GSL Popularity - Page 58

On January 09 2011 16:20 darmousseh wrote:
One thing in sc2 compared to bw is that you don't struggle for macro ever. You rarely ever feel starved for economy and the incentive to expand past 2 bases is very minor considering how quickly you can get to max on 2 bases. SC2 macro is basically bw macro x 3. For every expansion you have in sc2 its worth like 2.5 expansions in bw. No wonder taking bases is such a huge risk/reward.

On January 09 2011 16:50 XiPSoLo wrote:
Add in the fact that it is gomtv.net / gomtv.com and it is easy to watch online, if you pay the fee. Whenever the show the audience or from what you can see behind Tastosis everyone is wearing winter jackets and hats.
Yeah you can come down to the stadium in the middle of the day and get free Pepsi / Pizza but you also freeze you a** off - or watch it in your free time online

On January 09 2011 14:25 Rickly wrote:
Well, believe it or not, I have read most of this thread :x. Many good points and bad points were made on (oh, I hate to say this) "both sides." And honestly, the whole issue of popularity of SC2 in Korea is, I think, a VERY complex subject with a plethora of factors. It's just not as simple as some make it out to be.

I mean, think about it. It has been ~11 years since the release and initial growth of the previous Starcraft (BW ofc). What has changed since then? (technologically, socially, economically, etc.). There are too many to list here, but here are a few (many of which have already been mentioned).

1. World wide economic crisis (which must have SOME type of affect on this).

2. Percentage of population that owns a personal computer and/or the internet (and their
increase in power/speed)

3. The whole progaming scene (since it didn't really exist before the BW scene got started)

4. Lack of a single game dominating an entire country (perhaps laughable back then). Even if Kespa and Blizz were buddy buddy, I can only see BW and SC2 and competing for the same viewers (this would be their "coexistence"). But considering how ingrained BW is in the hearts, minds, and very culture of Koreans (and given other circumstances like GSL's poor map choice and the fact that the game just isn't as good as BW yet), you can't expect anything more of SC2 right now (Blizz/kespa conflict notwithstanding)

5. SC1 developers having to come up with a brand new lore complete with units, characters, three races, and some type of crazy/unprecedented balance between these races where the incredible contrast between them (the look and style, the economic workings, and overall distinct "feel" of each race) does not clash with the fact that they should be balanced (which they obviously didn't get right the first try). In all honesty, SC2 inherited a lot of these kind of incredible aspects of BW, which allowed the new developers to focus elsewhere. Although don't get me wrong, I realize that newer mechanics combined with new units means this had to and still must be worked out some. However, much of the core "essence" that is our beloved StarCraft was worked out through BW.

6. Since there was no scene, there was no Kespa, meaning there was no Kespa/Blizzard legal conflict to hinder the growth of BW. Of course, Blizzard never meant BW to become what it did (else the legality of organizations hosting tournaments with your game to make money would have been hammered out waaaay back then).

7. BW came out and grew during the dawn and toddler years of the internet age (and the growth spurt of the ownage of personal computers). Even back then, the system requirements of BW were not demanding, so it was affordable to host it in internet cafes. Compare that with SC2. We have cable internet, video streaming, a pro-scene, etc. etc.

8. Along with #5, there was no predecessor (let alone an unprecedentedly popular one) with which BW could biggie back on. Sure, you could say Warcraft II, but look what happened when Blizz tried to use WII engine (which works for WII units, environment, lore, and general system) to make SC1:

(this is a very important point with regard to #5).

9. BW has had time! It is natural (atleast to me) that BW is still the best/most entertaining competitive RTS around after SC2 has been out for only 6 months. Although it is true that the experience of 10 years of awesome BW means that players aren't starting from scratch with regard to broad aspects of game play (ex: The deep concepts of economy and the balance between two different resources: minerals and gas), I would like to keep an open mind and assume that I cannot possibly guess what high-level SC2 play is like 3-5 years down the road (especially considering the potential of two expansions worth of new units! :O).

10. MORE STUFF I CAN'T EVEN THINK OF!(I suppose "etc." would do lol)

So, given all these factors, I find it difficult to say things (as I did in #9) like "it's only 6 months old, give it time to become more skillful!" as if this is a singleton, simple reason/explanation as to why SC2 (or more specifically, GSL) progaming hasn't taken hold in Korea the way I expected it to (expectations were perhaps too high). My whole point in posting this was just to bring up the fact that this isn't a simple issue.

So much so that (as one user already said) it may be impossible for SC2 to explode in Korea in the same way that BW did (again, think of the points listed above as 1. reasons why BW exploded and 2. why SC2 may not necessarily do the same). If pro SC2 in Korea fails, then even given the improvement of western attitude towards professional gaming, I can't see pro SC2 in the US or any European countries being as huge as pro BW was in Korea at its height and continues to be (a bonifide national sport that even has a freaking air force team!). Even so, this doesn't necessarily sadden me as I am content with what I have (I don't need a crowd in the tens of thousands, entire tv stations, and governments devoted to my game of choice, as long as I can still enjoy it and enjoy watching people exceedingly good at it display their skill. For example, I greatly enjoyed Dreamhack! Of course, that level of popularity would be nice).

Now! I must admit that I am a huge BW fan and that I wouldn't mind seeing high-level Korean BW for another 10 years (as believe it or not, BW is STILL evolving!).However, the possibility for SC2 having a chance to be like this isn't 0 and as the SC community, I like to think that it is our responsibility to flesh the game out and give it constructive criticism so the game can grow (which thankfully many have been doing, but some of you are just flaming... on "both sides"). IMO, we must be critical and honest about SC2 without being jerks to each other as I feel this is a more effective method for getting the job done (and it doesn't split the community further).

So here is my criticism (or opinion, which isn't all original)

Achievable changes:
1. BIGGER MAPS NEEDED(I think everyone here has agreed with this).

2. Better sounds. Although an earlier user posted this, I thought the same thing when I first played the game. Especially since I am a zerg in BW, I am disappointed with the sound of hydras and zerglings attacking (before, the sound of 24 hydras destroying a main helped to create a feeling of exhilaration). They don't need to be the same (using the same archaic sound bytes would = lulz), but they should instill more fear/excitement than they do now.

3. The clarity of units against backgrounds and during fights. Although it is by no means bad, compared with the crystal clear visuals of units in BW, it seems as if it could be improved (I think brightening up the units and environments and perhaps turning down special effects may help!).

Absurd (meaning improbable at this stage) things to change:

1a. The "WoW-ish" look of some units (ex: zealots looking like a warrior in battle stance mode).
1b. The Warcraft 3-ish look of buildings (kinda blocky, bulky looking. Then again, I don't know what words to use to describe the BW look of buildings lol).

These sometimes make it feel a bit less StarCrafty for me. I actually consider these to be minor issues (especially considering 1. an overhaul of even a single unit's appearance is probably too late now and 2. some of this is a direct consequence of going 3D). Also, this is most likely my BW bias (lol), so I probably just need to get used to it and except it as the new game it is.

2. Return of some missing BW units like the lurker, speed vulture, and reaver (once again, probably BW bias, expecially considering the game isn't complete yet. Two expansions to go!)

3. KERRIGAN'S STUPID VOICE! (lol) I'm sorry, but I miss hearing the overmind's voice when managing my zerg base. Kerrigan's "we require more overlords" is soooo annoying and sounds too forced xD (e.g. she's "trying" to sound evil). Yet again, this is relatively minor ;-).

In conclusion, I am very excited for the future and potential of SC2. The only thing I didn't mention in my "achievable wants" was having a more in-depth meta game. The reason is because: SC2 is young! So this must develop (Honestly, BW has transcended gaming in the sense that its meta game is incredibly complex and after all the years is still evolving healthily)!

This is what I feel (once again, blizzard/kespa issues notwithstanding): SC2 "progaming" should not have been broadcast in Korea straight away. Its meta game is unstable because it is young and should have been allowed to stabilize (with our help) more before being presented as high-level SC2 in a massive/expensive tournament (like throwing a 5 year old into the workforce where his 50 year old brother had dominated before and continues to do so. The 5 year old needs time to mature and gain work experience. Perhaps an internship lol). Dreamhack and MLG level tourneys (smaller scale/cash prize) are better suited now IMO. A safe environment for SC2 to develop and grow (just like the internet cafes and small tournaments in Korea were a safe place for BW to develop to the level where it could be broadcasted and profitable)!

I do hope that SC2 can break into the Korean scene and help boost progaming for not only itself, but also BW!

On January 09 2011 14:25 Rickly wrote:
Well, believe it or not, I have read most of this thread :x. Many good points and bad points were made on (oh, I hate to say this) "both sides." And honestly, the whole issue of popularity of SC2 in Korea is, I think, a VERY complex subject with a plethora of factors. It's just not as simple as some make it out to be.

I mean, think about it. It has been ~11 years since the release and initial growth of the previous Starcraft (BW ofc). What has changed since then? (technologically, socially, economically, etc.). There are too many to list here, but here are a few (many of which have already been mentioned).

1. World wide economic crisis (which must have SOME type of affect on this).

2. Percentage of population that owns a personal computer and/or the internet (and their
increase in power/speed)

3. The whole progaming scene (since it didn't really exist before the BW scene got started)

4. Lack of a single game dominating an entire country (perhaps laughable back then). Even if Kespa and Blizz were buddy buddy, I can only see BW and SC2 and competing for the same viewers (this would be their "coexistence"). But considering how ingrained BW is in the hearts, minds, and very culture of Koreans (and given other circumstances like GSL's poor map choice and the fact that the game just isn't as good as BW yet), you can't expect anything more of SC2 right now (Blizz/kespa conflict notwithstanding)

5. SC1 developers having to come up with a brand new lore complete with units, characters, three races, and some type of crazy/unprecedented balance between these races where the incredible contrast between them (the look and style, the economic workings, and overall distinct "feel" of each race) does not clash with the fact that they should be balanced (which they obviously didn't get right the first try). In all honesty, SC2 inherited a lot of these kind of incredible aspects of BW, which allowed the new developers to focus elsewhere. Although don't get me wrong, I realize that newer mechanics combined with new units means this had to and still must be worked out some. However, much of the core "essence" that is our beloved StarCraft was worked out through BW.

6. Since there was no scene, there was no Kespa, meaning there was no Kespa/Blizzard legal conflict to hinder the growth of BW. Of course, Blizzard never meant BW to become what it did (else the legality of organizations hosting tournaments with your game to make money would have been hammered out waaaay back then).

7. BW came out and grew during the dawn and toddler years of the internet age (and the growth spurt of the ownage of personal computers). Even back then, the system requirements of BW were not demanding, so it was affordable to host it in internet cafes. Compare that with SC2. We have cable internet, video streaming, a pro-scene, etc. etc.

8. Along with #5, there was no predecessor (let alone an unprecedentedly popular one) with which BW could biggie back on. Sure, you could say Warcraft II, but look what happened when Blizz tried to use WII engine (which works for WII units, environment, lore, and general system) to make SC1:

(this is a very important point with regard to #5).

9. BW has had time! It is natural (atleast to me) that BW is still the best/most entertaining competitive RTS around after SC2 has been out for only 6 months. Although it is true that the experience of 10 years of awesome BW means that players aren't starting from scratch with regard to broad aspects of game play (ex: The deep concepts of economy and the balance between two different resources: minerals and gas), I would like to keep an open mind and assume that I cannot possibly guess what high-level SC2 play is like 3-5 years down the road (especially considering the potential of two expansions worth of new units! :O).

10. MORE STUFF I CAN'T EVEN THINK OF!(I suppose "etc." would do lol)

So, given all these factors, I find it difficult to say things (as I did in #9) like "it's only 6 months old, give it time to become more skillful!" as if this is a singleton, simple reason/explanation as to why SC2 (or more specifically, GSL) progaming hasn't taken hold in Korea the way I expected it to (expectations were perhaps too high). My whole point in posting this was just to bring up the fact that this isn't a simple issue.

So much so that (as one user already said) it may be impossible for SC2 to explode in Korea in the same way that BW did (again, think of the points listed above as 1. reasons why BW exploded and 2. why SC2 may not necessarily do the same). If pro SC2 in Korea fails, then even given the improvement of western attitude towards professional gaming, I can't see pro SC2 in the US or any European countries being as huge as pro BW was in Korea at its height and continues to be (a bonifide national sport that even has a freaking air force team!). Even so, this doesn't necessarily sadden me as I am content with what I have (I don't need a crowd in the tens of thousands, entire tv stations, and governments devoted to my game of choice, as long as I can still enjoy it and enjoy watching people exceedingly good at it display their skill. For example, I greatly enjoyed Dreamhack! Of course, that level of popularity would be nice).

Now! I must admit that I am a huge BW fan and that I wouldn't mind seeing high-level Korean BW for another 10 years (as believe it or not, BW is STILL evolving!).However, the possibility for SC2 having a chance to be like this isn't 0 and as the SC community, I like to think that it is our responsibility to flesh the game out and give it constructive criticism so the game can grow (which thankfully many have been doing, but some of you are just flaming... on "both sides"). IMO, we must be critical and honest about SC2 without being jerks to each other as I feel this is a more effective method for getting the job done (and it doesn't split the community further).

So here is my criticism (or opinion, which isn't all original)

Achievable changes:
1. BIGGER MAPS NEEDED(I think everyone here has agreed with this).

2. Better sounds. Although an earlier user posted this, I thought the same thing when I first played the game. Especially since I am a zerg in BW, I am disappointed with the sound of hydras and zerglings attacking (before, the sound of 24 hydras destroying a main helped to create a feeling of exhilaration). They don't need to be the same (using the same archaic sound bytes would = lulz), but they should instill more fear/excitement than they do now.

3. The clarity of units against backgrounds and during fights. Although it is by no means bad, compared with the crystal clear visuals of units in BW, it seems as if it could be improved (I think brightening up the units and environments and perhaps turning down special effects may help!).

Absurd (meaning improbable at this stage) things to change:

1a. The "WoW-ish" look of some units (ex: zealots looking like a warrior in battle stance mode).
1b. The Warcraft 3-ish look of buildings (kinda blocky, bulky looking. Then again, I don't know what words to use to describe the BW look of buildings lol).

These sometimes make it feel a bit less StarCrafty for me. I actually consider these to be minor issues (especially considering 1. an overhaul of even a single unit's appearance is probably too late now and 2. some of this is a direct consequence of going 3D). Also, this is most likely my BW bias (lol), so I probably just need to get used to it and except it as the new game it is.

2. Return of some missing BW units like the lurker, speed vulture, and reaver (once again, probably BW bias, expecially considering the game isn't complete yet. Two expansions to go!)

3. KERRIGAN'S STUPID VOICE! (lol) I'm sorry, but I miss hearing the overmind's voice when managing my zerg base. Kerrigan's "we require more overlords" is soooo annoying and sounds too forced xD (e.g. she's "trying" to sound evil). Yet again, this is relatively minor ;-).

In conclusion, I am very excited for the future and potential of SC2. The only thing I didn't mention in my "achievable wants" was having a more in-depth meta game. The reason is because: SC2 is young! So this must develop (Honestly, BW has transcended gaming in the sense that its meta game is incredibly complex and after all the years is still evolving healthily)!

This is what I feel (once again, blizzard/kespa issues notwithstanding): SC2 "progaming" should not have been broadcast in Korea straight away. Its meta game is unstable because it is young and should have been allowed to stabilize (with our help) more before being presented as high-level SC2 in a massive/expensive tournament (like throwing a 5 year old into the workforce where his 50 year old brother had dominated before and continues to do so. The 5 year old needs time to mature and gain work experience. Perhaps an internship lol). Dreamhack and MLG level tourneys (smaller scale/cash prize) are better suited now IMO. A safe environment for SC2 to develop and grow (just like the internet cafes and small tournaments in Korea were a safe place for BW to develop to the level where it could be broadcasted and profitable)!

I do hope that SC2 can break into the Korean scene and help boost progaming for not only itself, but also BW!

On January 09 2011 08:07 Supamang wrote:
You are correct but where should the line be drawn? To what extent should the game mechanics be kept flawed so that players can do amazing stuff? I'm all for smart pathfinding, but auto-muta stacking seems a little dumb tbh.
im sorry, but that is just a perfect example of a typical hopelessly nostalgic BW fanboy post. are you seriously suggesting that BW was perfect in terms of its mechanics? Dragoon ramp navigation, scarab duds...is there seriously nothing at all that you can think of from BW that could be better?

Strict BW fans can easily argue that BW mechanics take more skill than SC2, I completely agree with that point now. But none of them can convincingly, rationally come up with a reason as to why BW mechanics are better than SC2's. Its like trying to argue why hip hop is better than metal. Both are such prominent genres that most arguments that are brought up are entirely subjective.

So can you rationally come up with a decent reason as to WHY broodwars is the quintessential "perfection of mechanics"? Why is WC2 not the best form of mechanics? BW fans seem to love to use the difficulty factor as the reason as to why BW>SC2. So how is WC2 not better than BW? You are too obsessed with BW to see that your opinion as to why BW (and not WC2 or SC2) is perfect is based entirely on the fact that you spent the past 10 years being devoted to BW rather than WC2 or SC2.

On January 09 2011 07:00 Bleak wrote:
This is exactly there is so much whining regards SC2's difficulty. The game is as difficult as its predecessor at its core, but things like MBS and auto-mine are really needed to free up the unnecessary load for multitasking. Yes, clicking 8 buildings and making 8 different units in 2-3 seconds is amazing, but why is it really a "skill"? It is just practice, there's nothing amazing about it. A monkey could also do that if you replace gateways with big boxes with smaller boxes in them to click for. It isn't really skill, and I'm glad the game is easier in that sense. David Gilmour is probably nothing in terms of speed compared to Yngwie Malmsteen, but with each note David Gilmour gives much more emotion. Shredding your ass off means very little in music.

On January 09 2011 18:09 Gold Fish wrote:
However (for SC2) - What do you guys think if Blizzard removed smartcasting, automine, shift queing, MBS, etc in Diamond league (or Master league once it's introduced) and/or higher.

The argument so far is that those features are "required" for RTS nowadays but so far people in thread have argued that those features should be removed (at least competitively) to make things more interesting. Removing those features from just Diamond+ could be a compromise for casuals and competitive players (or viewers of competitive players).

On January 09 2011 17:02 CreepCrepe wrote:
Wait, so a game where you don't have to macro at all, relies on micro and random drops for your hero will survive as an e-sport but SC2 with macro mechanics that fucking make sense won't?