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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
terran has hellions for harassment, hellions are far more balanced, they don't need reapers; it's almost impossible to balance reapers - useful for harass = probably OP vs zerg, not useful for harass = completely crappy unit; reapers would be balanced, if zerg had a choice between either going anti-harassment-style or economic-style; but since zerg is FORCED to go economic-style by game-design, there is no strategical element or meta-game at work | ||
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Nilrem
United States3684 Posts
I understand that in the makeup of a force, you wont really have them in the mix. When you have a large army of mmm, you do not really see reapers. So in terms of unit composition, it wouldn't be in the main force. But alas, you can still being an annoyance. They are not very costly and the distraction can cost the enemy to have their units in a bad spot. I hate being harassed early game by them, but eh, I think in the future they may end up being used in other ways. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On September 23 2010 18:12 billyX333 wrote: if reapers were completely removed from the game, the balance of the matchups would be completely unchanged terran already has enough viable openings which are just as strong but playing against reapers is incredibly frustrating (and NOT fun) it really hurts the game for me from a zerg perspective reapers are bad when players dont know how to control them, but they're rage inducing when pros control them. i hate this unit. if they removed it from the game zvt would not change at all as hellion openings are just as good and reapers only have very limited use in tvt and tvp anyways. terrible unit Pretty much summed it up right there. Yes, reapers are useful scouts and can be used to save a scan in early game. That can go for almost any unit though, even a barracks! They add nothing to the depth of gameplay because they're such 1-dimensional units. What they need is their d8 charges back from the alpha, or spider mines, or SOMETHING USEFUL AT ALL. Then you can nerf their early game power vs zerg (remove speed?) and suddenly they're a unit that has depth. That or remove them because they're stupid. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Tears.Of.The.Moon
Slovenia715 Posts
If it would be up to me i would just remove them from the game, terrans alredy have enough units, and their removal wouldn't efect them at all. They could also make the ghost take the reapers game function of baracks antilight counter and harass capable unit. With a good bonus vs light and cloak, and some stats modifications, the ghost could easily take that role. | ||
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MindRush
Romania916 Posts
some upgrade from the ghost academy or something, more life or maybe some mines this could come with Heart of the Swarm anyway, right now there is no reason to make reapers, expect maybe for scout, building snipes | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
People whinge about marauders and it's disgusting, but that's nothing new. If you cannot deal with marauders, fucking find out how because there are people who do, and Blizzard are totally fine with marauders as they are. ANYWAY, as to the OP 'do reapers belong in sc2!', well, this is obviously a silly question. Of course they do, because Blizzard said so. If you took out or replaced the reaper with something else, well, what would that something be? They cannot patch it in, I'd leave any reaper change to HotS EDIT- got my maths wrong a bit actually. Marine fire rate is .89, and is decreased by .29 when they stim, so they have a (roughly) ~60 fire rate when stimmed. It's almost twice as fast as a marauder though, and with upgrades will outshine the marauders output vs buildings. Marauders are good in drops because they are quick to drop. It takes ages to unload 8 marines and in a drop you gotta work fast! plus, as noted above, marauders are harder to kill with splash damage then marines. Some marines are good in TvP until colosi and Ht's hit the field and make them look sooooo stupid (marauders still feel the burn, just slower) | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
In fact, they solely exist for that (quite brilliant though) proxy rax reaper rush with severe SCV cutting. | ||
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Silu
Finland165 Posts
On September 23 2010 18:40 archon256 wrote: Not versus buildings. And other armored targets. But the main problem is buildings. If you know the opponent is going Marauder-heavy, you could opt not to build armored units, but there's no way to avoid making buildings, lol. You're wrong. Two Marines have more DPS against an armored target than a single Marauder has. Reapers would never be used in a drop, as the reason Marauders are used over Marines is their greater survivability (damage consolidation + base armor, mainly). Weird to see how many are ignorant of this simple fact. Marauders have (very) slightly better DPS than unupgraded Marines against targets that have base armor (so basically no effect at all against Protoss buildings as half of their hp is shields) , but as Marines are over two times better than Marauders against workers, this is effectively nullified for harass drops. | ||
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daewdasd
Germany64 Posts
So change the Marauder and keep the Reaper as it is right now. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
On September 23 2010 19:03 Silu wrote: You're wrong. Two Marines have more DPS against an armored target than a single Marauder has. Reapers would never be used in a drop, as the reason Marauders are used over Marines is their greater survivability (damage consolidation + base armor, mainly). Weird to see how many are ignorant of this simple fact. Marauders have (very) slightly better DPS than unupgraded Marines against targets that have base armor (so basically no effect at all against Protoss buildings as half of their hp is shields) , but as Marines are over two times better than Marauders against workers, this is effectively nullified for harass drops. You're forgetting the attack range which is at least as important than survivability and certainly more important than a small lack of damage. Basically, Marauders are EXACTLY ground-only Dragoons. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
On September 23 2010 18:51 Floophead_III wrote: Pretty much summed it up right there. Yes, reapers are useful scouts and can be used to save a scan in early game. That can go for almost any unit though, even a barracks! They add nothing to the depth of gameplay because they're such 1-dimensional units. What they need is their d8 charges back from the alpha, or spider mines, or SOMETHING USEFUL AT ALL. Then you can nerf their early game power vs zerg (remove speed?) and suddenly they're a unit that has depth. That or remove them because they're stupid. I would love to see Spider Mines on Reapers instead of D8 charge | ||
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The Touch
United Kingdom667 Posts
On September 23 2010 18:28 NormandyBoy wrote: People QQing about marauders makes me sad, : marines deal more DPS than them. And about reapers I think they might have a use that just has not been found yet, something like sniping HTs late game...It's too early to threw them away. What makes marauders great is their health. They can put out more damage before they die than 2 marines can (their equivilent in food) against armoured units and buildings. But I agree with you in that I think people seem to seriously understimate the strength of marines. As you say, they do more dps than marauders, and they can also can attack air units, take less time to build, and use no gas. They are fantastic units. | ||
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greycubed
United States615 Posts
On September 23 2010 18:48 Nilrem wrote: Well you have to understand that Terran players are placed in leagues with other players who have 3 times their APM so multi-front fighting is a bad strat for them. I am not sure if I am in total agreement with the Op. When ever I talk to someone about the reaper, it is always mentioned that reapers are great early game, but mid-late game they are rarely used. And I really question, why? They may not be able to do a ton of harass and actually kill much. But when I look at the unit, I see potential of harassing and just being a sheer annoyance. I mean, if the enemy is moving their forces, why not use them to periodically harass and annoy the player. Forcing him/her to either retreat forces, create defense, or simple just get distracted. | ||
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NormandyBoy
France200 Posts
On September 23 2010 19:12 BluzMan wrote: You're forgetting the attack range which is at least as important than survivability and certainly more important than a small lack of damage. Basically, Marauders are EXACTLY ground-only Dragoons. Yeah you're right the +1 range of marauders is a huge deal when it comes to sniping building (that's what people were QQing about)... And Terran need that range early game because marines can be kited infinitely by stalkers. If the marauders were not here bunkers or tanks would be mandatory. | ||
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klauz619
453 Posts
Also they share roles with the hellion, and the hellion has abysmal damage and can't stand up to anything without hit and run, but by the time you have blue flame you can't hit and run anymore and harassing with them is almost always going to end in failure. | ||
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Silu
Finland165 Posts
On September 23 2010 19:12 BluzMan wrote: You're forgetting the attack range which is at least as important than survivability and certainly more important than a small lack of damage. Basically, Marauders are EXACTLY ground-only Dragoons. I thought about whether or not to mention attack range. I didn't (you're right, probably should have), because in my opinion it's a far lesser boon than the survivability (in drops especially) due to the collision size difference. Marines can traverse tighter spots and can pack themselves around each other much more efficiently - on the other hand a single cannon can easily kill a Marine or three while it takes pretty sloppy micro for any Marauders to get killed by one. Of course none of this has anything to do with the subject matter, Reapers, which have equal range to Marines when attacking buildings and worse range when it comes to attacking units  | ||
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GreyFoxMe
Sweden36 Posts
I still think Reapers have a use mid to late game, it's just not been done much cause of all the other alternatives you got as Terran late game, but I think they still could be useful. | ||
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