Cleanse/Ghost, Cleanse/Flash I prefer Ghost, mainly because it covers more ground and lets you play reckless even after you've cast it, but some people swear by Flash because it helps you more against ranged DPS. It's all playstyle.
Edit: statikk always ran Clarity, and he also functioned fine in sidelane. I could never pull that bravery off because I love Cleanse. I'm not sure if he swapped it out based on opposing heroes.
Masteries
0/9/21 non-negotiable. He needs the summoner spells (esp. Cleanse), he needs buff duration, he needs meditation, and he needs SoS.
Runes
You have flexibility here based on your preference. I run MPen Quints and Marks, mana regen per level Seals, and AP per level Glyphs, with one MPen Glyph to let me hit 15 MPen. Some people like having Flat AP Quints instead.
Skill Order
Depends on matchup and whether you're in a solo lane. For instance, you level E against Sivir because Q is garbage. Also if you're conceding lane (died once to MF, or you need to creepclear vs Nidalee) you're better off leveling E over Q, because it lets you farm significantly faster. However if you think you can win the lane, leveling Q is good because with 700 range you'll knock around a lot of heroes. Beware: as of 11/4/2010 at higher Elos it's become significantly more difficult (if not impossible outright) to harass ranged DPS out of lanes because of triple D-Blade shenanigans, so it's probably better to just give up Q and focus on creep-clear and jumping around killing people. Also a W at level 2 is nice because you can get back a lot of mana this way.
Items
Very easy. Open Doran's Shield - doesn't need as much mana because of W, his laning power is more dictated by his HP. Then you want to open Catalyst. The only alternative to this is if you're side-lane and you're not doing horrific on mana, then you can open Soulstealer instead and work your way to Tears/GA/Arch or something like that. Be aware that Cata is as efficient EHP-wise as GA, though, and can also solve your mana issues, so it's preferred. That's not to say Tear/GA is not good - Tears is a stronger pure mana item, and one of the best Kass players before he retired (became an intern) basically swore by SS/GA while running Clarity. After Cata you have a lot of options, such as Zhonya (GJ style), Soulstealer, finishing RoA, making Banshee instead, etc.
Playing him
He's a poking initiating nuking snarebot, that can also get anywhere he wants to ward (pretty safe warding) and can push lanes/towers like a boss. There's almost nothing you can't do with Kassadin, so this is entirely your playstyle. I play him as a tanky initiating poking snarebot, generally de-prioritizing actual damage output (hence not getting ZRing as fast as people like GJ) - most people don't, they play him like this whonky terrible-burst (only two nukes) nuking vulture but hey, whatever floats your boat as long as it works.
Personally IMO one of the best KSers in the game, and we all already know he's good at taking out squishies.
Summoner Abilities
Generally when I play Kass I take Smite and Flash. Most people prefer ignite to guarantee a kill on an enemy but it's up to you really. Smite gets useless late game besides stealing neutrals but I find it really helpul for farming early game.
Flat Cooldown Glyphs for the 5-6% added with masteries will equal nearly 15%. Magic Pen Marls and Quintessence for 8.5 penetration. And flat MP5 seals for the early game.
Skill Order
Simple. Q first for last hits, then E whenever possible, until it maxes out. Then just max out your Q (and getting your R whenever possible of course) and W is last because it's useless for any AP Kass.
Items
The item order is really easy. Out of all the games I've ever played as Kass my most favourite item set happens to be
Alright so I don't claim to be a really good player or anything, but I do main Kassadin and I feel I'm pretty good with him. Now I'll explain my choices in summoner spells and stuff.
I pick smite because when I lane, I kill 100% of every tank minion that comes, with no trouble. I try to melee minions to save mana whenever the opportunity presents itself but otherwise I'm pretty conservative overall about using mana to kill minions. With this build it's imperative that you get a decent amount of minion kills because the first item that I usually get is either a meki pendant, sapphire crystal, or ability tome. It really doesn't matter, because it's all used to build your deathfire. Levels 1-6 is a pain in the ass if you're not in mid, because prior to it it's really difficult to kill anyone without running out of mana after blasting a null sphere and a force pulse and then dying because you're slow as hell while Garen spins you to death.
So basically I sit around and try to last hit minions as much as possible. Depending on how your laning phase goes, if you last hit really well, and think you're ahead in the money count, go ahead and get a deathfire. However, I usually get my boots somewhere in between. Once you have deathfire and sorc shoes you should try to gank someone or actively attempt to kill people so that you can get some more money. I still find that I run out of mana really quickly at this point so I still play conservatively and look for KSes (which is how I play lol). After getting a Tear mana should become relatively steady and shouldn't drain too fast from fighting people, since a rift walk in, combo, and rift walk out will drain nearly all your mana without any mana items. After your first archangels just go around and try to kill people. It shouldn't be too hard, but you're still extremely reliant on your allies at this point because your AP isn't at a high enough number yet. Just keep playing it safe and target all the people you should be targeting in any team fights.
As the game goes on it should be increasingly easy to farm as you just pulse a minion wave and it should disintegrate all of them, except for the tank minions and sometimes the melee minions. If you manage to get to the point of 2-3 Archangels you're starting to become really powerful. There isn't much to say about Kass except to do what he does best and keep taking out squishies. Remember to always use deathfire first. At level 3 your Rift Walk should be at a 2.8 second CD, from 4 because of your CDR runes and deathfire + masteries. This should make escaping extremely easy, added with the fact that your mana literally takes up to 6-7 consecutive rift walks to actually deplete. Once you get a Zhonya's ring it should be over for ANY one who doesn't have sufficient MR. You'll be toting around 800 AP and your force pulse and null sphere should easily be doing over 1000 damage each, along with Rift Walk doing probably around a base 500 (I'm going off my memory here). Deathfire grasp will do around 58% of your target's max HP in magic damage, and whatever is left should be easy enough to take out with Q + E.
Mind you, this build is for teams that have guys that don't pack a lot of MR. Even with a Banshee's veil someone like Ashe will still take loads of damage if not outright die from your combo. The key factor in winning team fights is either 1 of 2 things.
A) You KNOW you can take out a guy in 1 combo, so if you know this, initiate and take him out. 2.8 seconds later you'll be gone (unless you get CC'd to death but if you're coordinated with your team, they should already be in the fight the moment you initiate. B) You know you can take them out if they're at half HP or so, in this case let whoever your main initiator is, initiate, then jump in and take them out. The reason why I pack flash is that sometimes 2.8 seconds is STILL too long and with a build like this, you'll die really fast. The risk is in killing your opponent before they kill you.
I've personally gained a lot more love for this build ever since I've started killing Tryndamere's so fast that they haven't had the physical reaction time to even activate their ultimate.
Anywho, that's just my personal experience with this build, and after experiencing a lot of different builds I feel this is the build that is most fun to play, and is effective too. However, if there is an enemy Kassadin who gets Abyssal Scepter, Banshees, Rod or Lich Bane and such, you'll probably be screwed because he'll do way more damage to you than you will to him. Wandering off into bushes is the most dangerous thing to do since any pair of capable damage dealers with CC will take you out fast, but otherwise, with 2000-3000+ mana and insane mana regen you will have no trouble constantly chasing, or escaping anyone. Your damage output will be huge, even in the face of some basic MR (like Banshees on a carry), and deathfire is just insane with the amount of AP you have. An additional 28% (added to the base 30%) damage from your 800 AP alone.
Otherwise, have fun with it. Levels 1-6 are a major pain in the ass, but after that it picks up. I find Anivia to be an extremely good laning partner as the 2 nukes can deal some serious early game damage and sustain each other (if Anivia takes clarity that is).
Why not? I'm just sharing what's worked for me a great deal of times. Granted I'm not in 1600 ELO or anything, but if Southlight wants to open a new thread by all means he has every right.
I find that ignite isn't really required when late game your damage output is so high, and smite is really just to help me with farming as I'm not a pro last hitter, and killing every tank minion adds up.
On November 04 2010 16:17 NeoIllusions wrote: Smite on a non-jungle that isn't Gangplank?
Archangel's Staff if your recommended 3 - 5 items?
I think you should have let Southlight open the Kassadin thread.
Too bad Uta is in game, I was hoping for some comments immediately.
Basically at the point when you are suggesting to run smite on someone in lane that isn't Eve or GP you are just asking for people to troll or tell you to learn to last hit. That you are not a pro last hitter isn't a reason to get smite, it is a reason to learn to last hit better so you don't need smite.
Basically at the point when you are suggesting to run smite on someone in lane that isn't Eve or GP you are just asking for people to troll or tell you to learn to last hit. That you are not a pro last hitter isn't a reason to get smite, it is a reason to learn to last hit better so you don't need smite.
Sure I accept that, but considering I only ever play 5 man premades with my friends I take smite and it works for me. I've already mentioned in the OP that every other Kassadin will take Ignite and that's a perfectly fine choice.
Sometime's it just isn't possible to last hit as much as you'd want to. a Level 1 Q is really hard to take out a tank minion with dependent on your laning ally who could have a much better last hitting skill.
Actually it is a problem, since I mentioned with the above build that every single minion matters and you should try to farm up as much as possible to get your items ASAP.
I don't feel like it's a waste since being a melee caster, Kassadin has a hard time going against harassment to last hit minions, and considering that a lowly leveled Q has quite a CD time, it just literally isn't possible to get as many last hits as one might want with each eave of minions. That's how I feel about it anyway.
Yeah I guess you would need improved smite (and farming for an hour) to get your recommended items. lol :x
Naw, after a certain amount of farm and after deathfire/sorc shoes you should go straight to ganking, and if no one has given first blood yet then it would be the best opportunity to get it.
Cleanse/Ghost, Cleanse/Flash I prefer Ghost, mainly because it covers more ground and lets you play reckless even after you've cast it, but some people swear by Flash because it helps you more against ranged DPS. It's all playstyle.
Edit: statikk always ran Clarity, and he also functioned fine in sidelane. I could never pull that bravery off because I love Cleanse. I'm not sure if he swapped it out based on opposing heroes.
Masteries
0/9/21 non-negotiable. He needs the summoner spells (esp. Cleanse), he needs buff duration, he needs meditation, and he needs SoS.
Runes
You have flexibility here based on your preference. I run MPen Quints and Marks, mana regen per level Seals, and AP per level Glyphs, with one MPen Glyph to let me hit 15 MPen. Some people like having Flat AP Quints instead.
Skill Order
Depends on matchup and whether you're in a solo lane. For instance, you level E against Sivir because Q is garbage. Also if you're conceding lane (died once to MF, or you need to creepclear vs Nidalee) you're better off leveling E over Q, because it lets you farm significantly faster. However if you think you can win the lane, leveling Q is good because with 700 range you'll knock around a lot of heroes. Beware: as of 11/4/2010 at higher Elos it's become significantly more difficult (if not impossible outright) to harass ranged DPS out of lanes because of triple D-Blade shenanigans, so it's probably better to just give up Q and focus on creep-clear and jumping around killing people. Also a W at level 2 is nice because you can get back a lot of mana this way.
Items
Very easy. Open Doran's Shield - doesn't need as much mana because of W, his laning power is more dictated by his HP. Then you want to open Catalyst. The only alternative to this is if you're side-lane and you're not doing horrific on mana, then you can open Soulstealer instead and work your way to Tears/GA/Arch or something like that. Be aware that Cata is as efficient EHP-wise as GA, though, and can also solve your mana issues, so it's preferred. That's not to say Tear/GA is not good - Tears is a stronger pure mana item, and one of the best Kass players before he retired (became an intern) basically swore by SS/GA while running Clarity. After Cata you have a lot of options, such as Zhonya (GJ style), Soulstealer, finishing RoA, making Banshee instead, etc.
Playing him
He's a poking initiating nuking snarebot, that can also get anywhere he wants to ward (pretty safe warding) and can push lanes/towers like a boss. There's almost nothing you can't do with Kassadin, so this is entirely your playstyle. I play him as a tanky initiating poking snarebot, generally de-prioritizing actual damage output (hence not getting ZRing as fast as people like GJ) - most people don't, they play him like this whonky terrible-burst (only two nukes) nuking vulture but hey, whatever floats your boat as long as it works.
Being bad at last hitting does not justify getting smite. Get better at it and grab a better summoner skill.
Honestly it's funny how many of you all tell me I'm not justified in taking smite when clearly, it's my playstyle. If you're good at last hitting, good for you. Not everyone on Earth is as boss as you at last hitting, so if you want to take a better summoner spell, by all means go ahead, no one ever said you couldn't.
Being bad at last hitting does not justify getting smite. Get better at it and grab a better summoner skill.
Honestly it's funny how many of you all tell me I'm not justified in taking smite when clearly, it's my playstyle. If you're good at last hitting, good for you. Not everyone on Earth is as boss as you at last hitting, so if you want to take a better summoner spell, by all means go ahead, no one ever said you couldn't.
No offense intended, but there's a different between "playstyle" and just poor play.
No offense intended, but there's a different between "playstyle" and just poor play.
No offense intended, but if you honestly think just by looking at a summoner skill you can determine someone's play, then you're ignorant.
A bunch of you are acting like elitists thinking someone has poor play because of a summoner spell in choice? How typical of TL. Guess the stereotype of TL being nothing but a bunch of elitists does ring true though other forums.
It's getting tiresome repeating myself. If you have an issue with how someone plays then you have problems, sir. Let's see the facts here.
I never said smite was the best spell to take, and it helps with farming, simply because it's my play style.
You guys attack me, the player, but have nothing to actually say against the guide, now do you? Do I say smite is the best spell? Did I not say Ignite is good too?
If I said I take ignite instead does that suddenly make me a better player? By your classification it does, because obviously you deemed that you could decide poor play from looking at someone's summoner spell.
There's something apparently ALL of you don't seem to understand. Taking smite is not a substitute for last hitting. Have I ever said that once you take smite, you can't improve on your last hitting? No.
You all seem to think that I have a permanent playstyle based around smite, that just because I took smite I can't also improve my last hitting at the same time. Who knows? Maybe eventually I'll move past the 'crutch' of taking smite over Ignite, however, you're all apparently under the assumption that because I take smite I have no intent on getting better at last hitting.
Wait, what is this? The whole OP is total nonsense. Please, let Southlight make the Kassadin thread. -_- At least he knows what he's talking about.
I get Cleanse-Ghost as my summoners, helps with running away, living and chasing. The build I like to do is RoA -> Archangel, but it really starts to kick in when you finish Archangel(you'll jump right up to about 300 APM). Before that you're pretty useless. This build relies on you farming both RoA and Archangel at a significant pace(before 25min both hopefully).
After that you can get GA or Zhonyas, I'd get the other after the other. After that, Abyssal or Veil if they have lots of magic damage, or just get a second Archangel or Void Staff if needed.
My playstyle is pretty farm-intensive early on, only ganking when someone comes to my lane to gank. As the teamfights start going on, though, you basically want to stay away from their tank / burst(VEIGAR >_>) / whatever you feel threatened by. Then you should just poke around, spamming your E when you can, using ulti to run, using Q to give you a moment of safety to get close enough to E, etc. After they're low, you basically are going to try to snipe them off one by one.
Always aim for the weakest enemies like the ranged DPS or the supports. Kassadin IMO isn't too good vs tanks despite some people saying so, his burst is pretty much wasted on them and he really should go after them after taking care of the squishies first. He's decent at poking them and staying untouchable, though.
EDIT: Oh southlight came to the rescue, I guess this post isn't too useful >_>
No offense intended, but there's a different between "playstyle" and just poor play.
No offense intended, but if you honestly think just by looking at a summoner skill you can determine someone's play, then you're ignorant.
A bunch of you are acting like elitists thinking someone has poor play because of a summoner spell in choice? How typical of TL. Guess the stereotype of TL being nothing but a bunch of elitists does ring true though other forums.
It's getting tiresome repeating myself. If you have an issue with how someone plays then you have problems, sir. Let's see the facts here.
I never said smite was the best spell to take, and it helps with farming, simply because it's my play style.
You guys attack me, the player, but have nothing to actually say against the guide, now do you? Do I said smite is the best spell? Did I not say Ignite is good too?
If I said I take ignite instead does that suddenly make me a better player? By your classification it does, because obviously you deemed that you could decide poor play from looking at someone's summoner spell.
There's something apparently ALL of you don't seem to understand. Taking smite is not a substitute for last hitting. Have I ever said that once you take smite, you can't improve on your last hitting? No.
You all seem to think that I have a permanent playstyle based around smite, that just because I took smite I can't also improve my last hitting at the same time. Who knows? Maybe eventually I'll move past the 'crutch' of taking smite over Ignite, however, you're all apparently under the assumption that because I take smite I have no intent on getting better at last hitting.
It's smite, that's not a "choice" it's a NEVER-type of a summoner spell for a laner like Kassadin. It's like picking Revive and saying it's just a style of play.
It's smite, that's not a "choice" it's a NEVER-type of a summoner spell for a laner like Kassadin. It's like picking Revive and saying it's just a style of play.
I like how you think you can claim these things as facts. Do you honestly believe yourself right now? Another elitist in this thread, who thinks that a Kassadin who takes smite is a total nub and should be disregarded. I mean boy, I wonder what the point of this thread was? Was it to share our guides? Or was it to all criticize someone else's playstyle?
On November 05 2010 02:16 Pandonetho wrote: You guys attack me, the player, but have nothing to actually say against the guide, now do you? Do I said smite is the best spell? Did I not say Ignite is good too?
Shrinking it down to this one line, but that's not correct either. Plenty was said about the guide itself as well(skill order, item build, masteries, lane playstyle). Also, even ignite isn't the 'preferred' alternative to smite, Kass's one big time danger is getting caught in a cc chain after a rift, so cleanse allows you to play far more aggressive(wrecklessly even sometimes).
You're getting defensive because the forum holds itself to a standard, if it really makes you that mad I don't know what to say... guides(typically) are meant to show how to optimally do something, this guide is not showing how to optimally play Kass. Thus the criticism.
It's not just this thread either, so don't feel too bad ?
Is it really a guide for newbies if you're the only person who uses this playstyle and everyone else thinks it's subpar? The point of making these guide threads isn't really to emphasize your particular playstyle but instead to help people understand what they're even meant to be accomplishing with their champion. I'd argue that a new player shouldn't learn a bad habit like taking smite instead of learning to last hit, personally.
Shrinking it down to this one line, but that's not correct either. Plenty was said about the guide itself as well(skill order, item build, masteries, lane playstyle).
Nice, now I instantly know you haven't read the thread. Find me ONE quote besides the first post, talking about anything other than smite.
The first post wasn't even constructive, you call that forum standards?
Don't post if you haven't read anything.
Is it really a guide for newbies if you're the only person who uses this playstyle and everyone else thinks it's subpar? The point of making these guide threads isn't really to emphasize your particular playstyle but instead to help people understand what they're even meant to be accomplishing with their champion. I'd argue that a new player shouldn't learn a bad habit like taking smite instead of learning to last hit, personally.
So what you're saying is... we should all be elites and post nothing but guides that are used by pros. Oh in which case how many different builds could we see in this thread? One? Two? The Archangels build is not my invention. Neither is taking smite.
Since you're all so inclined, you may as well all call me a noob. But guess what, this build works. Just check my profile in LoL (Pandonetho) And you'll see that I'm hardly a feeder in all the ranked games I've played as Kass.
Last but not least, I said I personally take smite. I never said it was the best choice, and there's an ample amount of posts in here already that talk about how bad smite is on a non jungler.
It's smite, that's not a "choice" it's a NEVER-type of a summoner spell for a laner like Kassadin. It's like picking Revive and saying it's just a style of play.
I like how you think you can claim these things as facts. Do you honestly believe yourself right now? Another elitist in this thread, who thinks that a Kassadin who takes smite is a total nub and should be disregarded. I mean boy, I wonder what the point of this thread was? Was it to share our guides? Or was it to all criticize someone else's playstyle?
What? Yeah, I do believe it's terrible to take Smite on a laning Kassadin, it's like only picking one summoner skill. Or revive.
You should probably stop taking these comments as personal attacks.
TeamLiquid has a tendency to be a little over the top when it comes to competitive play. Because after all, the site is modeled to cover high level, competitive StarCraft. With that being said, a lot of the "hardcore" players carry over to League of Legends as well.
With your specific situation, taking Smite on a caster like Kassadin is bad, whether you want to accept it or not. Why do we consider it a bad move? Because you would never see players at the highest competitive level of LoL take smite on a non-jungle. It is a "selfish" summoner spell and brings nothing to team fights. Junglers must carry Smite to help control buffs. Your guide on the other hand, is suggesting that Smite be used to last hit the siege minions. Something you should either last hit with auto attack or even with Null Sphere instead.
Like someone said before, there is a difference between playstyle and incorrect play. Picking Attack Speed or Armor Pen Marks on a Jungler is a matter of play style. Picking Smite over Ignite on Kassadin is simply wrong play. The purpose of Smite can be neglected with better micro.
You can use Smite as you want in your own games but players seeking out guides tend to look for the most efficient and effective builds.
Shrinking it down to this one line, but that's not correct either. Plenty was said about the guide itself as well(skill order, item build, masteries, lane playstyle).
Nice, now I instantly know you haven't read the thread. Find me ONE quote besides the first post, talking about anything other than smite.
The first post wasn't even constructive, you call that forum standards?
Is it really a guide for newbies if you're the only person who uses this playstyle and everyone else thinks it's subpar? The point of making these guide threads isn't really to emphasize your particular playstyle but instead to help people understand what they're even meant to be accomplishing with their champion. I'd argue that a new player shouldn't learn a bad habit like taking smite instead of learning to last hit, personally.
So what you're saying is... we should all be elites and post nothing but guides that are used by pros. Oh in which case how many different builds could we see in this thread? One? Two? The Archangels build is not my invention. Neither is taking smite.
Since you're all so inclined, you may as well all call me a noob. But guess what, this build works. Just check my profile in LoL (Pandonetho) And you'll see that I'm hardly a feeder in all the ranked games I've played as Kass.
Last but not least, I said I personally take smite. I never said it was the best choice, and there's an ample amount of posts in here already that talk about how bad smite is on a non jungler.
Shrinking it down to this one line, but that's not correct either. Plenty was said about the guide itself as well(skill order, item build, masteries, lane playstyle).
Nice, now I instantly know you haven't read the thread. Find me ONE quote besides the first post, talking about anything other than smite.
The first post wasn't even constructive, you call that forum standards?
Don't post if you haven't read anything.
Southlight's entire post?
Between him and Neo addressing those other points, and you only getting defensive about smite, of course people are going to continue to debate you on that point instead of the others; until you bring the others back up and I call you on it.
Not holding any punches, this 'guide' looks like it belongs on leaguecraft, I(and most here) are going to be very apathetic about the level of offense you take from that.
Also, even if you're using smite to help your farm, you should try and use that at low minion hp anyways. Dropping 450+ damage off the siege minion is going to get your lane pushing faster than it already would from typical last hitting.
You can use Smite as you want in your own games but players seeking out guides tend to look for the most efficient and effective builds.
And therein lies the problem doesn't it? I totally said that smite is a top tier ability on Kass, and I definitely said that everyone should take it because it's what all the top level players do. And personally, I'm not taking anything personally. I'm just getting irritated at the nonstop amount of elitists here ragging on me as a player.
If you're so inclined would you like me to be oh so humble and edit my guide to say smite sucks, but since I'm a shitty player only I take it and that all other cases of play should be taken with ignite or cleanse?
Southlight's entire post?
You specifically said plenty was said about my guide other than smite. You're wrong. Southlight's entire post doesn't cover my guide, it's his guide.
Because you wrote a guide, wrote that you took Smite, and insist that it's a playstyle thing when it's a crutch. And then you further contradict yourself by admitting that you suck at last-hitting, and so your smite is a crutch and that one day you might graduate from it... while also saying you're not bad and that it's a playstyle choice to take Smite.
Playstyle is the difference between my Tankassadin, Grandjudge's Vulture Kassadin, DOGkaiser's DPS Kassadin, and statikk's SS/GA/Clarity Kassadin, among many, many others others (Eu DFG Kassadin is also a playstyle, although I think it's a horrible one and only works against bad players/team comps). Especially true when you consider that Kassadin is a highly flexible hero with a strong base selection of spells and a relatively high ceiling for potential (although I still maintain ranged DPS > him, especially teams that babysit their ranged DPS).
Playstyle is not shoring up a weakness by doing something you shouldn't.
Also:
On November 04 2010 16:17 NeoIllusions wrote: Archangel's Staff if your recommended 3 - 5 items?
...and this is why I personally think the 1 thread/champion idea is dumb and we should have high elo players have access to update the wiki and just use that for guides. Champion discussion threads seem fine, but when it comes to guide writing, I think we want to promote well respected players writing guides that benefit from their experiences playing with the best of the best instead of people suggesting AA Stack and Smite...
Clearly I'm not going to be convincing anyone here, so I give up. Do whatever you want, I'm leaving my post but a mod can go ahead and change it for all I care.
Really, I'd like to play with all of you someday because I'm sure that's the only way anyone would ever prove themselves to be 'worthy' in the eyes of TL.
On November 05 2010 02:38 Mogwai wrote: ...and this is why I personally think the 1 thread/champion idea is dumb and we should have high elo players have access to update the wiki and just use that for guides. Champion discussion threads seem fine, but when it comes to guide writing, I think we want to promote well respected players writing guides that benefit from their experiences playing with the best of the best instead of people suggesting AA Stack and Smite...
Work in progress yo. And this was simply one thread. There are other ones that I've taken a liking to, like the Olaf one.
In the end, our "high elo" bunch from LP will have a say in what goes into the Guides/Builds Sticky as quality.
On November 05 2010 02:40 Pandonetho wrote: Clearly I'm not going to be convincing anyone here, so I give up. Do whatever you want, I'm leaving my post but a mod can go ahead and change it for all I care.
Really, I'd like to play with all of you someday because I'm sure that's the only way anyone would ever prove themselves to be 'worthy' in the eyes of TL.
You're taking this too personally. It has nothing to do with seeing you personally as a bad player, just that smite on a non-jungler is considered poor play, period. I would question it even if Southlight wrote it.
So what you're saying is... we should all be elites and post nothing but guides that are used by pros. Oh in which case how many different builds could we see in this thread? One? Two? The Archangels build is not my invention. Neither is taking smite.
Since you're all so inclined, you may as well all call me a noob. But guess what, this build works. Just check my profile in LoL (Pandonetho) And you'll see that I'm hardly a feeder in all the ranked games I've played as Kass.
Last but not least, I said I personally take smite. I never said it was the best choice, and there's an ample amount of posts in here already that talk about how bad smite is on a non jungler.
There is a very big difference between 'being an elitist' and 'wanting to offer viable information' and I wish you would stop interpreting them incorrectly. When someone says your playstyle is bad for a certain champion or that smite is impractical, that is not a personal attack and you don't have to immediately get defensive. That is someone letting you know that you could be playing differently and as a result, better. If someone posted a build order that was subpar or less practical in the Brood War section, we'd close it because of the aforementioned "we aim to be good at games" factor on TL.
I'm not saying your playstyle is bad and nobody has even called you a noob. For you, maybe it's incredibly effective. But you have to realize you are not putting your own playstyle on display, you're making a hero as good as he can be and covering what points you need to in order for someone to know what they're doing when they pick a hero.
Never mind, I opened another tab and saw you've already martyred yourself.
So what you're saying is... we should all be elites and post nothing but guides that are used by pros. Oh in which case how many different builds could we see in this thread? One? Two? The Archangels build is not my invention. Neither is taking smite.
Since you're all so inclined, you may as well all call me a noob. But guess what, this build works. Just check my profile in LoL (Pandonetho) And you'll see that I'm hardly a feeder in all the ranked games I've played as Kass.
Last but not least, I said I personally take smite. I never said it was the best choice, and there's an ample amount of posts in here already that talk about how bad smite is on a non jungler.
There is a very big difference between 'being an elitist' and 'wanting to offer viable information' and I wish you would stop interpreting them incorrectly. When someone says your playstyle is bad for a certain champion or that smite is impractical, that is not a personal attack and you don't have to immediately get defensive. That is someone letting you know that you could be playing differently and as a result, better. If someone posted a build order that was subpar or less practical in the Brood War section, we'd close it because of the aforementioned "we aim to be good at games" factor on TL.
I'm not saying your playstyle is bad and nobody has even called you a noob. For you, maybe it's incredibly effective. But you have to realize you are not putting your own playstyle on display, you're making a hero as good as he can be and covering what points you need to in order for someone to know what they're doing when they pick a hero.
Never mind, I opened another tab and saw you've already martyred yourself.
I can see why they promoted you to Banlings. Rather articulate.
So what you're saying is... we should all be elites and post nothing but guides that are used by pros. Oh in which case how many different builds could we see in this thread? One? Two? The Archangels build is not my invention. Neither is taking smite.
Since you're all so inclined, you may as well all call me a noob. But guess what, this build works. Just check my profile in LoL (Pandonetho) And you'll see that I'm hardly a feeder in all the ranked games I've played as Kass.
Last but not least, I said I personally take smite. I never said it was the best choice, and there's an ample amount of posts in here already that talk about how bad smite is on a non jungler.
I'm not saying your playstyle is bad and nobody has even called you a noob. For you, maybe it's incredibly effective. But you have to realize you are not putting your own playstyle on display, you're making a hero as good as he can be and covering what points you need to in order for someone to know what they're doing when they pick a hero.
I was about to write something like this myself but with worse english. I kind of disagree with the incredibly effective part though, its pretty much impossible for smite to be effective for kassadin especially when he said he mostly smites the tank mob and therefore pushes the lane.
I'm not sure how you think hiding in plain sight is a good way to get out of something you got yourself into.
Writing a guide should help people get into the way people play a character, not into your own personal view of it that nobody shares and agrees with. You have to think that not everyone opening your guide wants to pick up kass, a lot of people just check character guides because they hate them and are only looking for a way to counter them, and your build is too different from what everyone else considers kass to be.
Another thing, you have to keep in mind that the TL forums are message boards, they are not made to upvote/downvote threads and thank god we don't have a karma meter function. Therefore, when you are rushing to post a guide you are taking the spot from a more well known and trusted player, ratings aside.
That said, I came to the kass guide thread looking for an Uta kass guide to read and it's pretty annoying to have to scroll down a few posts whenever I need to take a peek at it. Imo start another thread.
I'm not sure how you think hiding in plain sight is a good way to get out of something you got yourself into.
I'm sorry I just have to reply to this.
You think I'm hiding in plain sight to get out of something I got myself into? What do you think this is, that I'm trying to squirm out of a sticky situation?
I get it, people think smite is bad on Kass. By all means start up a new thread. There's no further point in me posting or debating my position when it's so unanimously decided that it's a bad position.
Without further adieu I guess I'll go back to 'hiding in plain sight from the many eyes of the internet'.
I don't get it... if you're going to post a guide, you're going to get criticism. You're allowed to take smite for all I care and people are allowed to say that it sucks or ghost/cleanse/flash is better or whatever.
So what you're saying is... we should all be elites and post nothing but guides that are used by pros. Oh in which case how many different builds could we see in this thread? One? Two? The Archangels build is not my invention. Neither is taking smite.
Since you're all so inclined, you may as well all call me a noob. But guess what, this build works. Just check my profile in LoL (Pandonetho) And you'll see that I'm hardly a feeder in all the ranked games I've played as Kass.
Yes, I actually would like to see only the agreed to be optimal build for that champion in the OP of all champion topics, with all its variations if you want, but let the OP be the best guide possible for that champion.
Everyone can then use it as they like and obviously divert from it, according to their playstyle.
When I check Leaguecraft for a guide, I look at the top rated ones and even then I can see they are not optimal, and thats when I come to TL and ask for a quick build, because it's what TL is for, "progaming", I want the best possible use of that champion. Of course you can be great with your build, but we shouldn't let it be the one in the OP, which is the one newbies will read first.
I propose that all OP of champions be made by one of the accepted gosus of the TL community, or if someone opens with an actual optimal build, let it stay there. Or just edited.
Honestly, put southlight's post in a link at the top, put an elo disclaimer (i'm xxxx elo and this works for me) and im ok with it. Southlight is a recognized kass player at high elo and i want his post at least mentioned in the op. Any other guides, add links for them and have descriptions for them as well (keep it short and sweet). I said this earlier, as long as the OP has some decent formatting and has links to significant discussion, i dont care whatever else is in it, it could be garbage for all i care.
this thread is a trainwreck. to the OP. people dont really have a problem with you running whatever fits your style. the issue is that when you write a guide that represents TL to new LoL players, they want it to be something that is optimal.
that being said kass' second summoner spell is definitely a preference thing. i get ghost because the meta is so bloated with ghosts, it feels bad to not have one for chases etc. but teleport could be good for some map control. and there arent any extremely necessary reasons to take a certain second summoner spell. although taking smite purely for farm is very meh... smite is best used for jungling because its important when getting the super neutral creeps. and just hitting the cannon minion is a very suboptimal use of a summoner skill slot.
and a final note. dont take stuff on the internet so seriously. itll make you a much happier person.
Not really sure why OP insists on fervently defending obvious deficiencies in his game. Sure, it may work for you at 1300 elo, but maybe if you took advice from the more experienced players you'd have something that works at a higher elo?
He's a poking initiating nuking snarebot, that can also get anywhere he wants to ward (pretty safe warding) and can push lanes/towers like a boss. There's almost nothing you can't do with Kassadin, so this is entirely your playstyle. I play him as a tanky initiating poking snarebot, generally de-prioritizing actual damage output (hence not getting ZRing as fast as people like GJ) - most people don't, they play him like this whonky terrible-burst (only two nukes) nuking vulture but hey, whatever floats your boat as long as it works.
I specifically wanted to emphasize this part of the post, there are a lot of things you can do with Kassadin, and his game is pretty dependent on staying alive until 6 while last hitting a good amount. I've been playing Kassadin quite a bit for a while now, and his versatility is amazing.
About the only constant I've seen across my games, is that in almost every situation I will go Catalyst first, and then decide what to build next - RoA, Zhonyas, Mejais; there are situations where each and every Kassadin build can work very well. In the several months I have spent learning Kassadin, I still don't feel like I have him mastered, learning how to last hit effectively with him can be a huge pain - I think I'll try a few games with a Shield opener like Utahime was talking about, I almost exclusively open Ring and will end up buying 2 or 3 occasionally depending on the team, but a single Shield plus an earlier point in W with a Q heavy playstyle might work out really well in some of those tougher lanes.
Sort of unfortunate that it was Kassadin the OP chose. Were it most other champs, people probably wouldn't have jumped on him so fast. Of course, TL has Utahime as "Number 1 Kass" so a Kassadin thread that's not started by Southlight just attracts a bunch of attention.
ya, thats specifically why i chose urgot, not many ppl give 2 shits about him, so even if i post complete bullcrap, no1's gonna flame me for it. It was more of a model to show what i think a good op looks like (with help from ppl)
personally i dislike cleanse on any hero now unless it's a counter pick, e.g. they have ashe/sion/pantheon or something gay like that. i like flash because it's just so useful for all kinds of situations and ignite is cool on kass since he snowballs so hard so a firstblood is worth a summoner skill slot imo.
but i play more of a hardcore ap kass style and i just really care about doing as much damage as possible
and i copied dogkaisers mercury catalyst zhonya void staff build lol, #1 build
I think it's really playstyle dependant ;/ As people who've seen me play Kass can attest, I play extremely, extremely aggressive. I'm usually first one in, last one out. When you Rift into range to snare half their team, it's inevitable you'll get at least one CC fired at you... unless the other team has a terrible team comp. That's what my Cleanse is for... and I've been known to get frustrated even at a single (!) Rammus. I've tried running other stuff but I just keep coming back to it.
With regards to Flash... well, I think I made my stance on it clear in my short "guide." I don't have a recommendation of either: I prefer Ghost because of its distance-covered and duration, many prefer Flash because it's better vs. ranged DPS.
On November 05 2010 15:12 TheYango wrote: Sort of unfortunate that it was Kassadin the OP chose. Were it most other champs, people probably wouldn't have jumped on him so fast. Of course, TL has Utahime as "Number 1 Kass" so a Kassadin thread that's not started by Southlight just attracts a bunch of attention.
For whatever it's worth, I disagree. Were he to have made an Annie, Morg, Ryze, etc. guide with Smite, he'd have received the same "O_o LOL" sort of response. I think the only thing that made things become a clusterfuck was that after I made my relatively harmless (I hope? I didn't inject much emotion into it except for the first sentence) response guide I felt like he became super defensive about his selection of Smite as a summoner spell, and became increasingly hostile and martyr-like, even through relatively rational responses like NeoIllusion's.
On November 05 2010 15:12 TheYango wrote: Sort of unfortunate that it was Kassadin the OP chose. Were it most other champs, people probably wouldn't have jumped on him so fast. Of course, TL has Utahime as "Number 1 Kass" so a Kassadin thread that's not started by Southlight just attracts a bunch of attention.
For whatever it's worth, I disagree. Were he to have made an Annie, Morg, Ryze, etc. guide with Smite, he'd have received the same "O_o LOL" sort of response. I think the only thing that made things become a clusterfuck was that after I made my relatively harmless (I hope? I didn't inject much emotion into it except for the first sentence) response guide I felt like he became super defensive about his selection of Smite as a summoner spell, and became increasingly hostile and martyr-like, even through relatively rational responses like NeoIllusion's.
I think you owe the OP an apology for stealing his smite idea, though.
On November 05 2010 15:12 TheYango wrote: Sort of unfortunate that it was Kassadin the OP chose. Were it most other champs, people probably wouldn't have jumped on him so fast. Of course, TL has Utahime as "Number 1 Kass" so a Kassadin thread that's not started by Southlight just attracts a bunch of attention.
For whatever it's worth, I disagree. Were he to have made an Annie, Morg, Ryze, etc. guide with Smite, he'd have received the same "O_o LOL" sort of response. I think the only thing that made things become a clusterfuck was that after I made my relatively harmless (I hope? I didn't inject much emotion into it except for the first sentence) response guide I felt like he became super defensive about his selection of Smite as a summoner spell, and became increasingly hostile and martyr-like, even through relatively rational responses like NeoIllusion's.
Morg/Annie maybe. I don't think a Ryze thread would get enough attention, period.
Plus, with Ryze, he could always fall back on the excuse of "troll spells for a troll champ".
Morg, Annie, Ashe, MF, TF, Twitch, whatever, the list is long for heroes that don't jungle and really have no place taking Smite: he would have received the same reaction for any hero that's not just a "lol Urgot" sort of hero, particularly once he started getting defensive, is my point.
On November 05 2010 16:09 Southlight wrote: Morg, Annie, Ashe, MF, TF, Twitch, whatever, the list is long for heroes that don't jungle and really have no place taking Smite: he would have received the same reaction for any hero that's not just a "lol Urgot" sort of hero, particularly once he started getting defensive, is my point.
Oh I got your point, I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.
Regardless, this whole issue has probably derailed the Kass thread far too long.
Personally IMO one of the best melee DPS heroes in the game, because Riot said so. Also, we are null and void.
Summoner Abilities
Smite and Rally, the real man's setup. Smite to farm faster because a farmed Kass is hilarious, Rally because it's great for trolling people.
Masteries
20/0/10 baby. Improved Rally and 10% crit damage (no need for the base 5%), and double Util buff because Liz/Golem are wondaful, especially with your small mana pool.
Runes
I ran my Shen page, but a Twitch page probably works better (Armor Pen Quints and Marks, flat armor Seals and some sort of MR Glyphs). Too bad I don't own Armor Pen Quints.
Skill Order
QWQWQRE and then whatever you want. Q for harassing, W for killing people and getting mana back. Actually if you can control Liz you don't even need the E there.
Items
Open Doran's Shield. As always, health is more a mitigating factor for laning presence than mana. Ideally you'd probably open Guinsoo but I've opened BF Sword (and then gotten confused), it's do-able. Zerker Greaves, Ghostblade, Infinity Edge, some sort of lifesteal, Last Whisper, etc. are all recommended items. Trinity Force ASAP is also highly recommended because it lets you not die while giving you some good stats.
With Q and W you can control your lane just as well as a usual Kass player. Focus on farming, especially by using Smite on Siege Tank creeps. Remember, as long as you hit level 6 you're invincible. Except against Warwick, because that hero's an asshole. Keep farming, keep pushing towers, keep smacking people with your imba poke -> teleport -> snare -> DIE combo. Profit.
At some point you may want to double/triple pot to cement your advantage or turn the tide in your favor. Preferably after you get at least one heavy DPS item, because unlike heroes like Kayle/Trist it takes a bit for Kassadin to take advantage of them. Flat armor reduc items are better for a significant amount of time than Last Whisper because of W being ridiculous. Don't feel pressed to build LW -> IE, something bizarre like BT -> TriForce works fine too. Life Steal is a premium because he has some survivability issues. Remember to use Rally liberally to turn the tide of fights.
Southlight's guide is a very powerful and practical playstyle for kassadin similar to my own. The only dispute I have is that exhaust should be taken over rally so while you jungle with smite you have a secondary snare to better secure ganks without necessarily needing lizard.
Ok sorry, didnt notice that OP was changed. Good for him that he asked for it yourself. Gives back some of the lost respect. TL can be harsh but just never take it personal.
OMG. The OP is a nice try, but I would really wish he would edit it to southlights guide. His guide is much more general and giving tips to new players. As others have said, OP, the biggest problem with your "guide" is not the guide itself, but that it is the first guide new Kass players are going to read, and some of them maybe do. When instead, a general tips and playstyles from a top elo Kassadin could be there, and then you could post your personal playstyle "guide" below in a later post as a discussion.
If you post a guide and/or strategy on TL and it is ineffective/not-the-best/bad people will point this out. Don't pull out the "elitist" card so fast. Come on. You open a thread that says KASS GUIDE, of course good players and top players are going to pick it apart because they simply disagree.
As an even better example of you overreacting is that even if Southlight made this guide, people (like me e.g.) would state that "I think that and that is better than what you say" and Southlight would not get defensive but say "If your playstyle is that and that, this might be viable but blablabla". Instead of saying "You are all elitist"
On November 05 2010 18:07 UniversalSnip wrote: Man fuck, I actually came in here just to ask about deepz kassadin because it seemed like a great build to troll with.
Rageblade first doesn't seem optional :<
Not sure if RGB is even that "optimal" because it's not like he benefits that much from the AP, and his attack speed is purty good.
should have been warned/banned for self-martyring, one of the most smugly narcissistic things one can do on the internet
What's so narcissistic about it? Let alone I don't even know what self-martyring is. I simply replied that I have no further thoughts on this whole debate because it would only derail the thread farther with needless arguments. If you wanted me to keep arguing then you should have said so.
If you post a guide and/or strategy on TL and it is ineffective/not-the-best/bad people will point this out. Don't pull out the "elitist" card so fast. Come on. You open a thread that says KASS GUIDE, of course good players and top players are going to pick it apart because they simply disagree.
Yeah, I did overreact eventually so I apologize about that. In any case I've already gotten over it. Back to self-martyring I guess.
Ok yeah I am gonna go ahead and close this thread. Southlight you can make a thread and add your REAL guide to the OP. Anyone else is free to post their guides too, but expect criticism.
EPT
Rather articulate.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/GjNBc.png)
