dear Team Liquid, please enlighten me and share your opinions

what's the advantage of asymmetrical maps?
doesnt certain spawn positions favour | force certain strategies due to the maps being asymmetrical?
if so, what do you think about that?

User was temp banned for this post.

green.at

Austria1459 Posts

December 23 2010 18:19 GMT

give an example for such a map. there are really not many of them.

RiotSpectre

United States163 Posts

December 23 2010 18:27 GMT

I can't think of any asymmetrical maps in SC2, but I think it would lead to a whole new facet of griefing when one player claims he would have won "if only I'd been on the left instead of the right." If starting positions were not identical, for instance in an asymmetrical map, one would inherently be more defensible than the other.

On a sidenote...us terran players feel like some maps are asymmetrical when the other guy can use an add-on to wall-in from his barracks while we can't, based on ramp positioning! Oh the horror!

413X

Sweden201 Posts

December 23 2010 18:28 GMT

Scrap station. You can block destructable debree on the natural, behind it so it takes even longer to get in with just one pylon. Therfore, You can ease defend the expand even if a zerg pushed down those without you noticing. On the upper base, you need 2 or bigger building, which isn't really what you want, since you can accept 100 minerals from a pylon, but not 200 minerals. So if your not really sure what's going on behind the smoke. If the opponent will be able to hit that and if the opponent got such huge pressure, you might not expand due to that. Also, I think you can warp in stuff behind the debree on the upper side, so that you have vision on that area. Which also allows blinking in units. Which I think you don't have on the lower base (not entirely sure on this point though.) This would create diffrent strategies possibilities.

Befree

683 Posts

December 23 2010 18:36 GMT

Lost temple is asymmetrical. Entrances to the natural by the cliff are unique. As well as many other parts of the map.

They're all asymmetrical to some extent of course, but I'd say that is the most asymmetrical of the current map pool.

As for my opinion, I think it makes for more interesting game play/strategies and more aesthetically pleasing maps. While I do think a completely symmetrical map would be a better indicator of skill and more fair so we wouldn't have to deal with the randomness/luck of spawn locations, I still would rather we stick with the current asymmetry. I value the entertainment of the aesthetics of the map and the differing strategies more than the small increase in overall fairness we'd gain.

InsertUsername

12 Posts

December 23 2010 18:47 GMT

On December 24 2010 03:19 green.at wrote:
give an example for such a map. there are really not many of them.

I would appreciate if you didnt reply when you dont know what you're talking about.

Gimpb

246 Posts

December 23 2010 19:01 GMT

I'm guessing the OP is referring to something like delta quadrant where being one spot clockwise of someone is different than being counter clockwise. That's something I was thinking about before and it does seem like a situation where one person could get an advantage purely based on where they spawn in relation to the other. For example, it's easier to scout the front of the base clockwise from your starting position with an overlord.

Smurfz

United States327 Posts

December 23 2010 19:21 GMT

I think the way we have it now works pretty well.

Let's look at Metalopolis. It's symmetrical. However, spawning cross positions feels like a totally different map than playing close positions. Even though it's the same map, you have to adjust your play based on your spawn position and the opponents.

Faze.

Canada285 Posts

December 23 2010 19:53 GMT

Metalopolis is symmetrical, both close position are, the cross positions are a rotational symmetry that doesn't give any advantage to anyone. Delta quadrant has no real symmetry, it's purely rotation symmetry and on cross positions are "fair", close position give an advantage(small or not, it still is an advantage) to the player spawning further away in a clockwise rotation.
Delta Quadrant:
|
|
1 | 2
________|_________
|
|
4 | 3
|

1>4>3>2>1

On some maps the angle make it harder to wall off on certain spawn points.

neobowman

Canada3321 Posts

December 23 2010 19:56 GMT

#10

No, assymetrical maps suck. They ruin balance for little benifit. In SC1, there were 3 assymetrical maps I can remember. Baekmagoji, which was minor differences in each side so there was a horse image in the middle. Un'goro crater, which had most of the map mirrored and had a varied center, and Fantasy, which was a combination of 4 different maps.

BnK

United States489 Posts

December 23 2010 20:45 GMT

#11

On December 24 2010 03:19 green.at wrote:
give an example for such a map. there are really not many of them.

afaik. DQ, meta, xelnaga, scrap are not PERFECTLY symmetrical

zerglingsfolife

United States1694 Posts

December 23 2010 21:04 GMT

#12

There were a few asymmetrical maps for BW. These are just the ones off the top of my head, I'm sure there were probably more the older you go back into the database.

Fantasy I
+ Show Spoiler +

Fantasy II
+ Show Spoiler +

Alchemist
+ Show Spoiler +

Baekmagoji
+ Show Spoiler +

Fantasy II produced some of the most memorable and great games for BW.

green.at

Austria1459 Posts

December 24 2010 12:25 GMT

#13

On December 24 2010 03:47 InsertUsername wrote:

Show nested quote +

I would appreciate if you didnt reply when you dont know what you're talking about.

aww. you mad now? really stupid if you thought about maps like scrap station being asymmetrical xD
but hey good job! quality OP and very nice dude overall - all that with 10 posts.

I did reply cause i wanted to, i just wasnt sure what YOU are talking about. but hey, merry christmas.

Misoza

Australia545 Posts

December 24 2010 14:38 GMT

#14

u mad

User was warned for this post

mierin

United States4861 Posts

December 24 2010 14:55 GMT

#15

Green...please play zerg then talk about how Scrap is perfectly symmetrical.

green.at

Austria1459 Posts

December 24 2010 15:01 GMT

#16

On December 24 2010 23:55 mierin wrote:
Green...please play zerg then talk about how Scrap is perfectly symmetrical.

you're funny... i play random.
i know that the maps are not perfectly symmetrical. duh. but asymmetrical is something else. see zerglinsfolifes post.

some people need to learn that this is not the bnet forum ... show some respect and put effort in your OPs. I asked what he meant with asymmetrical, all i got was an insult.

Goolpsy

Denmark284 Posts

December 24 2010 15:08 GMT

#17

I don't really consider any of the maps really Assymetrical.. Maps like metalopoles gives different types of games depending on starting position, but its still - for all purposes - symetrical

So I would also like to know which maps you are refering to, if any?

theoretical answer: I would love to see some assymetrical maps, that will inspire different strategies depending on starting location and ensure (given a reasonal balance) that the map will be entertaining for a longer period of time.

Fruscainte

4343 Posts

December 24 2010 15:10 GMT

#18

On December 24 2010 21:25 green.at wrote:

Show nested quote +

aww. you mad now? really stupid if you thought about maps like scrap station being asymmetrical xD

but hey good job! quality OP and very nice dude overall - all that with 10 posts. (<- Nice Sarcasm)

I did reply cause i wanted to, i just wasnt sure what YOU are talking about. but hey, merry christmas.

some people need to learn that this is not the bnet forum ... show some respect

Oh the irony.

--------------------------------

A lot of the maps are asymmetrical and there are no benefits at all to it. It creates imbalanced gameplay, because at the end of the day one side is more favorable than the other, even if slightly and it becomes a roll of the dice who gets to spawn on that side. It's a complete joke, and needs to be fixed in my opinion.

Angra

United States2158 Posts

December 24 2010 15:11 GMT

#19

Asymmetrical maps are fine in terms of visual differences, or as long as both sides have the same advantages/disadvantages. The problem arises when there are major differences between the starting locations, like for example Scrap Station's distances from start location to ramp, or if there were a map with major differences in mineral/gas locations for how fast they are able to be mined.

DarkPlasmaBall

United States39695 Posts

December 24 2010 15:19 GMT

#20

In an effort to bring this thread back on topic, I'll directly answer the OP's question:

On December 24 2010 03:13 InsertUsername wrote:
dear Team Liquid, please enlighten me and share your opinions

what's the advantage of asymmetrical maps?
doesnt certain spawn positions favour | force certain strategies due to the maps being asymmetrical?
if so, what do you think about that?

Yes, asymmetrical maps *can* offer some advantages to certain starting locations and some detriments to others positions. This is because the map designers are purposely making different areas of the map different from one another. There are multiple things to take into account that can cause even the slightest imbalances between two starting locations. Here are four problems (though there are many others):
-How easy it is to wall of a chokepoint
-Mining distance for workers
-Position of bridges
-High ground vs. low ground advantage

Therefore, it would be ideal (because it would be the most fair) for maps to be perfectly balanced... which doesn't mean symmetrical, necessarily.

As Blizzard introduces more and more ways to make maps interesting (destructible rocks, watchtowers, etc.), perfectly balancing the maps based on starting locations makes it harder and harder. I don't think it ever really becomes impossible though, and so I'm definitely happy that Blizzard adds these new things.

EDIT: I like the idea of Scrap Station and its asymmetry (despite the fact that I don't play as Zerg), but there are a few problems to iron out before it becomes perfectly balanced based on starting locations.

Asymmetry =/= Not balanced.