of protoss allins. Right now protoss is strong in late game because their ability to turtle with FFs and get cost efficient tech (many colossi, full gateway upgrades) but they are ALSO strong with allins. No race should have super threatening offense while having insane turtle ability (FFs, warpin to stop drops).
In other words, the builds terrans design to account for allins put them behind a safe economic protoss. so either terrans open safe and end up losing in the late game if protoss does not allin, or open risky and lose in early game if protoss allins. On the other side, protoss can *safely* take a fast expansion to be ahead/even with the terran (1 gate FE or 3 gate pressure) or allin to win the game outright if the terran is not super defensive.
Don't even understand how you can complain about Protoss all-ins when Terran has almost five times the amount of all-ins vs Protoss. What does Protoss actually have right now in terms of all-ins? Voidray/Stalker or Voidray/Zealot all-in that hits at 6mins? 4Gate? Blink Stalkers (does anyone actually lose to this as Terran?)? I guess if you really want to stretch it, 3gate Robo, even though that is laughable to hold.... What about two base? 5/6 Gate...and..that is about it. So what, 5 all-ins, two of which are terrible and never used, ever. Now what do you have in TvP? Lets do 1base: Banshee/Marine/SCV, Banshee/Thor/Marine/SCV, Thor Rush, Thor rush w/ Stim and/or Strike cannon, Thor Rush with multiple thors, Banshee/Raven/Marine/SCV, 2rax SCV,5rax, 3rax contain, Banshee/Tank/Raven SCV, Marauder/Hellion/SCV, Marauder/Raven/Marine/SCV, 3rax/SCV, Raven/Marine/Tank/SCV, Thor/Blue flame Hellion/SCV, Hellion/Banshee/Marine/SCV, Marine/Tank/SCV with Bunkers Tell me if I missed something--pretty much any composition of units off 1base with Marine/SCV support and almost all of them require a completely different reaction and unit composition to beat some of which are near impossible to stop in close positions. The reason people do aggressive 3gate is because half 70% of Terran all-ins are super greedy early in the game and you can straight up kill a Terran who is cutting too many corners to get some asburd unit composition to attack at like the 9min. If you 1gate expo on most maps it is almost an instant loss to 80% of those builds--half of them even work on maps as big as Tal'Darim/Terminus or Crevasse, hell even MKP used them and stommped oGsMC with little effort, it is laughable to say that Protoss can expo safely. 1Gate expo is more of a risk than 1rax Expo, 2gate Robo puts you just as behind against a Terran doing a 1rax Expo. There are even non-all ins from Terran that straight up kill 1gate expo, like the build plot prime did 2rax Reacot/Techlab Marine/Marauder timing before the Nexus is finished.
Many of the 1 base terran builds you mentioned are either news to me or you are talking completely out your ass. For example, Thor/Banshee/SCV? WHAT? I've watched countless hours of streams at top level, played countless hours myself at or near top level, and kept up with most tournaments and have never seen this build even attempted (although it sounds interesting, I question whether you'd have the gas to do this).
If you are having trouble against 2 rax marines I don't know what to say. Ever heard of stalker micro and force fields?
The various (viable) 1/1/1 allins you mentioned, whether they include thors or hellions, banshees or medivacs, etc, can be stopped easily by protoss or we would see terrans actually doing them more than one out of 10 games, unlike protoss who do some kind of allin at least 1/3 of games if not more. This should tell you a lot about which is more effective.
What allins/cheese do protoss have you say? Mainly, 3 gate stargate, 4 gate, DT rush, 1 base colossus, proxy 1 gate, proxy 2 gate (the last two are in a different category, similar to your example of 2 rax marines). As you mentioned 3 gate robo is questionable. These are all difficult to hold unless you have exactly the right defense in place, difficulty depending on maps and positions. Terran does not have force field to keep them completely safe while they get defense ready.
1 gate FE is completely safe for protoss against something like 2 rax/3 rax addons if you micro well. If you get outmicroed, then yes, you'll die. Now if terran does one of the (viable) allins you mentioned, yes your natural will die, but you can definitely build up enough units to stomp the attack before your main is threatened, and since the attack is allin you win the game if you are left alive.
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As far as i can see their is no talk of changing WG unit cooldown just the WG research cooldown (from blizz atleast) and i dont think alot of people got this point als ohow is it balanced that to have a unit build then spawn AT YOUR GATEWAY takes 40+ seconds whilst having it appear anywere on the map takes 30ish seconds. Ok so it is vulnerable when warping in but that is only a situational thing (dont warp in next to your opponents army unless it cant be avoided).
Seems like alot of people got the wrong idea on this and went way overboard on their reaction to this.
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i was thinking it would be easier just to make it impossible to warp units in on a ramp, however im really looking forward to patch 1.4 
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I'm a fan of this. I stick with gateways for a fair bit longer than most; almost never chrono my WG research, but I'll chrono hallu >_> BW habits die hard, I guess.
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On April 23 2011 00:08 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 00:01 PanzerKing wrote:On April 22 2011 23:59 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I dont get it, there is finally an incredibly good anti-4gate strategy out for PvP and NOW blizzard decides, "hey, lets change 4 warpgate"? Even worse, they claim it is for the sake of PvP...
Man, changing the research time of warpgate will effectively destroy most of my FE builds, since I rely on that warpgate being done at that time to hold off pushes, from many different races. Are you talking about that 3-stalker build? It's not really that great, from what I've seen. AFAIK White-Ra lost to both San-Zenith and MC trying to use it against their 4-gates. It's just too dependant on sniping that first probe, which you can't guarantee. And if you make a mistake there, you're dead. No, I am talking about the build that day9 showcased a bit back. Something like gate robo gate then eventually add on a 3rd gate with a later 2nd gas. It generally crushes the 4gate builds and leads you into a pretty good spot to expand after you defend it. Its great because you have the robo, so if he goes DT you can defend that... and if he goes for an FE its ok too because you are ahead on tech now so you can expand yourself or pressure. It doesnt work well against phoenix or VR rush builds though.
that build doesnt work.
in the video, the 4gate hit late, and the guy didnt micro well vs day9
edit: if there were a GOOD counter to 4gate, then you would be seeing pros do it
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On April 23 2011 00:01 MuteZephyr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2011 17:42 Cajun2k1 wrote:
Didn't they already increase buildtime for gateways because they found 2 gate to be too strong? This. Yes this may or may not help PvP, but what it most certainly will do is buff protoss cheese, which is by far the race I already see the most cheese from. I'm not gonna sit here and pretend I know exactly what's gonna happen after patch, but what I expect is a lot more 2gate and proxy 2gate, as well as a certain timing emerging that is going to give terran and zerg a LOT of trouble. Not to mention, it seems to me like Blizz is assuming everybody will turn all the gateways to warpgates once they get the tech. If units will build that much faster in gateways, protoss will just keep them as such and turtle even harder to complete their deathball faster. I'm quite worried about this change if it happens. TBH feel the research time nerf would be a better option, though probably not ideal either.
I think it's not that hard to balance. For example, make two upgrades in the cybercore :
- first upgrade like the warpgate research, it gives you the units as fast as the warpgate research but from normal gateways. There will be no warp in in early game and no change in the early game in others match up (units at the same rate as actual warpgate) .
-second upgrade, from twilight council warp gate research, give you warp in units anywhere where there is a pylone slower than the normal gateway upgraded but if you take the distance travel where you want to warp it is faster.
I don't think it's that hard to balance they just have to think about it
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I'm probably going to get bashed for this but instead of changing the warpgate research time, how about limiting the radius of where our units can be warped in ?
The warp-in ability would be defined by 2 arbitrary zones. The first one, well, we all already know, it's the pylon. The second one would be a large area around the nexus, let's say a little more than the size of a 2 bases area, but less than half the map. To successfully warp-in units you would have to be in those 2 zones.
That way, proxy rush warpgate is very less effective, because you would be outside of your nexus zone and the defender would get its rightfull defender advantage. However you would still have the possibility to warp-in defensively, thus Protoss not weaker early game. This won't fuck up any FE build of defensive play previously used.
The Nexus zone constraint would be generated any nexuses you build, making expanding and macro games very more rewarding since you will cover more map space.
The warp prism would be able to warp in units outside the nexus zone. That will give the warp prism play much more potential.
We could even add an ability to a unit to make the nexus zone bigger in certain place, just like the creep tumor does for the zerg creep...
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Hmm... warpgates were also very useful in defending 4gate, as you could warp units exactly where you needed them. Here's to hoping they get it right!
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surprisingly that in the patch 1.3, stim nerfed from 140s to 170s, no one complain about it, it actually huge for the professional T players, they just deal with it and change their strategy like early combat shield and late stim. Dont know why P will get crushed after warp tech nerf. Probably low level players complaining.
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Gate robo gate is trash, even on ramps. Without ramps it's 4gate all the way.
People are drawing way too many conclusions from that post. He just mentions some ideas they're considering, nothing is at all definite. The only notable part is that they plan on addressing it.
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I'm not really convinced there's a problem with 4gate in PvP. I'm also worried about the lack of warp gate tech early in the game, just because a lot of really good rushes come before protoss gets warpgate tech. And now that timing is going to be extended it sounds like.
Yes it's strong, but i've seen 4gate blink and 3gate robo stuff hold off 4gate on a regular basis.
It's difficult to get off one-base but we see that too in maybe 33% of PvP's.
It's not nearly as cool as reaver/dragoon, but that's because there's no reaver.
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On April 23 2011 00:11 Captain Peabody wrote:
I highly doubt they're going to make Gateways build units faster than WGs. They're certainly going to chip into the current five-second unit reduction that WG tech gives, and maybe even it out altogether; but make Gateways actually better than WGs? It's never going to happen, folks.
Honestly, I don't get all the WG-hate/Gateway love around here. Gateways are utterly boring compared to WGs; they're boring to watch, they're boring to play with. WGs give Protoss a twist of uniqueness that makes them fun to watch and play with; Gateways are simply the exact same building mechanics as a Barracks/Factory in a prettier shell. Why any Protoss player would WANT to go back to essentially building like a Terran player throughout the game is beyond me (and I say this as a Protoss player in both SC1 and 2).
Obviously, though, WG tech causes lots of problems early game; so it needs to be delayed/nerfed early game where it poses a problem. And equalizing Gateway/WG tech by nerfing WG tech availability and buffing Gateway build times might go a long way towards doing that.
Anyway, I'm glad that Blizzard are actively working on something. Kudos to them...
If there's a dynamic between WG and Gateways then it creates something far more interesting than a pure buff. Imagine WG being better offensively and Gateways being better defensively. This is what would happen if Gateways built faster than WG(marginally). Then we could see this dynamic being used in interesting ways. People converting to WG then attacking then shifting back to Gateways if they lose an attack so they can defend etc. etc. Having half gateways and have warpgates so they can deal with mobile drops etc.
It's far more interesting when both are viable.
On April 23 2011 00:18 SS-guy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2011 00:08 TheRabidDeer wrote:On April 23 2011 00:01 PanzerKing wrote:On April 22 2011 23:59 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I dont get it, there is finally an incredibly good anti-4gate strategy out for PvP and NOW blizzard decides, "hey, lets change 4 warpgate"? Even worse, they claim it is for the sake of PvP...
Man, changing the research time of warpgate will effectively destroy most of my FE builds, since I rely on that warpgate being done at that time to hold off pushes, from many different races. Are you talking about that 3-stalker build? It's not really that great, from what I've seen. AFAIK White-Ra lost to both San-Zenith and MC trying to use it against their 4-gates. It's just too dependant on sniping that first probe, which you can't guarantee. And if you make a mistake there, you're dead. No, I am talking about the build that day9 showcased a bit back. Something like gate robo gate then eventually add on a 3rd gate with a later 2nd gas. It generally crushes the 4gate builds and leads you into a pretty good spot to expand after you defend it. Its great because you have the robo, so if he goes DT you can defend that... and if he goes for an FE its ok too because you are ahead on tech now so you can expand yourself or pressure. It doesnt work well against phoenix or VR rush builds though. that build doesnt work. in the video, the 4gate hit late, and the guy didnt micro well vs day9 edit: if there were a GOOD counter to 4gate, then you would be seeing pros do it
That build does work against 4gate. The problem is it loses straight up against anything else. So it's not really a viable build. A build should be able to be adapted to everything, not blindly counter one thing.
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this should hopefully work, kinda like the stim nerf
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EPT
