On January 09 2011 17:21 Headshot wrote: I'm sure Starcraft 2 will succeed, but there's just no "wow" factor there for me. Watching Brood War I just have to sit there in awe at the things these progamers can do, because I'm a D rank player at best. Never in a million years could I have the skill to do what the worst progamers can.
In Starcraft 2, everyone can macro well, and the difference between the pros and the average player is smaller than ever. Sure, there's quite a large skill gap, but it minuscule compared to Brood War.
This is exactly how I feel. It's still insane watching them play and seeing the stunts they pull off. To reach that level of micro and macro, speed and decision making, it's unimaginable to think of being at their level.
Fast forward to SC2 and I'm not as impressed by a lot of the stuff that goes on. I know I can't micro as well as Marineking, but hell, I sure have that level of macro(maybe a little bit worse). From personal experience, it's also a lot easier to beat players considered much better than you. I've done it on occasion to a couple high NA players in beta and nowadays. In BW, I could probably never take a game from a B teamer and I'd be more likely to get in a car crash than take a game from a progamer like Jaedong or Flash. In SC2, a well orchestrated coin flip play can flat out win me the game.
I feel as if something will need to happen to extend the lifespan and spectator value of SC2 - the game simply feels too gimmicky at some points. A lot of it lies within the map pool, which should be the first target by Blizzard if they want to stir SC2's growth in esports.
Just because the game is easier, does that mean that the progamers have to practice any less?
When you compete at anything at such a high level you create complexity through the competitive nature of play.
I won't say that SC2 is perfect and its a long way from being as epic as BW, but it has the potential with both time and good balancing to be just as great.
One thing you can't say is that the game has been stagnant.
Sure, we're seeing way too many early all-in or cheese strategies, but they keep updating and shifting. This quality is the true nature of what made and continues to make BW such an amazing spectator sport.
I suspect that in time, when the early game is almost beaten to death, then we will see longer and more fulfilling games.
Surgeon's skill with his/her hands would not matter if he did not know about anatomy of the human body. Which vein supplies blood to which organ, nerves etc and all that stuff is skill. That is knowledge. Rest is just something you get with practice which after some time becomes automatic.
This is my opinion, I don't think there's anything skillful in playing an rts without multiple building selection.
Just to let you guys know, The GSL popularity will revive because of 3 crappy maps(blistering, steppes, and delta) are taken out and big macro maps are coming in.
New macro maps are a good start. But we have a long way to go. Im hoping the 2 new expansions will fix imbalance issues and lessen the strength of cheesing :/
On January 09 2011 17:02 CreepCrepe wrote: Wait, so a game where you don't have to macro at all, relies on micro and random drops for your hero will survive as an e-sport but SC2 with macro mechanics that fucking make sense won't?
i think your consistent belligerence in this thread is approaching the point where you need to shut the fuck up
Fucking lol. Warcraft 3 is still MASSIVE in parts of Asia, heaps of Koreans still playing. You know what's killing WC3? Starcraft 2, not Brood War.
People seem to have very definite, clear-cut opinions of the GSL and Starcraft II, despite the game being less than 6 months old and the league a few hours away from starting its second week.
On January 09 2011 17:21 Headshot wrote: I'm sure Starcraft 2 will succeed, but there's just no "wow" factor there for me. Watching Brood War I just have to sit there in awe at the things these progamers can do, because I'm a D rank player at best. Never in a million years could I have the skill to do what the worst progamers can.
In Starcraft 2, everyone can macro well, and the difference between the pros and the average player is smaller than ever. Sure, there's quite a large skill gap, but it minuscule compared to Brood War.
you`re definately right and i think that`s one of the main reasons but the game is still evolving and HotS at the latest, will hopefully be a breakthrough in every regard .
but such things as kiwikaki vs machine yesterday ... i believe it was the reddit tournament ? where kiwi kills all 3 of machines hatcheries in a matter of seconds with devastating blink-stalkers just to sit in a trap surrounded by mass roaches and then to recall with a mothership at the dunno, 13 minute mark ? gives me the hope that there will be lots and lots of "wow" moments in the future.
that was just beautiful and super creative yet extremely effective
Surgeon's skill with his/her hands would not matter if he did not know about anatomy of the human body. Which vein supplies blood to which organ, nerves etc and all that stuff is skill. That is knowledge. Rest is just something you get with practice which after some time becomes automatic.
This is my opinion, I don't think there's anything skillful in playing an rts without multiple building selection.
It really is just muscle memory. It's an advanced typing tutor - if you memorise the patterns your hands will do the rest. No really. Guitar Hero without a screen, if I would be so bold. Proteam coaches have commented on this in regards to mass-gaming practice, I just couldn't be fucked looking it up.
I think that GOM needs to decrease the amount of GSL, I've been worried for quite sometime about people feeling the over saturation of content. This would lead to people taking the competition for granted. Think about it for a second, what are the biggest sporting tournaments in the world and how often do they get played. They don't get played every month, that's for sure. GOM can't expect a lot people to stay interested in a competition that runs for a month long and happens every month. I think GOM should reduce the amount of GSLs but make each one bigger with bigger prize pool. By making the stakes bigger it should make the games better and generate a bigger buzz around the whole competition.
That's my 2 cents. I hope this does happen but probably won't.
I would have to agree with the many people who feel the maps are becoming boring and favour short games than more entertaining long games. It would be nice if Blizzard produced more maps to freshen the game up.
It would be nice for Blizzard to be more proactive in promoting SC2. It would be sad to see the GSL go under. Whatever happens, Im going down with the ship. I love the sc community to death.
On January 09 2011 21:43 DJ_Amal wrote: I think that GOM needs to decrease the amount of GSL, I've been worried for quite sometime about people feeling the over saturation of content. This would lead to people taking the competition for granted. Think about it for a second, what are the biggest sporting tournaments in the world and how often do they get played. They don't get played every month, that's for sure. GOM can't expect a lot people to stay interested in a competition that runs for a month long and happens every month. I think GOM should reduce the amount of GSLs but make each one bigger with bigger prize pool. By making the stakes bigger it should make the games better and generate a bigger buzz around the whole competition.
That's my 2 cents. I hope this does happen but probably won't.
Wouldn't work because the players need to make money somehow, whether through sponsoring – being on TV/the net – or winning prize money. Partaking in 200$ tournaments is not going to keep dozens of professional gamers fed and clothed.
The GSL is more like a pro league, and usually there's just a small time frame (2 or 3 months) per year where a league takes a break, if at all.
SC2 has a limited lifespan because it is a limited game. The amount of popularity it has received is because of consuming 12 years of goodwill created by BW. Soon that goodwill is emptied and the title has to life on its own merits. Also, its popularity in the E-sport scene is artificially created by advertising and inflated prices in gom. Remove Blizzards carrying hand from it, and the title wont survive.
On January 09 2011 21:20 Ciddass wrote: but such things as kiwikaki vs machine yesterday ... i believe it was the reddit tournament ? where kiwi kills all 3 of machines hatcheries in a matter of seconds with devastating blink-stalkers just to sit in a trap surrounded by mass roaches and then to recall with a mothership at the dunno, 13 minute mark ? gives me the hope that there will be lots and lots of "wow" moments in the future.
that was just beautiful and super creative yet extremely effective
Yeah Kiwikaku vs Machine in the SCRI were wow moments that restored my faith in the game. Both games for sure but that first one was just outright amazing. Theres hope yet!
BTW Heres the game for anyone who didn't catch it:
On January 09 2011 17:02 CreepCrepe wrote: Wait, so a game where you don't have to macro at all, relies on micro and random drops for your hero will survive as an e-sport but SC2 with macro mechanics that fucking make sense won't?
After reading this, I have came to the conclusion that you have no idea what you are talking about.
You are right about 1 thing though, "some ppl are talking out of their ass". You are so right.
No disrespect to the players but that wasn't that good... the guy basically abused the map went in zapped the crap outta everything and blinked out. I usually avoid making direct comments to sc2 pro player out of respect but that game wasn't that fun to watch...lack of scouting forsure but not really anything he could have done if he scouted the coming attack which is what a lot of people were complaining about(I'm happy to eat my words if someone can counter this). In the end it was just blob vs blob or blob chasing blob then blob vs blob...
On January 09 2011 17:02 CreepCrepe wrote: Wait, so a game where you don't have to macro at all, relies on micro and random drops for your hero will survive as an e-sport but SC2 with macro mechanics that fucking make sense won't?
After reading this, I have came to the conclusion that you have no idea what you are talking about.
You are right about 1 thing though, "some ppl are talking out of their ass". You are so right.
So WC3 survives as an e-sport on the back of it's mindbogglingly difficult macro mechanics? Cool story. WC3 macro is incredibly easy compared to even SC2, yet it still marches on.
I don't see how the amount of time, money and effort already invested into Western E-sports is just going to fade away. I don't get why everyone is so content being an e-sports reactionary when it comes to BW and SC2.
What game are all the current SC2 pros going to go to when GSL drops the prize money down a few thousand dollars? Back to Brood War? Hilarious.
On January 09 2011 22:51 CreepCrepe wrote: What game are all the current SC2 pros going to go to when GSL drops the prize money down a few thousand dollars? Back to Brood War? Hilarious.
They won't go back to BW since they're impossibly behind to Koreans already. They'll stick around with SC2 until the new rts game with bigger prizes comes out.
On January 09 2011 22:51 CreepCrepe wrote: What game are all the current SC2 pros going to go to when GSL drops the prize money down a few thousand dollars? Back to Brood War? Hilarious.
They won't go back to BW since they're impossibly behind to Koreans already. They'll stick around with SC2 until the new rts game with bigger prizes comes out.
Which ones that? The new Dawn of War? RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
At the first sign of trouble everyone abandon ship! If you like GSL and Starcraft 2 (as i do) just keep watching and supporting. Obviously the sick amount of players it had at the start was due to alot of people bored of wow and giving the new blizzard game a chance. Now some of them will stay and some will leave but there will still be alot of people interested in watching games and paying 10$ to do it. Keep faith, dont give up.
EPT
