[Champion] Vladimir - Page 2

chazzzle

United States1 Post

January 06 2011 22:38 GMT

#21

gawd how is rylai's not a core item? What you get in it's place? it's the second item I get. Also ideal skill order should be r > q > e > w. If you're in a fight long enough to use pool twice wtf you doin?

my build:
9/0/21
mp marks
health seals
ap/level glyphs
ap quint

q hits the 2 second cooldown when you're level 9 so it's why I chose ap/level glyphs

start with doran's, get boots, get giant belt turn it into rylai's, deathcap, void staff, deathcap, sell doran's for another deathcap

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

January 06 2011 23:21 GMT

#22

IMO Rylais is core. Rylais is the only way you can stay on-par with every other good AP caster in terms of CC. You'll have raw damage, but without Rylais you won't be able to match up to Annie/Kennen's stuns or Anivia's slows.

Navi

5286 Posts

January 06 2011 23:46 GMT

#23

Rather there than being any core items where you need to get them in any set order, I think of there being some flexibility in order choice. For instance if the enemy team is ahead and are looking for teamfights and your team needs to win one to exert any map control (pushing or killing baron nashor) then deathcap will be much more helpful than rylai because its passive and pure AP will allow for much more damage output than rylais would for comparable prices, and chasing isn't the primary objective so much as dealing absurd damage asap is (If your team has absolutely no cc at all this may change, but if so you probably did something wrong at the select screen lol). If the enemy team isn't looking for teamfights and you're doing well or there is an absurdly long laning phase, rylais is a great item to have as it makes you an obnoxious ganker as well as hard to gank yourself. But yes those two items are probably the first two that you will want to complete for their passives (other than boots ofc). They're both great items too in that the components are immediately helpful (with your passive and immediately appreciate-able increase on your nukes) and are fairly accessible as well.

btw yango i herd ur doing ur finals when u done?

Unentschieden

Germany1471 Posts

January 07 2011 00:04 GMT

#24

Yeah Rylais is great because you don´t really want to initiate with bloodpool.
Really great however are the new CDR boots - they directly improve his harrass/survivability at the point where he is vulnerable, pre lvl 9 Transfusion.

oberon

United States1320 Posts

January 07 2011 00:16 GMT

#25

Rylai's isn't just core because the slow is nice, it's core because it's ridiculously stupidly super-efficient on Vlad -- it gives a ton of both AP and HP. If you're not opening Rylai's, you damned well better be going Mejai's -> Levi, because anything else is simply worse (and the full-snowball thing is honestly pretty troll).

SCling

18 Posts

January 07 2011 00:44 GMT

#26

Snowball is not needed on vlad, with the exception of mejais. Tank builds don't work as well as AP builds for Vlad since he is a caster after all, and having huge amounts of health with mediocre damage output isn't as good as having great damage output and decent health (~3kish). Deathcap is probably core now since it straight up adds 200+ AP and 350+ health, and Hourglass adds even more invulnerability and AP to help. Besides that, CD boots, Rylais, and maybe a Majais (situational) would be the rest of items. Not in the order i posted though.

Navi

5286 Posts

January 07 2011 00:47 GMT

#27

On January 07 2011 09:16 oberon wrote:
Rylai's isn't just core because the slow is nice, it's core because it's ridiculously stupidly super-efficient on Vlad -- it gives a ton of both AP and HP. If you're not opening Rylai's, you damned well better be going Mejai's -> Levi, because anything else is simply worse (and the full-snowball thing is honestly pretty troll).

"super efficient"
deathcap is more "super efficient" in terms of pure numbers if u ask me
the slow is the only reason you would get it over deathcap, the extra hp is irrelevant in most reasonable scenarios

edit: lolyangogotowned
To be fair though, rylais is also more "accessible" in that its components are cheaper piece by piece (I haven't actually checked but cap is NLR + rod right?). Its easier to get blasting rod + tome on a b than it is to get NLR

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

January 07 2011 00:48 GMT

#28

From a pure stats perspective, I'm pretty sure Deathcap is more cost-effective than Rylais even on Vladimir--particularly since the passive scales up your from-HP AP, which then scales back into your HP. It's not like being HP + AP makes Rylais better than Deathcap being pure AP.

SCling

18 Posts

January 07 2011 00:51 GMT

#29

Rylai's is worth getting just for the slow because it allows vlad to combo without the other person just walking out of casting range. Busting out pool just for the slow becomes extremely dangerous lategame since thats the only thing preventing vlad from being focused to extinction.

Navi

5286 Posts

January 07 2011 00:54 GMT

#30

We're not saying that rylais isn't worth getting on vlad, we're just countering his argument that its stats are so goddamn cost effective that it is the TO-GO item to rush on vlad

Phrost

United States4008 Posts

January 07 2011 01:37 GMT

#31

I always get Rylais first because the slow I feel in my playstyle is required to be effective. The Hp isn't a deal breaker but most reasonable people will be running from a vlad not sitting there getting wailed on and he's not the kind of caster that kills you in 1 volley of spells (maybe 2 transfusions if you break out everything and your ult)

UniversalSnip

9871 Posts

January 07 2011 02:25 GMT

#32

He's also kind of slow and there's really no other way to catch people but to burn pool or summoners, both of which have heavy costs associated with them.

I'm really thinking hourglass might be better than cap on him btw, this is the first caster where I've felt that at all. Cap has been kinda 'win-more' for me in that it only really helps your team when you would be in a position to crush with pretty much any ap item.

oberon

United States1320 Posts

January 07 2011 03:01 GMT

#33

On January 07 2011 09:48 TheYango wrote:

Show nested quote +

From a pure stats perspective, I'm pretty sure Deathcap is more cost-effective than Rylais even on Vladimir--particularly since the passive scales up your from-HP AP, which then scales back into your HP. It's not like being HP + AP makes Rylais better than Deathcap being pure AP.

Evidence please? I'm fairly sure this is not the case, because you'd create an infinite loop.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

January 07 2011 03:06 GMT

#34

On January 07 2011 12:01 oberon wrote:

Show nested quote +

Evidence please? I'm fairly sure this is not the case, because you'd create an infinite loop.

From the LoL wiki:

While specifically noted that Crimson Pact will not stack with itself, any Ability Power gained through Crimson Pact will be affected by Rabadon's Deathcap. The ability power added in this way will be converted into Health through Crimson Pact.

It doesn't create an infinite loop, because regardless of the effect scaling off Deathcap, it still doesn't change the fact that Crimson Pact doesn't scale off itself.

Juicyfruit

Canada5484 Posts

January 07 2011 04:38 GMT

#35

The loop is infinite, but it converges pretty quickly.

Same as with Kayle

100AD gives 30AP, which gives 3AD, which gives 1 AP, which gives 0.1AD....

etc

Add it all up and you still only get

103AD and 31AP

Navi

5286 Posts

January 07 2011 05:23 GMT

#36

On January 07 2011 13:38 Juicyfruit wrote:
The loop is infinite, but it converges pretty quickly.

Same as with Kayle

100AD gives 30AP, which gives 3AD, which gives 1 AP, which gives 0.1AD....

etc

Add it all up and you still only get

103AD and 31AP

i'm fairly certain that they made it so that the passives don't scale off each other because people who don't know what limits and derivatives are wouldn't be scared of vlad and kayle op
but yes, even if they did, as juicy wrote, the only differences would be <1 AP and ad in most cases.

Navi

5286 Posts

January 07 2011 05:33 GMT

#37

On January 07 2011 10:37 Phrost wrote:
I always get Rylais first because the slow I feel in my playstyle is required to be effective. The Hp isn't a deal breaker but most reasonable people will be running from a vlad not sitting there getting wailed on and he's not the kind of caster that kills you in 1 volley of spells (maybe 2 transfusions if you break out everything and your ult)

rylai is solo q god
but honestly, dealing absurd damage is almost always preferable in team oriented play, especially if your team is intelligent enough to take enough cc.

imagine for an instant that you are a vlad with rylai, and your team starts dragon and proceeds to get engaged upon by the enemy team.
then imagine that you are a vlad with a deathcap, and your team fights the same fight.

your damage output is much larger (you get more than twice the AP from rylais with deathcap, vlad's passive included), and if you can force them off you you can easily finish off your objective.

While rylais does help with chasing, chasing for kills isn't the optimal solution in all cases (indeed it is often a bad choice, because the time you spend chasing could be used to aid your allies against other opponents in the case of a large fight or taking out towers/buffs/dragon). If your team is organized enough that you are confident in forcing fights at towers when you have vision on one of their teammates at a diff location, getting deathcap is a legitimate first item.

and hell, if you chase them out of lane, good for you. if you chase them out of a teamfight, even better for you. use that time to wipe out th eir teammates/tower. Honestly, if they are intelligent enough, rylai slow won't be enough to kill them unless you get an assist from your jungler.

Dgiese

United States2687 Posts

January 07 2011 13:21 GMT

#38

I hadn't really thought about it until reading this argument... but there is only 200 gold (actually 195) difference between the two.

Deathcap needs two trips of 1700 and 1600 to be made... or 3 of 860, 840 and 1600.
Rylai's can be split up alot more... the largest trip only has to be 1100 (as compared to 1600). However with Vlad's survivability in lane it shouldn't be a huge issue to farm up the extra 500.

If ranged carries have to farm up 1850, farming up 1600 shouldn't be a big deal for Vlad... gonna have to consider deathcap rushes on him when I finish farming IP for him.

ghen

United States1356 Posts

January 07 2011 13:36 GMT

#39

On January 07 2011 22:21 Dgiese wrote:
I hadn't really thought about it until reading this argument... but there is only 200 gold (actually 195) difference between the two.

Deathcap needs two trips of 1700 and 1600 to be made... or 3 of 860, 840 and 1600.
Rylai's can be split up alot more... the largest trip only has to be 1100 (as compared to 1600). However with Vlad's survivability in lane it shouldn't be a huge issue to farm up the extra 500.

If ranged carries have to farm up 1850, farming up 1600 shouldn't be a big deal for Vlad... gonna have to consider deathcap rushes on him when I finish farming IP for him.

If you can't farm 2k in 2 sittings as vlad then maybe Rylais is a good item for you in that game. Basically for more defense. Vlad has got to be the easiest AFK farmer in the game. Even kennen has to get in melee range and sivir will run out of mana eventually as well as not being able to optimally keep a lane in the correct position.

So yeah, deathcap is an easy farm, but you bring up a good point in that if you are forced back a bunch you might want to concider the extra survivability of rylais -> zhonyas over pure DPS. Maybe even skip deathcap completely if you have another carry doing good in the game and you're not doing so hot.

ghen

United States1356 Posts

January 07 2011 14:14 GMT

#40

Added Runes, Masteries, and more items to the OP. Check it out and tell me if I'm wrong... Just do it gently because I'm so sensitive!

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