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On September 06 2010 18:00 Silver~Guy wrote:
Hello as a player I'd like to weigh in on this issue.
The lag issue is a problem and should not be ignored, if you want the best competitions you have ever seen, every second counts.
Cheating is a possible problem since game-sense and cheating are hard to distinguish.
Stress? Well, I don't know if that will be going away but we can at least mitigate it...
Ideally I think the future of streams should look like this:
[people in the game]
players
admin who video captures (who does not cast)
Admin (otherwise called 1st streamer) lags video by 2 minutes to a hub with a password.
Caster (otherwise called 2nd streamer) picks up the stream and recasts with audio to general public.
Spectators watch 2nd stream.
benefits:
-keeps game almost-live
-limits lag
-minimize the effectiveness of cheating
drawbacks:
-more coordination for admin/streamers/casters
The drawback will be dealt with by formalizing the process by which the admin and casters interact (which will naturally happen after an initial testing period).
About $250 a month per stream (more depending on bandwidth/hours online), plus an initial $400 investment. If you want to donate your winnings, we'll get right on that. Otherwise it's the casters/tournaments that would have to pay for this and you best believe we'd have no interest in sharing it with others and run our bill up higher.
If casters would pay the bill, we'd have to start charging tournaments for coverage. If tournaments would pay the bill, it'd severely hurt the price-pool. Either every stream or every tournament would have to buy one of these hubs. And those costs are assuming that people would code the software for free.
If the community wants to step up and start covering those costs, great, but realistically we'd be much better off with something like waaaghtv.
Not to mention that you'd still have someone in the game potentially lagging, so in essence there's 0 difference between just having 1 or 2 casters in the game when it comes to that aspect.
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i just realised it was huk who started this thread, if hes lists stress, there is stress
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On September 07 2010 02:22 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 18:00 Silver~Guy wrote:
Hello as a player I'd like to weigh in on this issue.
The lag issue is a problem and should not be ignored, if you want the best competitions you have ever seen, every second counts.
Cheating is a possible problem since game-sense and cheating are hard to distinguish.
Stress? Well, I don't know if that will be going away but we can at least mitigate it...
Ideally I think the future of streams should look like this:
[people in the game]
players
admin who video captures (who does not cast)
Admin (otherwise called 1st streamer) lags video by 2 minutes to a hub with a password.
Caster (otherwise called 2nd streamer) picks up the stream and recasts with audio to general public.
Spectators watch 2nd stream.
benefits:
-keeps game almost-live
-limits lag
-minimize the effectiveness of cheating
drawbacks:
-more coordination for admin/streamers/casters
The drawback will be dealt with by formalizing the process by which the admin and casters interact (which will naturally happen after an initial testing period).
About $250 a month per stream (more depending on bandwidth/hours online), plus an initial $400 investment. If you want to donate your winnings, we'll get right on that. Otherwise it's the casters/tournaments that would have to pay for this and you best believe we'd have no interest in sharing it with others and run our bill up higher. If casters would pay the bill, we'd have to start charging tournaments for coverage. If tournaments would pay the bill, it'd severely hurt the price-pool. Either every stream or every tournament would have to buy one of these hubs. And those costs are assuming that people would code the software for free. If the community wants to step up and start covering those costs, great, but realistically we'd be much better off with something like waaaghtv. Not to mention that you'd still have someone in the game potentially lagging, so in essence there's 0 difference between just having 1 or 2 casters in the game when it comes to that aspect.
What cost is this that you're estimating? If casters just use an observer's video feed instead of their own SC2 as the source, they're not paying anything extra. I don't think it costs $250 a month to stream a video to 10-15 streamers, it can be done on someone's home connection.
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I'm sure my sponsors would have been real pleased when I dq'd everyone in the ITL Grand Prix besides Kawaii and he won with only 2 games being played. That would have gone over real well. It's not a problem with one or two key players, it's a problem with almost every single player.
Why are you threatening to DQ people if it's not actually an option? That just damages the tournament's credibility.
If matches are going to be cast via replay, the tournament should have a rule that states the winner of each series must upload their replays before they can begin the next round. Have admins host the matches and check that replays have been received before starting the game. Even in a tournament with a several hundred person draw it can still be manageable if you limit the casting to the round of 16 or round of 8.
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On September 07 2010 02:34 piegasm wrote:Show nested quote +I'm sure my sponsors would have been real pleased when I dq'd everyone in the ITL Grand Prix besides Kawaii and he won with only 2 games being played. That would have gone over real well. It's not a problem with one or two key players, it's a problem with almost every single player. Why are you threatening to DQ people if it's not actually an option? That just damages the tournament's credibility. If matches are going to be cast via replay, the tournament should have a rule that states the winner of each series must upload their replays before they can begin the next round. Have admins host the matches and check that replays have been received before starting the game. Even in a tournament with a several hundred person draw it can still be manageable if you limit the casting to the round of 16 or round of 8.
TL penalized Tarson 1/2 of his Prizepool in the TSL when he leaked the results of his match shortly before they were going to be shown on a polish forum. Rather than threaten a DQ (which obviously punishes the fans as well) add a clause that a refusal to send in replays results in a 10% deduction in winnings per match or something.
Nobody is trying to pile on you Diamond. We all (or at least most) understand the difficulties of setting up and organizing a tournament from scratch with little staff or infrastructure to gain help. The faultiness of Livecasts and Bnet2.0 add even more problems. However, as a community figuring out what is wrong, what works, what doesn't work, what should work, etc... is all beneficial once it is fleshed out and acted upon in a manner conducive to improving the quality of tournaments.
The casters in general need to not look at these discussions and separate themselves from their jobs and look at the criticisms in an unbiased light. It's easy to look at criticism as an insult or slight against you, but I hope all of the casters take something from these discussions and use them.
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On September 07 2010 01:51 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
I've been saying for awhile now this is how things need to be ran. DEATH TO CASTER FREE FOR ALLS!!!
I'm sure my sponsors would have been real pleased when I dq'd everyone in the ITL Grand Prix besides Kawaii and he won with only 2 games being played. That would have gone over real well. It's not a problem with one or two key players, it's a problem with almost every single player.
This kinda seems obvious. I am not even sure why this has not been done yet. I have watched a number of live tournaments and I have not see players complaining in tournaments with only a few certified casters.
Also there should be some sorta standards implemented for casting, a base set of rules that all online tournaments will have to follow
- like all streams should be delayed by 5-10 mins
- no more than 3 observers allowed who will be ref,caster and co caster etc.
Also dqs should not be responsibility of tournament organizers, since they have responsibility to sponsors and conflict of interest arise. Rather I think there should be some sort of ethics committee which oversees the tournaments and makes these decisions. Every sports has one and if SC2 is to become an esport it should have one. This committee can lay ground rules for players,casters and tournaments and outcomes if these are not followed.
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hmm... so making money from esports is not as easy as it seem...
Streaming is a rather costly hobby to have it seem.
On the cheating issue though - what is there to stop someone from using maphack (vs watching the stream in another monitor?) in a live tournament? Good maphackers can make it not obvious that a maphack is being used: ie: not using it to check out enemy composition but just using the minimap to see expos and army movements.
Seem like it is up to blizzard to step up the anti-cheat efforts.
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On September 07 2010 02:47 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
TL penalized Tarson 1/2 of his Prizepool in the TSL when he leaked the results of his match shortly before they were going to be shown on a polish forum. Rather than threaten a DQ (which obviously punishes the fans as well) add a clause that a refusal to send in replays results in a 10% deduction in winnings per match or something.
Nobody is trying to pile on you Diamond. We all (or at least most) understand the difficulties of setting up and organizing a tournament from scratch with little staff or infrastructure to gain help. The faultiness of Livecasts and Bnet2.0 add even more problems. However, as a community figuring out what is wrong, what works, what doesn't work, what should work, etc... is all beneficial once it is fleshed out and acted upon in a manner conducive to improving the quality of tournaments.
The casters in general need to not look at these discussions and separate themselves from their jobs and look at the criticisms in an unbiased light. It's easy to look at criticism as an insult or slight against you, but I hope all of the casters take something from these discussions and use them.
The move to penalize Tarson was a good one. But what happens when you cannot do something like that? Like when iNcontroL spoiled the ITL GP, he was entitled to no prize. Now mind you of course you will never see iNcontroL in another iCCup event, but that does not stop him from playing in ESL or MLG or even the Wolf Cup.
I know you're not trying to pile on and I LOVE discussing things like for sure as it's an issue I've had with live casting when we started. The problem I am having is people just jumping in and saying "add a 5 min delay, ez pz!". It's not easy or cheap or we would have done so from the very start. It's VERY expensive, and companies like Ustream have no way of manually adding a delay.
On September 07 2010 02:49 WickedBit wrote:
This kinda seems obvious. I am not even sure why this has not been done yet. I have watched a number of live tournaments and I have not see players complaining in tournaments with only a few certified casters.
Also there should be some sorta standards implemented for casting, a base set of rules that all online tournaments will have to follow
- like all streams should be delayed by 5-10 mins
- no more than 3 observers allowed who will be ref,caster and co caster etc.
Also dqs should not be responsibility of tournament organizers, since they have responsibility to sponsors and conflict of interest arise. Rather I think there should be some sort of ethics committee which oversees the tournaments and makes these decisions. Every sports has one and if SC2 is to become an esport it should have one. This committee can lay ground rules for players,casters and tournaments and outcomes if these are not followed.
I agree. I will keep saying it so people will hear it. NO MORE CASTER FFA's. PICK ONE TO TWO STREAMING GROUPS. That's all. 95% of this issue would be solved.
Again the delay is very expensive, so cost is a factor. We are not making a lot of $ here.
I agree we need a organization like this, but it does not exist. Even is one pops up it will be a long times before they are able to take over. This does not help the problem right now.
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On September 06 2010 23:54 Nizaris wrote:
Until blizz implements a way to watch replays online with more then one person watching, replay casting is horrible. At least if there are more then one caster. One of them always de-sync and then you hear them talk about stuff that happened 20s ago or stuff that hasn't happened yet. Honestly i just turn off the cast when that happens.
Anyone who was watching the GosuCup finals would have easily taken note of this fact.
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On September 07 2010 03:04 DreamScaR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 23:54 Nizaris wrote:
Until blizz implements a way to watch replays online with more then one person watching, replay casting is horrible. At least if there are more then one caster. One of them always de-sync and then you hear them talk about stuff that happened 20s ago or stuff that hasn't happened yet. Honestly i just turn off the cast when that happens. Anyone who was watching the GosuCup finals would have easily taken note of this fact.
Yep plus the whole "ok are you loaded on 0 seconds? yea? Ok good. Ok let's go in 3-2-1-GOGOGOGOGOG" is soooooooooooooooooooooo unprofessional. Esports can't be taken too seriously when we have to do stupid shit like that.
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On September 07 2010 01:14 Fodder03 wrote:
This is about the game, not about you or some 15 year old nerds who want to watch.
If all you care about is playing the game, then play on the ladder.
If SC2 is a sport, it needs an audience.
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I hope people read Martijn's post... A lot of this is effort based, and a lot of these people don't get paid. O_o They actually put in their own money to do this stuff for the community. I would love to see some numbers on how much the really big tournaments make in profit. Because, these weekly tournaments with smaller prize pools can't afford shit. I mean, people should really just take them for what they are...smaller tournaments to practice for larger tournaments.
In the larger tournaments...everyone should be getting paid for their work. But like Diamond and Martijn said - it's not really done by the smaller tournaments. Lots and lots of work for free, basically.
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i'm wondering how many games were lost due to ppl cheating off streams...
like idra said... there's absolutely no way you can prove cheating due to actions ingame.
Even the slightest piece of information about a build order can be game changing...
most streams got a delay of like 10 to 30 seconds.
i'll tell you what happens if somebody sits in skype and tells you what the other playing is doing "in the future"
baneling bust...
banshees...
roach rush...
colossus...
4 gate...
hidden stargate...
proxy gates...
dts
hidden expo
etc.
these things need TIME and because your friend in skype tells you these things the instant it is been built (well you`ll get it some time later, but it doesnt matter, since these buildings take time to build and most of the time you see what a player is up to, if you can watch his whole build order on stream), you will be prepared for these things... terrans will get bunkers, etc. and most ppl will get prepared in advance for these things anyway, but if you just KNOW what's coming... 1 more "right" unit can decide the game.
"there`s a probe going out probably building a pylon over there"
(even with 30sec-1 minute delay.. i'`d imagine such info game changing and how do you want to convict somebody randomly scouting in the right direction ? - while most players will scout those things anyway, these informations are critical and you can easy fall behind if you miss on scouting something while somebody with help from skype will know exactly what`s going on)
but i'm stunned, that ppl handle this so easily... i mean... getting more information than others (superb scouting), even if it`s about tiny pieces... it`s what makes the difference between and idrA and other players... like day9 says "it`s about those little things"
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You guys forget that the people watching the games are more important than the players, the people watching the games and streams are the only reason why you guys can make money with playing a video game
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On September 07 2010 03:13 xylos wrote:
You guys forget that the people watching the games are more important than the players, the people watching the games and streams are the only reason why you guys can make money with playing a video game
Yeah and the players are the only reasons streamers/sponsors can make money off the game, what's your point
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On September 07 2010 03:13 xylos wrote:
You guys forget that the people watching the games are more important than the players, the people watching the games and streams are the only reason why you guys can make money with playing a video game
Word. As long as the $ is there people will play and fans will watch. Remember when ITL 1 started two of my biggest draws were CauthonLuck and LzGaMeR. Adding people like HuK had no effect on my ratings.
This is about the game and the fans, and because we have both the players are not the biggest thing. There will ALWAYS be new good players, as demonstrated by Silver and Masq most notable lately.
On September 07 2010 03:17 Skeyser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 03:13 xylos wrote:
You guys forget that the people watching the games are more important than the players, the people watching the games and streams are the only reason why you guys can make money with playing a video game Yeah and the players are the only reasons streamers/sponsors can make money off the game, what's your point
That if we lose the fans than these players will all be playing for $100 a week like at the end of BW. People like HuK would not be making $, nor would any of the other players. We would just all be laddering for fun back like BW before SCII.
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yea they should regulated this stuff,
you did good
THE INCREDIBLE HUK
And yeh I remember during KOTH tournaments they have here on TL, a lot of people can just hop on to vent, and discuss with their buddy what the opponent is doing on live stream.
Sure live streams are awesome, but it shouldn`t affect a player performance, and allow cheaters.
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I'll state this fact one more time as a caster who has been apart of a lot of the issues that have been brought up. 95% of the time during a tournament, if I lag.. I'l leave instantly, even if it's not me lagging. If it's the finals of an event that where I work for is putting it on and there's lag, I'll wait on the admins decision to say "Ok, you're doing the replay of this" because I'm not going to have all the viewers just randomly not know anything.
If there was a free way (Haha, at the moment probably thousands of dollars) to be in games as they happen, cast them but they don't get sent to the masses for 30 minutes I would love that fact.
Lets go back to the point of the nVIDIA GosuCup, the finals ended up playing out very smoothly pre-game 3 and post-game 3. With me not being the streamer I was running at a higher FPS rate which means I'll unsync with someone else watching it at the same time, at the one point almost 10-15 seconds. This, is from a replay (keep that in mind). The chat went bat crazy because 15 seconds before the battle they saw happened, was already commentated on and over with. 15 minute game, being done by replay.
Players uploading replays
If there was some way to make it so that, they sent it to the streamer right away. I would be in my glory, but the odds of the player sending it without some SEVERE penalty is almost zero. Yes, people will bitch about it, but it will become a chore and they'll just say fuck it/
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On September 06 2010 10:45 GenoZStriker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 10:44 tertle wrote:
Pretty much we just need waaaghtv for sc2
Only 1 observer but everyone get's to watch live... This. This is what we need. Sadly there is no LAN for SC2 but it would rid most of the problems players like HuK, MorroW and Idra are pointing out.
Here lies the problem, unfortunally.
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On September 07 2010 02:22 Martijn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 06 2010 18:00 Silver~Guy wrote:
Hello as a player I'd like to weigh in on this issue.
The lag issue is a problem and should not be ignored, if you want the best competitions you have ever seen, every second counts.
Cheating is a possible problem since game-sense and cheating are hard to distinguish.
Stress? Well, I don't know if that will be going away but we can at least mitigate it...
Ideally I think the future of streams should look like this:
[people in the game]
players
admin who video captures (who does not cast)
Admin (otherwise called 1st streamer) lags video by 2 minutes to a hub with a password.
Caster (otherwise called 2nd streamer) picks up the stream and recasts with audio to general public.
Spectators watch 2nd stream.
benefits:
-keeps game almost-live
-limits lag
-minimize the effectiveness of cheating
drawbacks:
-more coordination for admin/streamers/casters
The drawback will be dealt with by formalizing the process by which the admin and casters interact (which will naturally happen after an initial testing period).
About $250 a month per stream (more depending on bandwidth/hours online), plus an initial $400 investment. If you want to donate your winnings, we'll get right on that. Otherwise it's the casters/tournaments that would have to pay for this and you best believe we'd have no interest in sharing it with others and run our bill up higher. If casters would pay the bill, we'd have to start charging tournaments for coverage. If tournaments would pay the bill, it'd severely hurt the price-pool. Either every stream or every tournament would have to buy one of these hubs. And those costs are assuming that people would code the software for free. If the community wants to step up and start covering those costs, great, but realistically we'd be much better off with something like waaaghtv. Not to mention that you'd still have someone in the game potentially lagging, so in essence there's 0 difference between just having 1 or 2 casters in the game when it comes to that aspect.
so basically the problem is not the money but the software...
The main problem would be a buffering of 5minutes of HD feed (being 5 minutes as a minimal). It couldnt be done in memory so throw in a 5TB++ of HDD as a buffer. The file size shouldnt be a problem. Only problem is that you cant get more than 10 minutes of delay... Well maybe using multiple temp files. Hmm i wonder how the hell ustream gets 2h vods....
Oh well. We need some programmer to write a program that:
a) receive raw data from the streamer
b) buffers the data on the HDD
c) streams it to other streamer...
Big problem would be that the material would be encoded 2 times so the quality would be lowered...
Oh well maybe someone would figure it out
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EPT
