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Remember the old Sunken Colony?
Sunken Colony
-Cost: 175 minerals
-Armor: 2
-Damage: 40
Spine Crawler
-Cost 150 minerals
Armor: 2
Damage: 25 +[5 vs Armored]
Blizzard trades mobility for reduced damage, right?
Wrong, mobility is completely worthless because spine crawlers main job is to be a static defense. There really is only one place to defend in most cases, that is your natural expo, and most spine crawlers will only move around that area, if at all. They are so slow anyway that uprooting ( they don't have roots...) takes away sweet macro time.
Let's review Brood War attack mechanisms, Sunkens do 40 damage vs heavy units that is dragoons, vultures, tanks, goliaths, archons, reavers and lurkers. It also did absolute 40 damage against any kind of shield. Yet, PvZ was pretty balanced.
Spine crawlers do 25 dmg to light units, and that makes them better than sunkens in that respect.
But, they lost 10 damage against armored. Given that stalkers are better than goons, crawlers should be better than sunkens.
However, the drawbacks don't really make up for the extra +5 damage.
First of all, in broodwar you could time your sunken wall, if a M&M timing push was coming you could morph all your creep colonies and not be caught off guard. That gave zerg a lot of variety.
It meant that you could fend off an air attack or a ground attack all from one structure.
And because both structures were specialized, they were stronger than cannons!!!
Second, and this is only an assumption. Spine Crawlers seem to attack slower than sunkens.
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I'm not sure what your point is exactly...are you asking for a buff?
I haven't really seen any real isssues regarding the crawler, I don't think it needs fixing. I don't play Z so my opinion could be worthless, however, I do see the mobility used a lot, esp vs P. Sometimes you need to build the crawler in a safe position then bring it up after the initial attack subsides.
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Cannons seems the same
Turrets get ultra-buff, Bunkers can be salvaged
I think the damage should be a little bit more, or at least the attack speed should be faster.
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I like crawlers vs P, but against T it's nearly worthless. Early game they have marauders which just melt the damn things (they have range 6 and crawlers have 7), and siege tanks are obvious.
P zealot/stalker they're okay until he gets immortals and then colossi, then they're worthless again. Colossi just make the things a waste of resources, there's no point.
They suck. Hard. Both P and T got more mobility since SC1 and bases are usually much harder to defend. Open naturals for one, backdoor shit like blistering sands.. etc.
Unfortunately they're a better value than zerg units, so it's neccesary against certain timing pushes. Oh well. Fortunately Zerg can drone harder than SC1 so the cost isn't as severe
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i think they should have +10 vs armored and perhaps have a reduced root time.
original root time was 6 seconds, and is now 12 seconds. Personally i think root time should be 8 or 10 seconds, the nerf was warranted, though i believe it was an overnerf.
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The games are too different. Don't compare them
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The real problem is that there so much more damage in the game. Stimmed marauders can tear down a spine crawler in 2 seconds. Colossus/immortals can snipe a spine in a second. Hydras barely take any damage from cannons.
Bunkers are the best because they scale with your units and because they are free(ish).
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On August 21 2010 14:53 RoieTRS wrote:
The games are too different. Don't compare them
This. While we're at it lets compare Quake 2 deathmatch with Quake 3 deathmatch.
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I believe Sunkens did explosive damage, which would be 40 to large targets, 20 to small targets and 30 to medium targets. Am i right here or am I wrong?
Oh.... and stop comparing the two games. They are similar, but by no means are they anything close to the same.
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I'd expect an attack speed increase for both cannons and spine crawlers sometime in the future. I mean they aren't AWFUL defense structures, but they really stop doing their job after the 5-6 minute.
Remember how fast the sunken used to attack when SC was initially released. Yeah, it was pretty comical. Also, cannons used to do explosive damage, so Blizzard is usually aware of these concerns.
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On August 21 2010 15:08 RavenNevermore wrote:
I believe Sunkens did explosive damage, which would be 40 to large targets, 20 to small targets and 30 to medium targets. Am i right here or am I wrong?
Oh.... and stop comparing the two games. They are similar, but by no means are they anything close to the same.
Yeah sunkens did explosive.
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I'm pretty sure crawlers attack at the same speed as sunkens, if not slightly faster? I remember they even had to nerf the attack speed a little during beta as it was too fast.
Additionally, in this respect, stalkers are NOT stronger than goons. Goons did 20 damage to sunkens, while stalkers only do 14.
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It's not just terran who's defenses have been upgraded, cannons hp 200->300 is huge. Feels like zerg got the shortest straw here, because mobility can rarely be used as much.
I think spines aren't too vulnerable, hp is pretty much fine - counterable with immos but can push stalkers back good enough. Damage often feels very poor though - they feel a lot like tanks that require some dps to back them up, not being as much of killing machines on their own like cannons and pfort are imo. I don't really want them buffed, but T/P static def could be very slightly lowered. I just don't understand why cannons got such big HP upg, since cannon rushing has become so much easier now which shouldn't be wanted scenario. One cannon requiring 4 drones to kill feels too much.
Oh well, guess none of the static def really is too imba in solo. Bunker salvage for 100% cost is a bit too good maybe.
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They should reduce rooting/uprooting time. It's not only bad, it's boring - you rarely ever see crawlers crawling.
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I think that spine crawlers are pretty useless right now. The only thing they deter is hellions. as far as I can tell... that is the only thing they deter.
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If you had to pick would you take a damage increase a attack speed increase or a root time reduction?
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I hate how the Turret got such a huge buff that with a stack of 5-6 mutas you may as well just run away from the Turret.
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My only complaint about the Spines is the 50 second build time and the 12 second burrow. At least Sunken Colonies could be quickly made in response to a counter attack or a big unsuspected push. And yeah, they were much stronger than Spine Crawlers. Spines and Spores are a waste beyond that early part of the game where they don't matter anymore.
Also, the dynamics of Spine Crawlers -vs- Sunken Colonies is completely different. As a Zerg in BW, you were already producing Creep Colonies as part of your economy. There is one very distinct difference from BW and SC2:
Colonies counted as structures. We don't have that anymore in SC2, because tumors aren't structures, nor or Overlords. So, in BW, your opponents were very much obligated to seek and destroy your colonies in order to win. As they pushed forward you had more time to mass your defenses. Likewise, you already had these colonies out on the map and it only took 20 seconds to convert them into sunkens. 20 seconds its all it would take to turn your base into a death trap in a pinch. Now in SC2, if you wanted to do that, you would have to pull all of these drones off the line and make 50 second Spines that will probably never make it because your enemy doesn't have any other obstacles - honestly, they aren't stopping to give a shit about tumors, why would they? - other than your army. Break that and its easy pickens.
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The burrow time is too long it should revert back to the old time. I think it was 6 secs? Also the way it attacks is ridiculously dumb should make it look cooler but idk probably already too late for that right.
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On August 21 2010 15:08 RavenNevermore wrote:
I believe Sunkens did explosive damage, which would be 40 to large targets, 20 to small targets and 30 to medium targets. Am i right here or am I wrong?
Oh.... and stop comparing the two games. They are similar, but by no means are they anything close to the same.
Wow, I completely forgot about this one.
And no, the games are not that different at all. Zerg, specially is exactly the same.
Broodlords are guardians, Corruptors are Devourers, Infestors are defilers.
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EPT
