EPTWhy the Terran problems are not an imbalance issue - Page 14
| Forum Index > Closed |
|
HalfAmazing
Netherlands402 Posts
| ||
|
nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On September 10 2010 23:03 babolatt wrote: How many probes can a protoss afford to send due to chronoboost? Mules are free and scv-s are actually useful in combat yet you compare them to probes?NICE. And yes every single chrono boost goes to probes.It's not like you need to chrono all your units from robo/stargate(or your first gateway units) or your upgrades lol silly protoss players. | ||
|
Adila
United States874 Posts
On September 10 2010 23:03 babolatt wrote: How many probes can a protoss afford to send due to chronoboost? Who comes out ahead if both players lose an equal amount of probes/scvs? | ||
|
Cranberries
Wales567 Posts
Both Z/P are unable to send probes with their army because Drones/Probes are significantly weaker than SCVs. All early game units, towards workers, do 5-10 damage and the extra 5 health on the SCV means that a unit requires an extra hit to kill it off (5 Stalker hits compared to 4). This makes a massive difference. Also, Mules renegerate loss of SCVs far faster than Drones/Probes do with massive macro through larva spit/chrono boost. It's stupid to argue otherwise. | ||
|
trevf
United States237 Posts
On September 10 2010 22:20 eu.exodus wrote: lol i hear that! But then again. Check any sc2 forum and see the same thing. Im actually getting annoyed with reading the same bs on every blog. I hear ya man, it seems like every zerg player just gets on the ladder for an hour. Loses a game against Terran and decides to spend the next hour making a whine post instead of trying to get better at the match up. The OP is seriously misguided in his statement that every Terran player must build medivacs. Sorry Raelcun, but thats a stupid assertion. Isn't it obvious that medivacs are NOT the terran equivalent of overlords? Wouldn't the Terran equivalent of overlords be supply depots given that they are both 100 min cost, supply 8 and have their own unique features (scouting ability of overlord and walling ability of depots)? Upgrading to lair spend 300/300 and to get 8 or 10 speed increased + dropping capable overlords is somehow FAR WORSE than rax --> fax --> starport --> 300/300 for 3 medivacs. Come on man. | ||
|
alkampfer
116 Posts
I'm actually losing faith in blizzard... these issues should be really obvious but they seems like... "I do not care if a protoss player needs to be BISU to beat a random terran that abuse his race mechanic" The problem is that Terran has so many openings, very difficult to spot what opening is taking... and when you have obs out if he decided to do an ALL in push it's already too late to counter. And if you extracautious to evade a possible all in push, the terran could have gone for the eco advantage and you'll be behind... that's because he can build the command behind his wall. | ||
|
fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On September 10 2010 22:45 nailertn wrote: 1. Are you truly claiming that tech switch is easier for terran than for zerg or that it is harder to tell what's coming? Apparently floating magically turns your barracks into factories and eggs have printed on top what's going to pop from them. 2. Are you truly claiming that sensor towers are a better tool for map awareness than creep / mobile floating farms? Or that you can't "counter" them? Here is a thought, kill them. They aren't exactly invisible and cost more than an initial 25 energy to reproduce. 3. I am not even sure why I am replying but how is drop play harder in any way for the other races? You make it sound like it comes for free because medivacs are already in the terran game plan whereas overlords / lair / warp tech are some unorthodox route. It is not an additional perk, it is part of the reason medivacs are there to begin with. If you want drop play include it in your game plan and pay its price just like everybody else does. 4. Again you make it sound like SCVs come for free or that auto repair takes less APM than shield regen. Regardless of race if two equal sized armies clash but one of the players brings all his workes to the battle in addition guess who is going to win? This is not a terran specific thing. What IS though is the choice to repair instead of acting as cannon fodder but then of course you forgo the added DPS. I will admit that attack priority is a problem, but that is about it. I am not in any way implying terran has it the hardest, I am saying for every random fact you pulled there are similar mechanics for the other races that make it equal in the end. Funny how terran is imbalanced here and protoss is imbalanced on the asian servers. If anything this signals that Blizzard needs to have a look at zerg. Even out the curve so they are stronger early game and you have a pretty balanced game. 1 it is much harder to tell what is coming. tech switches for zerg are easier (given enough resources) but you can allways tell what is coming since there is a building somewhere indicating which units the zerg can produce. just take 5 rax reaper effectiveness as an example which is only good because of the easy tech switch to marauders if roaches are coming (else you would be dead here). 2 a sensor tower is normally located in a fortified position with towers and/or tanks. it will cover all possible entrances to the base nonetheless. good players will also kill the creep tumors before they can spread out too far and they will mostly not face any resistance because the zerg would have to move of creep. 3 drop play is harder for zergs because they have to INVEST into drops (200/200 at least if you don't count overlord speed) whereas terrans WILL get medivacs and can CHOOSE to drop. it is OPTIONAL since your medivacs are not wasted minerals/gas and will help you in any fight with bio. also there is the threat of being dropped whenever medivacs are present and combined with the power of marauders against buildings those drops are scary. it does not eliminate drop play when there is a cost involved... dunno what terrans are thinking. maybe they think every upgrade for them should be free as if the upgrade costs of terrans (mostly 50/50 some 100/100) are not already a choke compared to the essential upgrades of protoss/zerg which cost 150/150 or even 200/200. 4 compairing auto repair with shield regen is ridiculous. you know shields do not regenerate in combat??? at least you should... so to answer your question, yes if a protoss wanted to save units via shield regenerate he would have to micro them back one by one. this is actually pretty micro intensive. and try bringing workers against a meching terran and see how much of an impact they will have against hellions or tanks. probably somewhere around zero. tldr; this post is to explain to all the terrans that there view is heavily biased. i'm not calling for terran nerfs but anyone should note that there are pretty big and obvious design flaws when you compare the races. and these have nothing to do with making races equal or other bullshit arguments against this. it's straight up facts. just count the number of upgrades and look what they do across all races and you will see terran come out on top by far... best solution would be to add some viable upgrades to protoss and zerg so every race has the options terrans have now and is fun to play. but that's just my opinion. | ||
|
alkampfer
116 Posts
http://tv.esl.eu/de/vod/22393 | ||
|
HalfAmazing
Netherlands402 Posts
On September 10 2010 23:07 Cranberries wrote: Repair during combat should be significantly less effective than repair out of combat. Protoss shields don't regenerate during combat, likewise Zerg health regeneration is slower in combat compared to health regeneration out of combat. Both Z/P are unable to send probes with their army because Drones/Probes are significantly weaker than SCVs. All early game units, towards workers, do 5-10 damage and the extra 5 health on the SCV means that a unit requires an extra hit to kill it off (5 Stalker hits compared to 4). This makes a massive difference. Also, Mules renegerate loss of SCVs far faster than Drones/Probes do with massive macro through larva spit/chrono boost. It's stupid to argue otherwise. This guy is a confirmed map hacker -- please ignore (or ban, which would be even better). | ||
|
babolatt
Canada312 Posts
On September 10 2010 23:18 fleeze wrote: it's straight up facts. I don't think you know what facts means. | ||
|
fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On September 10 2010 23:22 babolatt wrote: I don't think you know what facts means. you should at least read the post... reading comprehension makes you fail hard. just count the number of upgrades and look what they do across all races and you will see terran come out on top by far you did that? | ||
|
trevf
United States237 Posts
On September 10 2010 23:07 Cranberries wrote: Repair during combat should be significantly less effective than repair out of combat. Protoss shields don't regenerate during combat, likewise Zerg health regeneration is slower in combat compared to health regeneration out of combat. Both Z/P are unable to send probes with their army because Drones/Probes are significantly weaker than SCVs. All early game units, towards workers, do 5-10 damage and the extra 5 health on the SCV means that a unit requires an extra hit to kill it off (5 Stalker hits compared to 4). This makes a massive difference. Also, Mules renegerate loss of SCVs far faster than Drones/Probes do with massive macro through larva spit/chrono boost. It's stupid to argue otherwise. You're completely disregarding the fact that toss shields and zerg health both regen on their own, without any apm investment or any cost (repairing Terran units costs both gas, minerals, and mining time. To your second point, that drones / probes are significantly weaker than scv's. I would very well argue that probes are a much more desirable unit for both harass and base construction than the SCV. Due to the fact that sheilds regen quickly probes can easily exchange 3 or 4 hits with an scv and then run for 10 - 15 seconds then do it again and the scv will have to retreat to the min line to be repaired whiel the probe is now free to harass scv's taht may be building rax or depots. The terran can counter the probes fast regen shields by bringing two scv's and repairing the one being attacked. This is countered by simply running the probe and enjoying an economic advantage as Terran pulls too many workers off his line to keep up w/ chrono boosted probes. | ||
|
trevf
United States237 Posts
| ||
|
vrok
Sweden2541 Posts
On September 10 2010 22:02 trevf wrote: So you want to eliminate timing drops? So you think its fine that Zerg can simply spread creep and get FULL vision of everything on creep, AND post overlords all over the map but Terran having minimap blips after building a gas costly building is IMBA? kk... The sad thing is most people will probably agree with the post because it has pictures and italics and cries for Terran nerfs. Hello Mr. I Only Play Terran. You may not know this but creep tumors and overlords giving map vision can be countered. Creep tumors take a long time to spread across the entire map (not to mention that it requires additional actions and multitasking) and with overlords you're sacrificing your supply for information. Sensor towers sitting inside a terrans base surrounded by his army/base defenses can not be countered and require absolutely nothing from the terran skill wise besides not being oblivious to the minimap. It also happens that researching OL speed and drop pretty much equals the cost of 3 sensor towers. Enough to essentially drop proof terran 3 base. Way more than that on smaller maps. | ||
|
Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On September 10 2010 22:58 babolatt wrote: So judging by this thread, every Terran unit is OP? can you point a finger on a terran unit that can not in any way or form be called op when compared to anything the other races have as an "equalent" ?? While overpowered is the wrong word to use, Overtuned and better designed is a better analogy. I hear ya man, it seems like every zerg player just gets on the ladder for an hour. Loses a game against Terran and decides to spend the next hour making a whine post instead of trying to get better at the match up. riiight.Isn't it obvious that medivacs are NOT the terran equivalent of overlords? They both are capable of being dropships as a secondary purpose. THe zerg does not make overlords to drop, he makes them to get supplies. The terran makes medivacs to heal their army, drop is a secondary purpose for a great unit capable of tanking hits from ranged units because of its high priority. And it should thusly have a similar 200/200 upgrade for drop tech. | ||
|
fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On September 10 2010 23:31 trevf wrote: Also, how is this not an IMBA post? please retitle the thread so it says: Another zerg player's suggestions for nerfs to Terran. it is a post directed at general design flaws in the game that should be fixed. with pretty well argumented points. if i look at your last posts on the other hand... | ||
|
Fwmeh
1286 Posts
On September 10 2010 22:45 nailertn wrote: and protoss is imbalanced on the asian servers. Pretty funny joke. | ||
|
eu.exodus
South Africa1186 Posts
On September 10 2010 23:00 nafta wrote: Attack priority is not A problem it's THE problem.And when you have mules you can afford to send 4/5 scv-s.Don't you think it is fucking ridiculous how scv-s can just surround a planetary fortress and you have to manually target them otherwise your army melts?Not to mention thor rushes when you can't even click the scv because it gets covered by the thor(you have to like zoom in and rotate screen to find them lol)..... Also PLEASE don't even try to compare shield regen to auto repair. dude. You dont hear anyone bitching when you have an army under a momship that you cant see even when you zoom in. Its the whole point of doing it. Also if youre attacking a planetary fortress it means that you are trying to harrass. I dont remember a single time that i saw one in someones main. When youre harrasing the whole point is to click on workers. Also if the plan is to attack one do so from above and it wont bother you. Not so? Another thing. If a guy has to take all of his scvs off his minerals to youre doing a better job of harassing him than if you had to snipe them off one by one. | ||
|
imbecile
563 Posts
This would make terrans a lot more conscious about using stim early, taking away some of the early threat of marauders. Would also probably make them delay medivacs altogether, so high ground can be used for defense a little longer. It really was and still is a strange pattern how so many very powerful abilities of the terrans were and are activated by default (from concussive shells to thor barrage), whereas almost every special ability of every other race needed and needs to be researched. | ||
|
AmishNukes
United States98 Posts
On September 10 2010 23:52 eu.exodus wrote: dude. You dont hear anyone bitching when you have an army under a momship that you cant see even when you zoom in. Its the whole point of doing it. Also if youre attacking a planetary fortress it means that you are trying to harrass. I dont remember a single time that i saw one in someones main. When youre harrasing the whole point is to click on workers. Also if the plan is to attack one do so from above and it wont bother you. Not so? Another thing. If a guy has to take all of his scvs off his minerals to youre doing a better job of harassing him than if you had to snipe them off one by one. Planetary Fortress can take out 80 supply armies by itself whether you try to burst it down or kill scvs you always come out at a disadvantage fighting one unless you hit it with air or huge numbers of units. | ||
| ||
