|
Hello friends. Before you post, read mine  Don't just look at the title.
First of all, I don't agree with the whole 400 mineral thing. The title does not reflect my view on the issue. I've been browsing various forums, and yes this actually is an overblown debate that exists.
The issue:
Many Zerg players seem to think that a Zerg player needs to spend 400 minerals in order to create a new Hatchery.
Others think that the Hatchery costs the Zerg player 350 minerals.
And some actually have explanations as to why a new Hatchery only costs 300 minerals.
Their explanations:
A Drone costs 50 minerals to create. You need to create a Drone to morph into a Hatchery. The Hatchery costs 300 minerals. You need to create a new Drone in order to replace the drone that you have just lost, since the other races do not sacrifice workers in the process of creating a new structure. This new Drone also costs 50 minerals. Thus, 50 + 300 + 50 = 400. The Zerg player just spent 400 minerals.
What the other side is saying:
A drone costs 50 minerals to create. A Hatchery costs 300. There are many explanations I've seen, but they all pretty much disregard the creation of a new Drone. They conclude that it costs a total of 350 minerals to create a new Hatchery due to the fact that the Drone morphs into the Hatchery, and this drone that morphed into the Hatchery cost 50 minerals. 50 + 300 = 350.
My explanation:
I would like to explain why the Zerg player is spending a total of 350 minerals for his new Hatchery. But I would also like to note that both of the above explanations are invalid.
It seems that we are not talking about the actual cost for a Hatchery, which is 300 minerals. We are talking about how much it costs to build a Hatchery while maintaining the same number of drones. It is important that we look at the result of things as well as the process.
You do not include the cost of the drone that morphs into the Hatchery. When I say this, people think I'm crazy, because they know that the 50 mineral Drone actually turns into the Hatchery. So they think that the cost of the drone must obviously be included with the cost of the Hatchery.
Many people seem to forget the fact that a Zerg player starts with the same number of drones as a Terran, or Protoss player. This fact does not apply to just the 6 starting workers. It applies to however many workers that you had to create, 20, 50.. the number doesn't matter. Instead of explaining this process with words, I'll use very simple examples.
---
To make it simpler, let's say that a Drone actually explodes after building something instead of morphing into that building. If this was true, it would only affect supply for the duration of the build time. Everything else stays the same. You make one building, you lose a Drone.
It cost both players a total of 200 minerals to create 4 workers after their 6 starting workers. Yes, both players really spent the same amount of minerals for the same amount of workers. This may seem obvious, but a great majority of people seem to ignore this.
The Zerg player builds a Hatchery with a Drone, when he is at 10/10 supply. Immediately after the Hatchery finishes, the Drone has a heart attack from exhaustion and explodes.
The Terran player does the same, except, he doesn't lose an SCV.
We now have a Zerg player with two Hatcheries with 9 Drones.
We have a Terran player with Two Command Centers with 10 SCVs.
The Zerg player just spent a total of 500 minerals so far in the game. (200 for 4 workers, 300 for a Hatchery)
The Terran player just spent a total of 600 minerals so far in the game. (200 for 4 workers, 400 for a Command Center)
The Zerg player must spend another 50 minerals in order to get back to 10 Drones.
The Terran player does not need to spend any minerals on new workers, since he still has 10 SCVs.
The Zerg player so far has spent a total of 550 minerals.
The Terran player so far has spent a total of 600 minerals.
Subtract the cost of the 4 workers that were made prior to the creation of these Hatcheries/Command Centers. -200 minerals.
350 (Hatchery + New Drone)
400 (Command Center)
---
So, if the Zerg player has the same number of workers that he started out with before creating the Hatchery:
A Hatchery costs 350 minerals with about 17 (Build time for a Drone) seconds of lost mining time for one worker. (Assuming that you start the new Drone the moment the Hatchery starts morphing)
Conclusion:
Creating a Hatchery while maintaining the same number of drones costs 350 minerals, because of the "Replacement Drone" not because of the drone you had to sacrifice.
The real issue is that people think it costs 400. Ignore the 350 thing. If people think It costs 350 minerals for different reasons, yeah, that's not really an issue. I know.
This shit doesn't even matter, I know. But it bothers me, so I wrote about it
lol'd
On August 26 2010 09:43 MalMal wrote:
I pay you $5 for a candy bar, then I need another $5 to replace the $5 I lost, therefore the candy bar costs $10.
Another way of looking at it.
On August 26 2010 10:05 iokke wrote:
Don't replace any drones. Make a drone for the hatchery, make the hatchery. That drone was 50, hatch was 300, hence: 350 is the cost. You have the same amount of drones left as before you started.
|
And now the epic, raging, semantic debate that I never knew about is concluded!
Hatcheries cost 300 +1 drone. 
|
Forgive me if i'm being stupid, but your argument seems to boil down to:
"A hatchery doesn't cost 400 minerals, or 350 (300 + the cost of the drone used to build it)... instead it costs 300 minerals + the cost of the drone you have to build afterwards = 350".
Ok.
|
On August 26 2010 09:17 Alethios wrote:
Forgive me if i'm being stupid, but your argument seems to boil down to:
"A hatchery doesn't cost 400 minerals, or 350 (300 + the cost of the drone used to build it)... instead it costs 350 minerals + the cost of the drone you have to build afterwards".
Ok.
The real issue is that people think it costs 400. Ignore the 350 thing. If people think It costs 350 minerals for different reasons, yeah, that's not really an issue. I know.
|
I'm not sure why people complain about things like this all the time. It's one of the things that makes the game interesting and different. SCVs have to stay and build the building and can get attack while doing it but you have MULEs to balance it out. Drones are sacrificed for the building but are able to make more than 1 drone at a time so it balances out. Protoss has...uh...the best of both worlds and Chronoboost to balance it out.
|
K, so even with imagined math... the Z is still the cheapest. Well done.
|
So with the logic of this post, the protoss sacrifice the least for an early expansion? It makes sense when you look at it like this, but ingame, it just doesn't feel like such.
|
this man spent some time thinking this all through and typing it out. someone give him a nod of approval
|
holy god...a hatchery costs 400 minerals....300 minerals to make....so there is your argument if you have a drone then it costs 300 minerals to make
the 400 price tag is correct, any idiot knows you have to have a drone to make a build and then also have a drone to replace the lost drone
if you disagree with that just go play in traffic cuz thats what the cool kids are doing.
TOTAL cost of a hatchery is 400 minerals
|
I hatchery cost 300 minerals and must be built by sacing a drone. This is one of the things that makes zerg unique and starcraft a good game. everyone knows you must sac a drone to make a zerg building talking about anything but the actual in game cost is just confusing and has zero benifts
|
so if you just started with larvae and no hatchery.
and you had 350 minerals
you could make a drone -50 minerals
make a hatchery -300
and magically do what to get an income going again?
|
lol, makes sense to me :D
|
I still think it's simpler to just say the hatchery costs 350, however it's fine to look at it both ways.
Did you consider that hatcheries don't give (edit ^10^) supply but command centers do? Or the fact zerg can drone up faster than terrans can scv up? Or that overlords count as free scouts whereas supply depots
don't.
It's easier to just say that the hatchery costs an initial drone + 300 minerals and just not compare the zerg to the terran.
edit: HAHAHA 10 posts on this in like 2 minutes. Very funny. Anyways I don't care about the semantics too much, the hatchery could refund a drone for all I cared as long as the game were balanced.
double edit: in before 80 pages of heated debate before closing!
|
well let the alternative/opportunity costs debate be ressurected!! according to which replacing the drone is not equal to 50 minerals....so we start again.
|
On August 26 2010 09:21 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
I still think it's simpler to just say the hatchery costs 350, however it's fine to look at it both ways.
Did you consider that hatcheries don't give supply but command centers do? Or the fact zerg can drone up faster than terrans can scv up? Or that overlords count as free scouts whereas supply depots
don't.
It's easier to just say that the hatchery costs an initial drone + 300 minerals and just not compare the zerg to the terran.
Those are all factors that do not have to do with the issue at hand, but they are real factors indeed
|
On August 26 2010 09:21 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote:
so if you just started with larvae and no hatchery.
and you had 350 minerals
you could make a drone -50 minerals
make a hatchery -300
and magically do what to get an income going again?
very good post....was even better than mine lol
|
so, in a nutshell, you count the drone built afterwards instead of the drone used to build it.
|
i always thought hatchery costs 350 minerals and 1 larvae
|
Another thing to take account is that a larva needed for units is more valuable than a larva that's idle. The cost of a hatch varies much with the state of the game.
|
On August 26 2010 09:21 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote:
so if you just started with larvae and no hatchery.
and you had 350 minerals
you could make a drone -50 minerals
make a hatchery -300
and magically do what to get an income going again?
SCVs don't come out of thin air you know
o.o
|
a hatchery costs 300. a drone costs 50. what you are trying to gauge is the NET COST of producing a building, which is different for each race since zerg sacrifices a drone, while terran temporarily stops mining, while protoss can build with minimal mining time lost. i'd rather just play the game some more instead of theorycrafting ridiculous net costs like this. if you just practice timing things, it doesn't matter what it all costs as long as you have just enough resources to do the next thing.
|
Opportunity cost. Your drone isn't mining.
Not that it matters, because who the hell was having this "debate"?
|
On August 26 2010 09:24 Chairman Ray wrote:
If this is an overblown debate in various forums, then let's keep it in various forums and not TL. It really doesn't make a difference how much a hatchery costs. If Zerg has a problem with their income, it can be tweaked in many different ways.
Yeah but its so fun to debate ahaha.
|
topics like this are useless.
It doesn't contribute to the gosuness of TL at all.
It makes me feel stupid, reading this stuff, because it's so obvious...
a toss player had the best, because he can make buildings without his worker being used for it, so protoss has the cheapest shit. toss > all
|
On August 26 2010 09:24 sparknineone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 09:21 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote:
so if you just started with larvae and no hatchery.
and you had 350 minerals
you could make a drone -50 minerals
make a hatchery -300
and magically do what to get an income going again?
SCVs don't come out of thin air you know o.o
no that would be mules
reguardless his point stands tho
|
good post but are people really this moronic?
honestly makes me a little sick to my stomach
|
If you're gonna talk about hatcheries then you might as well just say that every Zerg building costs 50-100 minerals more than the building cost. This argument seems kind of ridiculous.
|
10387 Posts
What significance does this even have? Does anyone actually give a shit?
|
in bw the discussion was the same... so dont go crazy over it...so this should be closed briefly.
|
On August 26 2010 09:26 yomi wrote:
good post but are people really this moronic?
honestly makes me a little sick to my stomach
Yes
and
Me too.
|
this is funny thread. I really really like it A LOT
|
Ok, we all know zerg starts with 6 free drones.
What if we use one of those free drones to make a hatchery, wouldn't hatchery cost 300 instead of 350?
Bad math in a nutshell.
|
Correct me if I am wrong, but if this really is a debate in various forums why dont you just post your (very elaborate) answer there in the actuall topic? Would have saved me the time reading through all your text waiting for a big revealtion that (not surprisingly) never came.
|
On August 26 2010 09:27 NightOfTheDead wrote:this is funny thread. I really really like it A LOT
Me too ^^
|
hatcheries cost 400 minerals. its the bottom line
|
somebody call accounting! i've suddenly realized how much we're spending on fucking hatcheries! OMG!
|
If you mineral line is saturated and you build a building it is no longer saturated so obviosuly you need to include the new drone so it is 400 minerals to build a hatcher. Why do you think Blizzard chose 300 for the building? It's no coincidence buddy, they did it because to make things equal it would be 300 + 50 + 50 = 400 just like the other races. No joke, I dont even know why this is a debate, it doesn't matter anyway but the answer is obvious.
|
On August 26 2010 09:27 ArvickHero wrote:
What significance does this even have? Does anyone actually give a shit?
can i have a signature with your quote?
|
The people just spewing flames and advising the OP to play in the traffic really make me wonder if they even bothered to read his post.
Because this actually makes sense if you take the time to read it.
+ Show Spoiler +---
To make it simpler, let's say that a Drone actually explodes after building something instead of morphing into that building. If this was true, it would only affect supply for the duration of the build time. Everything else stays the same. You make one building, you lose a Drone.
It cost both players a total of 200 minerals to create 4 workers after their 6 starting workers. Yes, both players really spent the same amount of minerals for the same amount of workers. This may seem obvious, but a great majority of people seem to ignore this.
The Zerg player builds a Hatchery with a Drone, when he is at 10/10 supply. Immediately after the Hatchery finishes, the Drone has a heart attack from exhaustion and explodes.
The Terran player does the same, except, he doesn't lose an SCV.
We now have a Zerg player with two Hatcheries with 9 Drones.
We have a Terran player with Two Command Centers with 10 SCVs.
The Zerg player just spent a total of 500 minerals so far in the game. (200 for 4 workers, 300 for a Hatchery)
The Terran player just spent a total of 600 minerals so far in the game. (200 for 4 workers, 400 for a Command Center)
The Zerg player must spend another 50 minerals in order to get back to 10 Drones.
The Terran player does not need to spend any minerals on new workers, since he still has 10 SCVs.
The Zerg player so far has spent a total of 550 minerals.
The Terran player so far has spent a total of 600 minerals.
Subtract the cost of the 4 workers that were made prior to the creation of these Hatcheries/Command Centers. -200 minerals.
350 (Hatchery + New Drone)
400 (Command Center)
---
|
useless thread is useless.
|
I choose to believe that everyone saying it costs 400 minerals is trolling, in order to preserve my sanity.
|
On August 26 2010 09:30 ckw wrote:
If you mineral line is saturated and you build a building it is no longer saturated so obviosuly you need to include the new drone so it is 400 minerals to build a hatcher. Why do you think Blizzard chose 300 for the building? It's no coincidence buddy, they did it because to make things equal it would be 300 + 50 + 50 = 400 just like the other races. No joke, I dont even know why this is a debate, it doesn't matter anyway but the answer is obvious.
lol :D I start to really like this thread hope it stays open for a while
edit: even missed some better posts on page 1 cause so many answers in so little time.
|
Why does it even matter? Races can be different. If it's broken, fix it; if it's not, leave it alone. If Hatcheries cost 1000 minerals and gave you 333 gas it's still fine if the game is still fun.
|
i think im starting to lose sanity. But i find it very hilarious. Can anyone else explain what they think on this matter. Please in a more elaborate manner.
|
This is so stupid. Anyone who thinks it costs 400 is obviously just fail at thinking.
|
On August 26 2010 09:21 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote:
so if you just started with larvae and no hatchery.
and you had 350 minerals
you could make a drone -50 minerals
make a hatchery -300
and magically do what to get an income going again?
you are back precisely where you started, but with 0 minerals. hatchery = 350+lost mining time
|
Whhatatttt? A hatchery costs 350 minerals and 1 larva. I don't see why you should measure it any other way.
|
As an early participant in the (now 32 page) discussion on the official forums, in which I took the 350 side, I can honestly say that in my opinion you haven't done teamliquid.net a favor by bringing this discussion here.
Edit: Here's the original thread from the official forums.
Common Misconception: Replacement Drones
I post this here to suggest that you have a look at that mess before arguing this point one way or another.
|
On August 26 2010 09:36 PJA wrote:
This is so stupid. Anyone who thinks it costs 400 is obviously just fail at thinking.
or are trolling
|
Seriously, Blizzard made it 300 for a REASON.
300 Hatchery.
50 For the Drone Lost.
50 For the Drone to replace it.
It's not a hard concept to understand.
You don't get 10 supply from it, and thats equivalent to a supply depot plus 2 supply which is 100 minerals there. So if Zerg hatcheries are cost 400 AND need an overlord to get what you get out of your main buildings, then Command centers and Nexi are cost 500.
We can sit here and argue all day, but theres one thing for sure, Blizzard didn't just say, DERP lets make it 300 minerals just cause DERP.
|
In the end... it doesn't even matter.
A hatchery cost 300 minerals and a drone. Fact.
|
On August 26 2010 09:21 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote:
so if you just started with larvae and no hatchery.
and you had 350 minerals
you could make a drone -50 minerals
make a hatchery -300
and magically do what to get an income going again?
what does this have to do with anything
in a NORMAL game situation you don't MAKE a drone to build the hatchery, you use one of your mining drones
you already spent the 50 on your mining drone, so it's a sunk cost. The only other cost you take apart from the 300 you use to make the hatchery is the 50 you use to replace the lost drone
what you are saying is just circumnstancial and it will never happen in a real game situation. If we're going to decide the cost of the hatchery based on the context in which it is made, at least provide a plausible context
|
On August 26 2010 09:23 SOCOMICEPICK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 09:21 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote:
so if you just started with larvae and no hatchery.
and you had 350 minerals
you could make a drone -50 minerals
make a hatchery -300
and magically do what to get an income going again?
very good post....was even better than mine lol
What? His post clearly shows that it costs 350, not 400...
You start with nothing, you spend 350 minerals, and end up with the exact same thing (no units) but +1 hatchery.
CC's cost 400 minerals correct?
So if you started with 400 minerals and no SCVs... you spend 50 minerals to purchase an SCV and now you can't buy the CC... in order to have "CC and 1 worker" you need 450 minerals in this scenario, just as in order to have "hatchery and 1 worker" you need 400 minerals. Are you going to argue now that a CC costs 450 minerals? No.
|
On August 26 2010 09:35 Redmark wrote:
Why does it even matter? Races can be different. If it's broken, fix it; if it's not, leave it alone. If Hatcheries cost 1000 minerals and gave you 333 gas it's still fine if the game is still fun.
That would be really interesting. Fund it.
|
While we are arguing, if it costs 400 (for replacement drone) then it in fact costs more because that drone isn't harvesting while it is being morphed.
And dont forget about the travel time, if the drone has to move across the map, that is once again lost harvesting time. Its fuzzy math after that
/sarcasm off
If you decide, " I want to make a hatchery" you have 2 ways to view what it will cost you. You can make a drone, and make the hatchery. OR you can pull a drone, make the hatchery, and replace the drone. 350 one way, 400 the other + fuzzy math of course.
Or if you like to play in traffic like me, I just build the hatchery and forget about the drone replacement drone for a few minutes, which probably then makes the hatchery cost about 600...
I think this post account to a room full of people arguing about the color green, when half of them are colorblind. Everyone is right in their own head, while everyone is with conflicting opinions.
|
you can easily explain the cost of a hatchery with words instead of numbers, because in the real world, nobody has time for you chicken shit 5 minute explanation of why it costs 350 or 400
"a hatchery costs 300, but zerg buildings require that you sacrifice a drone to build anything" done
then you can explain that drones cost 50 minerals and are capable of all kinds of neat things other than building hatcheries, this is what matters the most.
|
I just logged in to my SC2 account and started a game as zerg. After some in depth research I can officialy conclude :
Hatcheries cost 300 minerals
|
On August 26 2010 09:38 baconbits wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 09:36 PJA wrote:
This is so stupid. Anyone who thinks it costs 400 is obviously just fail at thinking. or are trolling
Niether, who is to say you're right and I am wrong or Fail or a Troll, I think both of your responses to this thread are the dumbest yet and the true trolling.
|
I pay you $5 for a candy bar, then I need another $5 to replace the $5 I lost, therefore the candy bar costs $10.
|
make it 400, but increase the spawn rate of larvae by 10% or at least let queens injection spawn 1 more larva.
the problem for zerg is not really about spending 400 or 300
imo the much bigger problem always will be, that you have very very limited larvae and can not effort to waste one in early game.
so increase, if others cry about it, but then increase the larvae count
|
On August 26 2010 09:35 NightOfTheDead wrote:
i think im starting to lose sanity. But i find it very hilarious. Can anyone else explain what they think on this matter. Please in a more elaborate manner.
Hatcher cost 300 + 1 drone.
1 drone cost 50.
By simple algebra, Hatchery cost 350.
|
On August 26 2010 09:41 Domingo wrote:
I think this post account to a room full of people arguing about the color green, when half of them are colorblind. Everyone is right in their own head, while everyone is with conflicting opinions.
Man you just summed up every argument to have ever existed.
|
|
|
On August 26 2010 09:41 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 09:23 SOCOMICEPICK wrote:On August 26 2010 09:21 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote:
so if you just started with larvae and no hatchery.
and you had 350 minerals
you could make a drone -50 minerals
make a hatchery -300
and magically do what to get an income going again?
very good post....was even better than mine lol What? His post clearly shows that it costs 350, not 400... You start with nothing, you spend 350 minerals, and end up with the exact same thing (no units) but +1 hatchery. CC's cost 400 minerals correct? So if you started with 400 minerals and no SCVs... you spend 50 minerals to purchase an SCV and now you can't buy the CC... in order to have "CC and 1 worker" you need 450 minerals in this scenario, just as in order to have "hatchery and 1 worker" you need 400 minerals. Are you going to argue now that a CC costs 450 minerals? No.
haha i admit i started off trolling in this thread just a tad bit myself (even tho i still gave the correct answer)....but they really do cost 400, you arent fooling me tho i know you cant be serious
|
On August 26 2010 09:43 MalMal wrote:
I pay you $5 for a candy bar, then I need another $5 to replace the $5 I lost, therefore the candy bar costs $10.
the point is more about your wasted larva.
you need to wait for one more to spawn. in this time the other one would have had collected tons of minerals.
so its about the 5$, that you could have earned with investments from your other 5$.
but since you bought a candy bar..
yea you would need another 5$ to replace it.
edit:
advantage on 5 $ thing lies on the hands.
you can replace it with 10$
but in sc2 you have to wait for more larvae. no matter how many money you own 
|
If you spend 300 minerals, you have +1 hatcheries and -1 drones.
If you spend 350 minerals, you have +1 hatcheries and the same amount of drones as before.
If you spend 400 minerals, you have +1 hatcheries and +1 drones.
|
On August 26 2010 09:43 SirIsaacNewton wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 09:35 NightOfTheDead wrote:
i think im starting to lose sanity. But i find it very hilarious. Can anyone else explain what they think on this matter. Please in a more elaborate manner. Hatcher cost 300 + 1 drone. 1 drone cost 50. By simple algebra, Hatchery cost 350.
plus the money, you lost in the idle time of your drone, when building up an expansion instead of earning minerals
|
No, saying you want to end up at the same amount of drones not including the opportunity cost of a drone mining:
+300 for hatchery
+50 for drone
+50 for drone to replace
-25 minerals for 2 supply
Cost,
375 minerals.
Larva is not a resource in sc2 unlike sc1
|
On August 26 2010 09:46 jalstar wrote:
If you spend 300 minerals, you have +1 hatcheries and -1 drones.
If you spend 350 minerals, you have +1 hatcheries and the same amount of drones as before.
If you spend 400 minerals, you have +1 hatcheries and +1 drones.
This.
The hatchery itself costs 300 minerals. I don't see what there is to argue about.
|
Who cares? The hatch will get roflpwned anyway.
|
On August 26 2010 09:44 SOCOMICEPICK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 09:41 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 26 2010 09:23 SOCOMICEPICK wrote:On August 26 2010 09:21 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote:
so if you just started with larvae and no hatchery.
and you had 350 minerals
you could make a drone -50 minerals
make a hatchery -300
and magically do what to get an income going again?
very good post....was even better than mine lol What? His post clearly shows that it costs 350, not 400... You start with nothing, you spend 350 minerals, and end up with the exact same thing (no units) but +1 hatchery. CC's cost 400 minerals correct? So if you started with 400 minerals and no SCVs... you spend 50 minerals to purchase an SCV and now you can't buy the CC... in order to have "CC and 1 worker" you need 450 minerals in this scenario, just as in order to have "hatchery and 1 worker" you need 400 minerals. Are you going to argue now that a CC costs 450 minerals? No. haha i admit i started off trolling in this thread just a tad bit myself (even tho i still gave the correct answer)....but they really do cost 400, you arent fooling me tho i know you cant be serious
I'm not sure if you're still trying to troll now. It's not even a question on whether or not it's 350 or 400. It's been proven algebraically that it's 350.
You can't take into consideration "lost mining time," because SCVs encounter the exact same issue.
If you "rebuild" the drone you're ending up with an EXTRA DRONE YOU NEVER HAD IN THE FIRST PLACE. I can only repeat the people's examples...
Say you have 400 minerals, ZERO workers, and ONE hatchery. This is what you start with.
1. You now build one drone. You are not currently at 350 minerals in the bank, and have one extra drone you never had when you started. Agreed?
2. You use that one drone to build a hatchery. You are at zero drones once again. You now have a second hatchery. You have currently spent 350 minerals to build that hatchery.
3. This replacement drone costs 50 minerals (the last 50 minerals you have in your bank). What are you left with? One extra drone that you never started with at the end. Terran and Protoss do not end up with this extra worker.
On August 26 2010 09:47 loadme wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 09:43 SirIsaacNewton wrote:On August 26 2010 09:35 NightOfTheDead wrote:
i think im starting to lose sanity. But i find it very hilarious. Can anyone else explain what they think on this matter. Please in a more elaborate manner. Hatcher cost 300 + 1 drone. 1 drone cost 50. By simple algebra, Hatchery cost 350. plus the money, you lost in the idle time of your drone, when building up an expansion instead of earning minerals
Terran has an identical issue. It's easier to look at it as an advantage for Protoss rather than something being wrong with Terran and Zerg.
|
On August 26 2010 09:41 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 09:23 SOCOMICEPICK wrote:On August 26 2010 09:21 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote:
so if you just started with larvae and no hatchery.
and you had 350 minerals
you could make a drone -50 minerals
make a hatchery -300
and magically do what to get an income going again?
very good post....was even better than mine lol What? His post clearly shows that it costs 350, not 400... You start with nothing, you spend 350 minerals, and end up with the exact same thing (no units) but +1 hatchery. CC's cost 400 minerals correct? So if you started with 400 minerals and no SCVs... you spend 50 minerals to purchase an SCV and now you can't buy the CC... in order to have "CC and 1 worker" you need 450 minerals in this scenario, just as in order to have "hatchery and 1 worker" you need 400 minerals. Are you going to argue now that a CC costs 450 minerals? No.
this is so great
|
ya but zergs make very few buildings =( so its all good
terrans have it worst for building have to use scvs all day on 1 building Double =((
|
On August 26 2010 09:47 loadme wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 09:43 SirIsaacNewton wrote:On August 26 2010 09:35 NightOfTheDead wrote:
i think im starting to lose sanity. But i find it very hilarious. Can anyone else explain what they think on this matter. Please in a more elaborate manner. Hatcher cost 300 + 1 drone. 1 drone cost 50. By simple algebra, Hatchery cost 350. plus the money, you lost in the idle time of your drone, when building up an expansion instead of earning minerals
actually its the idle time of the whole drone lifetime, during which he could have gathered minerals instead.
|
On August 26 2010 09:41 FabledIntegral wrote:
So if you started with 400 minerals and no SCVs... you spend 50 minerals to purchase an SCV and now you can't buy the CC... in order to have "CC and 1 worker" you need 450 minerals in this scenario, just as in order to have "hatchery and 1 worker" you need 400 minerals. Are you going to argue now that a CC costs 450 minerals? No.
Interesting thought why dont you open a new topic on that. You should explain your idea a little bit more in depth though, because I feel you will get some resistence here but dont loose faith
|
On August 26 2010 09:32 drpepper wrote:
useless thread is useless.
Pretty much. This could be an interesting topic if the debate featured more than just the hatchery cost. Perhaps an cost/benefit analysis among the possible zerg BOs, give players a sense of timing on when to build the next hatch, etc.
There's no change in regards to the cost of building a new base between SC1 and SC2. Why would this matter now?
|
On August 26 2010 09:43 sparknineone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 09:41 Domingo wrote:
I think this post account to a room full of people arguing about the color green, when half of them are colorblind. Everyone is right in their own head, while everyone is with conflicting opinions. Man you just summed up every argument to have ever existed.
lol thats such a good analogy
|
Okay, serious reply: it is impractical to measure the cost of a hatchery in minerals alone. Why? Because it costs 300 minerals and a drone, and how much that drone is worth is usually (but not always!) more than 50 minerals, but it varies depending on the game situation.
Why is a drone usually worth more than 50 minerals? Imagine you had a (free) structure that could either instantly convert 50 minerals to a drone or a drone to 50 minerals. You'd use it to convert minerals to drones, of course, and almost never drones to minerals. That's because you have a limited number of hatcheries, and therefore a limited amount of larvae, and it takes a larva to convert 50 minerals to a drone. (The drone building time just makes the drone worth even more.)
Occasionally you might use the converter the other way--say on a mined-out map, where you'd rather have another pair of zerglings (say) than the drone.
|
On the real...
This is really a matter of accounting. Businesses will divide their expenses into separated cost buckets to figure out where the money is going. Big surprise is - they all do it differently. There exists industry standards and popular methods to account for the many expenses, but the truth is that these costs are all accounted for in different ways.
All I mean to say is that you can all take your own approach to this. Establish a number for yourself that is easy to understand, you don't need to fight the fact that other people will see it differently.
|
On August 26 2010 09:43 MalMal wrote:
I pay you $5 for a candy bar, then I need another $5 to replace the $5 I lost, therefore the candy bar costs $10.
Dude, who would pay 5$ for a candy bar?
|
On August 26 2010 09:54 neobowman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 09:43 MalMal wrote:
I pay you $5 for a candy bar, then I need another $5 to replace the $5 I lost, therefore the candy bar costs $10. Dude, who would pay 5$ for a candy bar?
Dude it's Hagen daaz.
|
On August 26 2010 09:54 neobowman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 09:43 MalMal wrote:
I pay you $5 for a candy bar, then I need another $5 to replace the $5 I lost, therefore the candy bar costs $10. Dude, who would pay 5$ for a candy bar?
For real. Make it a weed brownie.
|
You are obfuscating the matter at hand by trying to translate the various costs involved into minerals. Don't do that. You will be smarter for it.
Various concepts to take into account.
-Opportunity cost (loss of actual mining time during build process as well as potential mining time for that drone, and diminishing effect due to mineral line saturation)
-Drones are assets, not liabilities (you can use drones that you have produced previously, and have payed back their initial investment by mining)
So by your 'maths' I have a drone that cost me -350 minerals, because it harvested 400 and cost me 50. My mineral line is saturated already, so then a hatch costs 300-350. Oh my god the Hatchery is not only free but it is -50 Minerals. Holy shit lets make 20 of them and saturate the map.
No, just no. It doesn't work like that, it dumbs it down so much that it is completely inaccurate. The most accurate description of the hatch is this:
300 Minerals + 1 Drone + Opportunity cost (What could I have make to help me stay alive with those minerals, what would have been the second best thing I could have built/mined with that drone)
Opportunity cost = the reason why people pull workers off gas to get more minerals.
Opportunity cost = The reason why expanding is not always a good idea at every point in time.
|
if you are taking mining time into account then note that the lost time is equal to the time the drone takes to hatch, while in the case of terran, the lost time is equal to the time the CC takes to finish building
just a thought, it really isn't relevant in the discussion, but it was just to say that if you start nitpicking all the secondary costs you will end up with a headache
|
350: the new drone created will be just another drone created and u can't add the cost of it to the hatch...
|
On August 26 2010 09:24 sparknineone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 09:21 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote:
so if you just started with larvae and no hatchery.
and you had 350 minerals
you could make a drone -50 minerals
make a hatchery -300
and magically do what to get an income going again?
SCVs don't come out of thin air you know o.o
THEY COME OUT AFTER YOU FINISH BUILDING
COME ON MAN, USE YOUR BRAIN
|
Wtf is this... Its so simple math to count it... Drone+hatchery+new drone = 400 minerals cost ffs
|
Forgetting the silly cost argument, there's also the fact that the hatchery is, despite the sudden macro mechanic change to it, still the zerg's production facility, and not just the resource node and worker production facility it is for the other races. This carries over from one, and as it stands there's no real balance issues with the current cost, even though the particular reasoning behind it is only marginally less strong.
|
United Kingdom16710 Posts
wow you are really over-thinking this. basically you gave an unnecessarily long-winded statement that hatcheries cost 300, drones costs 50, therefore sacrificiing a drone to create a hatchery costs 350. well spank me and call me sherlock!
|
while we're talking about opportunity costs..
let's talk about worker scouting, or parking them near a xel'naga tower, or using them in fight for leet micro. can we put a price on this shit? naaaaaaaaaa
this is gettin too deep and too funny to ignore
|
You just wrote like 1000 words to expalin what anyone who isn't completely retarded should be able to conceptualize.
I mean you answer is correct, but is there really that big of a debate?
300 minerals + drone 50 = 350.
There ^^ i just summarized your post in one line.
|
i'm pretty sure that the more $10 words and business terms you use in your post, the more right you are
|
Let's go through what happens when you build a hatchery:
1) You pull a drone off of your mineral line. This drone will create the hatchery.
2) You send the drone to wherever you're building the hatchery and you build it. 300 minerals are subtracted from what you currently have.
3) You continue making drones until you have the amount that you want to begin unit production at, at which point you stop.
Comparing that to if you had not built the hatchery and had only built drones until you had that same amount, it costs you: 1 larva and 50 minerals for the extra drone you have to build in step 3 to reach that count, 300 minerals for the hatchery itself in step 2, and the mining time that the drone would have had between when it was pulled in step 1 and when you stop building drones in step 3.
So, 1 hatchery costs 350 minerals, 1 larva, and an additional amount of minerals that varies based on when you pulled the drone to make it and when you ceased drone production.
End of topic.
|
On August 26 2010 10:00 Kashll wrote:
You just wrote like 1000 words to expalin what anyone who isn't completely retarded should be able to conceptualize.
I mean you answer is correct, but is there really that big of a debate?
300 minerals + drone 50 = 350.
There ^^ i just summarized your post in one line.
It's more convincing with examples. I think statements without elaborate explanations/examples just fuel arguments. Like my first sentence.
|
On August 26 2010 10:01 Kpyolysis32 wrote:
Let's go through what happens when you build a hatchery:
1) You pull a drone off of your mineral line. This drone will create the hatchery.
2) You send the drone to wherever you're building the hatchery and you build it. 300 minerals are subtracted from what you currently have.
3) You continue making drones until you have the amount that you want to begin unit production at, at which point you stop.
Comparing that to if you had not built the hatchery and had only built drones until you had that same amount, it costs you: 1 larva and 50 minerals for the extra drone you have to build in step 3 to reach that count, 300 minerals for the hatchery itself in step 2, and the mining time that the drone would have had between when it was pulled in step 1 and when you stop building drones in step 3.
So, 1 hatchery costs 350 minerals, 1 larva, and an additional amount of minerals that varies based on when you pulled the drone to make it and when you ceased drone production.
End of topic.
There you have all the needed explanations, if you want to involve real gaming math.
|
On August 26 2010 09:20 SOCOMICEPICK wrote:
holy god...a hatchery costs 400 minerals....300 minerals to make....so there is your argument if you have a drone then it costs 300 minerals to make
the 400 price tag is correct, any idiot knows you have to have a drone to make a build and then also have a drone to replace the lost drone
if you disagree with that just go play in traffic cuz thats what the cool kids are doing.
TOTAL cost of a hatchery is 400 minerals
Sorry, didnt read all of the comments, but this one is just silly:
400 cause u need to replace a drone that makes a hatchery with another drone, and including cost of both of them is plain wrong...
To make math super easy for you people who overthink this:
Dont replace any drones. Make a drone for the hatchery, make the hatchery. That drone was 50, hatch was 300, hence: 350 is the cost. U have the same amount of drones left as before you started.
If anything, argument could be made that the real cost is under 350 because you had 50 minerals out of that 350 mining for you for a long time=P. But every race is different, and it should be like that
|
So lets say an SCV has to be sacrificed to make a command center!
Would a CC still cost 400 minerals to get back where you were?
make scv = 50 minerals
make command center = 400 minerals
make scv = 50 minerals
= 500 cost
This thread is just basically OP terran telling zerg players to stop whining
Edit: And just for proof im right, im like 800 point diamond zerg player ok?
|
On August 26 2010 09:21 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote:
so if you just started with larvae and no hatchery.
and you had 350 minerals
you could make a drone -50 minerals
make a hatchery -300
and magically do what to get an income going again?
Why the hell would you make a second hatchery if you had exactly 350 minerals and no drones
|
On August 26 2010 09:54 neobowman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 09:43 MalMal wrote:
I pay you $5 for a candy bar, then I need another $5 to replace the $5 I lost, therefore the candy bar costs $10. Dude, who would pay 5$ for a candy bar?
Dude that's exactly what I was thinking. If you're paying five bucks for candy, unless it's the greatest candy in the world, you're getting jipped.
|
On August 26 2010 10:05 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote:
So lets say an SCV has to be sacrificed to make a command center!
Would a CC still cost 400 minerals to get back where you were?
make scv = 50 minerals
make command center = 400 minerals
make scv = 50 minerals
= 500 cost
This thread is just basically OP terran telling zerg players to stop whining
I can't tell if you are trolling or need to be euthanized. In your example the command center would cost 450, not 500. There's no cost of the "second scv or second drone". That is your fallacy.
|
On August 26 2010 09:43 MalMal wrote:
I pay you $5 for a candy bar, then I need another $5 to replace the $5 I lost, therefore the candy bar costs $10.
I actually choked on my dinner while reading this - was having a hard time putting into words how ridiculous the 400 mineral logic is but this sums it up pretty well.
A hatchery costs:
- 300 minerals
- a drone (worth 50 minerals)
- a larva (potentially bottlenecking production, but no value if not used within a short time period)
- lost mining time for the drone until a new drone can replace it - this is the 17 seconds it takes for a new drone to emerge, and not the time it takes for a hatchery to complete (terran also lose potential mining time when building)
In mineral costs (absolute or potential) this will work out to about 360 minerals. Note that to compare it with terran structures the correct value would be 350 minerals. The loss of a larva is not comparable to anything the other races have to offer, but must be weighed independently.
|
|
|
On August 26 2010 10:05 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote:
So lets say an SCV has to be sacrificed to make a command center!
Would a CC still cost 400 minerals to get back where you were?
make scv = 50 minerals
make command center = 400 minerals
make scv = 50 minerals
= 500 cost
This thread is just basically OP terran telling zerg players to stop whining
Edit: And just for proof im right, im like 800 point diamond zerg player ok?
800 points.. in Bronze?
Your argument doesn't make any sense.
|
On August 26 2010 10:08 Cantankerous wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 09:43 MalMal wrote:
I pay you $5 for a candy bar, then I need another $5 to replace the $5 I lost, therefore the candy bar costs $10. - a larva (potentially bottlenecking production, but no value if not used within a short time period) - lost mining time for the drone until a new drone can replace it - this is the 17 seconds it takes for a new drone to emerge, and not the time it takes for a hatchery to complete (terran also lose potential mining time when building) .
Actually it is lost mining time when u finish building drones, aka full saturation. Because the lost drone would add up until u have finished producing them.
|
On August 26 2010 09:33 blueblimp wrote:
I choose to believe that everyone saying it costs 400 minerals is trolling, in order to preserve my sanity.
It's not trolling, it's...ok, I can't think of anything that isn't insulting .
Hatcheries cost 350 minerals:
-> They cost a drone then a hatch -> 50 + 300, meaning you build a new drone to make the hatchery with, otherwise:
-> They cost a hatch then a drone -> 300 + 50, meaning you use an existing drone and then build a new drone to replace it.
It's very simple: If you count both the drone you used AND the next drone you build, you are not building a new hatchery. You are building a new hatchery and a new drone. It's super-simple and super-obvious.
To those who say it only costs 300 minerals, that's just as wrong, IMO. I assume their rationale is that you gain mining time while you save up 300 minerals - which is true if you use an existing drone - however what you gain there if you are using a mining drone for hatchery creation you lose while you have to spawn a new drone, it all balances out in the end .
The reason Zerg gets a cheaper expansion, btw, is because they need it. It's their production building as well as their resource gathering point and their units are weaker on the whole than the other two races.
|
guys, extractor = 25 minerals.
|
On August 26 2010 10:12 GlassMan wrote:
guys, extractor = 25 minerals.
lol this reminded me of something that actually has A LOT of game influence.
this is MUST watch if your interested in this topic
|
On August 26 2010 10:12 GlassMan wrote:
guys, extractor = 25 minerals.
Ok lets say you have 5 drones and you want to build an extractor. You make an extractor with a drone - 25 for extractor and - 25 for drone.
Not you have 4 drones and an extractor
make another drone = 50 minerals. total = 125
forge costs 150 so its a pretty good deal for zerg IMO
|
On August 26 2010 10:15 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote:Ok lets say you have 5 drones and you want to build an extractor. You make an extractor with a drone - 25 for extractor and - 25 for drone. Not you have 4 drones and an extractor make another drone = 50 minerals. total = 125 forge costs 150 so its a pretty good deal for zerg IMO
Haha, this thread is fantastic :D
I don't like assuming people are trolling so I'll explain anyway (again).
Let's say I do have 5 drones and want to build an extractor. I leave my current 5 drones mining alone. I make a new drone (50 minerals) with the SOLE PURPOSE of making an extractor with it. It finishes building. I turn it into an extractor (25 minerals). It finishes building.
I now have my original 5 drones mining, which I didn't touch, and an extractor. I spent 75 minerals.
|
banelings cost 150/50 LOL!!!!
You need 1 zergling = 25
You need to upgrade that zergling = 25/25
You need to replace zergling = 25
That's 75/25
BUT WAIT
You need to replace baneling because to use it it must blow up!
So double that!
75/25 * 2 = 150/50 for a baneling!
One baneling has to kill like 4 marines to be worth it lol buff banelings guys!!!!
|
On August 26 2010 10:10 NightOfTheDead wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 10:08 Cantankerous wrote:On August 26 2010 09:43 MalMal wrote:
I pay you $5 for a candy bar, then I need another $5 to replace the $5 I lost, therefore the candy bar costs $10. - a larva (potentially bottlenecking production, but no value if not used within a short time period) - lost mining time for the drone until a new drone can replace it - this is the 17 seconds it takes for a new drone to emerge, and not the time it takes for a hatchery to complete (terran also lose potential mining time when building) . Actually it is lost mining time when u finish building drones, aka full saturation. Because the lost drone would add up until u have finished producing them.
Can you clarify what you mean?
|
Well, IMHO, the 6 first hatcheries (or until you build 6 buildings) cost 300.
You can test it, you start a game, gather 1800 gold(300*6), dont spawn a single unit, and proceed to build 6 hatcheries.
If you want to build a 7th one, you need to spend 50 (for a drone) and 300 more for the hatchery itself.
A totally different problem, is how much gold would you have if you didnt build a Hatchery.
For example, protoss, would have X gold (depends on how many proves he got) + 400 (Nexus) + gold not gathered by the probe in the travel process.
Terran, would have X gold + 400 (CC) + gold not gathered by the SCV in the travel+CC build time process
Zerg, would have X gold+300 (or 350 if he already got 6 buildings)+1 drone gathering.
In th
|
On August 26 2010 10:14 NightOfTheDead wrote:lol this reminded me of something that actually has A LOT of game influence. this is MUST watch if your interested in this topic
Hahaha
|
On August 26 2010 10:22 VX14 wrote:
banelings cost 150/50 LOL!!!!
You need 1 zergling = 25
You need to upgrade that zergling = 25/25
You need to replace zergling = 25
That's 75/25
BUT WAIT
You need to replace baneling because to use it it must blow up!
So double that!
75/25 * 2 = 150/50 for a baneling!
One baneling has to kill like 4 marines to be worth it lol buff banelings guys!!!!
AHAHAHAHA - nice!
|
United States11390 Posts
Yeah, uh no.
Discussion value of this thread equals 0.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
