• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 10:29
CEST 16:29
KST 23:29
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent9Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off7[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Runway132v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature4
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues16LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments2Weekly Cups (August 25-31): Clem's Last Straw?39Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax6Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris75
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time SpeCial on The Tasteless Podcast Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy What happened to Singapore/Brazil servers?
Tourneys
WardiTV Mondays Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around Mutation # 487 Think Fast
Brood War
General
The Korean Terminology Thread [ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent FlaSh on ACS Winners being in ASL ASL20 General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro16 Group B [ASL20] Ro16 Group A BWCL Season 63 Announcement [IPSL] ISPL Season 1 Winter Qualis and Info!
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale
Blogs
Collective Intelligence: Tea…
TrAiDoS
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
INDEPENDIENTE LA CTM
XenOsky
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1161 users

Why Starcraft is just like Magic: The Gathering

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 Next All
accaris
Profile Joined May 2010
98 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-02 02:07:23
June 02 2010 01:59 GMT
#1
Hey folks, this is my first article related to Starcraft, but it's kind of unique, so if the Starcraft 2 forum isn't the appropriate place for it, feel free to move it!

Introduction

After much consideration, I've decided that Starcraft (and Starcraft 2) are extremely similar to Magic: The Gathering. The two games share many of the different concepts for strategy, mechanics, and the metagame. If you've never played Magic: The Gathering, you might not get too much out of this article, although it's possible that it will provide you with some some insight into essential concepts from both games. Did Blizzard copy ideas from MTG and inject them into the framework for Starcraft? Somehow I doubt it, but in my mind, the similarities are extensive.

Metagame concepts: Johnny, Timmy, and Spike

Back in the early 2000s, Wizards of the Coast invented three archetypes to describe types of players in Magic: The Gathering. The original article describes Johnny, Timmy, and Spike, three different personalities with their own unique play styles. Ironically, I find these archetypes to also perfectly describe Starcraft players. http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr11b

Johnny: Johnny is the "combo" or creative player. This player has decided that the game is a form of self-expression where he can display brilliant knowledge of otherwise little-understood game mechanics. Johnny is almost always innovative, uncovering quirky, overlooked interactions between cards (in Starcraft, interactions between units) that result in mind-blowing wins. He doesn't always win, but when he does, it's usually in a totally unexpected and hard-to-counter way. Additionally, the most unique "cheese" strategies probably fall under Johnny. In professional MTG circles, Asian pro-gamers tend to be predominantly Johnnies, although that's not a hard and fast rule. Incidentally, the same thing applies to Starcraft.

Timmy: Timmy is the power gamer. He plays to have fun, and whether he wins or loses, he always chooses the biggest and flashiest plays over the most strategic ones. Timmy likes to play big: huge armies, huge creatures, and powerful "junk" plays that take forever to set up, but are overwhelming once they get online. In Starcraft, Timmy likes to turtle, he likes to macro to 200/200, and he almost always favors 4v4 over 1v1. Broodwars players remember those huge control groups of Carriers that newbies loved to send out: a purely Timmy move. But don't get the wrong idea. Timmy isn't a total noob, in fact, just the opposite; he understands the macro game perfectly, but he wants to have the most fun possible with the game.

Spike: Spike plays to win, plain and simple. He will always choose the most powerful strategy in the metagame; in MTG, Spike always had that insane $500 deck that steamrolled the local tournament every week. He copied it off the Internet, and he doesn't care about innovating: if it wins, it works. Sometimes Spike can be an asshole about winning, playing mind games with his opponent that fall just short of cheating. But Spike can also be like a martial arts guru: very few people can beat him, but he's a quiet guy, at peace with his superiority. He visits blogs, strategy sites, watches videos, and playtests constantly. In the pro-gaming scene, the Starcraft community (and the MTG community) is full of Spikes.

Mechanical Concepts

Color = Race: Magic: The Gathering is defined by its 5 colors. Each color represents not only an element, but a personality and archetype. Red is the color of scorching fire, unforgiving fury, and might-makes-right; White is the color of zealous justice, but also peace and holiness; Blue is the color of the mind and pursuit of knowledge, but also politics and trickery; Black is the color of ambition and ruthlessness, as well as corruption and decay; Green is the color of verdant growth, animal instinct, and primal wilderness. Although Starcraft only has 3 races, I would imagine that each one can be represented by a color combination from Magic. The Zerg would be Black/Red/Green, for example.

Life Total = Buildings: The ultimate goal of a game of Magic is to play cards that reduce your opponent's life total from 20 to 0, thus winning you the game. (There are other more obscure methods of winning, such as locking down the game to the point where your opponent just quits, but for the sake of comparison, we'll stick to the life total.) In Starcraft, pretend that your number of buildings is equal to your life total. When you hit 0, you lose. So you have to do everything possible to prevent your opponent from hitting your buildings, and that usually means blowing up his stuff, denying his economy, or blocking his attacks in some way. You can also just build more buildings, which is the equivalent of gaining more life in Magic, but if you have no method of protecting yourself, it only delays the inevitable.

Creatures = Units: This comparison should be obvious. In MTG, you attack your opponent with creatures, and that's the predominant way of winning the game. In Starcraft, you attack with units. Many creatures have special abilities that go beyond simply dealing damage, like Flying or Regeneration; the same can be said of units in Starcraft.

Lands = Workers: In order to play cards in Magic: The Gathering, you need Lands. Each color has its own land that produces "mana" (or resources) that can be spent on playing cards. In Magic, a land is an actual, physical card, and it can be destroyed or removed from the game just like anything else. If you remove your opponent's lands, you're probably going to win the game, because he won't be able to do anything. (He's often described as "land screwed" or "mana screwed.") In Starcraft, your workers are like lands in Magic. Sure, they're plentiful, and having more of them is generally better, but if you spend too much time getting workers and not enough time getting anything else, you're going to get overrun.

Mana = Minerals/Gas: As previously mentioned, in Magic: The Gathering, lands produce mana, which is the resource that you spend to play creatures and other cards. Mana is an abstract concept; there's nothing in-game that actually represents mana, and so it isn't something that can be attacked or destroyed on a regular basis. Similarly, in Starcraft, minerals and gas are your currency resources, produced by workers who mine for you. They're represented by a counter in the upper right corner of the screen; minerals and gas are very important, but there's nothing your opponent can do to take them away from you. (For simplicity's sake, ignore the fact that in Magic, mana goes away if you don't spend it on anything.)

Turns = Supply: In a general sense, turns in MTG are merely a way of keeping track of who performs what action, and in what order. As a result, turns are like a timeline of events, by which we can determine things that happened (or should have happened) during the game. You can say, "on turn 6 I played this huge creature, and then I won the game by turn 8." Starcraft gives us the concept of supply, which on an abstract level is very similar to taking turns in a card game. You can't accomplish very much if it isn't your turn. Likewise, if you haven't reached a specific amount of supply, you're "supply blocked" and have to wait until you get more. Players in Starcraft tend to keep track of game time and events in terms of supply, just like with turns in Magic: "at 13 supply I built a hatchery; at 28 supply I pushed out to scout a little bit."

Card Advantage = Macro: In pro Magic: The Gathering circles, a particular term called "card advantage" has become popular. Basically, card advantage is simply the mechanical aspect of having more stuff (more cards) than your opponent and thus, in a favorable position to win the game regardless of what else is going on. There are many different ways to gain card advantage: there are cards that simply draw you more cards, for example. But there are also effects commonly referred to as "2-for-1," where you get two or more benefits out of a single investment. Card advantage is almost identical to the Starcraft concept of macro, or simply making sure that you have more stuff than your opponent at any given time. Note that this advantage doesn't guarantee you a win, but it definitely helps. (Note that in Starcraft, destroying a full dropship, or blowing up a Lair, would be considered a solid "2-for-1.")

Strategic Concepts

Decklist = Build: In MTG, obviously it's impossible to play without a deck. The deck represents on paper your entire strategy for winning, and it contains all the tools necessary to do so. But a deck doesn't do anything by itself; it has to be played, and executed correctly in order to succeed, and you have to be in the right state of mind. In Starcraft, a build isn't to be confused with a build order: the build itself, like the decklist in Magic, is simply your formula, your foundation for winning. You start with an overall idea, and then create a specific order for executing it.

Mana Curve = Build Order: All non-land cards in MTG have a cost, a "mana cost," in order to be played. A good deckbuilder designs his decklist with a specific timing for which cards are meant to be played, based on the amount of resources he predicts will be available. In Magic, a player knows what he wants to do on every turn, and he knows on approximately which turn he wants to make his game-winning move; if his timing fails, he usually loses. Starcraft follows the same principle with the Build Order. A Starcraft player has a specific plan on what he wants to do on 8 supply, 12 supply, 20 supply, and so on; his gameplay progression follows a natural curve that climbs, peaks, and descends logically. (In MTG, a player's intended mana curve can be thrown off by bad luck, whereas Starcraft depends less on luck and more on reaction time; but the concept is the same.)

The Stack = Micro: "The Stack" is one of the most complicated things to understand for someone who doesn't play magic. Basically, whenever you play a "spell" (a non-land card) in Magic, your opponent has a chance to "respond" with his own spell (there's more to it than that, but that's the basic gist of it.) The opponent's spell "stacks" on top of yours, and everything on top of the stack happens first. This is very similar to the concept of unit micro in Starcraft, in that you have to essentially micro-manage responses to your opponent's plays until there's nothing left for you to do; you've either stopped his advance with your own micro, or you retreat. This balance of plays and responses is an essential part of strategy in MTG, and part of what makes the game so complex, due to the many possible interactions between cards. Similarly, the unit-to-unit responses and counters in Starcraft make it stand out against most other RTS games.

Alpha Strike = All-In: Whenever you've gathered enough forces in Magic, backed up by card advantage, you typically unleash what players call an Alpha Strike. This strike is meant to be a game-winning attack that is extremely difficult for your opponent to counter, at least without irreparable losses to his own forces. Much like an "all-in" in Starcraft, if the attack fails for whatever reason, you're often left with very little on the field and your opponent can easily mop up.

If you have any other ideas, feel free to add them!
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-02 02:02:11
June 02 2010 02:00 GMT
#2
Nice post. I agree. I remember when Beta first came out I immediatly compared chronoboost (than super overpowered) to skull clamp*.


And Mark Rosewater is my personal hero for the record. Even if he did destroy Magic*.






*Mirridon was awesome :p
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
AlecPyron
Profile Joined May 2010
United States131 Posts
June 02 2010 02:11 GMT
#3
Interesting read. To bad I could make an analogy of how Blizzard should be more like WoTC with their relation with progaming.

What would be the sideboarding?

The Novice version of the maps are like those Portal sets.

Actually some Blizzard employees and key members are avid MTG players, so I wouldn't be surprised if they used some of the MTG framework to design their games.
seRapH
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9760 Posts
June 02 2010 02:14 GMT
#4
so basically magic the gathering is similar to every rts on the planet? i dont think any of the concepts are exclusive to starcraft, and i'm sure there are many games that harbor all of them.
boomer hands
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-02 02:16:37
June 02 2010 02:14 GMT
#5
On June 02 2010 11:11 AlecPyron wrote:
What would be the sideboarding?

Sideboarding is hard to draw an analogy to, because you're not required to play the same build all 3/5 games of a Bo3/Bo5. Sideboarding exists because of the fact that competitive play requires you to play the same deck in a Bo3/Bo5, so that matches don't turn into rock/paper/scissors.
Moderator
Bob300
Profile Joined April 2010
United States505 Posts
June 02 2010 02:16 GMT
#6
I don't play MTG but i can see the resemblance that you say, good read.
NYC Suburbs --- College Freshman --- Season 1 - Drone Whiskey
Salv
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Canada3083 Posts
June 02 2010 02:20 GMT
#7
Haha, nice read. I am an avid Magic: Online player, as is Ahzz. I introduced him to the game with the sell that is was as deep as Brood War and was a similarly strategic game (actually, I said it was even deeper and more strategic than Brood War!). It's a great game, if you like Starcraft, you will like MTG.
Jonanin
Profile Joined April 2010
United States23 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-02 02:21:59
June 02 2010 02:21 GMT
#8
Wow, brilliant post. Being an MTG fanatic, I definitely saw the similarities, but this post went further into the details. Great read.
asdf
epik640x
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1134 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-02 02:27:50
June 02 2010 02:27 GMT
#9
Just got back into Starcraft cause of SC2 Beta and into Magic as well since all my SC friends used to play Magic as well. So much nostalgia. And Diablo III is on the way too lol. Now we just need Counter-strike 2.
metasonic
Profile Joined April 2010
United States115 Posts
June 02 2010 02:27 GMT
#10
This was fun to read. I played Magic for the first time in many many years a couple of weeks ago at a booster draft with a couple of friends (we wanted to reminisce in nerdyness). Of course we got destroyed by the regulars who knew the set and all the new rules that had been added since we last played, but it was a lot of fun.

The only thing that stops me from really getting into MTG is that I really don't like the way that whoever spends the most money on cards is going to have an advantage when making a deck. It kind of kills the competitive spirit for me. That's why if I do play I like booster drafts, although those involve a good deal of luck as well. How is MTG online for those who play? Does it take out that $$ factor?

On topic, I definitely see the resemblance to SC in MTG, but I also feel that any well-crafted game would share many of these attributes and similarities.
hellokitty[hk]
Profile Joined June 2009
United States1309 Posts
June 02 2010 02:28 GMT
#11
Those are the most general statements ever.
People are imbeciles, lucky thing god made cats.
Flameberger
Profile Joined March 2010
United States226 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-02 02:33:17
June 02 2010 02:32 GMT
#12
One connection you could make is in Magic one of the basic strategic concepts is that if you attack with a creature you can't defend with it after (generally). In sc if you take your whole army and charge the enemy base your not going to be able to defend attacks at your own base.

Also a cards summoning sickness (not being able to attack the turn they come out, but they can defend) is like rush distance. Proxying is like giving your units haste.
An engine of annihilating power.
ccdnl
Profile Joined April 2010
United States611 Posts
June 02 2010 02:42 GMT
#13
I had more fun playing MTG than SC2 so far.

MY RED/WHITE ENCHANTMENT BURN DECK!!!!
And my sexy Blue-make you lose your deck Deck. Oh I miss MTG
civil cervixes || Kang Min Fan || I like TLO, TLO= German, I like Germans..?
fabiano
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Brazil4644 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-02 02:45:38
June 02 2010 02:44 GMT
#14
lol

i remember those magic days:

me: tap 3 forest and 2 plains, summon some 5/4 beast.
friend: counterspell.
me: motherfucker, tap 2 forests, 1 plain and summon some 3/2 beast.
friend: counterspell.
me: what a fag... tap 1 motherfucking forest and 1 plain to summon this beast shit
friend: counterspell.
"When the geyser died, a probe came out" - SirJolt
Nal_rAwr
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2611 Posts
June 02 2010 02:46 GMT
#15
mana rush = fastest map perfected
Nony is Bonjwa
Megalisk
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States6095 Posts
June 02 2010 02:46 GMT
#16
Oh the nostalgia..it hurts >.<
Tear stained american saints and dirty guitar dreams across a universe of desert and blue sky , gas station coffee love letters and two dollar pistol kisses from thirty five dollar hotel room stationary .
Mykill
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada3402 Posts
June 02 2010 02:46 GMT
#17
what? ><
i dont play magic
[~~The Impossible Leads To Invention~~] CJ Entusman #52 The problem with internet quotations is that they are hard to verify -Abraham Lincoln c.1863
baytripper
Profile Joined May 2010
United States170 Posts
June 02 2010 02:51 GMT
#18
well, i totally agree with your points, and i think there's a reason that there's so much interchange between the magic, texas hold em, and starcraft scenes, because they rely on very similar resource management concepts, and i think my magic background definitely made me much better at optimizing starcraft builds.

but i think you're missing a key part of your article, which is "why does this comparison help us play starcraft better?" simply making an analogy doesn't accomplish anything if you don't have a point. really the only thing you are suggesting is "play more strategy games if you want to be better at one", which is valid, but is also something that people probably aren't going to do unless they were already interested.
seRapH
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9760 Posts
June 02 2010 02:52 GMT
#19
On June 02 2010 11:44 fabiano wrote:
lol

i remember those magic days:

me: tap 3 forest and 2 plains, summon some 5/4 beast.
friend: counterspell.
me: motherfucker, tap 2 forests, 1 plain and summon some 3/2 beast.
friend: counterspell.
me: what a fag... tap 1 motherfucking forest and 1 plain to summon this beast shit
friend: counterspell.


and thats when limited bans came in
boomer hands
dcttr66
Profile Joined October 2003
United States555 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-02 03:08:29
June 02 2010 02:53 GMT
#20
i disagree. i'm not a johnny, timmy, or spike. maybe that's why i quit playing mtg.

at any rate, did you know that there are a few ums games made for starcraft based on mtg?
1 2 3 4 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Kung Fu Cup
12:00
SC:EVO Monthly
TaeJa vs Classic
Creator vs SHIN
Rogue vs MaxPax
SteadfastSC430
IndyStarCraft 149
IntoTheiNu 18
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SteadfastSC 430
IndyStarCraft 149
Codebar 12
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 7006
Rain 3510
BeSt 2991
Flash 2986
Shuttle 1226
EffOrt 819
Mini 771
firebathero 556
sSak 356
Larva 345
[ Show more ]
actioN 290
Hyuk 246
Snow 181
ggaemo 136
JYJ123
Pusan 119
Leta 104
Killer 103
hero 90
Mind 83
TY 64
Sea.KH 58
Hyun 48
ToSsGirL 47
PianO 42
Soma 35
Aegong 33
Sharp 29
Movie 23
soO 20
Sacsri 18
Terrorterran 17
scan(afreeca) 17
sas.Sziky 16
yabsab 11
Shine 9
HiyA 7
Light 0
Dota 2
Gorgc6613
qojqva4317
Dendi1810
resolut1ontv 323
XcaliburYe198
Counter-Strike
oskar132
Other Games
singsing1912
B2W.Neo1013
hiko933
Lowko316
byalli165
ToD73
ArmadaUGS57
QueenE33
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick691
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH101
• iHatsuTV 2
• poizon28 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV543
League of Legends
• Nemesis7459
• TFBlade462
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Monday
9h 31m
Kung Fu Cup
21h 31m
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
OSC
1d 1h
OSC
1d 9h
RSL Revival
1d 19h
Cure vs SHIN
Reynor vs Zoun
Kung Fu Cup
1d 21h
The PondCast
1d 22h
RSL Revival
2 days
Classic vs TriGGeR
ByuN vs Maru
Online Event
2 days
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
[ Show More ]
BSL Team Wars
3 days
Team Bonyth vs Team Dewalt
BSL Team Wars
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Maestros of the Game
3 days
ShoWTimE vs Classic
Clem vs herO
Serral vs Bunny
Reynor vs Zoun
Cosmonarchy
4 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
[BSL 2025] Weekly
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Maestros of the Game
5 days
BSL Team Wars
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Snow vs Sharp
Jaedong vs Mini
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
Light vs Speed
Larva vs Soma
Liquipedia Results

Completed

SEL Season 2 Championship

Ongoing

RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.