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Oh good, we found something else to complain about <3
I can't say it bothered me at all, I'm willing to bet it's what went through the minds of a lot of people, I'd expect the Koreans to focus on it as well from the other end. And it actually is kind of exciting the foreigners didn't get run over I feel. The casters are first and foremost fans too, which is the whole reason they're strutting their awesome stuff for us, so I can't blame them too much for getting into it.
Besides, what's a professional SC2 caster anyways, you've seen Tastosis (who I absolutely love) right? It's also a bit about catering to your audience. And as such, now they know it bothered people they can take it into consideration, so that's good I guess. Wouldn't call it unprofessional though.
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On March 27 2011 10:28 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 10:23 BasilPesto wrote:On March 27 2011 10:19 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 27 2011 10:09 BasilPesto wrote:On March 27 2011 10:05 Kimaker wrote:
For the FIRST time, we see foreigners successfully competing with Koreans... What about Jinro and Idra in past GSLs? On March 27 2011 10:07 dAPhREAk wrote:
... calling someone unprofessional is offensive... Calling someone unprofessional need not necessarily be offensive. After all, what if someone actually is unprofessional? calling an idiot "idiot" is still offensive whether it is true or not. whats your point? Well, I can see what your point is. You're saying that because feelings can get hurt, we should refrain from all criticism, whether someone is "unprofessional", "immoral", "incomphensible", etc. Because afterall, said person puts in a lot of time and dedication, so they should be protected at all costs. My point is that criticism can be fair game. I'm not even sure how valid the criticism is in this case, but the OP has approached it reasonably--it's not an obvious troll, is it? the only point i was trying to make was that tl.net, chill, husky and a multitude of other people have contributed a lot of time and sweat into making the TSL. months have been dedicated to it. and then, in a post that took exactly 15 seconds, a poster insulted them by referring to them as unprofessional (i wasnt referring to the op if you look at my quote), which by any stretch of the imagination they were not. one of the things that lacks in some of these forums is respect. you can criticize what they do, but dont resort to name calling, especially calling them unprofessional when they have done a lot to make this one of the BEST tournaments in the foreign scene.
Given the OP has mentioned unprofessional conduct, wouldn't your point apply to them as well? Is calling someone "unprofessional" an insult in some cases and not others? Is there any scenario where one's professionalism can be questioned then?
I don't think calling someone unprofessional is name calling. Name calling is often baseless. Judging by the content of this thread, you'd think being called "unprofessional" would be somewhat related to the professional conduct of whoever.
As for your other points, while respect is always nice, this stuff happens in the real world, with sports. I figure, if the SC2 community wants to become an e-sport, it has to face the same types of problems that sports deals with.
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On March 27 2011 10:37 BasilPesto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 10:28 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 27 2011 10:23 BasilPesto wrote:On March 27 2011 10:19 dAPhREAk wrote:On March 27 2011 10:09 BasilPesto wrote:On March 27 2011 10:05 Kimaker wrote:
For the FIRST time, we see foreigners successfully competing with Koreans... What about Jinro and Idra in past GSLs? On March 27 2011 10:07 dAPhREAk wrote:
... calling someone unprofessional is offensive... Calling someone unprofessional need not necessarily be offensive. After all, what if someone actually is unprofessional? calling an idiot "idiot" is still offensive whether it is true or not. whats your point? Well, I can see what your point is. You're saying that because feelings can get hurt, we should refrain from all criticism, whether someone is "unprofessional", "immoral", "incomphensible", etc. Because afterall, said person puts in a lot of time and dedication, so they should be protected at all costs. My point is that criticism can be fair game. I'm not even sure how valid the criticism is in this case, but the OP has approached it reasonably--it's not an obvious troll, is it? the only point i was trying to make was that tl.net, chill, husky and a multitude of other people have contributed a lot of time and sweat into making the TSL. months have been dedicated to it. and then, in a post that took exactly 15 seconds, a poster insulted them by referring to them as unprofessional (i wasnt referring to the op if you look at my quote), which by any stretch of the imagination they were not. one of the things that lacks in some of these forums is respect. you can criticize what they do, but dont resort to name calling, especially calling them unprofessional when they have done a lot to make this one of the BEST tournaments in the foreign scene. Given the OP has mentioned unprofessional conduct, wouldn't your point apply to them as well? Is calling someone "unprofessional" an insult in some cases and not others? Is there any scenario where one's professionalism can be questioned then? I don't think calling someone unprofessional is name calling. Name calling is often baseless. Judging by the content of this thread, you'd think being called "unprofessional" would be somewhat related to the professional conduct of whoever. As for your other points, while respect is always nice, this stuff happens in the real world, with sports. I figure, if the SC2 community wants to become an e-sport, it has to face the same types of problems that sports deals with.
sigh. when someone spends a considerable amount of time doing something, you should err on the side of not insulting them without basis. the op wrote a lengthy post to which i was not referring. i was referring to someone else's post.
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they probably sounded bias cuz of their experience following the broodwar scene where that was the case.
i thought husky and chill did a competent job today, wasn't distracting or unwatchable in anyway. if it was for you, use the mute button.
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I liked the commentating. One match I went against my brotoss values and rooted for the american to win.
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On March 27 2011 08:10 zerious wrote:
Agreed, it sounded like I was watching a WWE match and the Koreans were the jobbers.
lol, this is exactly what it sounded like. Good games though. Day9 does this too during a foreigner v Korean match, eg. thorzain v fruitdealer. Whatever though, Koreans did play like jobbers, commentators loved it. Husky was probably the best at keeping it exciting without the whole take down Korea vibe. However, it was the first time alot of Korea's best lost to foreigners. Hopefully we get Tyler v MC. Tyler seems to have a good grasp of MC's weaknesses.
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Day9 coughed during casting, death of E-Sports?
Awesome, simply.
Where in tl would you be allowed to open a thread with this title as deliberate comic relief?
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On March 27 2011 10:03 eoLithic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 09:56 ggrrg wrote:There was nothing wrong with the commentary.
The skill gap seemed to dissapear after an hour of Chill talking exclusively about how the foreigners are finally almost, if not as good as the koreans. Every single move, every single engagement, every single match and the reflections made based on the outcome was focuced on the korean players nationality.
Obviously, we watched different channels... Your description is not only ridiculously exaggerated but you also fail to realize how huge the skill gap between foreigners and Koreans in bw was - the reason why casters even mention nationalities during casting. Thus it's completely understandable that after every game the commentators will address the fact that a foreigner had a nice performance against a Korean. In addition, the talk about "Koreans vs foreigners" is not that much about nationality, as it is about the fact that on the one side there is a player that lives in a team house with a sc2 couch, practices 10 hours a day and does absolutely nothing else in contrast to the player on the other side who leads a "normal" life and for whom sc2 is just a passion. The games today are not a proof that foreigners are as good as Koreans, but they still show that foreigners can stand on a somewhat equal footing with Koreans. I can imagine that lag might have been beneficial for the foreigners, but i cannot be sure, and neither can the other people in this thread. Not to mention that if the casters were speculating/talking about lag it would have been extremely unprofessional. This is not BW. I do not care how long you have been watching SC:BW or how emotionally attached you are to the struggle foreigners have had vs koreans. This is SC2, it is to proffesional players that are to be treated objectively by a commentator.
You do realize that the practice conditions still hold true, do you?
How's that not worth mentioning?
You do realize that you statement is ridiculously exaggerated, do you?
By no means did Chill talk excessively (and even less so exclusively) "about how the foreigners are finally almost, if not as good as the koreans".
Today's games might not have provided a clear evidence about how good foreigners are compared to Koreans, but they certainly provided a basis for speculating on the matter. Foreigners and Koreans rarely play together in one tournament, why shouldn't casters assess their performance on the rare occasions they do?
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Chill's being a homer. Nothing wrong with that. I imagine Gisado or whoever's doing the korean rebroadcast is the same - it's more entertaining for their respective audiences, and keeps the hype train rolling for the future rounds. If he exaggerates a bit or makes somewhat sweeping generalizations, if you know better, who cares? It amps the excitement by creating an underdog triumphing story for the tens of thousands who aren't as familiar with all the players, and the exaggeration is a hallmark of the best broadcasters - artosis, tasteless, day9, and to a lesser extent incontrol, all add to the interest-level of the games by creating storylines beyond just the play-by-play.
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The OP is being needlessly sensitive about passing comments Chill made. I myself did not once stop and think "Chill is being unprofessional," and judging from the community response in this thread most people would agree with me. I find it wholly unnecessary to create drama out of thin air, especially over what has been a fantastically commentated tournament.
On a side note -and I may just be arguing semantics- not all the players in this tournament are actually professionals; some are high-level amateurs.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
By professional do you mean boring? If you are smart enough to form your own opinions as far as favorite players then it shouldn't matter what casters say.
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On March 27 2011 10:19 BasilPesto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 10:11 Skillz_Man wrote:On March 27 2011 10:09 BasilPesto wrote:On March 27 2011 10:05 Kimaker wrote:
For the FIRST time, we see foreigners successfully competing with Koreans... What about Jinro and Idra in past GSLs? Two in a group of 60 doesn't count. I would think that's highly overlooking Idra and Jinro's talents and achievements then. It's like "Yeah, you're a foreigner, but you could just be a fluke, so we'll dismiss you two." Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 10:13 Kimaker wrote:On March 27 2011 10:09 BasilPesto wrote:On March 27 2011 10:05 Kimaker wrote:
For the FIRST time, we see foreigners successfully competing with Koreans... What about Jinro and Idra in past GSLs? Couldn't really count that as the whole foreigner scene being on parity with the Koreans since: A) They were over in Korea, under a Korean regiment. B) Two players, who we know are already good, could be an aberration. It's more about the two scenes, as opposed to the specific players. No one has ever claimed it's impossible for a foreigner to win, just that the foreigner scene was not as conducive to producing powerful players. Also, go look at BW history, and tell me otherwise. If you've followed long enough, you'll understand the significance of this. Only time I freaked out more was when White-ra beat Boxer at ISL (was it? or IEM? O_o?) You never mentioned "foreigner scene", you said "For the FIRST time, we see foreigners succesfully competing with Koreans". Going by that, and given that Jinro and Idra are "foreigners", I'd say your statement was incorrect. As for them two being "aberrations", again, that's highly dismissive of their consistently high talent/skill and achievements.
I guess if you feel like nit picking then sure. Whatever.
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Cmon Kennigit really?? I hardly think the way Day 9 and JP for example cast during MLG or even DJ Wheat is boring. They don't use words like "dick" to describe a player or show favoritism. It's all good though I'm not saying they need to emulate those casters or everyone needs to be like them, but in the end you can still be professional and not "boring"
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Well, I had a somewhat similar opinion to the OP. It didn't really bother me as I don't care who wins as long as we get good matches and commentary and we did.
Still, it was a bit too much at times. After IEM people over stated the skill gap and now people will do/are doing the opposite to be honest.
I don't think it was unprofessional and I don't think they laid down any personal attacks on the Koreans...to me they simply took too much out of a few results and it seems like a premature celebration that the skill cap is eliminated. That's what bothered me. Chill is a smart guy (I think  ), so I imagine he knows that a few matches in what is undeniably unfamiliar situations for the Korean player don't mean that much.
A few others, Jinro in particular, have done a good job of pointing out the differences in playing with a small delay vs no delay. Not that big unless you've never practiced with it. Here, I have to agree with Chill's commentary in that I doubt they practiced much for this particular situation.
I may be wrong, but I think the skill gap is still there and will be for a while to come. That doesn't mean that no foreigners are as good as Koreans or that no foreigner will win international tournaments if Koreans participate; it just means that the overall skill level is, in my opinion, slightly higher in Korea.
Overall, I don't think this deserves a massive post.
TL:DR : Just go easier on the extrapolation of these results for the future.
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Calgary25987 Posts
What the fuck are you talking about?
I don't understand what prompted you to make this thread. I said something you didn't like in the four and a half hours we were casting? Great. What's the point of this thread?
LOL and this thread is 8 pages? fml
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I was watching and it didn't distract me - and I am Korean =P Mostly, it didn't distract me because the whole time I was getting excited right along with Chill at how well the foreigners were holding there own against the Koreans. I missed the MVP/Adelscott matches, but QXC (you might have heard of him) and Genius was some phenomenal play on QXCs part.
I remain silent on Goody's play because I'm still trying to figure out what happened.
I don't know that it detracts from the professionalism because really, going into the TSL so many people were talking about how the Koreans were going to take the whole thing down... etc.
Instead, what we're seeing is foreigners going toe to toe as far as taking down big international tournmanets are concerned. As an example - the Koreans dominated at IEM, but are not doing so well with the TSL. There may be a numerous number of explanations, but it's still exciting nonetheless.
What is left to be seen is once LAN mode is released, whether foreigners and Koreans will still hold toe to toe. I think that the answer is yes.
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On March 27 2011 12:11 Chill wrote:
What the fuck are you talking about?
I don't understand what prompted you to make this thread. I said something you didn't like in the four and a half hours we were casting? Great. What's the point of this thread?
LOL and this thread is 8 pages? fml
but what you said was unprofessional //sarcasm
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My take on the whole situation is, No one believed since Grr.... won back in 2000, that any foreigner could ever win a tournament from the koreans, and very rarely did we even take games off of Koreans. Koreans have been on the fast track to becoming dominant in SC2 by setting up teams houses, etc. Koreans are the Lakers of the Stacraft world, and Foreigners are like the guys in a park playing a pick-up, half-court 3v3. Any competitive gamer with a starcraft background knows that.
Foreigners, who are largely the underdogs in this tournament, Dominating 3 of the BEST players that korea had to offer, is something so drastically different from what the BW veterans are used to and will get excited about.
Edit:
BTW, it just goes to show that no matter what Chill does, someone is there to hate upon him.
^_^
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Calgary25987 Posts
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Nationality plays a big role in our sport. In eSports there is a tremendous amount of Korean pride. They know they are expected to win against foreigners and if they don't, it is a huge disappointment to them. That pride works both ways. For us non-Koreans to see one of our own beat a Korean gives us a sense of pride and something to believe in. It isn't disrespectful or hurtful, but the casters obviously felt this pride. I don't see anything wrong with that. To me it doesn't seem unprofessional.
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EPT
