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GiantEnemyCrab
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada503 Posts
March 26 2011 23:41 GMT
#61
the problem is the community with overwhelming expectations. some people here expect everything should be done 100% perfect. instead of crying, try appreciating that there is a TSL and you are getting to watch this players play in the first place.

another thing i hate is that there are alot of Day9 fanboys out there who want EVERY caster to be a replica of him. day9 is good in his dailies but plz i kno alot of people enjoy listening to the entertaining cast rather then analytical during this tournament.

lastly, give credit where its due. i cant believe people are disappointed that the koreans lost. they are not perfect.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
eoLithic
Profile Joined July 2010
Norway221 Posts
March 26 2011 23:42 GMT
#62
On March 27 2011 08:33 fire_brand wrote:
I think the Korea vs Foreigners thing is the biggest storyline of the tournament, and I have no problem with his emphasis on this. Commentators jobs are to make the game as exciting as possible and I think that a lot of that excitement comes from the David vs Goliath thing. The Koreans are the Goliaths and the foreigners are the Davids and focusing on this a technique by the casters to pump of the fans. I have no problem with this, he's doing his job, and his excitement I'm sure transfers a lot over to the fans.

I think chill did a great job. But you know, haters gonna hate.


I am by no means hating on Chill. Making me look like troll is not the way to go. I emphasised that I love Chill and think the commentating part was good.

Do not claim that I am a "hater" when I am clearly not hating on Chill.
"You`re a pro or you`re a noob...that`s life"
Wohmfg
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom1292 Posts
March 26 2011 23:44 GMT
#63
On March 27 2011 08:33 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2011 08:27 intergalactic wrote:
You know what's annoying? People who should cheer for their foreigner-kin, since they don't have many opportunities to do so, and instead, find every and any possible excuse as to why koreans shouldn't have lost and foreigners are undeserving. What the hell man, for once the koreans aren't DOMINATING everyone else, and people actually talk about lag and such? I feel like it was Chill's responsability to point out how much the foreigners are doing well against koreans for once.

I mean, even the koreans are being mannered, and so far, they are saying they underestimated the foreigners etc.


I don't know about you, but it feels slightly dirty when the conditions were as they were.

It's like if you had a boxing champion who usually owns it up all the time, and some underdog who usually loses to the champion. One day they have a showmatch, but the champion is sick or something and loses. Then all the fans of the underdog praise him when he wins, saying, "Oh wow, he did so well against the champion!"

Doesn't that feel wrong? It sure does to me. I know for sure that when I'm playing something competitively and I win under unfair conditions and everyone blindly compliments me, I feel a bit dirty and kind of annoyed at the shortsightedness of people. For instance, back when I played badminton competitively, I beat one of the best players on my team even though she was kind of sick and had a wrist injury. People were like, "Wow dude you're so good!" and were talking about how much better player I had become, but I knew that I only won because of the unfair conditions, and I felt pretty annoyed at all the people simply jumping to conclusions without looking at the situation objectively.

That's just how I am, and I'm pretty sure that people with a similar mentality to mine see this situation in a similar light.


Because lag only affects Koreans.
BW4Life!
Logarythm
Profile Joined November 2010
United States264 Posts
March 26 2011 23:45 GMT
#64
I agree that the Koreans didn't practice as hard as the foreigners specifically for this event. imho, this is why the foreigners were able to do as well as they did.
Making bad decisions.
cordlc
Profile Joined November 2010
United States360 Posts
March 26 2011 23:47 GMT
#65
Honestly I think it'd normally be fine, it's complimenting to the Koreans after all (as they're acknowledging that foreigners are the underdogs), but when coupled with the latency issue it's definitely annoying to hear, since the conclusions are based on games that weren't played in optimal conditions.

I often cheer for the foreigners, but watching them beat the struggling, lagged Koreans today was horrible. It's a shame, because I was initially so excited about the Korean invites, now I think it was a mistake...

If the foreigners manage to own it up in the GOMtv World Tournament, I guarantee you there won't be this sort of controversy.
intergalactic
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada428 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-26 23:48:48
March 26 2011 23:48 GMT
#66
On March 27 2011 08:33 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2011 08:27 intergalactic wrote:
You know what's annoying? People who should cheer for their foreigner-kin, since they don't have many opportunities to do so, and instead, find every and any possible excuse as to why koreans shouldn't have lost and foreigners are undeserving. What the hell man, for once the koreans aren't DOMINATING everyone else, and people actually talk about lag and such? I feel like it was Chill's responsability to point out how much the foreigners are doing well against koreans for once.

I mean, even the koreans are being mannered, and so far, they are saying they underestimated the foreigners etc.


I don't know about you, but it feels slightly dirty when the conditions were as they were.

It's like if you had a boxing champion who usually owns it up all the time, and some underdog who usually loses to the champion. One day they have a showmatch, but the champion is sick or something and loses. Then all the fans of the underdog praise him when he wins, saying, "Oh wow, he did so well against the champion!"

Doesn't that feel wrong? It sure does to me. I know for sure that when I'm playing something competitively and I win under unfair conditions and everyone blindly compliments me, I feel a bit dirty and kind of annoyed at the shortsightedness of people. For instance, back when I played badminton competitively, I beat one of the best players on my team even though she was kind of sick and had a wrist injury. People were like, "Wow dude you're so good!" and were talking about how much better player I had become, but I knew that I only won because of the unfair conditions, and I felt pretty annoyed at all the people simply jumping to conclusions without looking at the situation objectively.

That's just how I am, and I'm pretty sure that people with a similar mentality to mine see this situation in a similar light.


What? Are you referring to lag? You are comparing two extremely different situations and rationalizing subjectively.
1- Two people competing in a sport, one of them is sick and the other wins.
2- Two people playing online game, one of them has 0.3 sec delay more than the other. They were alternating servers so the delay advantage is split. The underdogs wins with convincing 2-0 macro games, where micro wasn't a deciding factor.

How is this even comparable? Why do you feel you need to defend the koreans' disadvantage, when even they don't feel the need to defend themselves?
If you value your soul, do not look into the eye of an horse
covote
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States86 Posts
March 26 2011 23:49 GMT
#67
i was not around during the BW days and was only vaguely aware of the korean dominance from a friend who did play BW, so when i found this site several months ago and realized that i needed to go watch some korean play i did. I seen a very noticeable difference in skill level, even then in my extreme noob eyes. Now I watch a lot more pro games and i notice the difference less but i can still see that the korean players are usually quicker and have better unit control. ( granted i watch a lot of low pro level in the foreign scene and only watch Koreans in GSL)

I would say what the foreign scene has going for it is a lot of creativity and more unusual builds that the koreans may not have been ready for. all three foreigners today played kind of unorthodox.

I know its been said before but foreigners practice differently from koreans, and im interested to see where this difference will take us in the years to come.
Klive5ive
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom6056 Posts
March 26 2011 23:50 GMT
#68
From a hype point of view it's exactly what they wanted.
Everyone loves upsets and the Korean vs Foreigner storyline plays on national pride which a lot of people feel so it's just a great storyline.
I don't think Chill did anything wrong by emphasisng the storyline. You may not like it but I bet a lot of people did and that's what they'll be talking about at School/College/Work tomorrow.
That's what matters.
Don't hate the player - Hate the game
Nayl
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada413 Posts
March 26 2011 23:50 GMT
#69
On March 27 2011 08:44 Wohmfg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2011 08:33 HolyArrow wrote:
On March 27 2011 08:27 intergalactic wrote:
You know what's annoying? People who should cheer for their foreigner-kin, since they don't have many opportunities to do so, and instead, find every and any possible excuse as to why koreans shouldn't have lost and foreigners are undeserving. What the hell man, for once the koreans aren't DOMINATING everyone else, and people actually talk about lag and such? I feel like it was Chill's responsability to point out how much the foreigners are doing well against koreans for once.

I mean, even the koreans are being mannered, and so far, they are saying they underestimated the foreigners etc.


I don't know about you, but it feels slightly dirty when the conditions were as they were.

It's like if you had a boxing champion who usually owns it up all the time, and some underdog who usually loses to the champion. One day they have a showmatch, but the champion is sick or something and loses. Then all the fans of the underdog praise him when he wins, saying, "Oh wow, he did so well against the champion!"

Doesn't that feel wrong? It sure does to me. I know for sure that when I'm playing something competitively and I win under unfair conditions and everyone blindly compliments me, I feel a bit dirty and kind of annoyed at the shortsightedness of people. For instance, back when I played badminton competitively, I beat one of the best players on my team even though she was kind of sick and had a wrist injury. People were like, "Wow dude you're so good!" and were talking about how much better player I had become, but I knew that I only won because of the unfair conditions, and I felt pretty annoyed at all the people simply jumping to conclusions without looking at the situation objectively.

That's just how I am, and I'm pretty sure that people with a similar mentality to mine see this situation in a similar light.


Because lag only affects Koreans.


It's been said multiple times EU-NA is better than KR-NA.

Also, Lag definitely came to play in Genius/Nestea's games. Multiple occasions you can see Nesteas army dancing around Goody's forces needlessly; I don't think Nestea would be dumb enough to constantly get hit by tank/hellions and react that slowly.

I do agree that Chill was biased against Koreans, talking constantly about the drama between the two. While I think it would've been better as you said if he kept to the games instead of focusing on nationality for the spirit of being an international event, lot of people on TL enjoy drama like this and I'm sure Chill was doing it unconsciously in his excitement.
Psychlone
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada90 Posts
March 26 2011 23:51 GMT
#70
We'll see how it goes under other conditions, but seeing how well some foreigners already perform at the GSL (TLO, Jinro, Idra) and then seeing Tyler destroy Jinro or other situations like that, I don't see how Koreans are that much better anymore.

In BW they owned because you had to be a kid with 300 apm to win at this game. You needed sick mental energy to play that fast. But SC2 has much more forgiving mechanics and rewards decision making much more, allowing for older more strategical and wise player to do well.

Just my 2 cents.
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
March 26 2011 23:53 GMT
#71
On March 27 2011 08:48 intergalactic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2011 08:33 HolyArrow wrote:
On March 27 2011 08:27 intergalactic wrote:
You know what's annoying? People who should cheer for their foreigner-kin, since they don't have many opportunities to do so, and instead, find every and any possible excuse as to why koreans shouldn't have lost and foreigners are undeserving. What the hell man, for once the koreans aren't DOMINATING everyone else, and people actually talk about lag and such? I feel like it was Chill's responsability to point out how much the foreigners are doing well against koreans for once.

I mean, even the koreans are being mannered, and so far, they are saying they underestimated the foreigners etc.


I don't know about you, but it feels slightly dirty when the conditions were as they were.

It's like if you had a boxing champion who usually owns it up all the time, and some underdog who usually loses to the champion. One day they have a showmatch, but the champion is sick or something and loses. Then all the fans of the underdog praise him when he wins, saying, "Oh wow, he did so well against the champion!"

Doesn't that feel wrong? It sure does to me. I know for sure that when I'm playing something competitively and I win under unfair conditions and everyone blindly compliments me, I feel a bit dirty and kind of annoyed at the shortsightedness of people. For instance, back when I played badminton competitively, I beat one of the best players on my team even though she was kind of sick and had a wrist injury. People were like, "Wow dude you're so good!" and were talking about how much better player I had become, but I knew that I only won because of the unfair conditions, and I felt pretty annoyed at all the people simply jumping to conclusions without looking at the situation objectively.

That's just how I am, and I'm pretty sure that people with a similar mentality to mine see this situation in a similar light.


What? Are you referring to lag? You are comparing two extremely different situations and rationalizing subjectively.
1- Two people competing in a sport, one of them is sick and the other wins.
2- Two people playing online game, one of them has 0.3 sec delay more than the other. They were alternating servers so the delay advantage is split. The underdogs wins with convincing 2-0 macro games, where micro wasn't a deciding factor.

How is this even comparable? Why do you feel you need to defend the koreans' disadvantage, when even they don't feel the need to defend themselves?


The lag looked pretty obvious as I watched the games. Like, I've seen plenty of anecdotal evidence regarding KR having much worse lag issues than EU, such as BoxeR, FXOpen, ddoro, IdrA, and Loner's coach all mentioning it. But I'm not even going to base my argument off of that. I'm going to base my argument off of things I clearly saw happen in games, such as amateur mistakes by MVP losing his reaper to probes, Genius's lagfields, or MVP's subpar MM kiting. Also, they were not alternating servers as far as I know. It was always on the NA server - I've seen this clarified many times.

And micro is a big deciding factor in macro games. It ALL comes together to affect a game broadly. Small engagements that involve micro play huge roles in deciding the flow of a macro game. To disregard micro and say "Oh, but they won in macro games" shows that you have little understanding of how Starcraft 2 works and flows as a whole.
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
March 26 2011 23:54 GMT
#72
Let's focus our anger at blizzard. TSL was just making the most of a mediocre situation caused by Rob Pardo's arbitrary ego trip a la "you REALLY want LAN?"
Black Gun
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Germany4482 Posts
March 26 2011 23:55 GMT
#73
i didnt get annoyed by chills emphasis on this theme, but i think many ppl are overestimating the significance of todays results. most well-known foreigners have played hundreds of games in various smaller foreigner events like craftcups. if a korean would be willing to prepare perfectly for his foreigner opponent, he could easily find more material about him than the foreigner could find about the korean.

that the koreans seemed unprepared for the style of play they were facing to me shows that they didnt give their best in preparing for the tsl games, either because of a conscious decision about their priorities or because of arrogance, who knows. additionally, they were probably more affected by lag than the europeans. but, as has been pointed out before, this is no excuse for the high amount of really bad decisions they´ve made today.

"What am I supposed to do against this?" - "Lose!" :-]
Sylverin
Profile Joined February 2011
United States480 Posts
March 26 2011 23:56 GMT
#74
Without bothering to quote Incontrol, what he said. <3
You(OP)are not a hater you are a fan with slightly above average love. :D

Having very little scbw watching myself, (watched mainly Wc3) I think what he did is absolutely great. Chill and husky did their jobs with superb excitement and enthusiasm. This mentioning of "Foreigner vs Korea" is the history of starcraft. To not explain it would be a disservice to our sport. If the lag was truly an issue the gamers themselves will make a post and make it public that they thought they lost due to lag. Reguardless all of this including my own post are opinions and as we all know opinions are like assholes everyone has one and they all smell

Their job is not to say "He is making 10 banelings, will it work?" its to say "HE IS MAKING 10 BANELINGS THE MARINES ARE COMING UP THE RAMP OMG THEY ARE ALL DEADDDD WILL HE WINNNNN!?!?!?!?!?!?"

TL/dr: commentator's jobs are one of two things They are HYPE they make everything said, done, and felt in a game come alive. The second thing is that they bring things that casual observers wouldn't see because they lack experience with the game I.E. A football commentator explaining how a certain rule works.
Liquid hero <3////Brotoss Protoss!
Mabius
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada323 Posts
March 26 2011 23:58 GMT
#75
I thought the point of having an open and free discussion on these forums was to improve upon things so they are even better in the future? The OP has the right to speak his mind and didn't break any TL rules from my understanding. He simply voiced his concern that he thought the casting today came off as somewhat of a biased and negative tone towards one segment of the player base.

I also felt the same way and even at one point on a different topic all together he said something along the lines of " I always thought of Naniwa as a dick" or something along those lines. He still said that he started to like him after so I'm not trying to make him sound totally unprofessional but I guess the point is crude commentary sometimes can come off leaving a bad taste in viewers mouths. If they want to hype the whole korea vs rest of the world angle more power to them but I guess the approach needs to be tweaked imo..

If anything the most alarming thing I've noticed these days on TL are the amount of people who blindly defend others and call for threads to be closed and question any topic created that points to some sort of criticism, I know this isn't a democracy, it's a forum with rules moderator law etc. but if you ask me open criticism is what makes things better in the long run, not some sort place where its taboo to make valid criticisms towards things
"Every revolution carries within it the seeds of it's own destruction.. and empires that rise will one day fall"
eoLithic
Profile Joined July 2010
Norway221 Posts
March 26 2011 23:59 GMT
#76
On March 27 2011 08:55 Black Gun wrote:
i didnt get annoyed by chills emphasis on this theme, but i think many ppl are overestimating the significance of todays results. most well-known foreigners have played hundreds of games in various smaller foreigner events like craftcups. if a korean would be willing to prepare perfectly for his foreigner opponent, he could easily find more material about him than the foreigner could find about the korean.

that the koreans seemed unprepared for the style of play they were facing to me shows that they didnt give their best in preparing for the tsl games, either because of a conscious decision about their priorities or because of arrogance, who knows. additionally, they were probably more affected by lag than the europeans. but, as has been pointed out before, this is no excuse for the high amount of really bad decisions they´ve made today.



It was 3 game. As the Starcraft community usually sais concerning conclusion drawn from few games: not enough!

3 games are simply no excuse to go on a 3 hour long story telling session about how the gap all of a sudden dissapeared.
"You`re a pro or you`re a noob...that`s life"
eoLithic
Profile Joined July 2010
Norway221 Posts
March 27 2011 00:00 GMT
#77
On March 27 2011 08:56 Sylverin wrote:
Without bothering to quote Incontrol, what he said. <3
You(OP)are not a hater you are a fan with slightly above average love. :D

Having very little scbw watching myself, (watched mainly Wc3) I think what he did is absolutely great. Chill and husky did their jobs with superb excitement and enthusiasm. This mentioning of "Foreigner vs Korea" is the history of starcraft. To not explain it would be a disservice to our sport. If the lag was truly an issue the gamers themselves will make a post and make it public that they thought they lost due to lag. Reguardless all of this including my own post are opinions and as we all know opinions are like assholes everyone has one and they all smell

Their job is not to say "He is making 10 banelings, will it work?" its to say "HE IS MAKING 10 BANELINGS THE MARINES ARE COMING UP THE RAMP OMG THEY ARE ALL DEADDDD WILL HE WINNNNN!?!?!?!?!?!?"

TL/dr: commentator's jobs are one of two things They are HYPE they make everything said, done, and felt in a game come alive. The second thing is that they bring things that casual observers wouldn't see because they lack experience with the game I.E. A football commentator explaining how a certain rule works.


It`s ok to some extend. Stop making it seem like I do not tolerate the hype at all, beacuse I do =D

Probably the reason why i have not posted this earlier.
"You`re a pro or you`re a noob...that`s life"
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
March 27 2011 00:01 GMT
#78
what is wrong with the casters creating a rivalry between koreans and foreigners? it makes it more enjoyable and intense even though the players themselves may not think of it as a rivalry. its not like they were completely biased in favor of foreigners. a lot of korean players are hyped a lot and people want to see them play. also, there is a korean stream for TSL. are you saying that they shouldn't hype for korean players? seems a little ridiculous to me. just reporting whats happening on the stream is kinda boring. hype the players, create some rivalries and make the streams entertaining.
baoluvboa
Profile Joined December 2010
743 Posts
March 27 2011 00:02 GMT
#79
The commentators (Chill and Husky) were so biased it was disgusting to watch even compared to Tastosis. At least Tastosis give Koreans some real backgrounds and insights to their build or lack of due to w/e problem they had. It was like watching the foreigner's pov vods.
Nayl
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada413 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-27 00:09:31
March 27 2011 00:04 GMT
#80
On March 27 2011 09:01 dAPhREAk wrote:
what is wrong with the casters creating a rivalry between koreans and foreigners? it makes it more enjoyable and intense even though the players themselves may not think of it as a rivalry. its not like they were completely biased in favor of foreigners. a lot of korean players are hyped a lot and people want to see them play. also, there is a korean stream for TSL. are you saying that they shouldn't hype for korean players? seems a little ridiculous to me. just reporting whats happening on the stream is kinda boring. hype the players, create some rivalries and make the streams entertaining.


Because it makes Korean viewers irritated when watching TSL. (as well as people like OP) It's not just watched by people in NA/EU. Nothing wrong with drama itself, but when it gets mentioned excessively, it does get a bit annoying.
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IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
TLPD

1. ByuN
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5. Stats
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9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
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3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
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