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Note: As the last thread was closed, i started a new one
According to lastest news: CNN BBC, the south-korean ship sank due to close range underwater explosion, most probably torpedo.
South Korea has not ruled out a theory that North Korea was involved.
But Seoul has avoided directly blaming North Korea, which sloughed off allegations it is responsible.
Apparently everyone "knows" it was North korea, but they are too afraid to do something about it (no shame on them, nobody wants escalation of the conflict).
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If bush was still in power, he would have plunged everyone into world war 3 over this.
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On April 25 2010 18:12 Cain0 wrote:
If bush was still in power, he would have plunged everyone into world war 3 over this.
seriously??
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so other than the possibility that it was NK, what else could be the cause of the explosion? Is there a chance that this explosion didn't come through flagrant means?
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On April 25 2010 18:15 BlueRoyaL wrote:
so other than the possibility that it was NK, what else could be the cause of the explosion? Is there a chance that this explosion didn't come through flagrant means?
Some people are speculating it could be some type of a mine that's been left there.
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On April 25 2010 18:12 Cain0 wrote:
If bush was still in power, he would have plunged everyone into world war 3 over this.
Ok man. Bush bad. Got it.
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United States13896 Posts
Yeah my first instinct would say it would be a naval mine rather than some direct aggression from North Korea. Either way its bad news regardless as far as SK/NK relations go.
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Gulf of Tonkin was very likely a false flag charade staged to justify an aggressive invasion of N..Vietnam.
Do not jump to conclusions or blame.
"What experience and history teach is this: that people and governments never have learned anything from history, or acted on principles deduced from it." GWF Hegel
It is surely possible that this was an American S.Korean planted defensive mine. One, convenient way to explain the friendly fire would be to blame N.Korea.
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There were rumors about NK training on using manned torpedo's. Maybe they brought it in practices. But wouldnt a torpedo leave clear marks and maybe even material inscie the schip ?
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So far they're just saying the blast is equivalent to what they'd expect from a torpedo the size of which NK uses.
I don't know how accurate a read they can get on that, nor how that compares to a mine. Music shows have been almost entirely cancelled for 5 of the last 6 weeks due to the naval incident, as well as a number of the popular variety shows. I'd wager S. Koreans are keenly aware of everything that's going on, but the "experts" don't expect any retaliation by SK. I honestly don't know if it'll have that much of an impact, given how tense relations already are.
Either way, leave the Bush bashing in 2008.
Wasn't there a korean paper that sourced a NK military official saying that the attack was indeed done by a NK submarine? (at least I read a Japanese newspaper article that supposedly sourced a korean source...)
Well, there's a BBC or similar article floating around saying that's the case, but mostly because of how they're interpreting the blast. (Explosion size supposedly = to the yield of NK's torpedos.)
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lol southkorea is doomed anyway .... nk got so much artillery ... soul would be wiped out in less then 10 minutes -.-
just a matter of time ...
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On April 25 2010 19:20 opFa wrote:
lol southkorea is doomed anyway .... nk got so much artillery ... soul would be wiped out in less then 10 minutes -.-
just a matter of time ...
Every major city would be destroyed, yes, but the same would be the case in NK. NK has more "stuff," but SK still has enough pointed at NK to turn both countries 3rd world.
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yeah but since obama is a pussy imo nobody is gonna get involved -.- and think about it ... what has nk got to loose ... they are threatening the world ever 2-4 years with their nuke programm anyway and try to get some money like this
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
there was a great article on WSJ about the really dire political situation revolving around NK. It has to do with the government's long standing claim that 2011 (iirc?) would be the year NK would prosper and return to its rightful place among the world powers... or something like that.
Of course, the citizens of the country know how good life is in SK, and are beginning to see through the smoke curtain the NK government has been putting up.
North Korea on the Edge
If the regime collapses, will the rest of the world be ready?
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By B.R. MYERS
KCNA/Reuters
North Korea's Kim Jong Il, in front row center, participates in a Pyongyang memorial last July marking the 15th anniversary of his father's death (the picture is from North Korea's state-run news agency).
Kim Jong Il may be increasingly wizened and frail, with fingernails white from kidney disease, but his propaganda apparatus is as vigorous as ever. On a current wall poster a worker gestures toward the slogan, "A strong and prosperous nation is coming into view!" In the background, fireworks explode over brightly-lit buildings, a pile of rice and potatoes, three-spanking new missiles, and a bulldozer.
To North Koreans the weaponry must be the only part of the picture that doesn't look ridiculously optimistic. United Nations sanctions continue to take their toll on imports and exports alike. By most accounts, last autumn's currency reform did nothing but worsen an already rampant inflation. Over half the factories in the country remain idle. The food shortage is worsening; there are accounts of starvation even in major urban centers like Pyongyang.
As for tensions with the south, they rose again Friday with the sinking of a South Korean naval ship near a disputed maritime border with North Korea, although it wasn't immediately clear what had caused the sinking or if North Korean vessels were involved.
The latest incident comes days after a conference in which some experts described the Kim dictatorship as being in the first stage of collapse. Americans should be paying attention: If North Korea decides to go out in a blaze of nuclear glory—and its current penchant for kamikaze rhetoric suggests it might—the enormous number of casualties would likely include many of the U.S. troops stationed on the peninsula. But even a less-apocalyptic form of collapse could destabilize the entire region. Those South Korean experts might be wrong in their predictions, but the regime seems increasingly unlikely to last out the decade, even if the planned hand-off of power to the Dear Leader's son Kim Jong Eun goes off without a hitch.
The economy is only part of the problem. North Koreans endured far worse deprivation during the 1990s famine without flagging in their support for the regime. This brings us back to that wall poster, and to the regime's real crisis, which is more ideological in nature than economic.
The information cordon that once encircled North Korea is in tatters. Police in the northern provinces try in vain to crack down on the use of Chinese cellphones; citizens circumvent tracking devices by making brief calls from mountains and forests—sometimes to defectors as far away as the U.S. In provinces along the demilitarized zone, many citizens watch South Korean television. Even in Pyongyang, people listen to BBC or Voice of America radio, or view online news surreptitiously at companies with Internet access.
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China Span
A government poster of Kim Jong Il and his father Kim Il Sung.
What the masses are learning is incompatible with their decades-old sense of a sacred racial mission. They have known since the 1990s that their living standard is much lower than South Korea's. The gap was explained away with reference to the sacrifices needed to build up the military. What the North Koreans are only now realizing, however—and this is more important—is that their brethren in the "Yankee colony" have no desire to live under Kim Jong Il. In 2007, after all, they elected the pro-American candidate to the South Korean presidency. Why, then, should the northerners go on sacrificing in order to liberate people who don't want to be liberated? Unable to answer this question, the regime in desperation has resorted to the most reckless propaganda campaign in its history.
This "strong and prosperous country" campaign is nothing less than an effort to persuade the masses that economic life will change drastically by 2012, the 100th anniversary of the birth of Great Leader Kim Il Sung, the father of Kim Jong Il. The official media have dubbed 2010 a "year of radical transformation" that will "open the gate to a thriving nation without fail in 2012." On TV news shows, uniformed students smile into just-delivered computers, and housewives tearfully thank the Leader for new apartments. The media predict even greater triumphs "without fail" for next year. The Juche calendar—which starts with Kim Il Sung's birth year of 1912, from one and not zero—numbers 2011 as year 100, and thus hugely significant.
Yet while posters show soldiers and workers arm in arm, refugees describe a sharp rise in public resentment of an army that often steals from farms and factories to feed itself. Refugees are just as credible when they report of a severe fertilizer shortage. The party has responded by demanding that apartment blocks deliver ever more human waste. Alas, the residents don't eat enough to meet the demand.
Such misery prevailed in the mid-1990s too, but at least then the regime admitted an economic crisis, even as it mostly blamed the Yankees. Now it talks of a country transforming itself from one year to the next. No dictatorship can afford to lie so stupidly to its people, or to raise public expectations that will be dashed in a matter of months.
Unlike the East Germany of old, North Korea lacks the high walls, incorruptible border guards and surveillance technology needed to keep an entire populace in lockdown. Reports of demonstrations against the currency reform may have been exaggerated, but the belated decision to increase the amount of exchangeable currency shows there must have been unrest of some sort. It also indicates that the regime lacks the will to crush it in Tiananmen-style fashion. Kim Jong Il must either find new ways to inspire his people or watch ever more of them cross into China.
But this isn't the only domestic crisis facing the Dear Leader. An increasingly infirm 68 years old (69 according to some outside experts), he is already way behind schedule in preparing his son's takeover. It was hard enough for the masses to accept the last hereditary succession in 1994; the official media must still hammer home the message that the Dear Leader was his father's only choice for the post. It will be infinitely harder to install Kim Jong Eun, who even now could walk down a Pyongyang street without being recognized. So the succession process will have to start in earnest by 2012, just as the "strong and prosperous country" campaign is falling on its face.
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Korean News Service/Reuters
A 2003 propaganda poster depicting North Korea's military power.
How will the regime try to survive this looming "perfect storm" of ideological crises? Likely by seeking to ratchet up some diversionary tension with the outside world. Making this especially probable is the nascent glorification of Kim Jong Eun as a general in his father's image. He thus needs a perceived military triumph of his own. (Kim Jong Il came to power in 1994 as the hero whose show of nuclear resolve had brought Jimmy Carter on a surrender mission to Pyongyang.) Last year's nuclear and ballistic provocations have set the bar higher for the regime, perhaps too high. This is the problem with deriving national pride almost exclusively from a nuclear program: The saber can only be rattled, and rattling gets old.
Whether the leadership opts for a bigger military provocation, and pushes its luck too far, or just tries to muddle through, with an inexorable decline of public support, the outlook for the country's survival has never been bleaker. Regime change? Out of the question. The Kim clan is inextricable with North Korean identity. A homegrown Gorbachev would find it impossible to shift focus from the military to the economy. Why should people toil under the North Korean flag in the hope of attaining a lifestyle that South Koreans enjoyed a quarter-century ago? Why not unify at once, and live in the system that has already proved itself?
In view of all this, one can only hope that the region's main powers are making more serious and thorough preparations for a North Korean regime collapse than they have so far let on. The effort to downplay the relevant contingency planning is of course understandable. It is hard enough for the Americans to get North Korea back to nuclear arms talks without admitting that they are readying for its demise. (Kim Jong Il can't have forgotten that Washington once promised him light-water reactors in the confidence that he wouldn't be around long enough to get them.)
As for the South Korean government, it doesn't want to frighten its own people, who seem reluctant even to discuss the possibility of German-style unification. Leaks about official contingency plans—refugee camps safely removed from Seoul, for example—seem intended to reassure everyone that unification will proceed almost imperceptibly slowly. The Chinese, for their part, have no choice but to deny that the thought of regime collapse in Pyongyang has even crossed their mind.
And yet if Western press reports are any indication, it is Beijing's future role that most troubles American planners. In 2007, a report by the Center for Strategic and International Studies and the U.S. Institute of Peace warned that "if the international community did not react in a timely manner as internal order in North Korea deteriorated rapidly, China would seek to take the initiative in restoring stability.'' The possibility has Seoul worried too.
In reading about these contingency plans, one senses a general optimism that North Korea will not go down fighting. Here, too, as so often in the world's dealings with Pyongyang, there is a strong tendency to extrapolate from late Cold War history—to presume that these "hardline Stalinists" will be rational enough not to do anything suicidal. But this has never been a Stalinist state. The orthodox worldview is a paranoid, race-based nationalism with intellectual roots in fascist Japan.
Related
Downed South Korea Ship Spurs Questions
Since the East Bloc crumbled away in the early 1990s, North Korea has shown its true ideological colors ever more clearly. Last year it even deleted the word communism from the national constitution, elevating "military first" socialism to the country's guiding principle instead. At the same time it has made ever more extensive use of kamikaze terms and slogans ("Let us become human bombs in defense of the leader") taken almost verbatim from Pacific War propaganda. The official media routinely mock the leaders of the old East Bloc for giving up "without firing a shot," and vow that "there can be no world without [North] Korea."
The possibility of a violent, potentially apocalyptic regime collapse in North Korea within the decade is one that all countries with an interest in the region should keep in mind. They should also be more conscious of the internal ideological contradictions that make the country's long-term survival impossible. If North Korea must collapse anyway, it makes no sense for China to prolong things; the leadership will only go out with a bigger bang when the day finally comes. As for Americans, we should focus our contingency planning on a worst-case nuclear scenario instead of fretting about Beijing's role on a post-Kim peninsula. A Chinese occupation of North Korea should be the least of our worries.
— B.R. Myers is a professor at Dongseo University in South Korea and author of "The Cleanest Race."
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Man the situation has to be so tense, cant imagine how people in SK, especialy in Seoul, are feeling currently.
It feels like that North Korea does whatever they want, and nobody can really do anything because of the close proximity that Seoul has to North Korea.
Having thousands of missiles, artillery, and probably a few nuclear bombs aiming at one of the biggest cities in the world, is indeed a very tricky situation. And what makes it tricker, North Korea seems be totally un-reasonable.
Anyways, I have a feeling this won't end pretty.
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Seriously I doubt the wiseness of the politicians who didn't decide to move their capital into major city slightly farther from the NK borders - like Busan - when country split or after the Korean War.
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On April 25 2010 19:32 thedeadhaji wrote:
there was a great article on WSJ about the really dire political situation revolving around NK. It has to do with the government's long standing claim that 2011 (iirc?) would be the year NK would prosper and return to its rightful place among the world powers... or something like that.
Of course, the citizens of the country know how good life is in SK, and are beginning to see through the smoke curtain the NK government has been putting up.
They may be seeing through the smoke and curtains put up by the NK government, but they cant get past the barbed wire, electric fences and mines put up by the NK government that bored the S/N korea border.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
Headline News: Suicide Torpedo Terrorist Suspected Korean NetizenJEEZES FUCKING CHRIST MAN THIS ISNT MODERN WARFARE 2 Korean NetizenKorea's most prestigious newspaper prints out this how low our country has gotten Korean NetizenOUR IMAGINATIONS ARE RUNNING WILDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
MrHoon I just thought of a brilliant idea.
well, not so much, but still.
Shall we make a thread with translated netizen posts of Japanese netizens bashing the koreans and korean netizens bashing the japanese? At the very least it should be fairly LOL if not actually eye-opening. ^^
Of course, I could be starting yet another TL crisis by doing this hahahah
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On April 25 2010 19:21 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 19:20 opFa wrote:
lol southkorea is doomed anyway .... nk got so much artillery ... soul would be wiped out in less then 10 minutes -.-
just a matter of time ... Every major city would be destroyed, yes, but the same would be the case in NK. NK has more "stuff," but SK still has enough pointed at NK to turn both countries 3rd world.
The difference being- NK already is 3rd world.
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![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/MrHoon/APPLE121.jpg)
sheeple who berate n.korea and its "propaganda machine" would do well to behold this.
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On April 25 2010 18:12 Cain0 wrote:
If bush was still in power, he would have plunged everyone into world war 3 over this.
He would first have to find a way out of the paper bag on his head - A battle that has been going on for several decades.
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This is so rough, if it is true that NK did cause the explosion, it's should really be be a pointer that the world needs to do something about them. I don't have any sources or anything, but I recall reading articles on how NK has their own citizens pleading to leave the country at their borders since there is very little food and living standards are so bad. I remember reading they use all the foreign aid money on military when really they should be using it to feed their citizens. RIP, that's a lot of sailors... I'm sure if this happened to a much larger/richer country there would be a war already!
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I blame global warming :>.
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On April 25 2010 20:17 thedeadhaji wrote:
MrHoon I just thought of a brilliant idea.
well, not so much, but still.
Shall we make a thread with translated netizen posts of Japanese netizens bashing the koreans and korean netizens bashing the japanese? At the very least it should be fairly LOL if not actually eye-opening. ^^
Of course, I could be starting yet another TL crisis by doing this hahahah
The korean vs. japanese netizen war is annoying. After the Japanese bashed Kim Yuna the Koreans did some DOS attack or something to a bunch of major servers in Japan or something (I don't really know the technical details). Basically my school lost internet for a day which sucked.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On April 25 2010 21:38 madnessman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 20:17 thedeadhaji wrote:
MrHoon I just thought of a brilliant idea.
well, not so much, but still.
Shall we make a thread with translated netizen posts of Japanese netizens bashing the koreans and korean netizens bashing the japanese? At the very least it should be fairly LOL if not actually eye-opening. ^^
Of course, I could be starting yet another TL crisis by doing this hahahah The korean vs. japanese netizen war is annoying. After the Japanese bashed Kim Yuna the Koreans did some DOS attack or something to a bunch of major servers in Japan or something (I don't really know the technical details). Basically my school lost internet for a day which sucked.
the only recent DDOS war between korea and japan was the 2ch vs DCinside/HumorUniv war
and the only reason why the DDOSing stopped is because DCinside got bored and thought it would be funny to break down HumorUniv.
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Afaik NK officially denied that they had any doing on that.
This is living off for more just because of the need for sensational. It's just like when Kursk went down, there were for weeks "omg USA must be involved in this because they hate russia, now russia may nuke them" in newspapers which was alone creating useless tension in the population.
Right now it's the same thing, probably just an accident but the need for sensational turns it into... sensational! "nk shoots down sk ship, now they will kill all of sk... ah panic panic, world plz nuke nk first, thx"
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why would they shoot random ships, makes no sense.
If they want war, they would just attack and overwhelm them and not shoot a ship and wait to be attacked.
I bet its a mine or some stupid accident noone wants to admit.
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On April 25 2010 20:03 MrHoon wrote:Show nested quote +Headline News: Suicide Torpedo Terrorist Suspected Korean NetizenJEEZES FUCKING CHRIST MAN THIS ISNT MODERN WARFARE 2 Korean NetizenKorea's most prestigious newspaper prints out this how low our country has gotten Korean NetizenOUR IMAGINATIONS ARE RUNNING WILDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
LOL
thats cute hahahahahhaaa, was it ever apparent that N.Korea ever used suicide bombing attacks at all? thats pure epic journalism if this is what the most prestigious newspaper publish...
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On April 25 2010 19:37 haster27 wrote:
Seriously I doubt the wiseness of the politicians who didn't decide to move their capital into major city slightly farther from the NK borders - like Busan - when country split or after the Korean War.
At the time the craziness of NK probably wasn't that obvious yet.
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2ch vs DCInside... yea I can see that happening everyday, especially since Korea and Japan hate each other so much lol.
There is still investigation on wtf happened. But I know Korean President, from hence I'll refer to as an 'idiot' (don't yell at me most of the Koreans hate him anyways), criticized NK for having those fireworks on their original national leader's birthday. I think he was father of Kim Jung-il.
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On April 25 2010 21:51 MrHoon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 21:38 madnessman wrote:On April 25 2010 20:17 thedeadhaji wrote:
MrHoon I just thought of a brilliant idea.
well, not so much, but still.
Shall we make a thread with translated netizen posts of Japanese netizens bashing the koreans and korean netizens bashing the japanese? At the very least it should be fairly LOL if not actually eye-opening. ^^
Of course, I could be starting yet another TL crisis by doing this hahahah The korean vs. japanese netizen war is annoying. After the Japanese bashed Kim Yuna the Koreans did some DOS attack or something to a bunch of major servers in Japan or something (I don't really know the technical details). Basically my school lost internet for a day which sucked. the only recent DDOS war between korea and japan was the 2ch vs DCinside/HumorUniv war and the only reason why the DDOSing stopped is because DCinside got bored and thought it would be funny to break down HumorUniv.
Ah that's too R1CH-like for me to understand. I don't follow the whole war thing but I just remember internet going down for a day at school and people blaming it on the Koreans after Kim Yuna won... It was probably a couple of weeks after the Olympics.
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That suicide torpedo is an amazing idea. Obviously a person's eyes can see better underwater than any other kind of sensor.
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On April 25 2010 20:03 MrHoon wrote:Show nested quote +Headline News: Suicide Torpedo Terrorist Suspected Korean NetizenJEEZES FUCKING CHRIST MAN THIS ISNT MODERN WARFARE 2 Korean NetizenKorea's most prestigious newspaper prints out this how low our country has gotten Korean NetizenOUR IMAGINATIONS ARE RUNNING WILDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Hahahaha, is there source for this or did I miss the link somewhere? :D
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On April 26 2010 23:29 Cloud wrote:
That suicide torpedo is an amazing idea. Obviously a person's eyes can see better underwater than any other kind of sensor.
Don't be ridiculous- what use would 72 virgins be to a sensor ?
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On April 25 2010 18:12 Cain0 wrote:
If bush was still in power, he would have plunged everyone into world war 3 over this.
LOL You live in England go drink your tea kid. You lost to us in the Rev. War. And 80% of are soliders didnt even own a gun. You guys dont know how to hit n run. like a good marine. YOUR COUNTRY FAILLLLLLSSSS. lol you got a ash cloud over your country gtfo
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 27 2010 00:19 YouMake wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 18:12 Cain0 wrote:
If bush was still in power, he would have plunged everyone into world war 3 over this. LOL You live in England go drink your tea kid. You lost to us in the Rev. War. And 80% of are soliders didnt even own a gun. You guys dont know how to hit n run. like a good marine. YOUR COUNTRY FAILLLLLLSSSS. lol you got a ash cloud over your country gtfo
SC2 sure brings out the best people on the interwebz
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On April 27 2010 00:19 YouMake wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 18:12 Cain0 wrote:
If bush was still in power, he would have plunged everyone into world war 3 over this. LOL You live in England go drink your tea kid. You lost to us in the Rev. War. And 80% of are soliders didnt even own a gun. You guys dont know how to hit n run. like a good marine. YOUR COUNTRY FAILLLLLLSSSS. lol you got a ash cloud over your country gtfo
hope you enjoyed your stay....
Anywho, I have a feeling if N.Korea was the culprit behind this, they'd come out and say it because they have the elitist "I don't give a fuck I'll do whatever I want" sort of outlook on the world.
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Man I thought this was over already... I remember KBS making a story about it (a few weeks ago)and how it was probably an accident. Again I might have got it wrong since I barely know any korean...
Also... they might have the elitist attitude mentioned above; however... they're not a terrorist organization that could hide anywhere... I'm sure that even if they did it they wouldn't just outright admit it since that would put them in a very difficult position with all other big countries:
Basically:
NK: Yeah we're shooting down SK's ships for fun
SK: WTF?
Rest of the world: Nothing ain't going down yet..
SK: more WTF? tension rises...
(eventually something stupid happens involving the military)
NK -attacks--> SK
we lose Samsung
rest of the word takes revenge and wipes out NK
Maybe not exactly like that... But NK has very good reasons to deny the attack on that ship. At least for now...
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On April 27 2010 00:19 YouMake wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 18:12 Cain0 wrote:
If bush was still in power, he would have plunged everyone into world war 3 over this. LOL You live in England go drink your tea kid. You lost to us in the Rev. War. And 80% of are soliders didnt even own a gun. You guys dont know how to hit n run. like a good marine. YOUR COUNTRY FAILLLLLLSSSS. lol you got a ash cloud over your country gtfo
You're not welcome here.
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United States42692 Posts
On April 25 2010 18:55 omninmo wrote:Gulf of Tonkin was very likely a false flag charade staged to justify an aggressive invasion of N..Vietnam. Do not jump to conclusions or blame. "What experience and history teach is this: that people and governments never have learned anything from history, or acted on principles deduced from it." GWF Hegel It is surely possible that this was an American S.Korean planted defensive mine. One, convenient way to explain the friendly fire would be to blame N.Korea.
And then use the incident to stage an embarrassing backdown in which war is very notably not declared while secretly leaking the fact that North Korea was able to attack you without any military response. Genius.
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On April 27 2010 00:19 YouMake wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 18:12 Cain0 wrote:
If bush was still in power, he would have plunged everyone into world war 3 over this. LOL You live in England go drink your tea kid. You lost to us in the Rev. War. And 80% of are soliders didnt even own a gun. You guys dont know how to hit n run. like a good marine. YOUR COUNTRY FAILLLLLLSSSS. lol you got a ash cloud over your country gtfo
You're quite the American there.
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On April 25 2010 18:15 BlueRoyaL wrote:
so other than the possibility that it was NK, what else could be the cause of the explosion?
Christ guys, hasn't anyone seen Tomorrow Never Dies?
Elliot Carver, obviously
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On April 25 2010 18:12 Cain0 wrote:
If bush was still in power, he would have plunged everyone into world war 3 over this.
LOL @ Netizens.
North Korea acquired nuclear technologies while Bush was in office supposedly trying to keep Saddam Hussein from getting nuclear technologies. What was Bush's response to North Korea? Nothing.
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man this conflict is starting to worry me. =\
i mean NK is that big bully that we cant do anything about because they have nukes, and we have to be really careful in situations involving them...
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On April 27 2010 07:27 TwilightStar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2010 00:19 YouMake wrote:On April 25 2010 18:12 Cain0 wrote:
If bush was still in power, he would have plunged everyone into world war 3 over this. LOL You live in England go drink your tea kid. You lost to us in the Rev. War. And 80% of are soliders didnt even own a gun. You guys dont know how to hit n run. like a good marine. YOUR COUNTRY FAILLLLLLSSSS. lol you got a ash cloud over your country gtfo You're quite the American there.
I can't tell if he was joking or if some people are actually that stupid/annoying/argh...
To the first comment though: No Bush wouldn't, as there is no profit in invading NK.. 
I really hope SK are the grownups in this issue, which luckily seems like their position of choice.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
I think the situation is quite scary. Even if North Korea shot a torpedo from one of it's submarines. No one wants to do anything about it. The three countries concerned about it, China, South Korea, USA all don't want war. China is wishing that North Korea would stay stable so they don't have to send troops into North Korea to maintain stability and deal with the consequences after that. They also don't want the North Korean regime to fall down because they want a buffer zone against American troops. South Korea doesn't want anything to change either. War with North Korea means that Seoul will get blown up from artillery fire. Then they have to deal with building infrastructure in a 3rd world country + having to educate millions of people who have no experience with the western world.
I think China, USA, and South Korea needs be prepared if the North Korean regime gets unstable. They should plan an surprise attack and bomb the shit out of the North Korean military so they can't attack Seoul. Can't get them kill starcraft and kpop.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 27 2010 08:19 randomKo_Orean wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2010 07:55 T.O.P. wrote:
I think the situation is quite scary. Even if North Korea shot a torpedo from one of it's submarines. No one wants to do anything about it. The three countries concerned about it, China, South Korea, USA all don't want war. China is wishing that North Korea would stay stable so they don't have to send troops into North Korea to maintain stability and deal with the consequences after that. They also don't want the North Korean regime to fall down because they want a buffer zone against American troops. South Korea doesn't want anything to change either. War with North Korea means that Seoul will get blown up from artillery fire. Then they have to deal with building infrastructure in a 3rd world country + having to educate millions of people who have no experience with the western world.
I think China, USA, and South Korea needs be prepared if the North Korean regime gets unstable. They should plan an surprise attack and bomb the shit out of the North Korean military so they can't attack Seoul. Can't get them kill starcraft and kpop. What the hell William? I don't care anyone here says, NK and SK has the same fucking blood. The fucking SK politicians talk about unification without really meaning it -- but before the day I die, I must see Koreas be reunited. I don't care how hard it's gonna get with Koreans suffering for 10 years like Germany, it'll be worth it in the end.
How would you unify Korea? Someone has to start a war for that to happen. A lot of people are gonna die.
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United States42692 Posts
Plus NK simply isn't worth having. It's in a far worse state than East Germany was. The cost of bringing the population of NK up to a respectable living standard would be vast, plus re-educating them so they can function within SK society and get jobs. It's important to realise that NK is basically agrarian whereas East Germany was a functioning country within the Soviet bloc. The problems of NK run way deeper than the problems of East Germany.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
i am not informed enough to make any sort of opinion on this general situation, but i must say the stories and studies of north korea after reunification (i don't know if this is a naive + stupid expectation?) are going to be fascinating, absolutely fascinating for academics
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I was a kid when germany got unified, but i clearly know that without the desire of the people for a change it wouldnt have happened. So i dont really know how the situation between NK and SK people is, but i really hope for this country and wish them only the best.
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On April 27 2010 09:09 intrigue wrote:
i am not informed enough to make any sort of opinion on this general situation, but i must say the stories and studies of north korea after reunification (i don't know if this is a naive + stupid expectation?) are going to be fascinating, absolutely fascinating for academics
Oh no, I totally agree, as an anthropologist I find the idea fascinating, and I don't think its naive at all. As long as the earth isn't made inhospitable, it will be very interesting.
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On April 27 2010 08:19 randomKo_Orean wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2010 07:55 T.O.P. wrote:
I think the situation is quite scary. Even if North Korea shot a torpedo from one of it's submarines. No one wants to do anything about it. The three countries concerned about it, China, South Korea, USA all don't want war. China is wishing that North Korea would stay stable so they don't have to send troops into North Korea to maintain stability and deal with the consequences after that. They also don't want the North Korean regime to fall down because they want a buffer zone against American troops. South Korea doesn't want anything to change either. War with North Korea means that Seoul will get blown up from artillery fire. Then they have to deal with building infrastructure in a 3rd world country + having to educate millions of people who have no experience with the western world.
I think China, USA, and South Korea needs be prepared if the North Korean regime gets unstable. They should plan an surprise attack and bomb the shit out of the North Korean military so they can't attack Seoul. Can't get them kill starcraft and kpop. What the hell William? I don't care anyone here says, NK and SK has the same fucking blood. The fucking SK politicians talk about unification without really meaning it -- but before the day I die, I must see Koreas be reunited. I don't care how hard it's gonna get with Koreans suffering for 10 years like Germany, it'll be worth it in the end.
but this situation with how they separated was so much more different that that of germany =p
itll be reaaaaaaaallllllllllllly long until the koreans come together
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On April 27 2010 09:09 intrigue wrote:
i am not informed enough to make any sort of opinion on this general situation, but i must say the stories and studies of north korea after reunification (i don't know if this is a naive + stupid expectation?) are going to be fascinating, absolutely fascinating for academics
The situation as it is now is already fascinating for economists.
on topic: Are there any definite answers now? Last thing I heard was that the minister of defence said it was a torpedo, while the rest of the government quickly reacted to deny that claim
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The biggest problem with NK is that they have nothing to lose. Their country is absolutely mess with almost nothing to eat, only thing that keeps them together is the strong dictatorship that not allows people talk or do anything. If you do something what the regime doesn't like, you and 3 generations around you are punished, usually put into a concentration camp (the same Germans had) and you are just beaten to death. If you manage to watch a document Kimjongilia / N. C. Heikin - there are interviews with refugees from NK that were imprisoned. That country is the most fucked up thing in the world.
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On April 27 2010 00:19 YouMake wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 18:12 Cain0 wrote:
If bush was still in power, he would have plunged everyone into world war 3 over this. LOL You live in England go drink your tea kid. You lost to us in the Rev. War. And 80% of are soliders didnt even own a gun. You guys dont know how to hit n run. like a good marine. YOUR COUNTRY FAILLLLLLSSSS. lol you got a ash cloud over your country gtfo
User was temp banned for this post.
shut up you scum, did I say that the US is a bad nation, NO. I think that the US is a great nation, its just because of pricks like YOU that sometimes, it can have a bad name. Also, I suggest that you dont call me kid because if you came over here, you would get absolutely batttered, no word of a lie, you wouldnt last a week.
ps: I think its a bit ironic that you told me to go and drink some tea, I am actually drinking a cup of tea while writing this.
User was warned for this post
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Anything to do with the fact that NK is moving ships to the DMZ?
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They aren't letting any of the survivors have visits from anyone including their relatives :x
Saw on korean news that there was a sailor inside who survived for almost a month but died(not sure if this is true.. tried looking it up and couldn't find anything)
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it was a german torpedo, no one knows how nk could get these. maybe someone really wants another korean war
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On May 08 2010 00:10 Qeet wrote:
it was a german torpedo, no one knows how nk could get these. maybe someone really wants another korean war
Is there source for this? That seems like quite an information to come suddenly out of nowhere.
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On May 08 2010 00:13 Hesmyrr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2010 00:10 Qeet wrote:
it was a german torpedo, no one knows how nk could get these. maybe someone really wants another korean war Is there source for this? That seems like quite an information to come suddenly out of nowhere.
Wrong. North Korean Torpedo, developed and made by the North Korean themselves. They sell these to other countries, hoping to make some $$$ off of it.
Speaking of which,
New development:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/19/south.korea.ship/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1
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Vatican City State1650 Posts
Sigh... I can't believe the extent of propaganda Korea is spewing regarding this.
Face this: >50% of the voters in Korea are old and conservative.
In fact, the vote rate of people over 50 or 60 years old reach 90%.
So whenever election time comes, the ruling party in korea right now (who ironically are the descendents of the traitors that sold Korea to Japan and lorded over their own people 60 years ago) always do their hardest to "hype up" the danger that North Korea poses.
This is likely another one of those charades. A Korean equivalent of the midterm elections is coming up within a few days. Anyone with a half a brain and those who can get information from something other than state controlled and sanctioned news outlets KNOWS that it's not North Korea's torpedos. But unfortunately, most such people are young, and know better things to do than to vote on the day off.
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would this war happen already? and this time they dont stop until they get rid of the N korean regime
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On May 20 2010 11:13 orgolove wrote:Anyone with a half a brain and those who can get information from something other than state controlled and sanctioned news outlets KNOWS that it's not North Korea's torpedos. But unfortunately, most such people are young, and know better things to do than to vote on the day off.
I'm sorry, but care to elaborate more on your part, especially the bolded part?
I agree with the midterm elections and everything. But just because that's coming up does not mean that the Korean news media is doing this on purpose. How do we automatically KNOW that it wasn't a North Korean torpedo? Or are you just basing this off the fact that elections are coming up?
If this is the case, you might as well say that September 11th was not a terrorist attack nor the random bombings in Middle East, as well as the economy collapse in Greece and 99% of other things happening around the world.
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They are just trying to provoke. I find the whole situation ironic. South sends aid yet at same time North sinks their ship. They just want to start a war....
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A proclamation that claims to definitively prove whether or not North Korea was involved should be supported by hard evidence. That's all I'm going to say in this matter.
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Well, after the Korean War it was South Korea that never signed the armistice... can they really blame NK? They're technically still at war 
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korea's been helping nk countless times yet they act like spoiled children.
i hope this will lead to the end of northkorea and start a new beginning towards unified korea and reclaim the goguryeo territory (manchuria)
it sickens me how China is claiming goguryeo as their history, i hope they get what they deserve and lose a huge chuck of their land to unified korea.
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ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ;;
Also, North Korea won't die off easily. When the time comes (I think soon), they will try to go out with a final fight.
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Seriously, I don't even know if people in Korea really want reunification anymore, considering how much it'll cost to bring NK up to par with SK.
About manchuria...give it up..that's 2000 years ago.
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I don't like how North Korea can kill people and get away with it without any "real" punishment. This is seriously a fucked up country with nothing to lose.
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article7131533.ece
This just seems so unfair to be quite honest. The good decent countries of the world seem almost powerless to retaliate to aggression because doing so will result in war. The problem is there is no right answer. Ignore it and NK is seen to be able to do whatever the hell it wants. But if you act on it, there's a chance of a full scale war the likes of which haven't been seen since Vietnam.
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On May 20 2010 14:14 meegrean wrote:
I don't like how North Korea can kill people and get away with it without any "real" punishment. This is seriously a fucked up country with nothing to lose.
The US does it all the time...
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CA10828 Posts
On May 20 2010 14:22 stormtemplar wrote:
Is north korea really as much of a threat? From what I hear they are weaker then ever and they were rebuffed in the korean war.
one of the main problems is that they have a bunch of missiles and other powerful weapons within striking range of seoul
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On May 20 2010 14:22 stormtemplar wrote:
Is north korea really as much of a threat? From what I hear they are weaker then ever and they were rebuffed in the korean war.
Seoul is in NK's artillery reach so even though NK's army might not have stealth jet bombers or frigates and all that, simple artillery fire could kill countless innocent civilians. They also have a massive infantry.
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On May 20 2010 14:27 stormtemplar wrote:
Ah. That is a problem. And because we have no excuse to nuke them first, we cant do much. Are there any anti missile missiles?
Sadly, I don't think the Point Defense Drone has been invented yet.
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Not to point any fingers, but the big question (an introspective one) is who wants to restart the conflict between the North and the South. I think there are many people in the East and West who want to settle the score.
Some people don't want to rock the boat of a tenuous peace - but others don't believe in delaying the inevitable and fear NK gets worse by the day.
On May 20 2010 14:33 Weasel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 14:27 stormtemplar wrote:
Ah. That is a problem. And because we have no excuse to nuke them first, we cant do much. Are there any anti missile missiles? Sadly, I don't think the Point Defense Drone has been invented yet.
The American Defense Department has been working on this one for decades, although the funding tends to be lacking.
Also, anti-ballistic missile technology is considered as upsetting to the balance of nuclear arms as the weapons themselves. Any power that can effectively negate ICBMs violates the doctrine of mutually assured destruction.
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On May 20 2010 14:33 Weasel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 14:27 stormtemplar wrote:
Ah. That is a problem. And because we have no excuse to nuke them first, we cant do much. Are there any anti missile missiles? Sadly, I don't think the Point Defense Drone has been invented yet.
There are things like the Patriot missile system, and the Phalanx designed specifically to shoot down incoming missiles, however there isn't any defense again old-fashioned 155mm artillery.
EDIT: I take that back. Apparently, the US Army has been experimenting with land-based Phalanx systems called the Centurion, which has reportedly been successful in shooting down incoming mortar rounds.
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On May 20 2010 14:39 mmp wrote:
Some people don't want to rock the boat of a tenuous peace - but others don't believe in delaying the inevitable and fear NK gets worse by the day.
A possible solution might be to play the waiting game. NK is dealing with a huge starvation crisis since they flood a good percentage of their rice fields when they built some giant dam. The regular citizen has a hard time feeding himself decently. At some point, probably soon, the starvation crisis might reach a critical point where NK would collapse on itself.
Only problem is that during this time they might try to obtain/produce more nuclear missiles.
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Sad thing is, US foreign policy towards NK was set up with the assumption that NK would eventually fall / disintegrate (which is why the US had been on a hostile course of action, particularly in Bush's regime, towards NK) which the obama administration has slightly reversed. It is ironic that obama came into office as Korea pretty much ended its "sunshine policy" of less tensions with north korea for material goods more or less; SK's current president is pretty much on a crash course with reconciliation.
The best way this entire conflict could end would be NK eventually disintegrating... the problem is that the civilians there don't know how bad they have it. One NK refugee that I know that made it to SK told me that he knew that SK was more economically successful than NK, but that seeing Seoul completely smashed his expectations. We need to get an information leak over to them :/
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On May 20 2010 14:54 TuElite wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 14:39 mmp wrote:
Some people don't want to rock the boat of a tenuous peace - but others don't believe in delaying the inevitable and fear NK gets worse by the day. A possible solution might be to play the waiting game. NK is dealing with a huge starvation crisis since they flood a good percentage of their rice fields when they built some giant dam. The regular citizen has a hard time feeding himself decently. At some point, probably soon, the starvation crisis might reach a critical point where NK would collapse on itself. Only problem is that during this time they might try to obtain/produce more nuclear missiles.
The waiting game has been played for decades. Unfortunately people will suffer whether you wait or not.
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On May 20 2010 14:54 TuElite wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 14:39 mmp wrote:
Some people don't want to rock the boat of a tenuous peace - but others don't believe in delaying the inevitable and fear NK gets worse by the day. A possible solution might be to play the waiting game. NK is dealing with a huge starvation crisis since they flood a good percentage of their rice fields when they built some giant dam. The regular citizen has a hard time feeding himself decently. At some point, probably soon, the starvation crisis might reach a critical point where NK would collapse on itself. Only problem is that during this time they might try to obtain/produce more nuclear missiles.
Good theory, except North Korea is a military regime, and they have tight control of their civilians. When famine hits, the only thing that will happen is people will die, and nothing will change. As it already demonstrated in 1997. It would simply too inhumain and other country will start shipping food to them like all this time.
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just to add to the news. I believe Korean scientists have found evidence that strongly suggests that the explosion was in fact due to a torpedo.
North Korea. What a fucked up dictatorship. Pursue nuclear weapons to gain world presence, threaten war with a neighboring country that is trying just to play SC in peace. Those bastards.
In related news, I'm terrified about this transition of power from Kim Jong Il to one of his sons. If his son turns out to be even more delirious than his father... South Korea is in trouble.
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On May 20 2010 14:15 ComusLoM wrote:
there's a chance of a full scale war the likes of which haven't been seen since Vietnam.
What.
I've tried not to get angry at this thread, but seriously, Vietnam was not a "full scale war."
The Vietnam War can't be in any way compared to the current international tension happening right now. It would be like comparing the Falklands to the Spanish-American War.
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A North Korean defence spokesman said the country would "respond to reckless countermeasure with an all-out war of justice", the state KCNA news agency reported.
Sounds a bit discerning.
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On April 25 2010 18:26 Alethios wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 18:12 Cain0 wrote:
If bush was still in power, he would have plunged everyone into world war 3 over this. Ok man. Bush bad. Got it.
Doesn't sound like you do.
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On May 20 2010 15:20 furymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 14:54 TuElite wrote:On May 20 2010 14:39 mmp wrote:
Some people don't want to rock the boat of a tenuous peace - but others don't believe in delaying the inevitable and fear NK gets worse by the day. A possible solution might be to play the waiting game. NK is dealing with a huge starvation crisis since they flood a good percentage of their rice fields when they built some giant dam. The regular citizen has a hard time feeding himself decently. At some point, probably soon, the starvation crisis might reach a critical point where NK would collapse on itself. Only problem is that during this time they might try to obtain/produce more nuclear missiles. Good theory, except North Korea is a military regime, and they have tight control of their civilians. When famine hits, the only thing that will happen is people will die, and nothing will change. As it already demonstrated in 1997. It would simply too inhumain and other country will start shipping food to them like all this time.
Pretty much. When an internal uprising or mass protest begins in any dictatorship, there are always two key decision points. The success or failure of the entire revolution depends on the answer.
1. Is the leadership willing to order security forces to fire on and kill the protestors?
* A. Yes. Go to question 2.
* B. No. For whatever reason they won't give the orders, like the Shah of Iran way back when. Odds are regime change shortly follows.
2. Are the security forces willing to obey orders and open fire on crowds of unarmed protestors?
* A. Yes. Many people are killed and the protests are bloodily put down. The attempted revolt fails, possibly at the cost of some internal legitimacy if the regime still had any.
* B. No. Security forces mutiny and refuse to shoot into crowds. At this point, the regime is doomed and its leaders flee the country or are captured.
In the modern era I don't think there has ever, ever been a mass revolution in which largely unarmed or lightly armed dissidents successfully wrested control from security forces willing to use deadly force to retain power. North Korea has a HUGE internal security apparatus with the guns, the food, and the knowledge that they'll be first against the wall after the revolution. If there's going to be any sort of regime change it's not going to come from the starving masses, but from a general or govt administrator leading a coup with the backing of part of the army or security service.
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On May 20 2010 15:30 Tankbusta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 14:15 ComusLoM wrote:
there's a chance of a full scale war the likes of which haven't been seen since Vietnam. What. I've tried not to get angry at this thread, but seriously, Vietnam was not a "full scale war." The Vietnam War can't be in any way compared to the current international tension happening right now. It would be like comparing the Falklands to the Spanish-American War.
did you just compare korea to the falklands?
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On May 20 2010 15:47 omfghi2u2 wrote:Show nested quote +A North Korean defence spokesman said the country would "respond to reckless countermeasure with an all-out war of justice", the state KCNA news agency reported. Sounds a bit discerning.
I think you meant "disconcerting."
They're at a point where everything is invested in the military and their economy couldn't withstand additional sanctions (insult upon injury, really). Given this tradeoff, I wouldn't take statements like this as empty threats.
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On May 20 2010 15:55 jacen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 15:30 Tankbusta wrote:On May 20 2010 14:15 ComusLoM wrote:
there's a chance of a full scale war the likes of which haven't been seen since Vietnam. What. I've tried not to get angry at this thread, but seriously, Vietnam was not a "full scale war." The Vietnam War can't be in any way compared to the current international tension happening right now. It would be like comparing the Falklands to the Spanish-American War. did you just compare korea to the falklands?
no i dont think he did
on topic: what were NK thinking! murdering fellow koreans is very sad, but also very stupid... what the fuck are they trying to accomplish? being the most hated country or something lol...
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United States42692 Posts
On May 20 2010 16:05 eSen1a wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 15:55 jacen wrote:On May 20 2010 15:30 Tankbusta wrote:On May 20 2010 14:15 ComusLoM wrote:
there's a chance of a full scale war the likes of which haven't been seen since Vietnam. What. I've tried not to get angry at this thread, but seriously, Vietnam was not a "full scale war." The Vietnam War can't be in any way compared to the current international tension happening right now. It would be like comparing the Falklands to the Spanish-American War. did you just compare korea to the falklands? no i dont think he did on topic: what were NK thinking! murdering fellow koreans is very sad, but also very stupid... what the fuck are they trying to accomplish? being the most hated country or something lol...
The man is dying. He probably wants a funeral pyre.
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Well, looks like I might be postponing that summer trip to South Korea...
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United States42692 Posts
While China is willing to prop up NK nothing will change. And China likes their buffer zone, even if it is paid for in the currency of NK famine deaths. It's a purely pragmatic decision but tbh it might actually be good for world stability that China is doing it. Sucks for NK and SK but a direct border between China and the west could be tricky.
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On May 20 2010 15:30 Tankbusta wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 14:15 ComusLoM wrote:
there's a chance of a full scale war the likes of which haven't been seen since Vietnam. What. I've tried not to get angry at this thread, but seriously, Vietnam was not a "full scale war." The Vietnam War can't be in any way compared to the current international tension happening right now. It would be like comparing the Falklands to the Spanish-American War.
edit: disregard this, I have a misconception about full-scale war.
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People saying "what does NK have to lose? they may just go ahead attack south" are taking video games to serious, this ain't starcraft and the purpose isn't to defeat the "other player".
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This means absolutely nothing, China had control over that territory 10 times longer than korea did. And besides, only Korea has been complaining that this area is "part of their history," as proven by your previous post.
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synapse let's not get nationalistic here. (stares)
North Korea is dying off in every way possible. Money, food, etc. etc.
Will they disappear? Someday soon, yes.
Will they go out easily? No... They will try to put up a war against South Korea in last ditch effort.
One way or another, if reunification doesn't come soon, war will come first. And due to recent events, I don't see reunification happening anytime soon.
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On May 20 2010 23:23 Pika Chu wrote:
People saying "what does NK have to lose? they may just go ahead attack south" are taking video games to serious, this ain't starcraft and the purpose isn't to defeat the "other player".
But kim jong il is such a fool that he's probably angry with the fact he has a huge toy army and nothing to play with.
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On May 20 2010 14:54 TuElite wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 14:39 mmp wrote:
Some people don't want to rock the boat of a tenuous peace - but others don't believe in delaying the inevitable and fear NK gets worse by the day. A possible solution might be to play the waiting game. NK is dealing with a huge starvation crisis since they flood a good percentage of their rice fields when they built some giant dam. The regular citizen has a hard time feeding himself decently. At some point, probably soon, the starvation crisis might reach a critical point where NK would collapse on itself. Only problem is that during this time they might try to obtain/produce more nuclear missiles.
i highly doubt this because they would most likely start a war before it gets that bad. as it stands, who the government really needs to feed, the army and security forces are well supplied but because their economy is horrible, the regular people starve. but the regular people aren't the people who can hold the government together, its the 1 million man brainwashed army that does. seriously if there is a real life thing of "resocialization" like in starcraft where they brainwash marines, its the North Koreans who are doing it. lol.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/MrHoon/APPLE121.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://altaic-wiki.wikispaces.com/file/view/goguryeo.jpg/58901052/goguryeo.jpg)
