Reapers are early game units by default. They are easy to get out, effective when the enemy has few defenses, and when you don't have to worry about defending your own base.
Mid-late game gives MUCH better units for harass. The only thing I can really think of is Worker snipes or building snipes, which in both cases Medivac + Marine or Marauders accomplish this to a greater extent, being better in almost every way. Investing your rax to building Reapers mid-late game is also too risky, since they are pretty awful in a real army.
Now, Reapers were nerfed because they could control Zerg too easily early game. It made Zerg have to play cat-n-mice until (or if) they get to mid game. They were also powerful against Protoss, but weren't used as much so not seen as a "problem".
It seems now that they aren't even worth the time anymore, Zerg now has the time they need to transition into mid game or even harass/contain Terran for a change.
Sooo here's the question...... Is there a line between too powerful and useless for Reapers? Or will it just bounce between one or the other? A unit that is ONLY good in one stage of the game is a unique property of the Reaper. So how powerful must it be in order to be useful? Will "powerful enough" always be "too powerful?"
I think as the meta game develops they should become useful beyond the early game. In theory, they should be pretty useful still with their great damage vs. light, especially combined with other units to help protect their fragility, weapon/armour upgrades, medivacs, etc.
if reapers were completely removed from the game, the balance of the matchups would be completely unchanged terran already has enough viable openings which are just as strong but playing against reapers is incredibly frustrating (and NOT fun) it really hurts the game for me from a zerg perspective reapers are bad when players dont know how to control them, but they're rage inducing when pros control them. i hate this unit. if they removed it from the game zvt would not change at all as hellion openings are just as good and reapers only have very limited use in tvt and tvp anyways. terrible unit
even on higher diamond level i saw some reaper builds yesterday.
those 5 seconds are NOT what would kill any reaper-strategy. at the moment you have a chance, that your spinecrawler maybe can finish or be close to get finishe, before they are there.
before 1.1 even if you 7 or 8scout reapers, it often can be too late. all depended only on the ability about how good they are controlled.
On September 23 2010 18:09 ondik wrote: would love to see marauder nerf against building so if terran wanted to drop mid/late game he would have to use reapers for it.
echo'ing this idea, would justice the fact that reapers are really good against buildings, but nowhere near stimmed marauder drops
I can see reapers being useful late game against P, since the default defense is to spam zeal/templar warpins. And, as pointed out, their DPS vs light is actually phenomenal.
On the other hand, the real cost is that it's eating up unit cycles. You are spending 1.5 barracks cycles on one food. So basically, instead of putting up 2 food in 30s, you are putting out 1 food in 45s.
How many scenarios will allow you to do this safely?
On September 23 2010 18:09 ondik wrote: would love to see marauder nerf against building so if terran wanted to drop mid/late game he would have to use reapers for it.
If marauder had been nerfed in 1.1,Zerg wouldn't worry about mass reapers either. Cause the fluent transition from reaper to marauder is the pain.
Their power origines from their incredible speed. The nitro pack should take longer to research. Factory as a requirement would be fine and would indirectly raise the cost without raising the 50/50 for research +60sec fac build time.
I think the best thing you can do with a few reapers early in the game is scout and harass if possible, then occupy a xel'naga tower or destroy rocks for gold expansion. Letting marines shoot at rocks sucks, reapers are quite efficient.
Having dropships (that heal you too) so early is bad enough- especially given blizzard's map pool.
But being able to ignore terrain and get a huge bonus vs light in t1 (one race only!) is just fundamentally bad.
Looks cool in promos though.
edit- woulda been cool to see their light bonus taken away instead of build time increased (like that even matters with 5 rax). That way you'd have a synergy between hellions taking care of light while reapers sneak in from the side to snipe buildings.
Yes, reapers belong in SC2... because Dustin Browden think they're keeeeeeewl.
But seriously, reapers lose all utility after the first 5 minutes. They should find a way to nerf them early game and give them purpose for late game. It was only included as a gimmick more than anything else and really, Dustin Browden thought they were cooool.
People QQing about marauders makes me sad, : marines deal more DPS than them.
And about reapers I think they might have a use that just has not been found yet, something like sniping HTs late game...It's too early to threw them away.
Yes, they belong in SC2 coz they're in the fucking game. Now figure out how they become useful even in the lategame instead. Since they do all this damage to structures, that must be the way to go... Base snipers? Who knows?
Their damage against buildings are still ridiculous. Maybe they can be used in late game for sniping hatch. You know just build 5 or 6 of them and they can go around taking down buildings for 30 sec. Maybe if you get more you can snipe off Hatch/Nex. Oh wait, Terrans already have marauder drop for that.
On September 23 2010 18:28 NormandyBoy wrote: People QQing about marauders makes me sad, : marines deal more DPS than them.
Not versus buildings. And other armored targets. But the main problem is buildings. If you know the opponent is going Marauder-heavy, you could opt not to build armored units, but there's no way to avoid making buildings, lol.
I'm protoss not zerg and therefore don't have problem with reapers - still I think they are misdesigned, maybe will be removed with an expansion terran has hellions for harassment, hellions are far more balanced, they don't need reapers; it's almost impossible to balance reapers - useful for harass = probably OP vs zerg, not useful for harass = completely crappy unit;
reapers would be balanced, if zerg had a choice between either going anti-harassment-style or economic-style; but since zerg is FORCED to go economic-style by game-design, there is no strategical element or meta-game at work
I am not sure if I am in total agreement with the Op. When ever I talk to someone about the reaper, it is always mentioned that reapers are great early game, but mid-late game they are rarely used. And I really question, why? They may not be able to do a ton of harass and actually kill much. But when I look at the unit, I see potential of harassing and just being a sheer annoyance. I mean, if the enemy is moving their forces, why not use them to periodically harass and annoy the player. Forcing him/her to either retreat forces, create defense, or simple just get distracted.
I understand that in the makeup of a force, you wont really have them in the mix. When you have a large army of mmm, you do not really see reapers. So in terms of unit composition, it wouldn't be in the main force. But alas, you can still being an annoyance. They are not very costly and the distraction can cost the enemy to have their units in a bad spot.
I hate being harassed early game by them, but eh, I think in the future they may end up being used in other ways.
On September 23 2010 18:12 billyX333 wrote: if reapers were completely removed from the game, the balance of the matchups would be completely unchanged terran already has enough viable openings which are just as strong but playing against reapers is incredibly frustrating (and NOT fun) it really hurts the game for me from a zerg perspective reapers are bad when players dont know how to control them, but they're rage inducing when pros control them. i hate this unit. if they removed it from the game zvt would not change at all as hellion openings are just as good and reapers only have very limited use in tvt and tvp anyways. terrible unit
Pretty much summed it up right there.
Yes, reapers are useful scouts and can be used to save a scan in early game. That can go for almost any unit though, even a barracks!
They add nothing to the depth of gameplay because they're such 1-dimensional units.
What they need is their d8 charges back from the alpha, or spider mines, or SOMETHING USEFUL AT ALL. Then you can nerf their early game power vs zerg (remove speed?) and suddenly they're a unit that has depth.
I think if they made reapers build faster but require an extra tech structure they would still be used after early game. Problem now is that you need far more raxs for reaper production than you do for anything else. So it's not really worthwhile to stop a whole round of production just for reapers.
I don't like the reapers at all. They are either to good early game or completely useless midgame and lategame, most othere units have uses through the entire game, except reapers. It would be very hard to balance this out.
If it would be up to me i would just remove them from the game, terrans alredy have enough units, and their removal wouldn't efect them at all. They could also make the ghost take the reapers game function of baracks antilight counter and harass capable unit. With a good bonus vs light and cloak, and some stats modifications, the ghost could easily take that role.
reapers could get a late-game upgrade to make them playable some upgrade from the ghost academy or something, more life or maybe some mines this could come with Heart of the Swarm anyway, right now there is no reason to make reapers, expect maybe for scout, building snipes
Actually, it doesn't do too badly vs armoured targets compared to a marauder. stimmed, a marauder shoots at a rate of 1 per 'second', where as a marine goes down to ~50-55 (can't remember exactly but I am entirely certain it is that quickly!). If you have 2 marines firing for 1 marauder, then that's (roughly) 4x6 shots for the marines for each marauder shot. Against non armoured targets the marines damage output is significantly higher then the marauders (as one would expect!) and against armoured targets it's only a little less (roughly 4 shots from 2 marines vs 1 shot from a marauder. 19 dmg (taking into account 1 armour) vs 24 -4 from the marines = 20. The marines shoot a little slower then that, and something like more armour or guardian shield cocks things up for the marines, but for equal mineral cost stimmed marines do fairly comparable damage to marauders).
People whinge about marauders and it's disgusting, but that's nothing new. If you cannot deal with marauders, fucking find out how because there are people who do, and Blizzard are totally fine with marauders as they are.
ANYWAY, as to the OP 'do reapers belong in sc2!', well, this is obviously a silly question. Of course they do, because Blizzard said so. If you took out or replaced the reaper with something else, well, what would that something be? They cannot patch it in, I'd leave any reaper change to HotS
EDIT- got my maths wrong a bit actually. Marine fire rate is .89, and is decreased by .29 when they stim, so they have a (roughly) ~60 fire rate when stimmed. It's almost twice as fast as a marauder though, and with upgrades will outshine the marauders output vs buildings.
Marauders are good in drops because they are quick to drop. It takes ages to unload 8 marines and in a drop you gotta work fast! plus, as noted above, marauders are harder to kill with splash damage then marines. Some marines are good in TvP until colosi and Ht's hit the field and make them look sooooo stupid (marauders still feel the burn, just slower)
On September 23 2010 18:28 NormandyBoy wrote: People QQing about marauders makes me sad, : marines deal more DPS than them.
Not versus buildings. And other armored targets. But the main problem is buildings. If you know the opponent is going Marauder-heavy, you could opt not to build armored units, but there's no way to avoid making buildings, lol.
You're wrong.
Two Marines have more DPS against an armored target than a single Marauder has. Reapers would never be used in a drop, as the reason Marauders are used over Marines is their greater survivability (damage consolidation + base armor, mainly). Weird to see how many are ignorant of this simple fact.
Marauders have (very) slightly better DPS than unupgraded Marines against targets that have base armor (so basically no effect at all against Protoss buildings as half of their hp is shields) , but as Marines are over two times better than Marauders against workers, this is effectively nullified for harass drops.
As a zerg player i have to say i dont mind the reaper (with some minor tweaks made), but it is really the marauder that makes so many other terran units useless. Marauders are just way to good against almost evers groundunit there is. As soon as you can mass Marauders you are at least fine against any ground unit combination zerg can throw at you, and if the zerg combination of units is just slightly wrong Marauders just roll over them. Changing the dmg of the Marauder to 5+15 would be well worth a try. Zerglings could then be effectivly be used against them and buildings would not go down as fast as they do roght now. So change the Marauder and keep the Reaper as it is right now.
On September 23 2010 18:28 NormandyBoy wrote: People QQing about marauders makes me sad, : marines deal more DPS than them.
Not versus buildings. And other armored targets. But the main problem is buildings. If you know the opponent is going Marauder-heavy, you could opt not to build armored units, but there's no way to avoid making buildings, lol.
You're wrong.
Two Marines have more DPS against an armored target than a single Marauder has. Reapers would never be used in a drop, as the reason Marauders are used over Marines is their greater survivability (damage consolidation + base armor, mainly). Weird to see how many are ignorant of this simple fact.
Marauders have (very) slightly better DPS than unupgraded Marines against targets that have base armor (so basically no effect at all against Protoss buildings as half of their hp is shields) , but as Marines are over two times better than Marauders against workers, this is effectively nullified for harass drops.
You're forgetting the attack range which is at least as important than survivability and certainly more important than a small lack of damage. Basically, Marauders are EXACTLY ground-only Dragoons.
putting reapers in the game was a worse move then removoing shared replays. A piece of crap unit, makes no sense, if it is too strong, then it's broken, if it's not too strong then why the hell would you make them as they become useless very soon.
Mass marauder getting you down? Fix it with ling/bling/muta! Seriously, when in high level play have you seen mass marauder fuck things up? I know thor/marauder was popular back in the day but hte magic box fixed that. I like using marauders to hurt roach heavy compositions and help out against banelings, but you cannot build too many rockit black guys or the Terran composition will suffer for it.
On September 23 2010 18:12 billyX333 wrote: if reapers were completely removed from the game, the balance of the matchups would be completely unchanged terran already has enough viable openings which are just as strong but playing against reapers is incredibly frustrating (and NOT fun) it really hurts the game for me from a zerg perspective reapers are bad when players dont know how to control them, but they're rage inducing when pros control them. i hate this unit. if they removed it from the game zvt would not change at all as hellion openings are just as good and reapers only have very limited use in tvt and tvp anyways. terrible unit
Pretty much summed it up right there.
Yes, reapers are useful scouts and can be used to save a scan in early game. That can go for almost any unit though, even a barracks!
They add nothing to the depth of gameplay because they're such 1-dimensional units.
What they need is their d8 charges back from the alpha, or spider mines, or SOMETHING USEFUL AT ALL. Then you can nerf their early game power vs zerg (remove speed?) and suddenly they're a unit that has depth.
That or remove them because they're stupid.
I would love to see Spider Mines on Reapers instead of D8 charge
On September 23 2010 18:28 NormandyBoy wrote: People QQing about marauders makes me sad, : marines deal more DPS than them.
And about reapers I think they might have a use that just has not been found yet, something like sniping HTs late game...It's too early to threw them away.
What makes marauders great is their health. They can put out more damage before they die than 2 marines can (their equivilent in food) against armoured units and buildings.
But I agree with you in that I think people seem to seriously understimate the strength of marines. As you say, they do more dps than marauders, and they can also can attack air units, take less time to build, and use no gas. They are fantastic units.
On September 23 2010 18:48 Nilrem wrote: I am not sure if I am in total agreement with the Op. When ever I talk to someone about the reaper, it is always mentioned that reapers are great early game, but mid-late game they are rarely used. And I really question, why? They may not be able to do a ton of harass and actually kill much. But when I look at the unit, I see potential of harassing and just being a sheer annoyance. I mean, if the enemy is moving their forces, why not use them to periodically harass and annoy the player. Forcing him/her to either retreat forces, create defense, or simple just get distracted.
Well you have to understand that Terran players are placed in leagues with other players who have 3 times their APM so multi-front fighting is a bad strat for them.
On September 23 2010 18:28 NormandyBoy wrote: People QQing about marauders makes me sad, : marines deal more DPS than them.
Not versus buildings. And other armored targets. But the main problem is buildings. If you know the opponent is going Marauder-heavy, you could opt not to build armored units, but there's no way to avoid making buildings, lol.
You're wrong.
Two Marines have more DPS against an armored target than a single Marauder has. Reapers would never be used in a drop, as the reason Marauders are used over Marines is their greater survivability (damage consolidation + base armor, mainly). Weird to see how many are ignorant of this simple fact.
Marauders have (very) slightly better DPS than unupgraded Marines against targets that have base armor (so basically no effect at all against Protoss buildings as half of their hp is shields) , but as Marines are over two times better than Marauders against workers, this is effectively nullified for harass drops.
You're forgetting the attack range which is at least as important than survivability and certainly more important than a small lack of damage. Basically, Marauders are EXACTLY ground-only Dragoons.
Yeah you're right the +1 range of marauders is a huge deal when it comes to sniping building (that's what people were QQing about)... And Terran need that range early game because marines can be kited infinitely by stalkers. If the marauders were not here bunkers or tanks would be mandatory.
Problem with reapers is that they are almost completely useless after very early game(just before midgame if vs zerg).
Also they share roles with the hellion, and the hellion has abysmal damage and can't stand up to anything without hit and run, but by the time you have blue flame you can't hit and run anymore and harassing with them is almost always going to end in failure.
On September 23 2010 18:28 NormandyBoy wrote: People QQing about marauders makes me sad, : marines deal more DPS than them.
Not versus buildings. And other armored targets. But the main problem is buildings. If you know the opponent is going Marauder-heavy, you could opt not to build armored units, but there's no way to avoid making buildings, lol.
You're wrong.
Two Marines have more DPS against an armored target than a single Marauder has. Reapers would never be used in a drop, as the reason Marauders are used over Marines is their greater survivability (damage consolidation + base armor, mainly). Weird to see how many are ignorant of this simple fact.
Marauders have (very) slightly better DPS than unupgraded Marines against targets that have base armor (so basically no effect at all against Protoss buildings as half of their hp is shields) , but as Marines are over two times better than Marauders against workers, this is effectively nullified for harass drops.
You're forgetting the attack range which is at least as important than survivability and certainly more important than a small lack of damage. Basically, Marauders are EXACTLY ground-only Dragoons.
I thought about whether or not to mention attack range. I didn't (you're right, probably should have), because in my opinion it's a far lesser boon than the survivability (in drops especially) due to the collision size difference. Marines can traverse tighter spots and can pack themselves around each other much more efficiently - on the other hand a single cannon can easily kill a Marine or three while it takes pretty sloppy micro for any Marauders to get killed by one.
Of course none of this has anything to do with the subject matter, Reapers, which have equal range to Marines when attacking buildings and worse range when it comes to attacking units
Their damage per shot to buildings is the same as Thors. I've even made Reaper drops in the mid game, it's risky but focus firing down a Nexus goes so quick!
I still think Reapers have a use mid to late game, it's just not been done much cause of all the other alternatives you got as Terran late game, but I think they still could be useful.
I agree with the general sentiment that the reaper is kind of an awkward unit. Its strength is in its mobility (speed and cliff jumping), but when the mid/late game comes, the effectiveness of the reaper drops significantly. Issues being that you cannot keep it with your army as it cuts down on its mobility and a marine is a cheaper alternate combat unit. And it can't really scout as well because the opposing army is bigger and covers more space.
However, when I do think the reaper will become a more important unit is when larger maps come out. I think most people can agree that the current SC2 ladder maps are, relatively speaking, very small when compared to the MSL/OSL broodwar maps.
I think that when players get 4/5 bases on a huge map, and their army cannot effective move from one base to another in 5 seconds, the reaper again becomes a pretty cheap harassment/scouting unit in the late-game.
However in the current meta-game environment, I do think that reapers detract from the game. It serves a single role in the very early game and I do not think that is a good unit in the current SC2 environment.
Nobody playing at a high level in 1v1 are worried about reapers anymore or using them often for worker harass, even before this the very recent nerf for its building damage and build time. Get with the times and leave speedlings/roaches/stalker behind by your worker line?
Well, I think we all are sort of getting the problem of the reaper so how could we fix the units without removing or remaking him too much?
My main issue with the unit, is that it takes long time making and requiring a tech lab. So it prevents me from making a the size that I really would like in a relativtly short period of time. So being able to make the reaper out of reactors could be a way. One way could be just buffing them with more hp and damage or attackspeed.
I still often come across 5 rax reaper in TvZ as I play Zerg. Reaper are incredible strong as it forces me to go roaches with speed. A good player doesnt lose its reapers and will be very carefull, so after 5 minutes, he will still have a group of reapers accompanied by maurauders. The reapers will be in the middle of the group so that zerglings/roaches cannot attack the reapers directly. Reapers/Maurauders are a direct counter to what any Zerg player at that moment has: zerglings,roaches,spinecrawlers. This is what makes 5 rax reaper incredible imbalanced and not fun to play against.
Reapers still have use after 5 minutes since they are incredible strong but very very fragile. Altough you dont see many players use them after 5 minutes. 5rr transitions into maurauder at that time.
On September 23 2010 18:13 loadme wrote: even on higher diamond level i saw some reaper builds yesterday.
those 5 seconds are NOT what would kill any reaper-strategy. at the moment you have a chance, that your spinecrawler maybe can finish or be close to get finishe, before they are there.
before 1.1 even if you 7 or 8scout reapers, it often can be too late. all depended only on the ability about how good they are controlled.
You think?..
Per Barracks.. 1 reaper, -5, 2 reapers -10.. It really keeps adding up and makes it difficult.
Yea 5 rax reapers are still very hard to deal with, I mean come on, 10 reapers from 5 rax come 10 seconds later compared to patch 1.0, how is this so different ? It is still hard, frustrating, requires perfect micro, building placement, and if you mismicro you lose a lot of drones, a queen, and early game that is just crippling. IMO only a range or damage or speed nerf for the reapers would be a viable solution as a balancing patch, but I would just remove them from the game, they're ridiculous.
On September 23 2010 18:28 NormandyBoy wrote: People QQing about marauders makes me sad, : marines deal more DPS than them.
You've obviously never had you natural hatch sniped by single medivac marauder drop during a battle. Most infuriating and overpowered shit ever.
People QQ about marauders more because: 1. They are extremely overpowered vs buildings, 2. they can kite ground units with absolutely no micro skill due to concussive shell opness, and 3. because they make zergs tank unit not able to tank anything.
On September 23 2010 20:13 Qikz wrote: I think Repears have an excellent place, it's just people haven't tried or worked out how to include them in later game armies yet.
It's most likely because they are fragile, take awhile to build and can't stim. If they had an ability like D8 charges in beta or lockdown i'd use them though.
On September 23 2010 18:13 loadme wrote: even on higher diamond level i saw some reaper builds yesterday.
those 5 seconds are NOT what would kill any reaper-strategy. at the moment you have a chance, that your spinecrawler maybe can finish or be close to get finishe, before they are there.
before 1.1 even if you 7 or 8scout reapers, it often can be too late. all depended only on the ability about how good they are controlled.
When you add a full minute to a 5ax reaper strat, thats alot, the initital 5 sec to get out teh first reaper isnt the point
On September 23 2010 18:13 loadme wrote: even on higher diamond level i saw some reaper builds yesterday.
those 5 seconds are NOT what would kill any reaper-strategy. at the moment you have a chance, that your spinecrawler maybe can finish or be close to get finishe, before they are there.
before 1.1 even if you 7 or 8scout reapers, it often can be too late. all depended only on the ability about how good they are controlled.
When you add a full minute to a 5ax reaper strat, thats alot, the initital 5 sec to get out teh first reaper isnt the point
What do you mean a full minute? 5 rax are producing parallel, its like 20 secs
I haven't really been reaper rushed that much as a protoss player, but I can certainly voice the frustration they cause, especially since it goes faster for terran player to get a decent amount of reapers compared to a protoss getting stalkers. First time it happened was on Kulas Ravine and there was nothing I could do, because when I finally understood there was a proxy barracks going on because I finally found the terran base, it was too late. 4 reapers kill off a stalker, and they kill off a sentry way too fast for it to be funny. Meh, it's just damn frustrating. Only terran really got any good way to counter a reaper rush since marines are ranged.
IMO they are the perfect sc2 unit. Quick, aggressive and absolutely OP vs a player who can't multitask properly. (I play random so yes I have gotten my fair share of buttkicking from them)
On September 23 2010 21:06 Qw4z1 wrote: IMO they are the perfect sc2 unit. Quick, aggressive and absolutely OP vs a player who can't multitask properly. (I play random so yes I have gotten my fair share of buttkicking from them)
Yeah OP vs players like idra. lul.
They were OP plain and simple, and they are boring to see in every tvz. simple strat to execute, extreme sustained early pressure, no economy loss, heavy damage to opponent. sounds fair lol. blizz knows they are OP vs zerg and patched it. I havent played new patch yet so i dont know how it was affected yet.
Reapers aren't and weren't too strong, they're just broken. If they actually required any tech then they could be made more useful in mid and late game. Their original unit design is far too strong for T1, and instead of changing the design they just nerfed it to the point where it was useless past T1. So we're left with a gimped unit that doesn't really belong.
i bet it will be like with roaches after nerfing then to take 2 supply initially people werent making them at all but over time they turned out to be still useful
On September 23 2010 21:21 psion wrote: Reapers aren't and weren't too strong, they're just broken. If they actually required any tech then they could be made more useful in mid and late game. Their original unit design is far too strong for T1, and instead of changing the design they just nerfed it to the point where it was useless past T1. So we're left with a gimped unit that doesn't really belong.
Like roaches. I assume even more nerfs will be coming
Some people are turning this into Marauder is OP topic
Regarding that it is boring to see every game 5rax reaper or nearly every game... Hmm remeber how things are in BW TvP fast factory or crazy marine rush ZvZ zerling/muta PvZ fast forge expand Nearly every game had the same opening with small diferences and sometimes we had seen crazy openings. Nobody complain about it...
Sentences that it is frustrating to play against it are silly. (another BW storry) You think thats it was funny to play as zerg against corsairs.... You think it was funny to play as terran against stop lurkers....
If a player is doing something that is hard to handle it is always frustrating to play against it but that doesnt mean it shouldnt be included in the game.
Reapers are interesting unit and i hope that we will see more reapers in late game like in qxc game posted above. People will figure out how to use reapers in late game or completly abandon reapers and than there will be some intervention from bliz.
I personally believe that reapers should be completely changed from what they are now. I like the idea of them, their ability to jump up & down cliffs, but especially with the recent patch, they seem to be fairly useless in most games, especially as the game progresses and gets into the later stages.
The only time I have seen a good use of reapers in the middle of a game that wasn't used for harassment was a single reaper on DQ going and destroying the rocks at the natural expansions for bases neither I nor my opponent started at, allowing my opponent to very sneakily take extra expansions. ...I should have been scouting more for that, but that is the best use of them aside from early harassment that I have seen.
Perhaps they could sorta fill the role of the vulture? Drop mines down maybe? (This is actually what I thought they were supposed to do when I skimmed a tooltip for one of their abilities in the campaign) ...No I did not play beta, I never got an invite until the last week of beta, and said screw it, I'll just wait til the game comes out.
Anyways... I think that could be the ideal solution for reapers, make them the new vulture, throw out some mines (...weaker mines than the vulture had though, considering the speed, damage done by the reaper, and its ability to jump up & down cliffs)
On September 23 2010 21:21 psion wrote: Reapers aren't and weren't too strong, they're just broken. If they actually required any tech then they could be made more useful in mid and late game. Their original unit design is far too strong for T1, and instead of changing the design they just nerfed it to the point where it was useless past T1. So we're left with a gimped unit that doesn't really belong.
Like roaches. I assume even more nerfs will be coming
No, they changed the unit design of the roach and they made it require tech to balance the gimmick. They just overcompensated, and now apparently they're too afraid to make any more balance changes. The gimmick of the reaper is very low tech and very powerful in the early game, so instead of tweaking the gimmick and requiring more tech, they just made the unit extremely weak.
I think we will see more reapers incorporated into main armies. If you look at the DPS spreadsheet, reapers have higher dps on light units than stimmed marines or marauders. In fact, they are comparable in DPS to helions hitting THREE light units per shot and only beaten by upgraded helions hitting 3 units. Reapers do more DPS on light than one upgraded helion which doesn't get any splash.
It would be GREAT to incorporate fast moving, super high damage reapers against a Zerg midgame army of ling/baneling. It's just a question of microing them well. As people get better, they'll start doing this more.
Reapers should get stimpack. I wonder what'd happen then? Those mines would help as well. I thought 5 seconds wouldn't matter but after trying Reapers, I was shocked by how long they took. I don't think they're worth it against anything now.
On September 23 2010 22:06 theSAiNT wrote: I think we will see more reapers incorporated into main armies. If you look at the DPS spreadsheet, reapers have higher dps on light units than stimmed marines or marauders. In fact, they are comparable in DPS to helions hitting THREE light units per shot and only beaten by upgraded helions hitting 3 units. Reapers do more DPS on light than one upgraded helion which doesn't get any splash.
It would be GREAT to incorporate fast moving, super high damage reapers against a Zerg midgame army of ling/baneling. It's just a question of microing them well. As people get better, they'll start doing this more.
Reapers are a stupidly good unit all game long.
In theory sure, but they take stupidly long to build and cost too much gas.
Reapers are needed to make Bio work. Terrans need a early harrassment option that transitions into bio or bio would be significantly weakened. Making them lategamevalid I´d say is an issue for the expansions. Stimpacks would simply extragate them, they would be even faster, damaging and fragile. I´d rather try the singleplayer range upgrade, which would help them not autolose instantly against anything that can touch them normally.
On September 23 2010 21:21 psion wrote: Reapers aren't and weren't too strong, they're just broken. If they actually required any tech then they could be made more useful in mid and late game. Their original unit design is far too strong for T1, and instead of changing the design they just nerfed it to the point where it was useless past T1. So we're left with a gimped unit that doesn't really belong.
Like roaches. I assume even more nerfs will be coming
On September 23 2010 22:14 Shikyo wrote: Reapers should get stimpack. I wonder what'd happen then? Those mines would help as well. I thought 5 seconds wouldn't matter but after trying Reapers, I was shocked by how long they took. I don't think they're worth it against anything now.
On September 23 2010 22:06 theSAiNT wrote: I think we will see more reapers incorporated into main armies. If you look at the DPS spreadsheet, reapers have higher dps on light units than stimmed marines or marauders. In fact, they are comparable in DPS to helions hitting THREE light units per shot and only beaten by upgraded helions hitting 3 units. Reapers do more DPS on light than one upgraded helion which doesn't get any splash.
It would be GREAT to incorporate fast moving, super high damage reapers against a Zerg midgame army of ling/baneling. It's just a question of microing them well. As people get better, they'll start doing this more.
Reapers are a stupidly good unit all game long.
In theory sure, but they take stupidly long to build and cost too much gas.
We kind of saw it already. In 5 racks reapers, you're not meant to suicide all your reapers into speedlings/roaches. You're meant to harrass with them while building up a marauder force. Pushing out with marauders reinforced with your original reapers makes a super deadly force.
Not every unit has to be used in competitive games. BW queens, scouts, dark archons, devours valkirie and maybe another two units have really limited options in competitive game scene. I think that is good actually. It brings more depth to the sc lore and history. You have to remember that it is a game before an e-sport.
Reapers are stupid. They have no place in starcraft. They are a highly mobile building and worker wrecking unit that completely destroys static defense and small numbers of any kind of unit. They also only cost 1 supply which is mind boggling.
The first time they get used in a tournament finals in late game TvP to one shot every pylon the protoss has and then 8 shot their nexus for the price of 600 minerals/600 gas/12 supply will be when everyone starts to think this way.
On September 23 2010 22:14 Shikyo wrote: Reapers should get stimpack. I wonder what'd happen then? Those mines would help as well. I thought 5 seconds wouldn't matter but after trying Reapers, I was shocked by how long they took. I don't think they're worth it against anything now.
On September 23 2010 22:06 theSAiNT wrote: I think we will see more reapers incorporated into main armies. If you look at the DPS spreadsheet, reapers have higher dps on light units than stimmed marines or marauders. In fact, they are comparable in DPS to helions hitting THREE light units per shot and only beaten by upgraded helions hitting 3 units. Reapers do more DPS on light than one upgraded helion which doesn't get any splash.
It would be GREAT to incorporate fast moving, super high damage reapers against a Zerg midgame army of ling/baneling. It's just a question of microing them well. As people get better, they'll start doing this more.
Reapers are a stupidly good unit all game long.
In theory sure, but they take stupidly long to build and cost too much gas.
We kind of saw it already. In 5 racks reapers, you're not meant to suicide all your reapers into speedlings/roaches. You're meant to harrass with them while building up a marauder force. Pushing out with marauders reinforced with your original reapers makes a super deadly force.
Yeah that's true, but that's because you crippled them already with the reapers. The reapers don't really do much in that attack tbh, most of the time they'll have almost purely roaches. My 10 Marauders are what make me win in those games, not the Reapers. I think that they're worthless in an actual mid-lategame army. The reapers in the push are just leftovers
Reapers belong in SC2. Just wrong race has them. Believe me,some kind of changed Reaper in Zerg's arsenal would be pretty good idea,bypassing wall-off on early stages of the game is the thing every Zerg dreams about
On September 23 2010 22:43 JustPlay wrote: Reapers are stupid. They have no place in starcraft. They are a highly mobile building and worker wrecking unit that completely destroys static defense and small numbers of any kind of unit. They also only cost 1 supply which is mind boggling.
The first time they get used in a tournament finals in late game TvP to one shot every pylon the protoss has and then 8 shot their nexus for the price of 600 minerals/600 gas/12 supply will be when everyone starts to think this way.
You know, something tells me that if a nobody thought of this, the many expert terrans have already tried it and dismissed it.
On September 23 2010 22:44 Fa1nT wrote: They belong in campaign only.
Reapers ONLY use is to piss off Zerg players in the first few minutes, then they are never used again.
I guess you could use vs protoss for scouting, but like terran needs MORE scouting gimmicks.
I may not be the highest ranking but recently I've been trying to use reapers more midgame.
Against zerg, open reapers, transition to marine/marauder, then I scout hes going Hydralisks (I don't know why) so I start making more marines, hellions with blueflame, and what else could I make?
Reapers. Hydras are so slow that you can easily hit 2 or 3 expos and return, they are also incredibly strong damage wise vs. Light. Reapers can outrun them on Creep (With the upgrade, which you'd get anyways if you're going reaper), its actually a pretty decent complement, since you already invested in the Nitropacks. It is incredibly good especially against a far away expo, or even his main once he's mined it out (Snipe some buildings, like spawning pools)
You just need about 6, same as if you were gonna be rushing reapers. Obviously if you're under extreme pressure or he goes Roach or something you'll have to adjust.
Reapers would be fine if they removed the increased damage to buildings. There is no reason why terran needs 2 units that absolutely rape buildings at tier 1.5, add in the cliff jumping and it's too much.
At least this would give the option to allow zerg and protoss to get static D to deal with them, as it is right now they blow up sunkens and cannons far too quickly. If i'm investing money in static D, I don't want a group of units that mobile to be able to blow it up in 2 seconds.
On September 23 2010 22:43 JustPlay wrote: Reapers are stupid. They have no place in starcraft. They are a highly mobile building and worker wrecking unit that completely destroys static defense and small numbers of any kind of unit. They also only cost 1 supply which is mind boggling.
The first time they get used in a tournament finals in late game TvP to one shot every pylon the protoss has and then 8 shot their nexus for the price of 600 minerals/600 gas/12 supply will be when everyone starts to think this way.
You know, something tells me that if a nobody thought of this, the many expert terrans have already tried it and dismissed it.
Yeah they have, and since Marauders with stim have higher DPS vs buildings and much lower buildtime, well yeah... Reapers really have no place outside the earlygame
On September 23 2010 22:44 Kurumi wrote: Reapers belong in SC2. Just wrong race has them. Believe me,some kind of changed Reaper in Zerg's arsenal would be pretty good idea,bypassing wall-off on early stages of the game is the thing every Zerg dreams about
Oh god I never thought about this. You are absolutely right. As the only race that is denied a wall-off, of course Zerg should have gotten the early game cliff-jumper. Oh god my day is ruined.
On September 23 2010 22:44 Kurumi wrote: Reapers belong in SC2. Just wrong race has them. Believe me,some kind of changed Reaper in Zerg's arsenal would be pretty good idea,bypassing wall-off on early stages of the game is the thing every Zerg dreams about
Oh god I never thought about this. You are absolutely right. As the only race that is denied a wall-off, of course Zerg should have gotten the early game cliff-jumper. Oh god my day is ruined.
Yea, that really was not well thought out at all by Browder & Co. I think the gameplay would be a lot more interesting if it was designed with this kind of logic. Too bad, it's a bloody shame.
On the other hand, given the mess we've inherited from them, I think they should take a page out of their zerg-nerf playbook and make reapers 2 supply. This would still make them viable early game, but make them a little more tedious to mass on 5 rax by essentially adding 25minerals worth of supply depot to each reaper.
On September 23 2010 22:14 Shikyo wrote: Reapers should get stimpack. I wonder what'd happen then? Those mines would help as well. I thought 5 seconds wouldn't matter but after trying Reapers, I was shocked by how long they took. I don't think they're worth it against anything now.
On September 23 2010 22:06 theSAiNT wrote: I think we will see more reapers incorporated into main armies. If you look at the DPS spreadsheet, reapers have higher dps on light units than stimmed marines or marauders. In fact, they are comparable in DPS to helions hitting THREE light units per shot and only beaten by upgraded helions hitting 3 units. Reapers do more DPS on light than one upgraded helion which doesn't get any splash.
It would be GREAT to incorporate fast moving, super high damage reapers against a Zerg midgame army of ling/baneling. It's just a question of microing them well. As people get better, they'll start doing this more.
Reapers are a stupidly good unit all game long.
In theory sure, but they take stupidly long to build and cost too much gas.
We kind of saw it already. In 5 racks reapers, you're not meant to suicide all your reapers into speedlings/roaches. You're meant to harrass with them while building up a marauder force. Pushing out with marauders reinforced with your original reapers makes a super deadly force.
Yeah that's true, but that's because you crippled them already with the reapers. The reapers don't really do much in that attack tbh, most of the time they'll have almost purely roaches. My 10 Marauders are what make me win in those games, not the Reapers. I think that they're worthless in an actual mid-lategame army. The reapers in the push are just leftovers
As a Z player, I assure you the reapers are not useless in that army. I typically make 5 or so roaches to shut down the harrass and then start making lings when I scout an incoming marauder push because roaches are useless against them. Microed reapers behind the marauder ball make the difference between me crushing the push or being crushed.
On September 23 2010 22:51 Hawk wrote: You know, something tells me that if a nobody thought of this, the many expert terrans have already tried it and dismissed it.
Apparently qxc did it in the recent iccup tournament.
On marauders, marauders cost more and aren't as mobile. They are made instead because they are a better unit in your army. Reapers do sort of become obsolete once they have blink stalkers.
I typically don't like making suggestions around changing the game (IMO, it is solid already - with some minor balance yet to be tweaked).
However, IF they were set on changing the reaper... it seems like it could be strengthened and then just up the cost and/or build time appropriately. Right now it is a cheap scout (since nerf), but could be made into a stronger harass unit as long as the price follows suite (so it doesn't crush Zerg early game). IMO, you really can't make it any more useful without first upping its cost/time.
I suggested a while ago, that Reapers have to be BETTER against buildings, but not without an midgame upgrade. Those trowable D8 charges would be a great addition and make them viable later on while they wouldnt be so hard in early (without that d8)
Random thought: What if we got rid of Nitro Packs but let Reapers use Stim Packs (at, say, 15 HP cost)? It would make the reapers strong enough to be in the main terran army, but unable to harass en-mass early on since their HP is throttled if they needed to stim. Probably needs some extra tweaks to be balanced but I think it would take us in the right direction.
EPT
