EPTWhy the Terran problems are not an imbalance issue - Page 13
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tofucake
Hyrule19183 Posts
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
@Everyone: I don't think Terran is overpowered. I don't think Zerg is underpowered. But I do think the way certain Terran and Zerg strengths/weaknesses interact is somewhat funky. TL:NGTR: Early ZvT is a fragile matchup with a lot of very strong counters on both sides. If you exchanged the Terran's and Zerg's ability to scout in the early game, Terrans would be squealing just as hard as Zerg are now. Consider Protoss, who are in the same boat as Zerg as far as scouting and Terran aggressive options are concerned. Zealots and Stalkers with a sprinkling of sentries make a robust, all-purpose early game army, and the quantity and balance of those units can be adjusted as required - a bit like roach/ling in early ZvP. Even though Terran has the same wide range of aggressive options and an even greater ability to deny early scouting than he does versus Zerg, the mere existence, even in principle, of that all-purpose Protoss army (plus the Protoss ability to wall off if he feels like it) acts to stabilise the matchup. Now think about TvZ. Here, the race that is at an early-game scouting disadvantage also has no safe, general-purpose army or turtle-mode to fall back on. The unit counters in TvZ are so strong - on both sides - that a disproportionate advantage is enjoyed by the race with the better ability to scout and the better ability to turtle if he sees something he doesn't like. Imagine you took away the Terran's ability to scan and gave it to the Zerg queen. It would be a farce. "Oh look, you are doing X, I shall safely expand." "Oh look, you are making reactored barracks, I shall make banelings and fast-tech to lair for infestors." And that's without the ability to cheaply wall-in meanwhile! Obviously the famous Zerg one-structure-tech-switch ability would exacerbate the issue if positions were reversed like that. And certainly it goes some way towards redressing the balance as things stand, by enabling more reactive play in the mid-late game. But in the early game, Zerg doesn't have the economy to support tech-switching. Right now, it feels like a bit of a lottery - a lottery where the Terran gets to turtle up and change the numbers if I happen to get it right  | ||
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nttea
Sweden4353 Posts
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
Yeah they are nice but in counter you need them for EVERY Production building and they are relativly fragile. 2 Sensor Tower. Does nothing good Mapcontrol wouldn´t do either. Zerg get cheap creep tumours and Protoss Hallucinations. 3 Medivacs: The other races Transports are just as good and in many points better. They are however underaprechiated. Especially since they have additional mobility options. Nydus Worms and Warp-in. 4 Auto-Repair. Without it repair in combat with SCVs would work exactly like they did in BW: not worth the effort. | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
There is very weird logic afoot in sc2 where Zerg HAS to research upgrades for their units to even be remotely effective while the Terran has upgrades that strengthen already sick units. I really liked the suggestion to nerf medivac unit capacity and give them that back in the form of upgrades I would suggest the following if I where not a terrible player: Nerf marine hp by 10 and marauder hp by 20. Combat shields to 150/150 that gives both these units back 10 hp rather than the upgrade improving the unit, make the upgrades necessary for their units to be effective. But given that I am horrible I really should just improve my game rather than make suggestions that won’t matter. | ||
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Arokh
Switzerland23 Posts
That being said... I just am really frustrated how so many people are complaining about EVERY thing of the Terran race. I understand, that there are imbalances around, but it can not be everything about the race (or at least I think). Seriously, since release I have heard complaints about: Siege Tank damage (in sieged mode) Siege Tank aiming AI PDD energy-effectiveness Thor anti air splash Thor anti air range Ghost EMP area (too big) Marauder Concussive Shells (should be on cooldown) Marauder combined with Stimpack Reaper timing Reaper speed MULE macro advantage MULE repair Missile Turret (build time & damage) Bunker Salvage ability Viking range Terrans are unscoutable until too late even Supply Depots lower ability and your points: Sensor Tower strenght Medivacs ambivalent uses SCV auto repair Tech Labs (flexibility of Terran tech routes) I thank you for trying to deeper understand the probable imbalances of the game, and not just blaming it on some units. I really hope Blizzard does some meaningfull change rather sooner then later. I might even switch my race to Zerg just so that not EVERY-TL-Strategy post is about how my race is superior than the others... | ||
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eu.exodus
South Africa1186 Posts
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Sepp
Netherlands22 Posts
My suggestion: just make lifting buildings cost a small amount of gas/mins, 25/25 for instance, or 0/50. This forces T to choose a Tech early game, and thus good scouting can make the difference. In the current situation, even if you scout pertfectly and react acoordingly, T switches Tech without having made any real investments in their previous tech. I don't think medivacs, auto repair, stimmed mauraders or whatever are the real problems, they can all be countered when scouted. Just force some commitment to a Tech pattern, that's all. | ||
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trevf
United States237 Posts
So you think its fine that Zerg can simply spread creep and get FULL vision of everything on creep, AND post overlords all over the map but Terran having minimap blips after building a gas costly building is IMBA? kk... The sad thing is most people will probably agree with the post because it has pictures and italics and cries for Terran nerfs. | ||
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eu.exodus
South Africa1186 Posts
On September 10 2010 22:02 trevf wrote: So you want to eliminate timing drops? So you think its fine that Zerg can simply spread creep and get FULL vision of everything on creep, AND post overlords all over the map but Terran having minimap blips after building a gas costly building is IMBA? kk... The sad thing is most people will probably agree with the post because it has pictures and italics and cries for Terran nerfs. lol i hear that! But then again. Check any sc2 forum and see the same thing. Im actually getting annoyed with reading the same bs on every blog. | ||
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alkampfer
116 Posts
Maybe they don't want to balance and leave things as they are because the game is called wings of liberty... they'll balance zerg in heart of swarm and protoss in legacy of the void. LOL | ||
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Gemini_19
United States1251 Posts
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shawabawa
United Kingdom417 Posts
I think protoss clearly has it the worst when it comes to drops, warp prisms just take up too much time from robo facs, and are too expensive and vulnerable. The warp in mechanic is nice, but definitely doesn't make up how difficult it is to get enough warp prisms to do a threatening drop, not to mention you pretty much have to get speed if you don't want to lose them all to vikings. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On September 10 2010 20:51 Arokh wrote: That being said... I just am really frustrated how so many people are complaining about EVERY thing of the Terran race. I understand, that there are imbalances around, but it can not be everything about the race (or at least I think). Seriously, since release I have heard complaints about: [...] lol that's kinda the point....while zerg's options are really limited in ZvT and protoss' options being at least decimated to the point where it's either colossi or HT (unless you count void rays in) terrans have extremely many viable strats; I do NOT think that any of these strats is "overpowered" by itself, but the easy tech-switch and the "un-scoutability" of these strats overall is the problem; if we look at GSL, only one korean terran-player has lost a TvP and this was a relatively unknown terran facing tester...probably the strongest protoss in the world right now; obviously this doesn't say much about balance, it's just a couple of games: nevertheless it gets interesting if we analyze HOW all these terran-players managed to beat their protoss-counterparts; if we take a closer look we see that most of these wins come down to: a) timing pushes that are b) nearly always carried out differently we have seen: 1.) early marauder nexus-sniping 2.) early battlecruiser + scv-repair + MM 3.) banshees + raven + marines 4.) tanks + marines 5.) mass-marines 6.) mid-game MMM + viking now obviously not every strat can be "imbalanced", claiming so would be ridiculous; imbalanced is the sheer variety of "workable" stuff that always requires a near perfect response; the protoss may get an early robo for scout + immortal, but then he gets overrun by banshees or probably just mass-marines if the ramp is big ([s]crap station); the protoss may go for pure warpgate, but this obviously isn't viable against standard-MMM; etc. etc. at this point the tech-lab comes into play: unless you go for 1 gate into robo (or go for phoenixes) it is completely impossible to predict which tech-route the terran will choose; and by going 1 gate robo you have already limited your options recently socke had great success by going early phoenixes: although I admire his playstyle, it is really crucial to deal a good amount of harassment-damage to justify their cost; basicly you can't kill anything with phoenixes vs T; vs zerg you can at least kill overloards and deny their mass-expos; but T doesn't rely on early expansions, so going phoenixes vs T is a very tricky task; you will never be able to attack until late-game when you have HT, because there won't be any immortal-support; also if you don't manage to pin the T in his base you may just lose against a marine/marauder-push unit-wise there are currently three problems a) marauders vs buildings - the rate how fast they snipe anything is ridiculous and forces counter-all-ins b) medivacs having both heal and drop without research; as being said, there is no real punishment for choosing a drop-based play c) EMP without research: doesn't make any sense; why do other races need to invest money and time at researching useful stuff while T get the EMP right away; think about it this way: do you think ANYBODY would have complained if EMP had required a research in the first place? | ||
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aka_star
United Kingdom1546 Posts
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nailertn
48 Posts
2. Are you truly claiming that sensor towers are a better tool for map awareness than creep / mobile floating farms? Or that you can't "counter" them? Here is a thought, kill them. They aren't exactly invisible and cost more than an initial 25 energy to reproduce. 3. I am not even sure why I am replying but how is drop play harder in any way for the other races? You make it sound like it comes for free because medivacs are already in the terran game plan whereas overlords / lair / warp tech are some unorthodox route. It is not an additional perk, it is part of the reason medivacs are there to begin with. If you want drop play include it in your game plan and pay its price just like everybody else does. 4. Again you make it sound like SCVs come for free or that auto repair takes less APM than shield regen. Regardless of race if two equal sized armies clash but one of the players brings all his workes to the battle in addition guess who is going to win? This is not a terran specific thing. What IS though is the choice to repair instead of acting as cannon fodder but then of course you forgo the added DPS. I will admit that attack priority is a problem, but that is about it. I am not in any way implying terran has it the hardest, I am saying for every random fact you pulled there are similar mechanics for the other races that make it equal in the end. Funny how terran is imbalanced here and protoss is imbalanced on the asian servers. If anything this signals that Blizzard needs to have a look at zerg. Even out the curve so they are stronger early game and you have a pretty balanced game. | ||
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Therick
Norway324 Posts
Oh well i guess, ![[image loading]](http://knowyourmeme.com/i/000/043/917/original/hatersgonnapanda.jpg?1269196691) User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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babolatt
Canada312 Posts
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On September 10 2010 22:45 nailertn wrote: 4. Again you make it sound like SCVs come for free or that auto repair takes less APM than shield regen. Regardless of race if two equal sized armies clash but one of the players brings all his workes to the battle in addition guess who is going to win? This is not a terran specific thing. What IS though is the choice to repair instead of acting as cannon fodder but then of course you forgo the added DPS. I will admit that attack priority is a problem, but that is about it. Attack priority is not A problem it's THE problem.And when you have mules you can afford to send 4/5 scv-s.Don't you think it is fucking ridiculous how scv-s can just surround a planetary fortress and you have to manually target them otherwise your army melts?Not to mention thor rushes when you can't even click the scv because it gets covered by the thor(you have to like zoom in and rotate screen to find them lol)..... Also PLEASE don't even try to compare shield regen to auto repair. | ||
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babolatt
Canada312 Posts
On September 10 2010 23:00 nafta wrote: And when you have mules you can afford to send 4/5 scv-s How many probes can a protoss afford to send due to chronoboost? | ||
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