On April 13 2011 05:34 Brotkrumen wrote: As my question wasn't noticed:
What do you vegetarians weigh and what is your height? Did your doctor ever say anything regarding health?
Been Vegi for about 18 years (since I was 16 ) Both of our children a Girl 11 years old and a boy 4 years old have been vegi all their lifes I am about 5 foot 8 inches tall Im around 155-165 lbs
My wife has a Masters in nutritional sciences, she stopped her doctoral work less than a year from getting her PHD.
I state that just to say I follow her advice when it comes to eating right and getting what my kids and I need.
I'm not a vegan myself, but when I saw this thread I had to post because I'm actually very curious about a vegetarian's diet. Say you're strictly a vegan (no milk, cheese, eggs, fish etc) and your diet is vegetables, fruits and grains. To my knowledge, every "complete" protein is now gone with regards to amino acids.
First question is: does this actually matter? Can this lead to any deficiencies? As a weight trainer myself I have been taught that humans need complete sources of protein to build muscle. While this is probably true, I would think that this applies to human growth in most regards. Would a child never fed a complete source of protein be underweight and smaller than one that had been eating meat/dairy? I heard a rumour from a friend who lives in Shanghai that in the poorer parts of China the people are generally shorter and smaller due to them only eating rice, I have no idea if it's actually true or not.
Second question is a followup. If this is actually true, what kind of precautions can vegans take to avoid this and ensure healthy and normal growth? I once spoke with a vegan who was an absolute stick who told me he mixed several different vegetables together to create a whole set of amino acids, but since vegetables are simply not even close to protein dense, is the amount you can create and eat enough?
I'm also very curious to if any of the vegans here are somewhat muscular or have strong physiques. And/or if you workout, what are your lift stats?
Perhaps to shed some light on the matter:
There are 20 basic amino acids. 8 of these amino acids are considered to be "essential" - they cannot be synthesized in the body, and must be consumed directly. The other 12 amino acids can be synthesized using the either amino acids as precursor molecules. So long as you vary your diet to include all these amino acids, you will be fine. The body doesn't need *that* much protein, only about 1g/kg body mass per day.
When cells assemble proteins, they do it from individual amino acids, one at a time to build a polymer/polypeptide. It makes no difference where those amino acids come from; protein consumed in meat or in any other source will be catabolized into individual amino acids just the same. As far as stunted growth goes, there are other issues to consider as well. There's caloric intake, vitamins, etc.
Ok, I guess it makes sense that you can cycle foods to get all your amino acids, but in this case they are not all present at the same time and your body still cannot build muscle tissue, right? Obviously to accurately wage if a lack of complete proteins caused stunted growth, there are many variables. But let's assume you have two children intaking the same kcal everyday, same macro nutrient buildup, but in one the proteins are complete and in the other they are incomplete. Would this actually result in stunted growth?
On April 13 2011 05:34 Brotkrumen wrote: As my question wasn't noticed:
What do you vegetarians weigh and what is your height? Did your doctor ever say anything regarding health?
Been Vegi for about 18 years (since I was 16 ) Both of our children a Girl 11 years old and a boy 4 years old have been vegi all their lifes I am about 5 foot 8 inches tall Im around 155-165 lbs
My wife has a Masters in nutritional sciences, she stopped her doctoral work less than a year from getting her PHD.
I state that just to say I follow her advice when it comes to eating right and getting what my kids and I need.
I'm not a vegan myself, but when I saw this thread I had to post because I'm actually very curious about a vegetarian's diet. Say you're strictly a vegan (no milk, cheese, eggs, fish etc) and your diet is vegetables, fruits and grains. To my knowledge, every "complete" protein is now gone with regards to amino acids.
First question is: does this actually matter? Can this lead to any deficiencies? As a weight trainer myself I have been taught that humans need complete sources of protein to build muscle. While this is probably true, I would think that this applies to human growth in most regards. Would a child never fed a complete source of protein be underweight and smaller than one that had been eating meat/dairy? I heard a rumour from a friend who lives in Shanghai that in the poorer parts of China the people are generally shorter and smaller due to them only eating rice, I have no idea if it's actually true or not.
Second question is a followup. If this is actually true, what kind of precautions can vegans take to avoid this and ensure healthy and normal growth? I once spoke with a vegan who was an absolute stick who told me he mixed several different vegetables together to create a whole set of amino acids, but since vegetables are simply not even close to protein dense, is the amount you can create and eat enough?
I'm also very curious to if any of the vegans here are somewhat muscular or have strong physiques. And/or if you workout, what are your lift stats?
Perhaps to shed some light on the matter:
There are 20 basic amino acids. 8 of these amino acids are considered to be "essential" - they cannot be synthesized in the body, and must be consumed directly. The other 12 amino acids can be synthesized using the either amino acids as precursor molecules. So long as you vary your diet to include all these amino acids, you will be fine. The body doesn't need *that* much protein, only about 1g/kg body mass per day.
When cells assemble proteins, they do it from individual amino acids, one at a time to build a polymer/polypeptide. It makes no difference where those amino acids come from; protein consumed in meat or in any other source will be catabolized into individual amino acids just the same. As far as stunted growth goes, there are other issues to consider as well. There's caloric intake, vitamins, etc.
Ok, I guess it makes sense that you can cycle foods to get all your amino acids, but in this case they are not all present at the same time and your body still cannot build muscle tissue, right? Obviously to accurately wage if a lack of complete proteins caused stunted growth, there are many variables. But let's assume you have two children intaking the same kcal everyday, same macro nutrient buildup, but in one the proteins are complete and in the other they are incomplete. Would this actually result in stunted growth?
Well, when you say "incomplete" do you mean that one child would only ever eat 1 protein source that is incomplete? For lack of a better example, if you have corn, potatoes and beans in one meal, cumulatively you would be eating a complete protein source in one meal. If you only ever ate corn alone though, you would certainly have problems..
In terms of building muscle in an athletic context, it's more difficult for vegetarians generally because they (tend) to have less protein. It's important to note that less doesn't necessarily mean deficient, though.
On April 13 2011 06:13 Meta wrote: For the first three years of our relationship, my girlfriend was a vegetarian. It's funny, she actually felt embarrassed for some reason and told me and my friends that her stomach couldn't digest meat proteins, but it turns out she just cared too much for animals
Anyway, she never tried to persuade me to be a vegetarian, and I never tried to persuade her to eat meat. Then one day, out of the blue, she decided that she didn't want to be a vegetarian anymore, and to this day couldn't be happier with that decision.
Like I said previously in this thread, I really respect vegetarians/vegans for their decision. A lot of them don't act like it's difficult to entirely avoid meat products but I don't buy it one bit. It would be so hard! I can't even imagine it. Maybe I'm just a picky eater ^^
My opinion is, we certainly exploit the animals we breed, raise, and kill to eat. Is this unethical? Perhaps. But I don't think it's as unethical as a lot of vegans/vegetarians make it out to be. It sucks that profit has induced radical change in modern farming communities to cut expenses which generally creates horrible living conditions for the animals. I wish there was some regulation in that regard. But "good" farms exist, where cattle are raised fairly well. My grandpa had an organic farm where he raised 30 or so cattle at a time and they all grazed pastures every single day, and man were they delicious.
I think non-vegetarianism can be conducted ethically, and even when it's not conducted ethically, well at least the victims aren't humans. (Pretty much a cop-out argument, I know)
I'm not a vegetarian but still most of the time do not cook anything with meat. The meat I still eat is beef or pork tenderloin or veal because it tastes awesome by itself without being drowned in some sauce and I eat meat so rarely that I do not care how much something like veal costs. If it's warm outside, I sometimes crave a barbecue with bratwurst and beer.
In the past, a regular meal for me was based around grilled or fried meat or schnitzels and potatoes.
Years ago I was bored and tried to replace those packets with sauce mixes that I used to cook chili con carne and goulash. To make a pot of beans I basically mixed beans with water and stir fried minced meat and the powder from those packets.
After some research I bought the needed vegetables and managed to cook a pot of beans without those packet sauce mixes. I noticed a much improved flavor. I also noticed that the taste of meat was less important than cooking with fresh vegetables and started reducing the amount of minced meat I used per pot of beans. That came in handy, because the vegetables take up more volume than the packets of powder from the supermarket.
I got curious and started experimenting with vegetable side dishes for my regular meals. After finding ways to make side dishes that I liked, the number of schnitzels per day naturally decreased. I kinda got addicted to having a variety of stuff on my plate. I also experimented with what type of rice and what rice cooking method I like best and found something that could rival potatoes for me.
It just kinda happened that the schnitzels transformed from the main part of the meal to being the new side dish and then started to mostly completely disappear.
Now that I do not really care much for meat anymore, I can see how vegetarians could actually not be lying when they say they do not really miss their meaty past. And without cravings for meat it just makes sense to never buy meat.
Me personally, I'm actually probably just too lazy to cook with cheap meat. It does not taste good enough for the work I have to put into it in the kitchen. [I also find it a bit creepy how sensitive the human nose is to the smell of raw meat. You can smell which knife was used to cut up raw meat, if it's not cleaned very thoroughly, even though there is nothing visible on the blade.]
I had to register for this thread. Ive been a lurker for about 5+ years.
I'm 100% Vegan and 90% Raw. Someone on the page previous to this one asked about height/weight. For reference I'm 6 feet 185 lbs. Over the years I have had various tests run out of curiousity and as a precaution. Blood tests and everything else have always come back perfect. Doctor says don't change anything. Although at the start he didn't exactly reccomend it. This just goes to show one how little most people, even doctors know about nutrition. I've been to doctors in the past that are brainwashed into thinking we need meat. The same guys that are pushing drugs instead of actual real preventive health care.....hmmm -____-
Besides health and animals I'm a Raw Vegan because I'm also a minimalist. Nothing is easier than "preparing" an apple
There are alot of myths out there about meat/dairy and what those industires and uninformed people want us to believe we need. The most common question i get asked is where do I get my protein. It's a bit sad that most people are programmed to think that meat is the only source of protein the world has ever seen lol. I guess I can't blame them, after all I was that way until about 10 years ago. Most people go their whole lives and don't think too much about what they put in their bodies.
On April 13 2011 16:57 RawVeganYes wrote: I had to register for this thread. Ive been a lurker for about 5+ years.
I'm 100% Vegan and 90% Raw. Someone on the page previous to this one asked about height/weight. For reference I'm 6 feet 185 lbs. Over the years I have had various tests run out of curiousity and as a precaution. Blood tests and everything else have always come back perfect. Doctor says don't change anything. Although at the start he didn't exactly reccomend it. This just goes to show one how little most people, even doctors know about nutrition. I've been to doctors in the past that are brainwashed into thinking we need meat. The same guys that are pushing drugs instead of actual real preventive health care.....hmmm -____-
Besides health and animals I'm a Raw Vegan because I'm also a minimalist. Nothing is easier than "preparing" an apple
There are alot of myths out there about meat/dairy and what those industires and uninformed people want us to believe we need. The most common question i get asked is where do I get my protein. It's a bit sad that most people are programmed to think that meat is the only source of protein the world has ever seen lol. I guess I can't blame them, after all I was that way until about 10 years ago. Most people go their whole lives and don't think too much about what they put in their bodies.
Academic studies show, that the average vegan will run into more cardio-vascular problems than the average meat eater or vegetarian, vegetarians being the healthiest. Even raw is... not the best as cooking increases the bio availability of some nutrients.
On April 13 2011 16:57 RawVeganYes wrote: I had to register for this thread. Ive been a lurker for about 5+ years.
I'm 100% Vegan and 90% Raw. Someone on the page previous to this one asked about height/weight. For reference I'm 6 feet 185 lbs. Over the years I have had various tests run out of curiousity and as a precaution. Blood tests and everything else have always come back perfect. Doctor says don't change anything. Although at the start he didn't exactly reccomend it. This just goes to show one how little most people, even doctors know about nutrition. I've been to doctors in the past that are brainwashed into thinking we need meat. The same guys that are pushing drugs instead of actual real preventive health care.....hmmm -____-
Besides health and animals I'm a Raw Vegan because I'm also a minimalist. Nothing is easier than "preparing" an apple
There are alot of myths out there about meat/dairy and what those industires and uninformed people want us to believe we need. The most common question i get asked is where do I get my protein. It's a bit sad that most people are programmed to think that meat is the only source of protein the world has ever seen lol. I guess I can't blame them, after all I was that way until about 10 years ago. Most people go their whole lives and don't think too much about what they put in their bodies.
Raw Vegans are amazing. It sounds like a really happy and healthy lifestyle.
Raw food is actually pretty dangerous... There is a pretty good reason why all civilisations have heated up their food beyond 60 degrees; germs you know...
On April 13 2011 16:57 RawVeganYes wrote: I had to register for this thread. Ive been a lurker for about 5+ years.
I'm 100% Vegan and 90% Raw. Someone on the page previous to this one asked about height/weight. For reference I'm 6 feet 185 lbs. Over the years I have had various tests run out of curiousity and as a precaution. Blood tests and everything else have always come back perfect. Doctor says don't change anything. Although at the start he didn't exactly reccomend it. This just goes to show one how little most people, even doctors know about nutrition. I've been to doctors in the past that are brainwashed into thinking we need meat. The same guys that are pushing drugs instead of actual real preventive health care.....hmmm -____-
Besides health and animals I'm a Raw Vegan because I'm also a minimalist. Nothing is easier than "preparing" an apple
There are alot of myths out there about meat/dairy and what those industires and uninformed people want us to believe we need. The most common question i get asked is where do I get my protein. It's a bit sad that most people are programmed to think that meat is the only source of protein the world has ever seen lol. I guess I can't blame them, after all I was that way until about 10 years ago. Most people go their whole lives and don't think too much about what they put in their bodies.
Academic studies show, that the average vegan will run into more cardio-vascular problems than the average meat eater or vegetarian, vegetarians being the healthiest. Even raw is... not the best as cooking increases the bio availability of some nutrients.
You have some more research to do my friend. There are a SELECT few foods that benefit from cooking. However, in genergal cooking most foods decreases the nutritional value. Most foods lose a portion of their nutrients when cooked.
And your tid bit about heart problems. You have it backwards lol.
I'm not here to debate about being Raw and what it is about, or even being Vegan.
On April 13 2011 17:38 Ghostcom wrote: Raw food is actually pretty dangerous... There is a pretty good reason why all civilisations have heated up their food beyond 60 degrees; germs you know...
Now I regret posting. I don't understand why people post withought doing some research first. Of course there are a few SELECT foods that are dangerous raw. Do you think I eat those foods? A banana is raw, is that dangerous?
Also things are considered raw as long as they are not heated above 115 degrees. Some people have differing opinions on the exact temperature but that is about the max.
On April 13 2011 16:57 RawVeganYes wrote: I had to register for this thread. Ive been a lurker for about 5+ years.
I'm 100% Vegan and 90% Raw. Someone on the page previous to this one asked about height/weight. For reference I'm 6 feet 185 lbs. Over the years I have had various tests run out of curiousity and as a precaution. Blood tests and everything else have always come back perfect. Doctor says don't change anything. Although at the start he didn't exactly reccomend it. This just goes to show one how little most people, even doctors know about nutrition. I've been to doctors in the past that are brainwashed into thinking we need meat. The same guys that are pushing drugs instead of actual real preventive health care.....hmmm -____-
Besides health and animals I'm a Raw Vegan because I'm also a minimalist. Nothing is easier than "preparing" an apple
There are alot of myths out there about meat/dairy and what those industires and uninformed people want us to believe we need. The most common question i get asked is where do I get my protein. It's a bit sad that most people are programmed to think that meat is the only source of protein the world has ever seen lol. I guess I can't blame them, after all I was that way until about 10 years ago. Most people go their whole lives and don't think too much about what they put in their bodies.
Raw Vegans are amazing. It sounds like a really happy and healthy lifestyle.
Yes it's great and luckily I don't have to deal with some of the people in this thread on a day to day basis lol.
edit: sory for too many posts in a row. I'm a noob :/
On April 13 2011 16:57 RawVeganYes wrote: I had to register for this thread. Ive been a lurker for about 5+ years.
I'm 100% Vegan and 90% Raw. Someone on the page previous to this one asked about height/weight. For reference I'm 6 feet 185 lbs. Over the years I have had various tests run out of curiousity and as a precaution. Blood tests and everything else have always come back perfect. Doctor says don't change anything. Although at the start he didn't exactly reccomend it. This just goes to show one how little most people, even doctors know about nutrition. I've been to doctors in the past that are brainwashed into thinking we need meat. The same guys that are pushing drugs instead of actual real preventive health care.....hmmm -____-
Besides health and animals I'm a Raw Vegan because I'm also a minimalist. Nothing is easier than "preparing" an apple
There are alot of myths out there about meat/dairy and what those industires and uninformed people want us to believe we need. The most common question i get asked is where do I get my protein. It's a bit sad that most people are programmed to think that meat is the only source of protein the world has ever seen lol. I guess I can't blame them, after all I was that way until about 10 years ago. Most people go their whole lives and don't think too much about what they put in their bodies.
Academic studies show, that the average vegan will run into more cardio-vascular problems than the average meat eater or vegetarian, vegetarians being the healthiest. Even raw is... not the best as cooking increases the bio availability of some nutrients.
I would really like to see examples of these studies. My bet is that they come directly from the meat industry. I thought it was fairly common knowledge that increased cardio-vascular problems and heart disease is directly linked to the amount of meat an individual eats. That is why you see instances of heart disease and cardio-vascular problems so much higher in the West and nations that traditionally eat much larger quantities of meat.
Developing nations in the East are starting to see surges in the cases of heart disease, is it causality or merely coincidence that this correlates with increasing meat consumption? Its hard to say, but there is certainly little if any evidence linking consuption of plants to heart disease and cardio-vascular issues.
I have been an avid meat eater my entire life until very recently. I used to believe that meat provided essential elements of my diet that I simply could not get elsewhere. However, I began doing research and found the exact opposite to be more likely. Furthuremore, the increasingly inhuman way we produce meat also contributed to turning me away. I still eat meat occasionally, I haven't quite been able to stop quite yet. However, it is not nearly as difficult as I first thought.
On April 12 2011 04:10 mAgixWTF wrote: i stopped eating meat, eggs, fish and dairy products like 3 months ago, after i saw the best documentation ever made: Earthlings. + Show Spoiler +
Even after 3 months I sometimes have a hard time buying from a german supermarket, since almost every product uses animals. Like this one time I wanted to buy olives, but this big store only had olives which were drowned in lactic acid. A pineapple-mango smoothie, with milk! I even stopped buying products where i couldnt read and understand the ingredients-tables. And they are written in chinese for me
And last, but not least, I fear I am eating too much soy. Soy milk, soy yoghurt, tofu, soy sprouts. At least 2 times a day!
holy sh... im speechless with horror
i saw this video some years ago...i never felt so bad till this day
For any current Vegans or people looking to become Vegan their is a great website that ships worldwide I believe. veganessentials.com They even have raw stuff for me
Having a vegan alternative for everything from the start makes the process a whole lot easier for people switching over.
And of course i do not work for them in any way. Having a 1 stop shop is just nice though.
On April 13 2011 17:38 Ghostcom wrote: Raw food is actually pretty dangerous... There is a pretty good reason why all civilisations have heated up their food beyond 60 degrees; germs you know...
O god lol. These kinds of people. Now I regret posting. I don't understand why people post withought doing some research first. Of course there are a few SELECT foods that are dangerous raw. Do you think I eat those foods? A banana is raw, is that dangerous? thanks.
I'm not going into a lengthy debate about this, but I happen to work at the department of infectious diseases at a university hospital as a doctor, so I actually have a clue... There have been studies regarding raw-food where they compare it to cooked food and the conclusions were:
1) Raw-food lacks COMPLETELY in the vitamin D-department (you get it mostly from fish and eggs).
2) Betacaroten bloodlevel content is twice as high in asparagus, 3 times as high in onions and 5 times as high in carrots when they are cooked compared to raw.
3) It is pretty hard to get enough proteins and iron, just as it is with a vegan diet and you are going to lack in the long fatty chain department.
4) The thought that lies behind raw-food which is that enzymes are destroyed when heated above 42 degrees and that if you don't heat them above said temperature you can utilize said enzymes is wrong. The enzymes are destroyed anyhow as soon as they reach the acidic enviroment in your stomach.
This is not to belittle the choice you've made - you can eat whatever you want for me. It's merely the facts.
EDIT: And for the future, please keep your personal insults and belittling remarks at the door. There is really no reason for them and they only make you seem insecure >_>
And now, gogogogogo more recipies - I for one could definitely use more veggies in my diet and I'm looking for inspiration on how to make it more interesting
On April 13 2011 17:38 Ghostcom wrote: Raw food is actually pretty dangerous... There is a pretty good reason why all civilisations have heated up their food beyond 60 degrees; germs you know...
O god lol. These kinds of people. Now I regret posting. I don't understand why people post withought doing some research first. Of course there are a few SELECT foods that are dangerous raw. Do you think I eat those foods? A banana is raw, is that dangerous? thanks.
I'm not going into a lengthy debate about this, but I happen to work at the department of infectious diseases at a university hospital as a doctor, so I actually have a clue... There have been studies regarding raw-food where they compare it to cooked food and the conclusions were:
1) Raw-food lacks COMPLETELY in the vitamin D-department (you get it mostly from fish and eggs).
2) Betacaroten bloodlevel content is twice as high in asparagus, 3 times as high in onions and 5 times as high in carrots when they are cooked compared to raw.
3) It is pretty hard to get enough proteins and iron, just as it is with a vegan diet and you are going to lack in the long fatty chain department.
4) The thought that lies behind raw-food which is that enzymes are destroyed when heated above 42 degrees and that if you don't heat them above said temperature you can utilize said enzymes is wrong. The enzymes are destroyed anyhow as soon as they reach the acidic enviroment in your stomach.
This is not to belittle the choice you've made - you can eat whatever you want for me. It's merely the facts.
EDIT: And for the future, please keep your personal insults and belittling remarks at the door. There is really no reason for them and they only make you seem insecure >_>
And now, gogogogogo more recipies - I for one could definitely use more veggies in my diet and I'm looking for inspiration on how to make it more interesting
2) And that's not the only place you'll find higher bio-availability either. But the important point is that raw foods have a bettes nutrient profile by a wide margin - especially when it comes to trace nutrients.
3) This is incorrect. Look no further than the nutrition information for legumes and nuts.
I do agree that its important to have cooked meals (I have 1 per day that's heavy on the veggies, my other 3 being uncooked vegetarian meals)
On April 13 2011 17:38 Ghostcom wrote: Raw food is actually pretty dangerous... There is a pretty good reason why all civilisations have heated up their food beyond 60 degrees; germs you know...
O god lol. These kinds of people. Now I regret posting. I don't understand why people post withought doing some research first. Of course there are a few SELECT foods that are dangerous raw. Do you think I eat those foods? A banana is raw, is that dangerous? thanks.
I'm not going into a lengthy debate about this, but I happen to work at the department of infectious diseases at a university hospital as a doctor, so I actually have a clue... There have been studies regarding raw-food where they compare it to cooked food and the conclusions were:
1) Raw-food lacks COMPLETELY in the vitamin D-department (you get it mostly from fish and eggs).
2) Betacaroten bloodlevel content is twice as high in asparagus, 3 times as high in onions and 5 times as high in carrots when they are cooked compared to raw.
3) It is pretty hard to get enough proteins and iron, just as it is with a vegan diet and you are going to lack in the long fatty chain department.
4) The thought that lies behind raw-food which is that enzymes are destroyed when heated above 42 degrees and that if you don't heat them above said temperature you can utilize said enzymes is wrong. The enzymes are destroyed anyhow as soon as they reach the acidic enviroment in your stomach.
This is not to belittle the choice you've made - you can eat whatever you want for me. It's merely the facts.
EDIT: And for the future, please keep your personal insults and belittling remarks at the door. There is really no reason for them and they only make you seem insecure >_>
And now, gogogogogo more recipies - I for one could definitely use more veggies in my diet and I'm looking for inspiration on how to make it more interesting
1) Most people actually don’t get vitamin D from their diet, because it is produced naturally in the body after being exposed to sunlight
2) As I stated, there are a SELECT group of foods that have increased nutritional value when cooking them. As stated in my previous post I admitted that. However, as I said be4 MOST foods lose a portion of their nutritional content when cooked.
3) 1 oz. or my raw jungle peanuts has 7 grams of protein. Pumpkin seeds have an insane amount of iron and protein. Nuts and seeds are plenty to cover the iron and protein areas.
4) Just lol.
A poorly planned diet of ANY kind will be lacking.
Your facts are not facts.
edit: I did not bellitle anyone. I simply stated that people were coming in here misinformed and posting false ideas, as have you. You can chose to do as you please as will I. I am no better than anyone else. However this is a Vegan/veggie thread and when meat eaters come in posting nonsense telling us were wrong, then they need to be exposed.
There is no need to argue about this. Let's keep the thread friendly without telling people that what they are doing is wrong while providing false facts.
On April 13 2011 17:38 Ghostcom wrote: Raw food is actually pretty dangerous... There is a pretty good reason why all civilisations have heated up their food beyond 60 degrees; germs you know...
O god lol. These kinds of people. Now I regret posting. I don't understand why people post withought doing some research first. Of course there are a few SELECT foods that are dangerous raw. Do you think I eat those foods? A banana is raw, is that dangerous? thanks.
I'm not going into a lengthy debate about this, but I happen to work at the department of infectious diseases at a university hospital as a doctor, so I actually have a clue... There have been studies regarding raw-food where they compare it to cooked food and the conclusions were:
1) Raw-food lacks COMPLETELY in the vitamin D-department (you get it mostly from fish and eggs).
2) Betacaroten bloodlevel content is twice as high in asparagus, 3 times as high in onions and 5 times as high in carrots when they are cooked compared to raw.
3) It is pretty hard to get enough proteins and iron, just as it is with a vegan diet and you are going to lack in the long fatty chain department.
4) The thought that lies behind raw-food which is that enzymes are destroyed when heated above 42 degrees and that if you don't heat them above said temperature you can utilize said enzymes is wrong. The enzymes are destroyed anyhow as soon as they reach the acidic enviroment in your stomach.
This is not to belittle the choice you've made - you can eat whatever you want for me. It's merely the facts.
EDIT: And for the future, please keep your personal insults and belittling remarks at the door. There is really no reason for them and they only make you seem insecure >_>
And now, gogogogogo more recipies - I for one could definitely use more veggies in my diet and I'm looking for inspiration on how to make it more interesting
1) Most people actually don’t get vitamin D from their diet, because it is produced naturally in the body after being exposed to sunlight
2) As I stated, there are a SELECT group of foods that have increased nutritional value when cooking them. As stated in my previous post I admitted that. However, as I said be4 most foods lose a portion of their nutritional content when cooked.
3) 1 oz. or my raw jungle peanuts has 7 grams of protein. Thanks though. Pumpkin seeds have an insane amount of iron and protein. Nuts and seeds are plenty to cover the iron and protein areas.
4) Just lol.
A poorly planned diet or any kind will be lacking.
Your facts are not facts.
If you really want to have this discussion I will be more than happy to do it in PMs, but I'm not willing to derail this thread any further.
But I will leave you with this:
1) 80% of the Scandinavian population is vitamin D-deficient, the sun is pretty far from being enough for the vast majority of the western civilizations population, the dietary intake is fairly important as well.
2) Your select group of foods is a lot bigger than you make it sound.
3) Congratulations? See the explanation about essential aminoacids written by someone else further up. I'm not saying it's impossible to get enough protein, just that it is very hard. There is a reason why one of the central questions are if people are having special diets when admitting them to the hospital - and attempt at good service isn't the one...
4) Glad to make you happy - yet that is the most used pseudo-scientific argument for why raw-food is TEH SHIZZLE. And as with many other pseudo-scientific arguments it's wrong.
Again, if you want to eat raw-food, be my guest, if it makes you happy, well congratulations - I'm not here to "turn you around". I'm originally here to steal your recipies, but when I see someone praising a potentially dangerous and lifethreatening diet I feel I have to voice my concerns that people eating raw-food run the risk of deficiencysyndroms unless they plan carefully.
I've been a vegetarian for soon two years now and it's been one of the best choices I ever made. Even though I think the animal ethics in society today is horrible I think the very biggest reason for me that made me switch is the environmental fact. The further I got in my academic environmental/biology studies I just felt worse and worse about supporting the meat industry which is one of the biggest environmental problems in every country around the world today and felt like I needed to put enough effort in so that I was a much smaller part of the problem.
For me it's sad that with the knowledge we have today about how closely related and similar living beings are most still only care about other human beings. Anyone with a clear ethical perspective and enough eduction should understand that not only humans should have room to live and thrive on this planet.
On April 13 2011 17:38 Ghostcom wrote: Raw food is actually pretty dangerous... There is a pretty good reason why all civilisations have heated up their food beyond 60 degrees; germs you know...
O god lol. These kinds of people. Now I regret posting. I don't understand why people post withought doing some research first. Of course there are a few SELECT foods that are dangerous raw. Do you think I eat those foods? A banana is raw, is that dangerous? thanks.
I'm not going into a lengthy debate about this, but I happen to work at the department of infectious diseases at a university hospital as a doctor, so I actually have a clue... There have been studies regarding raw-food where they compare it to cooked food and the conclusions were:
1) Raw-food lacks COMPLETELY in the vitamin D-department (you get it mostly from fish and eggs).
2) Betacaroten bloodlevel content is twice as high in asparagus, 3 times as high in onions and 5 times as high in carrots when they are cooked compared to raw.
3) It is pretty hard to get enough proteins and iron, just as it is with a vegan diet and you are going to lack in the long fatty chain department.
4) The thought that lies behind raw-food which is that enzymes are destroyed when heated above 42 degrees and that if you don't heat them above said temperature you can utilize said enzymes is wrong. The enzymes are destroyed anyhow as soon as they reach the acidic enviroment in your stomach.
This is not to belittle the choice you've made - you can eat whatever you want for me. It's merely the facts.
EDIT: And for the future, please keep your personal insults and belittling remarks at the door. There is really no reason for them and they only make you seem insecure >_>
And now, gogogogogo more recipies - I for one could definitely use more veggies in my diet and I'm looking for inspiration on how to make it more interesting
1) Most people actually don’t get vitamin D from their diet, because it is produced naturally in the body after being exposed to sunlight
2) As I stated, there are a SELECT group of foods that have increased nutritional value when cooking them. As stated in my previous post I admitted that. However, as I said be4 most foods lose a portion of their nutritional content when cooked.
3) 1 oz. or my raw jungle peanuts has 7 grams of protein. Thanks though. Pumpkin seeds have an insane amount of iron and protein. Nuts and seeds are plenty to cover the iron and protein areas.
4) Just lol.
A poorly planned diet or any kind will be lacking.
Your facts are not facts.
If you really want to have this discussion I will be more than happy to do it in PMs, but I'm not willing to derail this thread any further.
But I will leave you with this:
1) 80% of the Scandinavian population is vitamin D-deficient, the sun is pretty far from being enough for the vast majority of the western civilizations population, the dietary intake is fairly important as well.
2) Your select group of foods is a lot bigger than you make it sound.
3) Congratulations? See the explanation about essential aminoacids written by someone else further up. I'm not saying it's impossible to get enough protein, just that it is very hard. There is a reason why one of the central questions are if people are having special diets when admitting them to the hospital - and attempt at good service isn't the one...
4) Glad to make you happy - yet that is the most used pseudo-scientific argument for why raw-food is TEH SHIZZLE. And as with many other pseudo-scientific arguments it's wrong.
Again, if you want to eat raw-food, be my guest, if it makes you happy, well congratulations - I'm not here to "turn you around". I'm originally here to steal your recipies, but when I see someone praising a potentially dangerous and lifethreatening diet I feel I have to voice my concerns that people eating raw-food run the risk of deficiencysyndroms unless they plan carefully.
1) I live in California. I am Raw Vegan. I am not deficient in vitamin D (nor anything else). If this is a problem for someone, then take a vegan multi vitamin. Case closed.
2) You named about 3 foods that benefit from cooking out of thousands. There is a reasons why there are only a handful of specific known foods that benefit from cooking. It is because it is generally known that the cooking process in MOST foods DESTROYS some nutrients. Otherewise it would be the other way aorund and they would be listing the handful of few specific foods that are more nutrient dense raw. But this isnt the case. Becuase infact, MOST foods are more nutritious raw.
As I already stated some foods can't be eaten raw. So don't eat them....
3) Again a poorly planned diet of any kind will be lacking and dangerous. Getting the proper amino acids is not a problem with minimal research. I'm not sure why you are making it out to be. It involves a few minutes of research and then eating the food.
If someone can't be bothered to do the reseach or for peace of mind, then take "Sunwarrior" raw vegan protein powder for a complete amino acid profile. Case closed.
You make it seem like by eating raw vegan food I'm eating food from Mars or something. I eat Raw fruits and veggies just like you do (as well as seeds, nuts, some raw food bars, a small amount of supplements etc). I simply do not eat cooked or non vegan food (most of the time, see below).
As I stated I am 100% Vegan and 90% raw. So I do eat cooked vegan food on occasion and do take a small amount of supplements for peace of mind. I am not here to preach. Veggie, Vegan, Raw Vegan... its all good to me. Hell if you want to eat meat I dont care. Everyone has a choice.
Supplementing is not required all the time, but for beginers or peace of mind it can be done There is no shame in it. People of all walks of life take some form of supplements be it red bull, coffee, herbs, prescription drugs etc etc.
I had hoped this thread would not turn into a shitstorm. And that it would be a great source of information and recipes. However, I expected it. This is why I do not generally talk about veganism in general forums or online at all. Hell even talking with people in person can be laughable. Meat eaters always come and tell us were wrong with "facts" that they heard from some study done by some people funded by the meat and dairy industy. People are so close minded lots of times and have their blinders on regarding this subject. Stepping outside of their comfort zone and doing some actual non biased research isnt something alot of people like to do. People like to do what they have always done. There are lots of common sense reasons why eating meat and dairy is not "needed" in the video below. Its the most basic of common sense that it can't be debated.
Peace and Love and Peace out
P.S. I will leave you all with this video. It provides a wealth of information on vegnanism in general. The best video on this subject I have seen.
On April 12 2011 20:13 VIB wrote: I'm one of those who keep trying to become vegetarian but fails. Nothing to do with the taste, vegetarian food is awesome. The big problem is that it's hard as hell to make/buy good vegetarian food compared to unhealthy stuff.
It's 10x easier to just throw a beef in the pan with olive oil and some simple spices than it is to try to cook one of those awesome indian curry filled vegetables that I don't even know the name of.
I've been cooking for over an year, and found it's a general rule that making unhealthy food is just easy. Cooking stuff that tastes awesome but is unhealth is ridiculously easy, anyone can do it. Cooking stuff that is just healthy, but doesn't taste great, that is easy too. The problem is trying to cook stuff that is both healthy and taste good. It's too hard and time consuming. The real good vegetarian meals have like 10 or 15 spices to it. It's hard to get it right.
I do avoid meat as much as I can. But I with sometimes I wish didn't get lazy and just fry a steak because it's easier. Just like the one I just made yesterday for today's lunch
Any tips for people trying to cook simple vegetarian dishes that both taste great and are just as easy to make as frying a steak? ^^
This shouldn't have to be true. I think most chefs will say a steak/meat/fish is easier to do wrong than vegetables. The main thing about cooking vegetarian diets is to put the ingredients in the right order, so they all have the right consistency, and to turn it off on time so that it doesn't burn/cook to pulp. So I really don't see why you think it is easier to make a steak than an indian curry. Even if they curry burns on the bottom of the pan, it is still fine.
The main issue for many people may be is that they take their old dishes, take the meat out, and go from there. I don't know what you try to cook and why it is unhealthy. But let me present my way of thinking about food. Also, vegetarian or not, there is always the challenge of cooking creatively, fast and healthy.
First, I don't think in terms of dishes. I think in terms of ingredients. In the end you may see that every dish is just a variation of the same thing. Pasta, noodles, curry, chili, nachos, etc.
Ingredients I group in several categories. a) dairy (and I guess egg too) b) mushrooms c) vegetables
Then the vegetable section is split into 4 groups: 1) starchy vegetables (rice, potato, grains, corn) 2) protein vegetables (beans, legumes, etc) 3) healthy vegetables (all the low calory nutrious stuff) 4) fruits (are high in calories like advocado)
A tomato is low on calories but technically a fruit. You can't equal an advocado with an eggplant. In the kichen a tomato is condidered a vegetable and not a fruit, but alas.
The main thing I do is build around the healthy vegetables. You need to embrace those. If you don't, you won't be able to eat healthy, vegetarian or not. My personal favorites are broccoli, eggplant and carrot. You need to find yours.
Then I need to add something to fill me up. If I eat purely heathy vegetables I will stay hungry and eat unhealthy snacks. So in the starchy category I pick one. Be it rice, noodles, couscous, pasta, potatos, etc. Pancake, pizza, wraps, tortilla, nachos all fall in this category. Category 2 I don't always use. But they help fill up while being lower on carbs. Tofu would also be in this category.
Then the dairy products are mostly icing on the cake and mushrooms I personally don't use a lot.
How how are things the same? Take a curry. You make a stew of vegetables. Traditional vegetables for curry are onion, cauliflower, potato, green beans, bell pepper/chili. But if you change the ingredients to onion, tomato, squash, bell pepper and carrot, how is it different from ratatouille? Sure, spices and how soft you cook it. Often for me these are the same dish. I just add different spices. And if you take the ratatouille vegetables and fry them a bit in a pan and you eat them with pasta then you suddenly have a pasta dish. In that case I like to add cheese. And then pasta and noodles are basically the same thing. And then you have grain noodles and rice noodles. And rice and rice noodles are the same thing. SO the circle is round.
If you add rice to the curry then it is a pullao or biryani. Biryani and other rice dishes like paella and risotto are also similar. You can fry the rice or not. You can keep the rice and the vegetable/spices/sause mix seperate, or put them together.
Pancake, wraps, pizza are also basically the same.
Then you have lasagna which is also considered a form of pasta. And lasagna and moussaka are also very similar. And here there are similarities again with a vegetable stew.
So you can use the same procedure with different ingredients or a different procedure with the same ingredients.
Then you also have soups which are watery stews. If a soup isn't a watery stew because it is just water with a taste and colour then it can't be the main dish and I don't like to make several courses because it just takes more time.
I think in the end it mainly comes down to becoming more used to cooking meals different from the ones you are used to making. It is always hard to change habits.
As for the protein myth. It comes from the fact that there are no vegetables that have a good balance of all essential amino acids. Meat does have this. This means you need to eat more than 2 types of vegetables within 24 hours or so. If you do the body will always be able to create all amino acid chains. Many non-meat products have a lot of protein and minerals like calcium, iron, etc. Western diets have too much protein in them anyway. Too much protein isn't necessarily unhealthy like too much fat, but the fact remains people that eat meat often get too much rather than vegetarians too little.
As for bodybuilding. Don't they eat whey protein shakes anyway to overdose on protein? There's vegetarian bodybuilders and so there are vegetarian triathletes, etc. For extreme athletes that have to have extreme diets it is often better to leave out red meat anyway.
EPT
