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Do not make this a debate on meat eating. You don't need to prove people "wrong" about their eating habits. |
On April 15 2011 07:40 Piy wrote:One of the biggest problems is that the second someone posts a link, there will immediately be someone who posts a counter link and a fight begins between two people ill equipped to have one. You can just look on the internet and find studies linking Raw Food to reversing diabetes and cancer, and another where people claim that a vegan diet leads to chronic life threatening conditions after only a few years of eating it. Shit is pretty easy to find for both, same with vegan/non vegan - but I definitely don't want to commit to one side over the other. Very few of us in this thread truly possess a thorough enough understanding of human nutrition to decisively comment anyway. I don't at least. I will say this though - just based on what the layman knows about nutrition, it is incredibly intuitive to think that eating more fruit and vegetables is good for you. I mean, there's certainly nothing bad in them unless you're eating absurd quantities, and you do feel genuinely better if you include more of them in your diet, and I doubt you'll find many nutritionists that will challenge this point. Also, in my opinion, the whole raw food thing is blown a bit out of proportion by its practioners. It's a great diet, and is working very well for me, but you will find some pretty militant raw vegans out there who are extremely aggressive in propagating their views to others, probably to the detriment of their argument  But I mean, frying isn't as healthy as boiling, roasting isn't as healthy as steaming etc. because they contain cooked oil. It's not like a raw/cooked divide right down the middle, there is grey area. And ultimately, until clear evidence emerges, rather than the somewhat murky, anecdotal evidence we have right now, the only thing you can do is what works for you. Try dramatically increasing your consumption of greens for a week, or replacing some of your carbs and sugar with bananas and fruit and see what happens. There's enough evidence to indicate that you won't keel over dead, and its an interesting experiment to do, and I didn't want to go back to a high grain/fried food diet afterwards.
Very well said, I absolutely agree. It's probably most likely that optimal human nutrition is more nuanced and more complicated than anybody on this forum (myself included) knows. Taking a moderate stance to diet by making small adjustments over time, being able to compromise with what your medical professional advises you to do, and getting regular medical examinations to ensure that your diet isn't immediately or blatantly causing harm is probably the best course of action for layperson's like ourselves to take.
Also, I agree with you on how some people overblow the raw food diet (or any other currently popular diet). I think that whenever someone makes an extravagant nutritional/medical claim ("Eat raw food, cure your cancer!") that we ought to be really skeptical. Human nutrition isn't simple enough to be encapsulated in one-liners like that.
Oh, and personally, I never eat any red meat or poultry, but I eat sushi sometimes (sooooo good, I can't help myself lol), so I'm a semi-veggie I guess. Lots of fruits and veggies and whole grains, moderate amounts of dairy, and even some occasional exercise! Doc says I'm as healthy as they get. ^^
Edit: Wow and that article was really interesting but very sad. They even took their baby to the doctor and were told something was wrong, but they ignored it I guess. ( So pointless. It's like hearing of those prayer healing churches; some people just don't trust medical professionals and so children die of totally curable things.
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Omg, those people in the article should get their sentence. Stupidity is not a reason to let a person die. That said i think there's nothing wrong with going vegan if you just make sure you get the right nutrition. I have no problem with people going vegan but please don't look wierd at me or be disrespectful when i'm enjoying my nice red steak TYVM
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On April 15 2011 07:58 Escapist wrote:Just sharing some of the latest events related with strict vegan diets on this side of the Atlantic. Im not against any kind of diet at all and this is not to refrain anyone from trying it. The objective is to alert anyone that might be feeling "fundamentalist" about it that tolerance is one of humanity best features. Negativity not intended, just using it to fuel the discussion. Very interesting untill now, thank you  Peace.
I think the main thing in that article is that they fed the baby nothing but breast milk. A non-vegan couple could do the same thing and it would result in the baby's death. I mentioned earlier in the thread though how vegans need to be actively taking b12 supplements or alternatively find a fortified source of it through soy milk or vegemite, for example.
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I may not be a vegetarian, but there's one thing I've noticed to be true, at least in the US, which is that non-vegetarians tend to eat VERY little fruits and vegetables. It's quite ridiculous how many people I know go weeks without so much as a single vegetable (and I'm sorry, that one piece of lettuce/tomato on your burger does NOT count).
Even if you don't want to choose the extreme, the body still needs vegetables people... and we wonder why so many people are unhealthy these days.
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On April 15 2011 07:58 Escapist wrote:Just sharing some of the latest events related with strict vegan diets on this side of the Atlantic. Im not against any kind of diet at all and this is not to refrain anyone from trying it. The objective is to alert anyone that might be feeling "fundamentalist" about it that tolerance is one of humanity best features. ![[image loading]](http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/1788/frenchvegan.jpg) Negativity not intended, just using it to fuel the discussion. Very interesting untill now, thank you Peace.
Neglect is neglect. I'm sure there were many non-vegan babies that died from malnutrition but didn't make the news. It irritates me how people dismiss a whole belief based on one isolated case. It also irritates me that this was written/posted here at all.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 13 2011 18:35 RawVeganYes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 18:24 Ghostcom wrote:On April 13 2011 18:06 RawVeganYes wrote:On April 13 2011 17:56 Ghostcom wrote:On April 13 2011 17:41 RawVeganYes wrote:On April 13 2011 17:38 Ghostcom wrote:
Raw food is actually pretty dangerous... There is a pretty good reason why all civilisations have heated up their food beyond 60 degrees; germs you know... O god lol. These kinds of people. Now I regret posting. I don't understand why people post withought doing some research first. Of course there are a few SELECT foods that are dangerous raw. Do you think I eat those foods? A banana is raw, is that dangerous? thanks. I'm not going into a lengthy debate about this, but I happen to work at the department of infectious diseases at a university hospital as a doctor, so I actually have a clue... There have been studies regarding raw-food where they compare it to cooked food and the conclusions were: 1) Raw-food lacks COMPLETELY in the vitamin D-department (you get it mostly from fish and eggs). 2) Betacaroten bloodlevel content is twice as high in asparagus, 3 times as high in onions and 5 times as high in carrots when they are cooked compared to raw. 3) It is pretty hard to get enough proteins and iron, just as it is with a vegan diet and you are going to lack in the long fatty chain department. 4) The thought that lies behind raw-food which is that enzymes are destroyed when heated above 42 degrees and that if you don't heat them above said temperature you can utilize said enzymes is wrong. The enzymes are destroyed anyhow as soon as they reach the acidic enviroment in your stomach. This is not to belittle the choice you've made - you can eat whatever you want for me. It's merely the facts. EDIT: And for the future, please keep your personal insults and belittling remarks at the door. There is really no reason for them and they only make you seem insecure >_> And now, gogogogogo more recipies - I for one could definitely use more veggies in my diet and I'm looking for inspiration on how to make it more interesting 1) Most people actually don’t get vitamin D from their diet, because it is produced naturally in the body after being exposed to sunlight 2) As I stated, there are a SELECT group of foods that have increased nutritional value when cooking them. As stated in my previous post I admitted that. However, as I said be4 most foods lose a portion of their nutritional content when cooked. 3) 1 oz. or my raw jungle peanuts has 7 grams of protein. Thanks though. Pumpkin seeds have an insane amount of iron and protein. Nuts and seeds are plenty to cover the iron and protein areas. 4) Just lol. A poorly planned diet or any kind will be lacking. Your facts are not facts. If you really want to have this discussion I will be more than happy to do it in PMs, but I'm not willing to derail this thread any further. But I will leave you with this: 1) 80% of the Scandinavian population is vitamin D-deficient, the sun is pretty far from being enough for the vast majority of the western civilizations population, the dietary intake is fairly important as well. 2) Your select group of foods is a lot bigger than you make it sound. 3) Congratulations? See the explanation about essential aminoacids written by someone else further up. I'm not saying it's impossible to get enough protein, just that it is very hard. There is a reason why one of the central questions are if people are having special diets when admitting them to the hospital - and attempt at good service isn't the one... 4) Glad to make you happy - yet that is the most used pseudo-scientific argument for why raw-food is TEH SHIZZLE. And as with many other pseudo-scientific arguments it's wrong. Again, if you want to eat raw-food, be my guest, if it makes you happy, well congratulations - I'm not here to "turn you around". I'm originally here to steal your recipies, but when I see someone praising a potentially dangerous and lifethreatening diet I feel I have to voice my concerns that people eating raw-food run the risk of deficiencysyndroms unless they plan carefully. 1) I live in California. I am Raw Vegan. I am not deficient in vitamin D (nor anything else). If this is a problem for someone, then take a vegan multi vitamin. Case closed. 2) You named about 3 foods that benefit from cooking out of thousands. There is a reasons why there are only a handful of specific known foods that benefit from cooking. It is because it is generally known that the cooking process in MOST foods DESTROYS some nutrients. Otherewise it would be the other way aorund and they would be listing the handful of few specific foods that are more nutrient dense raw. But this isnt the case. Becuase infact, MOST foods are more nutritious raw. As I already stated some foods can't be eaten raw. So don't eat them.... 3) Again a poorly planned diet of any kind will be lacking and dangerous. Getting the proper amino acids is not a problem with minimal research. I'm not sure why you are making it out to be. It involves a few minutes of research and then eating the food. If someone can't be bothered to do the reseach or for peace of mind, then take "Sunwarrior" raw vegan protein powder for a complete amino acid profile. Case closed. You make it seem like by eating raw vegan food I'm eating food from Mars or something. I eat Raw fruits and veggies just like you do (as well as seeds, nuts, some raw food bars, a small amount of supplements etc). I simply do not eat cooked or non vegan food (most of the time, see below). As I stated I am 100% Vegan and 90% raw. So I do eat cooked vegan food on occasion and do take a small amount of supplements for peace of mind. I am not here to preach. Veggie, Vegan, Raw Vegan... its all good to me. Hell if you want to eat meat I dont care. Everyone has a choice. Supplementing is not required all the time, but for beginers or peace of mind it can be done There is no shame in it. People of all walks of life take some form of supplements be it red bull, coffee, herbs, prescription drugs etc etc. I had hoped this thread would not turn into a shitstorm. And that it would be a great source of information and recipes. However, I expected it. This is why I do not generally talk about veganism in general forums or online at all. Hell even talking with people in person can be laughable. Meat eaters always come and tell us were wrong with "facts" that they heard from some study done by some people funded by the meat and dairy industy. People are so close minded lots of times and have their blinders on regarding this subject. Stepping outside of their comfort zone and doing some actual non biased research isnt something alot of people like to do. People like to do what they have always done. There are lots of common sense reasons why eating meat and dairy is not "needed" in the video below. Its the most basic of common sense that it can't be debated. Peace and Love and Peace out P.S. I will leave you all with this video. It provides a wealth of information on vegnanism in general. The best video on this subject I have seen.
Watched that last night. It's a very solid arguement (despite Gary's lameness  ) and really presents veganism as a logical and pragmatic lifestyle. I suggest any skeptics watch this.
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What do you guys do on your daily cooking to make sure that you're not missing vitamins or amino acids? I often look at what I have to cook, and have no idea what should I put together with what to make a complete meal.
For example. I have rice, beans and brocolis right now. What do I need to add to that to make a complete meal?
And this is just one example, how can I look up some information on how that works? I did try to do some research on that on some vegetarian sites. But most just give generalized info like "just try to have a lot of variety" and "soy has most of the protein you need". I know those, but I don't wanna put every single type of fruit on every single meal every day. Nor do I wanna eat soy every day. So how can I always be sure that I have a complete meal?
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On April 15 2011 23:43 VIB wrote:
What do you guys do on your daily cooking to make sure that you're not missing vitamins or amino acids? I often look at what I have to cook, and have no idea what should I put together with what to make a complete meal.
For example. I have rice, beans and brocolis right now. What do I need to add to that to make a complete meal?
And this is just one example, how can I look up some information on how that works? I did try to do some research on that on some vegetarian sites. But most just give generalized info like "just try to have a lot of variety" and "soy has most of the protein you need". I know those, but I don't wanna put every single type of fruit on every single meal every day. Nor do I wanna eat soy every day. So how can I always be sure that I have a complete meal?
I either use recipe sites and edit out animal products just to give me a basic idea of what i'm going for, you just have to tweak it so it doesn't taste like meat-less meat dishes. OR i improvise which is very lol. It's just a matter of experience and knowing what tastes good with what. It's a problem not entirely specific to vegans/vegetarians too.
It's also having a multitude of recipes, having one dish with specific things you need, then spreading them out so you cover your bases.
I've kind of been neglecting my eating lately, i should think more about my diet...
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On April 15 2011 23:47 frogurt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 23:43 VIB wrote:
What do you guys do on your daily cooking to make sure that you're not missing vitamins or amino acids? I often look at what I have to cook, and have no idea what should I put together with what to make a complete meal.
For example. I have rice, beans and brocolis right now. What do I need to add to that to make a complete meal?
And this is just one example, how can I look up some information on how that works? I did try to do some research on that on some vegetarian sites. But most just give generalized info like "just try to have a lot of variety" and "soy has most of the protein you need". I know those, but I don't wanna put every single type of fruit on every single meal every day. Nor do I wanna eat soy every day. So how can I always be sure that I have a complete meal? I either use recipe sites and edit out animal products just to give me a basic idea of what i'm going for, you just have to tweak it so it doesn't taste like meat-less meat dishes. OR i improvise which is very lol. It's just a matter of experience and knowing what tastes good with what. It's a problem not entirely specific to vegans/vegetarians too. It's also having a multitude of recipes, having one dish with specific things you need, then spreading them out so you cover your bases. I've kind of been neglecting my eating lately, i should think more about my diet... I'm not talking about taste. I suppose I can handle that part well by just adding the right spices. But I'm worried about eating healthy stuff and not missing anything. Don't you even bother trying to figure if your meal is missing something and trying to mix things up in a way so it's complete for your "daily nutrition needs"?
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Until two years ago, I would have told you veganism is the way to go. Since then, personal experiences and research has led me to believe otherwise.
We evolved eating meat. Without it, many people, and everybody I know who has gone without for an extended period of time, develop major health issues. My girlfriend, for example, was a vegetarian for seven years. By the end she was getting sick once or twice a month and had stopped having her period. She started eating meat again a year ago. She has gotten sick once since, and her period became regular again in a month or two. For an account of a 20 year vegan who's body is decimated and warns against the practice, read "The Vegetarian Myth".
The problem with the meat we get at the store today is not that it is meat, but that it is fed corn and soy, instead of natural grasses or whatever else it would naturally eat. This creates a fat ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 that is way out of natures balance (around 1:1). Since omega six fats are inflammatory, and greatly increased by a grain diet, this is a source of a lot of our health problems, along with hormones, pesticides, and the consumptions of grains themselves. It's also obviously not cool that we torture the animals we eat, but we torture the people who make our clothes, and I don't think the solution to that problem is to stop wearing clothes.
Think about it. When did we start eating wheat, soy, corn, and other grains? Only ten thousand years ago, at most, with the coming of the agriculture revolution in a few parts of the world. This is nothing in terms of evolutionary time. Our bodies are not adapted to the consumption of these foods, which begins to explain why so many people have allergies to these foods, or develop Celiac disease.
We evolved on a diet of wild, grass-fed meats, greens, tart wild fruit (like berries) and nuts. It seems to me, and many people who study this, that this is where we should look to begin to talk about what a healthy diet would be.
I really encourage people to look into this, whether you eat meet or not. I feel it has saved me from a life of fatigue and chronic illness.
Every time Artosis talks about vegetarianism, it makes me sad and I want to have a heart to heart with him. Why is Tastosis so good at making you feel like they are your buddies?
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Yeah. Im on board with VIB. I've not eaten meat for a long time now, and in the process of cutting dairy, im still alive, but I know there's a vast amount of knowledge im not familiar with regarding the nurtririon my body needs. I expect someone to call us out and tell us that we should look online, which I am doing, but its always interesting to hear about the anecdotes of people who have gone through a similar change.
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On April 16 2011 00:15 CorporationsRule wrote:Until two years ago, I would have told you veganism is the way to go. Since then, personal experiences and research has led me to believe otherwise. We evolved eating meat. Without it, many people, and everybody I know who has gone without for an extended period of time, develop major health issues. My girlfriend, for example, was a vegetarian for seven years. By the end she was getting sick once or twice a month and had stopped having her period. She started eating meat again a year ago. She has gotten sick once since, and her period became regular again in a month or two. For an account of a 20 year vegan who's body is decimated and warns against the practice, read "The Vegetarian Myth". The problem with the meat we get at the store today is not that it is meat, but that it is fed corn and soy, instead of natural grasses or whatever else it would naturally eat. This creates a fat ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 that is way out of natures balance (around 1:1). Since omega six fats are inflammatory, and greatly increased by a grain diet, this is a source of a lot of our health problems, along with hormones, pesticides, and the consumptions of grains themselves. It's also obviously not cool that we torture the animals we eat, but we torture the people who make our clothes, and I don't think the solution to that problem is to stop wearing clothes. Think about it. When did we start eating wheat, soy, corn, and other grains? Only ten thousand years ago, at most, with the coming of the agriculture revolution in a few parts of the world. This is nothing in terms of evolutionary time. Our bodies are not adapted to the consumption of these foods, which begins to explain why so many people have allergies to these foods, or develop Celiac disease. We evolved on a diet of wild, grass-fed meats, greens, tart wild fruit (like berries) and nuts. It seems to me, and many people who study this, that this is where we should look to begin to talk about what a healthy diet would be. I really encourage people to look into this, whether you eat meet or not. I feel it has saved me from a life of fatigue and chronic illness. Every time Artosis talks about vegetarianism, it makes me sad and I want to have a heart to heart with him. Why is Tastosis so good at making you feel like they are your buddies?
Do you think that what you say we miss from meat we could get from dairy products? Legit question.
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On April 15 2011 14:11 forgotten0ne wrote:
I may not be a vegetarian, but there's one thing I've noticed to be true, at least in the US, which is that non-vegetarians tend to eat VERY little fruits and vegetables. It's quite ridiculous how many people I know go weeks without so much as a single vegetable (and I'm sorry, that one piece of lettuce/tomato on your burger does NOT count).
Even if you don't want to choose the extreme, the body still needs vegetables people... and we wonder why so many people are unhealthy these days.
I could never be a vegetarian because my girlfriend is a serious carnivore, but we eat loooots of vegetables/fruit and in fact we feel incredibly bad if we just eat starches/meat for 2-3 days. I think its more that the white/black people who have been living in the US for a long time just don't know how to cook vegetables. Most first and second generation immigrants (afro caribbeans, African africans, middle eastern, and asian) in my area tend to shop at this store that sells lots of different kinds of fruits, vegetables, and seafood whereas the black and white people who have been here for hundreds of years go to the big grocery store with only the common vegetables which are overpriced and limited seafood.
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Do you think that what you say we miss from meat we could get from dairy products? Legit question.
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The jury in my head is out on that one. Lierre Keith, who wrote the book I mentioned, "The Vegetarian Myth", drinks tons of raw (unpastuerized) milk produced by grass-fed cows. She says she needs as much fat as she can get every three hours or so to help lower the amount of pain she is in from damage she has done to things like her spine from being vegan. The guy who wrote "The Paleo-Diet" thinks we didn't start drinking milk until recently in terms of evolutionary time, and therefore shouldn't be drinking it.
Neither of them think you can replace whatever is in meat with dairy. Part of the evolutionary diet perspective is to admit that we can never fully understand anything in science because the world is infinitely complex, so to be able to say "after analyzing milk I think it has everything you need" even though it is not what we evolved eating (after being weened from our mother's breast milk of course) is not something that can ever be completely proven.
With regards to the article about breast feeding above, the problem they had with that baby doesn't seem to me to be that they breast fed the baby, which evolution would say has to be the way to go, at least until around two, but that the women's breast milk was not nourishing because she was vegan. That her milk lacked the proper fats would be my guess.
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Since most people wont read this entire thread let alone the page before this one I will post the video again. If you think humans are designed to eat meat watch the 27-35 mintue mark of the video i believe. Humans have ZERO meat eater traits There is nothing to debate on this. Humans are born plant eaters and aquire the TASTE of meat.
Here are some main points from the video on this for those "too busy to watch"
Humans have flat teath
Humans have the large intestines the length of a plant eater-NOT designed to eat meat. Real meater eaters can't get clogged arteries. The number 1 cause of human meat eaters is heart disease.
Humans jaw moves side to side-unlike a meat eater
Humans do not have claws unlike the carnivore and omnivore
Humans sweat through our pores to cool ourselfs-unlike panting meat eaters
Humans have digestive enzymes in our saliva which only plant eaters have
The french article is silly. Anyone can neglect their kids. And regarding former vegans, the ones previously posted who have written books. A few former vegans have had poorly planned diets and gotten pissy and wrote a book. Ok.
A poorly planned diet of ANY kind will be a problem. Why this is hard for people to understand I will not know.
What about the millions of cases of meat eating familes neglecting their kids by feeding them like a pig with a troft making them massively obese????? and putting them on the path to future health problems.
Just saying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4
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On April 16 2011 06:59 RawVeganYes wrote:Since most people wont read this entire thread let alone the page before this one I will post the video again. If you think humans are designed to eat meat watch the 27-35 mintue mark of the video i believe. Humans have ZERO meat eater traits There is nothing to debate on this. Humans are born plant eaters and aquire the TASTE of meat. Here are some main points from the video on this for those "too busy to watch" Humans have flat teath Humans have the large intestines the length of a plant eater-NOT designed to eat meat. Real meater eaters can't get clogged arteries. The number 1 cause of human meat eaters is heart disease. Humans jaw moves side to side-unlike a meat eater Humans do not have claws unlike the carnivore and omnivore Humans sweat through our pores to cool ourselfs-unlike panting meat eaters Humans have digestive enzymes in our saliva which only plant eaters have The french article is silly. Anyone can neglect their kids. And regarding former vegans, the ones previously posted who have written books. A few former vegans have had poorly planned diets and gotten pissy and wrote a book. Ok. A poorly planned diet of ANY kind will be a problem. Why this is hard for people to understand I will not know.What about the millions of cases of meat eating familes neglecting their kids by feeding them like a pig with a troft making them massively obese????? and putting them on the path to future health problems. Just saying. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4
Yeah, as a medical doctor I'm going to say that you are absolutely 100% wrong.. Starting with your first point:
Take a fucking look at your own canines, are they flat? If you answer this question with yes, then you are indeed a mutant and have probably also developed an extra stomach, entered a symbiotic state and are thus able to break down cellulose like other plant eating animals...
I'm not even going to bother with refuting the rest, it's a genuine waste of time as it is just as easily contradicted and if you actually thought about it you would realise how little sense it makes...
I don't care what you eat, I'm not here to turn you or anything - I'm here to stop the MASSIVE amount of misinformation that is being posted on both sides... And this was one of the worst posts in the entire thread....
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On April 16 2011 06:59 RawVeganYes wrote:
A poorly planned diet of ANY kind will be a problem. Why this is hard for people to understand I will not know. That's cool and all, but how exactly do I plan my diet to make sure I'm eating all my daily needs? I read from vegan sites saying there are different types of protein you need from different vegetables etc. But I never found which ones have what of what I need so I can plan what to cook. Any help?
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On April 16 2011 07:14 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 06:59 RawVeganYes wrote:Since most people wont read this entire thread let alone the page before this one I will post the video again. If you think humans are designed to eat meat watch the 27-35 mintue mark of the video i believe. Humans have ZERO meat eater traits There is nothing to debate on this. Humans are born plant eaters and aquire the TASTE of meat. Here are some main points from the video on this for those "too busy to watch" Humans have flat teath Humans have the large intestines the length of a plant eater-NOT designed to eat meat. Real meater eaters can't get clogged arteries. The number 1 cause of human meat eaters is heart disease. Humans jaw moves side to side-unlike a meat eater Humans do not have claws unlike the carnivore and omnivore Humans sweat through our pores to cool ourselfs-unlike panting meat eaters Humans have digestive enzymes in our saliva which only plant eaters have The french article is silly. Anyone can neglect their kids. And regarding former vegans, the ones previously posted who have written books. A few former vegans have had poorly planned diets and gotten pissy and wrote a book. Ok. A poorly planned diet of ANY kind will be a problem. Why this is hard for people to understand I will not know.What about the millions of cases of meat eating familes neglecting their kids by feeding them like a pig with a troft making them massively obese????? and putting them on the path to future health problems. Just saying. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4 Yeah, as a medical doctor I'm going to say that you are absolutely 100% wrong.. Starting with your first point: Take a fucking look at your own canines, are they flat? If you answer this question with yes, then you are indeed a mutant and have probably also developed an extra stomach, entered a symbiotic state and are thus able to break down cellulose like other plant eating animals... I'm not even going to bother with refuting the rest, it's a genuine waste of time as it is just as easily contradicted and if you actually thought about it you would realise how little sense it makes... I don't care what you eat, I'm not here to turn you or anything - I'm here to stop the MASSIVE amount of misinformation that is being posted on both sides... And this was one of the worst posts in the entire thread....
Dude before your big scientific rebuttal you should have examined the source which his information was based on, it covers the argument of canines. It also presents other arguments which his summary has missed.
Also i don't appreciate the animosity in which you replied, please try and keep the debate civil and structured.
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I think what we're seeing here is the issues raised when people begin to bring anecdotal evidence into the debate. Yes you see stories of vegan couple's children dieing or becoming seriously defficient, and girls whose periods stop, but you can also find large amounts of stories of people who have reversed terrible health problems, haven't experienced any of the problems listed above, and been vegan/raw vegan for 30+ years.
Then you get the humans evolved as meat eaters argument or not, which looks at only an isolated period of human evolution, but is ultimately inconclusive on either side. We probably ate mostly plant foods + insects for a long time because they were all we could forage, with insects making a small percentage of the total calories consumed.
It just all depends on personal experience. Some people have great success on a vegan diet, others become ill. I would argue that becoming ill is a result of a poorly planned diet, not the vegan diet itself, but this is just from my personal experience with long term vegans, many of whom are far healthier now than previously.
Thing is is that isolated people eating meat or eating vegan will have random health problems that you can blame on diet. Meat eater gets colon cancer? Meat diet. Raw vegan gets iron deficiency? must be diet. Meat eater gets iron deficiency? must be something else.
It's just all anecdotal, and it's not that these stories shouldn't be brought up in this thread, it's just that you shouldn't quote a bunch of them as evidence that is irrefutable, it just incites anger from the opposite camp.
VIB, you'll get people saying you need meat and dairy to be healthy, noone can really prove they're wrong, but vegan diets do work very well for a lot of people, and provided you are careful to not undereat and eat a lot of fruits and greens, which have ridiculous amounts of nutrition relative to calories, I would say you would be fine based on my experience with the diet. Particularly if you eat a lot of almonds/flax seeds/walnuts/sunflower seeds etc. a lot of deficiencies can eliminated.
There are extremely long term vegans who test at a perfect level in everything after thirty years, so I really don't think we can explicitly say that veganism, even without supplementation, leads to B12 deficiency.
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On April 16 2011 08:44 frogurt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 07:14 Ghostcom wrote:On April 16 2011 06:59 RawVeganYes wrote:Since most people wont read this entire thread let alone the page before this one I will post the video again. If you think humans are designed to eat meat watch the 27-35 mintue mark of the video i believe. Humans have ZERO meat eater traits There is nothing to debate on this. Humans are born plant eaters and aquire the TASTE of meat. Here are some main points from the video on this for those "too busy to watch" Humans have flat teath Humans have the large intestines the length of a plant eater-NOT designed to eat meat. Real meater eaters can't get clogged arteries. The number 1 cause of human meat eaters is heart disease. Humans jaw moves side to side-unlike a meat eater Humans do not have claws unlike the carnivore and omnivore Humans sweat through our pores to cool ourselfs-unlike panting meat eaters Humans have digestive enzymes in our saliva which only plant eaters have The french article is silly. Anyone can neglect their kids. And regarding former vegans, the ones previously posted who have written books. A few former vegans have had poorly planned diets and gotten pissy and wrote a book. Ok. A poorly planned diet of ANY kind will be a problem. Why this is hard for people to understand I will not know.What about the millions of cases of meat eating familes neglecting their kids by feeding them like a pig with a troft making them massively obese????? and putting them on the path to future health problems. Just saying. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4 Yeah, as a medical doctor I'm going to say that you are absolutely 100% wrong.. Starting with your first point: Take a fucking look at your own canines, are they flat? If you answer this question with yes, then you are indeed a mutant and have probably also developed an extra stomach, entered a symbiotic state and are thus able to break down cellulose like other plant eating animals... I'm not even going to bother with refuting the rest, it's a genuine waste of time as it is just as easily contradicted and if you actually thought about it you would realise how little sense it makes... I don't care what you eat, I'm not here to turn you or anything - I'm here to stop the MASSIVE amount of misinformation that is being posted on both sides... And this was one of the worst posts in the entire thread.... Dude before your big scientific rebuttal you should have examined the source which his information was based on, it covers the argument of canines. It also presents other arguments which his summary has missed. Also i don't appreciate the animosity in which you replied, please try and keep the debate civil and structured.
Meat eating made us human
http://www.scribd.com/doc/20045146/The-Expensive-Tissue-Hypothesis
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img691.imageshack.us/i/frenchvegan.jpg/)
