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United States43952 Posts
On August 14 2010 06:17 FireBlast! wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 06:09 KwarK wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 14 2010 06:06 FireBlast! wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 06:04 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 14 2010 06:03 choboPEon wrote:On August 14 2010 06:01 Fontong wrote:On August 14 2010 05:36 choboPEon wrote:On August 14 2010 05:32 Fontong wrote:
The amount I'm offended by the word 'rape' is zero. If this was about the words 'gay' or 'faggot', or any other derogatory term referring to homosexuality, I would be much more open.
Rape victims are not being oppressed by society like homosexuals are, so let's deal with the bigger issues first, eh? I'm not about to play 'who is worse off' but to say that homosexuals have a monopoly on negative treatment by society is ludicrous. Good thing I didn't say that You did say that you can';t be bothered with rape victims because homosexuals have a much worse situation. Which is ridiculous. Not so much that he can't be bothered, but rather "there are bigger issues that need to be addressed first." wait. what. 1) what other bigger issues 2) who has the say on the prioritisation of these issues 3) what kind of bubble do you live in where rape is not a ubiquitous issue that needs perennial addressing? I'm fairly sure he said that homosexual slurs being used was far more offensive than words that could offend rape victims. He didn't say rape wasn't an issue but rather that there is a huge amount of homophobic language casually used that makes this single issue of the word rape look rather minor. So would you say kwark that the use of homophobic language is an issue that needs to be addressed? And if so you're saying it would require a certain amount of prominent, mainstream use of a word for it to become a sufficient enough political issue?
No, I was merely clarifying his point. My personal view is that if I wish to call someone a faggot (I very much dislike that term) then as long as I'm not doing so because he's gay or because of negative values I associate with homosexuality then I should feel free to do so. It's an insult, just like bitch. It's only a hate word when it's used as a hate word. This is another topic though.
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On August 14 2010 05:50 HeIios wrote:
Sticks and stones etc...
Stop being a victim to a word, freedom to say whatever you want is usually what you americans treasure above all.
The correct version of 'sticks and stones' should be "Stick and stones may break my bones, but words will break my soul". Words actually can hurt, in a physical sense. Brain scans prove this (some google fu here, can't find better keywords for now). I agree that saying the word falls under free speech, and everyone is free do to so. This thread is about being considerate towards a minority out of kindness. Not about banning the word.
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the only way you are gonna get people to stop using the word rape is to come up with something even more harsh, such as by going to the next taboo (which i feel would be a combination of sexual and racist reference)
i have some suggestions but I don't want to be perma-banned.
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i still dont get whats good about offending people, it seems some people insist on their right being free to offend others
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On August 14 2010 06:19 SpicyCrab wrote:
Neo, at least a couple of people have said that they never thought about the issue before and will be more mindful of their use of the word in the future. :/
That's what I said earlier. So my question to you is, why are you continuing to push the subject?
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Yeah, I never really started using the term "rape" until i came to high school and people started using the term like anything. Then I caught onto to using it and its been liek that for 3 years. =\
At first i was really confused as to why the term "rape" was being used, but eventually i just went with the flow and not really thought about it afterwards =/
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Rape has more than one meaning. Stop crying you PoS liberal PC nazi.
User was warned for this post
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On August 14 2010 04:01 KwarK wrote:
Edit: Stealing a way better example made later in the topic. Beat clearly has a negative meaning in domestic violence. Wife beating and physical child abuse are more common than rape and are extremely damaging. That does not mean we should stop using beat as a synonym for win.
Words have meanings. In gaming to rape does not mean to sexually assault the unit or player in question. If anyone was in any way unclear about that then I can see why they might be shocked until the matter was cleared up. But I cannot understand why a word, which at this point is simply a homonym, should be banned because a tiny minority of people associate it with something other than the intended meaning.
In gaming culture rape is not an offensive word. I don't use it but this is almost as bad as people who claim the word niggardly is racist because it sounds kinda like nigger.
I know I'm not really adding anything to this rough and tumble jungle of a thread, but I feel strongly enough about the use of words that I feel compelled to quote this post.
I'm glad KwarK's viewpoint (and mine) was expressed properly as early as the first page of this thread. Newcomers to explosive threads that generate lots of replies never read the entire thread - and why would we expect them to? Normal people don't have that kind of time. Full disclosure: the reply you're reading was posted without the author having read the whole discussion.
I don't know what to say. I'm married and I'm sensitive to women's issues, including sexual violence. But I'm also a wordsmith and a linguist. Because our species can't read minds, all we have are symbol systems to communicate meaning. Call me callous, but I am unmoved by pleas stating that words mean the same thing all the time - they don't.
Yes: Rape victims were physically and psychologically harmed. No, that does not mean that the word "rape" always means the same thing. The same psychological counseling that some rape victims need to recover their senses should also suffice to alert them to the fact that their experience does not extend to everyone, that their use of a word in a language is not special or sacred. It is powerful in their own context. It is not powerful in gaming. It is casual, colorful, expressive. Words need context and ABOVE ALL, they need agreement, in order to communicate meaning.
Agreement. We have to agree on what our symbols mean, or they are meaningless. I'm sorry, but I am not willing to agree that when Day9 says "Argh, these vultures are raping my probes!" it means "real sexual violence is being committed against a real person" or anything else equally silly. If your mind isn't powerful enough to assign meaning with context, then I daresay you need further counseling after the sexual assault you experienced. Our use of language is not a threat or an insult to anyone. It is not a positive framing of violence. It's a metaphor for a video game.
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On August 14 2010 06:20 toadstool wrote:
Oh and the comparison to professional sports casting is ludicrous. If E-sports got sponsored with millions of dollars and was seen on national TV, you're going to see a lot more mature casters lol.
But we (the gaming/SC community) are trying to bring SC/SC2/E-Sports up to a professional level (at least in the West), are we not?
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I sure hope, and I mean this sincerely, that this at least helps some people change and grow out of their childish use of the english language.
Rape is not a word that would be appropriate for a dinner conversation or at a business meeting. I sure hope one day gamers can hold themselves to a higher standard of conversation but I doubt it after reading through 18 pages of idiots.
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On August 14 2010 06:21 BillClinton wrote:
i still dont get whats good about offending people, it seems some people insist on their right being free to offend others
You offend me by saying that. Plz dont post anymore mkay!
User was temp banned for this post.
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agree with the OP! - I was kind of shocked the first time i read the word. I got accustomed to people using it, but I think it is a bad thing to do.
Reason why I write:
Some say its ignorance to be offended by the word - apparently meaning people were obliged to identify that the very specific gaming vocabularies meaning is used, but the general understanding.
As long as you use the word in game and with your gaming friends - I dont see a big issue. These people usally know there is a specific gaming language. Its far fetched to expect everyone to know this. YOU as the gamer know when you enter a place where your "gaming vocab" will be missunderstood. Thus it is YOUR resposibility to take care people understand your meaning - not theirs to understand your very specific one.
I agree, if you think someone entering a LAN might be ignorant to get up to wall by the language there. He is the guest of the community and should be able to identify there is a specific language and specific rules. BUT a gamer using the word in public expecting people to not understand the most obvious meaning is in my eyes ignorant.
A grown-up should be able to realize this. Using a usually very sensitive word in public and expecting public to recon its gaming roots is bold.
I am more relaxed to the usage within the community, but some examples from this thread ("raped" on an exam paper") show me that some people are not able to distinguish between the acceptable and non-acceptable use - which rises concerns about our communities public image.
Finally I personally feel the word should not be used as it is glorifying a perverse act even in gaming context.
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No, I was merely clarifying his point. My personal view is that if I wish to call someone a faggot (I very much dislike that term) then as long as I'm not doing so because he's gay or because of negative values I associate with homosexuality then I should feel free to do so. It's an insult, just like bitch. It's only a hate word when it's used as a hate word. This is another topic though.
It is easy to fall into the trap of thinking 'my intentions' clear me of any wrongdoing. Since you are not against gay practices and you are not intending to express homophobia you think that thus using the terms would not be harmful. But there are unintended consequences and in the very least using the word 'faggot' negatively all the time, at the very least it reinforced a negative connotation.
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On August 14 2010 06:17 neohero9 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 06:15 Roe wrote:On August 14 2010 05:56 neohero9 wrote:
That is an example of hyperbole. The hellions are not actually raping zerglings in the ass. They are simply killing zerglings in a game.
Then why not simply say that...? people love sensationalism and emotionalism. hyperbole is the means to that end. you'll notice this happens in a fair amount of the time in day to day living if you keep an eye out for it. And thus the sloppiness of our language is not only continued, but embraced and celebrated. It's amazing how much smoother communication becomes when one is deliberate about the words they choose to use.
It's not sloppiness of language, it's part of our culture. Hyperbole and quick words has been part of digital media and society for the past century or so?
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On August 14 2010 06:21 BillClinton wrote:
i still dont get whats good about offending people, it seems some people insist on their right being free to offend others
inb4 weakly relevant misquote of Voltaire.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 14 2010 06:21 BillClinton wrote:
i still dont get whats good about offending people, it seems some people insist on their right being free to offend others
This is not the argument being discussed.
The point is everything you say could possibly offend someone and rather than having a dictionary that is 40% blacked out. We could all just use the power of our mind to let it roll off and understand that what is being said is just common language.
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On August 14 2010 06:17 neohero9 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 06:15 Roe wrote:On August 14 2010 05:56 neohero9 wrote:
That is an example of hyperbole. The hellions are not actually raping zerglings in the ass. They are simply killing zerglings in a game.
Then why not simply say that...? people love sensationalism and emotionalism. hyperbole is the means to that end. you'll notice this happens in a fair amount of the time in day to day living if you keep an eye out for it. And thus the sloppiness of our language is not only continued, but embraced and celebrated. It's amazing how much smoother communication becomes when one is deliberate about the words they choose to use.
I see no negatives from removing this term from the "pro" scene of casters. I think it is a step in NOT alienating potential fans. We, as gamers, are already fighting enough stereotypes. Let's not add to the problem.
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On August 14 2010 06:20 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 06:14 HeIios wrote:On August 14 2010 06:12 keV. wrote:On August 14 2010 06:11 HeIios wrote:On August 14 2010 06:06 keV. wrote:On August 14 2010 06:00 choboPEon wrote:On August 14 2010 05:59 DaCruise wrote:On August 14 2010 05:56 choboPEon wrote:On August 14 2010 05:53 ShinyGerbil wrote:On August 14 2010 05:46 choboPEon wrote:
[quote]
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that? Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance. I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words. Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters. You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry. You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry. Read this: rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com
late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883. So as you can see, rape means to take something by force. [edit] Not always sexual, is my point. Yes, I'm agreeing with you... I meant to continue your conversation, I just thought it would fit in when we were talking about history fo words. Ah, OK, that makes sense! Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 06:12 fly.stat wrote:On August 14 2010 06:11 HeIios wrote:On August 14 2010 06:06 keV. wrote:On August 14 2010 06:00 choboPEon wrote:On August 14 2010 05:59 DaCruise wrote:On August 14 2010 05:56 choboPEon wrote:On August 14 2010 05:53 ShinyGerbil wrote:On August 14 2010 05:46 choboPEon wrote:On August 14 2010 05:43 ShinyGerbil wrote:
No, I won't stop saying rape. I won't say "are you retarded" in front of my disabled friends, I won't say "that faggot dt dropped me" in front of my gay friends, I won't say "stupid nigger" in front of my black friends, and I won't say "damn i got jewed" in front of my jewish friends. And I probably won't say rape in front of you OP, because you are sensitive about it (regardless of whether you are a victim or not). But that gives me no reason to stop saying it in general. This is the ideal trade off. This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that? Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance. I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words. Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters. You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry. You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry. Read this: rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com
late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883. So as you can see, rape means to take something by force. Read this: "I was raped." So as you can see, that person's body was taken by force. So like... captured? Or kidnapped? I'm still missing the part about sexual intercourse.
Name one person in our lifetimes who has said "I was raped" and meant I was kidnapped or captured and meant 0 about sexual abuse. Cmon :[
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On August 14 2010 06:14 hp.Shell wrote:
I agree entirely with the OP. "Rape" can be an offensive word to /people/people who know people/people who think about people/ who have been raped or severely traumatized, including torture victims, domestic violence victims, et al.
Now, though, I'd like to share an equally important word(s) that should be thrown out of the vocabulary when speaking in most contexts. Please note I do not intend to offend anyone, nor am I implying that taking the word "rape" out of the language of gamer culture isn't important.
The word is "god." I am a spiritual person, and I believe in a One Supreme Being I'll call the Creator. However, if you're talking about "god," you should not use that word. You should use something like "creator" instead. The reason for this is that the word "god" implies a certain kind of ownership by a human or otherwise lesser being than the creator. If you think about your idea of "god," that is showing disrespect to the creator. You should instead think about THE creator, and not "your god." When you talk about pagan gods or the Christian god or the Muslim god, etc, the word "god" is used as a word that means "THEIR version of THE creator."
This implication of "ownership" of the creator, while convenient to use in vernacular, might be alarming to some of you non-atheists when you first recognize this possibility. I am currently trying to take the word "god" out of my vocabulary and replace it with "creator" or "the one eternal source" or something similar.
This is also the reason why I'm shaky on the whole "gay marriage" debate. Now, I support gay marriage in the legal sense, because I believe the more equal we are written into our laws the better, but you have to look at the very definition of "marriage" to understand that "gay marriage" is a paradox. The word "marriage" is a biblical term, and we all know what orthodox conservatives think about gay marriage. It's like saying "same-sex heterosexual spiritual union." The very word "marriage," due to it originating from the bible which is allegedly against gay marriage, discriminates against gays.
There are other words that have more meaning than you may like to give them, including "enormous," which, in addition to "very big," also means "wicked" or "evil." So if you see a holy angel one day and it is very big, do not call it "enormous," for you would be attributing more to it than you actually mean.
Sorry to ramble, but if you're spiritual/religious you may find that your life improves when you stop implying ownership of the very being that created you, the universe, and everything. Once, again, I'm not trying to offend people or spark debate. My major point is that there are words like this everywhere that have lost their full meaning because they are thrown around so carelessly in modern times.
I'm an atheist but I thought that Christians believed that God owned them? I don't think creator is a good word because people will think you are a creationist and probably think less of you. Marriage doesn't have to be religious. When I get married it will not be in a church, and we have this lovely thing called separation of church and state, so I think when talking about Gay marriage, you should use the secular definition of marriage and not a biblical one. The same book in the Bible also says that you can't eat shellfish, etc. It can't be taken literally.
P.S. I know we shouldn't be talking about this on TL, but since he brought these things up I feel obligated to respond. I really hate to see religion get in the way of rational thought 
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On August 14 2010 06:29 choboPEon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2010 06:20 keV. wrote:On August 14 2010 06:14 HeIios wrote:On August 14 2010 06:12 keV. wrote:On August 14 2010 06:11 HeIios wrote:On August 14 2010 06:06 keV. wrote:On August 14 2010 06:00 choboPEon wrote:On August 14 2010 05:59 DaCruise wrote:On August 14 2010 05:56 choboPEon wrote:On August 14 2010 05:53 ShinyGerbil wrote:
[quote]
Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance. I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words. Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters. You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry. You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry. Read this: rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com
late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883. So as you can see, rape means to take something by force. [edit] Not always sexual, is my point. Yes, I'm agreeing with you... I meant to continue your conversation, I just thought it would fit in when we were talking about history fo words. Ah, OK, that makes sense! On August 14 2010 06:12 fly.stat wrote:On August 14 2010 06:11 HeIios wrote:On August 14 2010 06:06 keV. wrote:On August 14 2010 06:00 choboPEon wrote:On August 14 2010 05:59 DaCruise wrote:On August 14 2010 05:56 choboPEon wrote:On August 14 2010 05:53 ShinyGerbil wrote:On August 14 2010 05:46 choboPEon wrote:
[quote]
This is a surprisingly calm and articulate way to imply that, when your black friends aren't around, you use the word nigger regularly. Did I misinterpret that? Potentially. Regardless of how regularly I use the word, I try not to make people feel bad, but I also try not to go out of my way to hold things back. Balance. I'll give you credit for at least honest about your use of the words. Words in themselves are harmless. Its the way they are told, and the situation they are told in that matters. You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word nigger just because you want to. Sorry. You don't get to remove the meaning and history of the word rape just because you want to. Sorry. Read this: rape (v.) Look up rape at Dictionary.com
late 14c., "seize prey, take by force," from Anglo-Fr. raper "to seize, abduct," a legal term, probably from L. rapere "seize, carry off by force, abduct" (see rapid). Latin rapere was used for "sexual violation," but only very rarely; the usual Latin word being stuprum, lit. "disgrace." Sense of "sexual violation or ravishing of a woman" first recorded in English as a noun, late 15c. (the noun sense of "taking anything -- including a woman -- away by force" is from c.1400). The verb in this sense is from 1570s. Related: Raped; raping. Uncertain connection to Low Ger. and Du. rapen in the same sense. Rapist is from 1883. So as you can see, rape means to take something by force. Read this: "I was raped." So as you can see, that person's body was taken by force. So like... captured? Or kidnapped? I'm still missing the part about sexual intercourse. Name one person in our lifetimes who has said "I was raped" and meant I was kidnapped or captured and meant 0 about sexual abuse. Cmon :[
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