On April 16 2011 14:37 Aurocaido wrote: He has many times, it's the meat eating fanatics who do not provide evidence.
he posted one video, and that's it...
The video is based on some highly questionable research results (I didn't watch it, I read the summary), and I found no credible research backing up these claims.
You can eat whatever you want, and I'll be more than happy to learn new things, but please provide some reasonable publications to back up various claims.
On April 16 2011 06:59 RawVeganYes wrote: Since most people wont read this entire thread let alone the page before this one I will post the video again. If you think humans are designed to eat meat watch the 27-35 mintue mark of the video i believe. Humans have ZERO meat eater traits There is nothing to debate on this. Humans are born plant eaters and aquire the TASTE of meat.
Here are some main points from the video on this for those "too busy to watch"
Humans have flat teath
Humans have the large intestines the length of a plant eater-NOT designed to eat meat. Real meater eaters can't get clogged arteries. The number 1 cause of human meat eaters is heart disease.
Humans jaw moves side to side-unlike a meat eater Humans do not have claws unlike the carnivore and omnivore Humans sweat through our pores to cool ourselfs-unlike panting meat eaters Humans have digestive enzymes in our saliva which only plant eaters have
The french article is silly. Anyone can neglect their kids. And regarding former vegans, the ones previously posted who have written books. A few former vegans have had poorly planned diets and gotten pissy and wrote a book. Ok.
A poorly planned diet of ANY kind will be a problem. Why this is hard for people to understand I will not know.
What about the millions of cases of meat eating familes neglecting their kids by feeding them like a pig with a troft making them massively obese????? and putting them on the path to future health problems.
Just saying.
Yeah, as a medical doctor I'm going to say that you are absolutely 100% wrong.. Starting with your first point:
Take a fucking look at your own canines, are they flat? If you answer this question with yes, then you are indeed a mutant and have probably also developed an extra stomach, entered a symbiotic state and are thus able to break down cellulose like other plant eating animals...
I'm not even going to bother with refuting the rest, it's a genuine waste of time as it is just as easily contradicted and if you actually thought about it you would realise how little sense it makes...
I don't care what you eat, I'm not here to turn you or anything - I'm here to stop the MASSIVE amount of misinformation that is being posted on both sides... And this was one of the worst posts in the entire thread....
Herbivores have canines as well. Having canines does not make you a carnivore. I don't know about you, but the tops of my canines are indeed flat. Not very effective at tearing or cutting meat.
The tops of your molars might be flat, but surely not your canines....
And whilst your movie is fancy, it is also wrong. The reason for the human to have survived so brilliantly in all the different millieus of this world is our skill to adapt. The human race isn't solely herbivore nor carnivore, we are equipped with the needed systems for both. And just to mention a single carnivore trait: Where are your eyes placed? On the side of your head like a deer? Or are they both pointing forward? This is one of the most common feat of all landliving carnivores, but yeah, let's just ignore that one...
And yeah, I'm not even going to bother with your cheapshot - reflects more on you than it does on me... If you are that insecure, perhaps don't make catagorical statements?
That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Just disregard everything humanity has learned over thousands of years and try to eat like cavemen did? What was the average life expectancy for a caveman? How about height?
"Hey, this 4'9'', toothless man who's middle-aged at 20 seems like he's got everything figured out, what with his total disregard for personal hygiene and his incomprehension of toilet paper. Give me what he's having!"
Jeez, I heard about the "paleo-diet" and I thought it made a lot of sense, but I also assumed that there was some actually science behind it. I mean, how do these people think we even know what cavemen ate at all? Is that really the basis for the idea? That is just absurd.
Dude, you really need to take an anthropology class, or get a book. People shrank in areas where the agricultural revolution took hold. They also began to get arthritis and other auto immune diseases. Intact hunter-gatherer tribes are invariably healthy. There life expectancy is shorter mainly due to infant mortality rates, which is not diet related...Although I did relate that infant death in the vegan article to the mother's diet, so...
Anyway, be sure you actually have some knowledge about something before you start spouting off about it. Primitive life was hardly "nasty, brutish, and short", random off-the-top-of-one's-head Hobbesian racist rants aside.
And to the guy who said something about the "meat fanatics" not providing evidence, somebody posted "The Expansive-Tissue Hypothesis" above, a peer-reviewed paper that has come to represent the consensus on this subject in the scientific community. The guys summary, that "meat made us human", pretty much sums it up.
And if you think this represents some conspiracy of meat industry funding, think about the fact that the soy, corn, and grain industries (which also use factory farming methods) dwarf the meat industry, and are in fact an important part of the US imperial system. Notice you don't hear about them so much. Who is pulling the strings?
"Control oil and you control nations; control food and you control the people."--Henry Kissinger
I think both sides are missing a huge point, which is, there is more the world than vegans and pure meat eaters lol.
I found for myself that the slow carb diet works best for me, so my eating is based on veggies/meats/nuts and some legumes. I am sure you can away with a vegan diet, but u gotta be careful to get all nutrients and not overeat grains (eating rice/pasta 10 times a week is not healthy)
What I really think problem with modern diet is the amount of people who eat sugary crap all day long. Wake up, bread and butter (or worse, cereal) with high sugar fruit juice or milk with added sugar.
Lunch rice with meat at best, or a bunch of hot dogs, bread again at noon, and finally a ton of pasta and rice. Ah, the sometimes add some fruits (with sugar lulz) to say they are eating healthy. Not to mention eating oreos and drinking tons of coke trough the day.
I'm not here to write a reseach paper and provide a list of links and essays. The internet is free. Chose to take out of it what you want. Google is your friend. Everything I mentioned can be found. Like I said many of the facts I stated about deforistation, the majority of main crops being used by factoring farms (soy, water, corn, grains, wheat) etc etc. Much of the data that reflects badly on the meat and dairy industries they even provide themselves. However, I spent 2 minutes and came up with 10 or so links about what factory farming does to the earth. Spend 2 hours and come up with 1 link telling me how factory farming and killing animals is heping anything. It's ok. I'll wait.
As stated a few pages back. Providing links won't do anything. because some meat eat will just come with a link of info paid for by the dairy industry.
The funny thing is the meat and dairy industries have something to gain. MONEY. Vegans are not trying to gain anything for themselves per se. We are trying to save lifes and the earth.
"There is more the world than vegans and pure meat eaters"
There's a pure meat eaters side? While I haven't seen anybody make an argument that human beings should ONLY eat meat, I will say that I think eating only meat would be better than going vegan.
Eskimos lived mainly on animal fat, and they were nice and healthy.
The Masai lived off dairy and blood, if my memory serves me correctly.
Neither of these groups experienced heart disease.
On April 16 2011 15:31 CorporationsRule wrote: "There is more the world than vegans and pure meat eaters"
There's a pure meat eaters side? While I haven't seen anybody make an argument that human beings should ONLY eat meat, I will say that I think eating only meat would be better than going vegan.
Eskimos lived mainly on animal fat, and they were nice and healthy.
The Masai lived off dairy and blood, if my memory serves me correctly.
Neither of these groups experienced heart disease.
"Spend 2 hours and come up with 1 link telling me how factory farming and killing animals is heping anything."
Nobody argued factory farming is good. Ever. Not once.
And you do realize most vegetables are factory farmed, right?
I buy all my meat from US Wellness Meats. It's all grass fed.
I also buy all organic vegetables, although I'm not sure I trust the government regulators to ensure that there own rather disappointing rules have been followed. I would rather buy from a local farmer I know and trust producing using sustainable permaculture methods, but I don't live near any. Actually, I'd rather just spend my days producing my food and hanging out with my community.
Buying vegetables from the grocery store is going to do nothing to stop the ecological crisis.
On April 16 2011 15:39 CorporationsRule wrote: "Spend 2 hours and come up with 1 link telling me how factory farming and killing animals is heping anything."
Nobody argued factory farming is good. Ever. Not once.
And you do realize most vegetables are factory farmed, right?
I buy all my meat from US Wellness Meats. It's all grass fed.
I also buy all organic vegetables, although I'm not sure I trust the government regulators to ensure that there own rather disappointing rules have been followed. I would rather buy from a local farmer I know and trust producing using sustainable permaculture methods, but I don't live near any. Actually, I'd rather just spend my days producing my food and hanging out with my community.
Buying vegetables from the grocery store is going to do nothing to stop the ecological crisis.
You do realizes there is a difference between factory farmed animals and plants right? This has already been covered in previous page. Please read.
Please please please do some research. Plant food requires exponentially less resources and does minmal damges campared to factory farmed meat and dairy. Please visit some of the links. it should be common sense anyways.
Just think about this. Since you did not read the last few pages. The resources on 1 acre of land can barley support 1 cow. The same resources on 1 acre can grow 80,000 pounds of patatos.
Here is common sense logic. The majority of our main crops (water, soy, corn, wheat etc) are fed to animals. Then humans eat those animals. This is called the middle man. We do not need to eat and murder the animals. We can simply use those plant resources ourselves.
I've read the literature on factory farming and the ecological crisis. The way our culture produces food is terrible. We are losing topsoil, a non-renewable resource, due to factory farming of plants, at an alarming rate. Factory farming of animals exacerbates the problem, and it's torture.
I do not see any of this as a reason to eat a diet that I feel is detrimental to my health.
Just a heads up. The plants are being factory farmed mostly FOR FACTORY FARMED ANIMALS lol. Please visit the 1st link I provided. Factory farmed animals consume a great deal of the earths water and plant matter.
Your diet is your choice. But the facts are facts.
On April 15 2011 09:27 Vain wrote: Omg, those people in the article should get their sentence. Stupidity is not a reason to let a person die. That said i think there's nothing wrong with going vegan if you just make sure you get the right nutrition. I have no problem with people going vegan but please don't look wierd at me or be disrespectful when i'm enjoying my nice red steak TYVM
Going vegan is wrong in so many ways. The way vegans think is basically unnatural and near-suicidal. The ony reason such people can actually sustain themselves is by taking a lot of pills and supplements. No way the human body can survive on what those people take in. It's basically a luxury lifestyle.
I've read through a few pages in this tread, and the amount of times I heard vegetarians say the word "pills" got me kind of worried. Is there really no way to keep all your vitamin levels etc. healthy without the use of pills?
If by luxury lifesyle you mean cheaper than eating meat? Ya it is. Last time I checked an apple was cheaper than a piece of meat. Hell a bunch of bananas is cheaper than meat. Someone made a comment on a different vegan thread be4 it got closed about how poor countries would laugh at the thought of being vegan and that it is a luxury. That comment made me want to face palm. Eating Vegan is far less expensive than eating a meat diet. Fruits and veggies are found in every part of every country. Refraining from eating meat only takes willpower and the awareness to stop. A small amount. Vietnam and India among other countries have a good amount of veggie/vegan population.
Supplements are not required with very minimal research. Idk why your calling a vitamin a pill like its crack or something. It's just silly.
For reference I am a 10 year vegan. 9 years of which have been raw vegan. Doctors and tests says I could not be much healthier. Am I superman? No. Humans are born plant eaters. The diet and lifestyle requires some amount planning. Like any diet should.
On April 16 2011 16:09 RawVeganYes wrote: If by luxury lifesyle you mean cheaper than eating meat? Ya it is. Last time I checked an apple was cheaper than a piece of meat. Hell a bunch of bananas is cheaper than meat. Someone made a comment on a different vegan thread be4 it got closed about how poor countries would laugh at the thought of being vegan and that it is a luxury. That comment made me want to face palm. Eating Vegan is far less expensive than eating a meat diet. Fruits and veggies are found in every part of every country. Refraining from eating meat only takes willpower and the awareness to stop. A small amount. Vietnam and India among other countries have a good amount of veggie/vegan population.
Supplements are not required with very minimal research. Idk why your calling a vitamin a pill like its crack or something. It's just silly.
For reference I am a 10 year vegan. 9 years of which have been raw vegan. Doctors and tests says I could not be much healthier. Am I superman? No. Humans are born plant eaters. The diet and lifestyle requires some amount planning. Like any diet should.
No... Or well, not any more than they are born meateaters... Stop spewing nonsense... And to bring up just as good evidence as you: I've never eaten anything other than a mixed diet, guess what, every single test says I couldn't be healthier... Anecdoctal evidence, isn't it awesome?
I will just let the smartest man of all time say it for me:
"Our task must be to free ourselves . . . by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature and its beauty."
"Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival for life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."
well my borther was vegetarian for 18 years, and vegan for i think 1 year (doesnt went to good for his health so turned it off) and now after 18 years he eats meat again. (only bio)
i often think its kind of a "style" in life and nothing wrong in it as long they not force their childrens to be so.
when i see parents let their childs be vegetarian its ok (i was vegetarian myself too before i was 14 years old because of my parents) but its not acceptable when they made them be vegan (for adult people its ok, not acceptable for childs they get rly unhealth and ill from it, even some parents in germany lost the right to grow up their childrens cause they only gave them vegan and then the childs was very ill)
so my question: what do you think about parents making their childs vegetarian vegan etc ?
Cordain, Loren (2007). "Implications of Plio-pleistocene diets for modern humans". In Peter S. Ungar. Evolution of the human diet: the known, the unkown and the unknowable. pp. 264–5.
"Since the evolutionary split between hominins and pongids approximately 7 million years ago, the available evidence shows that all species of hominins ate an omnivorous diet composed of minimally processed, wild-plant, and animal foods."
EPT
